00:00 Well Ron we're here to talk about your memories of living through the war years in Sunderland.
00:04 Yes.
00:05 Which you did, you were a young lad who grew up throughout that period.
00:09 What's your earliest memory of the war years?
00:13 I was six when the war started and 12 when I'd finished.
00:18 But six year old, my father was drafted to work at Vickers Armstrong's.
00:27 He wasn't signed up into the forces.
00:30 Being a skilled time served fitter he was drafted to Vickers Armstrong's making munitions.
00:39 And that's the earliest he was working all the time.
00:48 He was also a warden.
00:52 I don't know whether he was a warden or a fire watcher but he was issued with his tin helmet.
00:57 And when he wasn't at work he was out at night time fire watching.
01:03 And that was because of the incendiary bombs?
01:07 Yes.
01:08 Yeah.
01:08 Yeah which were very dangerous.
01:11 And I know that you remember some of the incidents of the air raids over Sunderland.
01:18 Sorry, the what?
01:20 You remember some of the air raids that happened over Sunderland?
01:22 Oh yes, yeah.
01:24 One of our play areas was Gunsfield.
01:31 That's the farmer gun, G-U-N-N.
01:33 There were a couple of anti-aircraft gun emplacements on there.
01:41 And obviously we were manned by soldiers.
01:46 We used to play on that area.
01:52 And of course if there was a raid the anti-aircraft guns were shooting at the planes.
01:58 And what went up had to come down again.
02:01 It was more dangerous to walk about during a raid because of the shrapnel from the guns
02:07 than it was from the bombs.
02:08 A piece of shrapnel, quite a big one, came through our roof.
02:15 It came through the tiles, through the ceiling and landed on the bathroom floor.
02:22 And it was quite a big one.
02:23 When there was a raid on, or I should say when a raid had finished,
02:29 the lads of the square, the square I lived in, was 30 houses.
02:33 We used to go out hunting for the biggest piece of shrapnel amongst the lads.
02:41 See, who's got the biggest piece?
02:42 Because there was some big pieces.
02:46 Yeah.
02:46 So I mean as a young lad, was it a time,
02:50 I suppose it's a bit different for an adult back then, it would have been worry.
02:54 As a young lad I think you've said before that you just thought it was a big adventure.
02:59 It was, it was just so much fun.
03:01 It was something that will occupy us.
03:04 We're never worried about anything like that, not at my age.
03:11 It was a great time really.
03:17 So when the shrapnel came through the house,
03:20 were you all out, were you all in a shelter or were you in the house?
03:24 In the shelter.
03:24 The air raids themselves worsened in 1943.
03:32 And it reached a stage where it was pointless going to bed.
03:37 We just went straight into the air raid shelter because you knew very well there would be a raid.
03:46 My father had a, it was an armless shelter I should explain.
03:50 And he had it boarded out, there was a double bunk there for my mother and father and a single one for me.
03:58 And we just slept in there.
04:01 Usually the raids went on for a few hours.
04:06 So did you get much sleep?
04:09 Not a lot.
04:13 What was the noise like when that was coming down?
04:16 Tremendous.
04:17 Yeah.
04:18 Yeah.
04:20 Yes, very noisy.
04:24 And there must have been of course a worry that is it going to land on you or is it going to,
04:30 could you tell if it was close?
04:32 My mother and father obviously were worried about that sort of thing.
04:35 But it was just a passing time, never worried about it.
04:43 Yeah.
04:43 Did you look out? Did you watch?
04:46 Oh no.
04:46 Once in the shelter there was a door on it, it was closed and wait until the sirens went all clear.
04:54 Yeah.
04:54 But I do know that you do have memories of one night when you saw
04:58 parts of Sunderland burning in the distance.
05:02 Yes.
05:04 I remember the garden that we had with the house was big.
05:08 There were five gardens against ours.
05:12 It was a corner house.
05:13 And my father's there being a watcher or warden, whatever he was,
05:21 drew my attention, we looked over the back garden towards the town
05:27 and that was the King's Theatre going up in flames.
05:30 And you could see it, miles away.
05:33 The flames shooting up into the sky.
05:35 Yeah.
05:37 And another part of the war of course was rationing.
05:43 That must have been an interesting experience.
05:46 It didn't worry me.
05:47 My mother kept me well fed.
05:52 Yeah.
05:52 She had the worry of the rationing.
05:58 And the women of the street used to get together and there was a barter system.
06:05 Those that had little or more used to do a bit of swap around.
06:11 Yeah.
06:11 Because you used to get so much on your ration didn't you?
06:14 So presumably...
06:16 At one time very little really, very little.
06:19 Yeah.
06:20 And this book here, which is excellent,
06:24 relates every day throughout the war what happened.
06:30 And has the rationing in it.
06:32 Even has the football scoring.
06:34 Because Roker Park was bombed wasn't it?
06:38 Oh yes.
06:39 I got to know Roker Park later on.
06:44 I was certainly a gate man.
06:46 Yeah.
06:46 But then of course as the war went on,
06:50 you would have grown used to what was happening.
06:53 And it developed to the point where we got to things like D-Day.
06:58 Do you remember that at all?
07:00 Not really.
07:01 There was no celebration for D-Day because the war virtually
07:06 had come to an important point where they invaded Normandy.
07:12 Nothing was done really until we reached VE-Day,
07:17 or Victory in Europe.
07:19 But D-Day wasn't recognised at all really.
07:22 But presumably it had been talked about for a while,
07:27 you know, was it going to happen?
07:29 Oh yes, yes.
07:31 I mean I've read that Eisenhower was then in charge.
07:38 And he set a date and then it was delayed because of the weather.
07:45 But from radio they kept in contact with what was happening.
07:50 Yes.
07:50 My father liked to know.
07:51 Yeah, so you'd have been gathered around the radio.
07:54 Yeah.
07:54 Was it a certain time of day when things came up?
07:59 I don't know, I can't remember that bit.
08:01 Yeah.
08:01 But you do remember VE-Day?
08:05 Oh yes.
08:06 My father had a big radiogram with lots of records.
08:13 And he took it outside, put it in the front garden,
08:16 and played it loud.
08:19 Not the ideal service for dancing, concrete.
08:24 But everybody in the street and in the square I should say,
08:28 was out dancing.
08:30 It was something to celebrate.
08:32 After six years it was worth celebrating.
08:37 Yeah, and of course you'd have been quite a bit older than when you first went into war.
08:42 At the top of the square where I was, was a gas lamp.
08:46 Because of course when the square was built it wasn't ...
08:53 electricity wasn't common.
08:57 When my mother and father moved in, in 1931,
09:01 they were given the option of either the normal gas lighting or this new electric.
09:10 The lamp post outside was a gas lamp.
09:13 You had a lamp light that used to come round at night,
09:16 switch it on, round again in the morning, switch it off.
09:20 There was a table at the top like this on the lamp post.
09:26 And we used to put a rope round it and could swing round the lamp post.
09:30 We had all sorts of computers, no such thing.
09:36 We made our own amusement.
09:38 Yeah.
09:39 And quite happy.
09:41 Yeah.
09:42 Quite happy.
09:43 Yeah.
09:43 And of course night times would have been blackout.
09:46 Yes.
09:46 You wouldn't have been able to do anything.
09:49 Yeah.
09:50 What was day time like?
09:52 Did you still go to school?
09:53 Yes.
09:54 I was at Hilton Road School.
09:58 It was quite a walk.
10:01 I could never understand.
10:03 Ford Halverlock School was closer but I was sent to Hilton Road which was quite a walk.
10:12 But we were there.
10:14 The only time when we weren't there was when they were digging up the school playground
10:19 to put in the area shelters.
10:20 There was infants, juniors and seniors school there.
10:26 Infants and juniors went into the area shelter in their school grounds.
10:31 The seniors had to walk up to the football ground in Hilton Road.
10:36 So the war came to an end and there would have been celebration then to know it was all over.
10:44 Yes.
10:46 But rationing went on.
10:47 Well I helped organise a scout camp down at Whidbey.
10:54 And in 1952 I still had to collect the ration books in of the lads
11:00 to be able to get the meat from the local butcher.
11:02 And that was 1952.
11:05 Still rationing.
11:06 It shows you the extent that it affected the world.
11:10 The country itself was near bankrupt because of the war.
11:13 Yes.
11:14 But for you, as you remember, you were a young lad.
11:19 Oh yes, yes.
11:20 Still enjoy my life.
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