00:00 I just want to put a little bit and ask about your your background, your experience, extensive experience in by call criminal defense.
00:05 And this this idea of the gag order did take the judge a little while to make a determination.
00:10 He found I think it was nine counts.
00:13 He violated the gag order nine to Trump.
00:14 Former President Trump violated the gag order nine times.
00:17 One thousand dollars for each violation.
00:19 There's another hearing, I believe, today on additional violations by Trump of this gag order.
00:25 In fact, well, after this ruling by the judge on Tuesday, the initial ruling on the gag order, the violations, Trump was at a at a rally and I believe called him a crooked judge.
00:36 So this is sort of a continuing it's a continuing pattern that's gone on for a long time, including, I believe, today.
00:41 Even he might have said something about E.J. Carroll.
00:43 He'd already been found in violation and defamed her.
00:48 Is there any way to a control this situation in a criminal court by President Trump specifically, President Trump specifically, and then be what happens normally when these sorts of violations take place?
01:02 Those are both excellent questions, Leanne.
01:05 I'll take the I'll take them in reverse order, the normal there's nothing normal about this situation.
01:11 Normally, when a defendant violates conditions of release, let alone a gag order, they are stepped back.
01:19 They are they're held in jail until the trial is concluded.
01:23 It is not normal for for serial violations, court orders, judges orders to occur with no consequences.
01:31 I've had plenty of cases when I was a prosecutor where defendants were released on bond and were stepped back either pre or during trial because they violated judges orders.
01:41 So the fact that Trump has gotten away with this, this level of intransigence today is is without any precedent that I'm aware of in terms of what to do.
01:52 It's a really, really hard issue.
01:55 And, you know, before Judge Marchand, Judge Kaplan struggled with it, Judge Angoran struggled with it.
02:02 And Trump sort of perceives in a feral, intuitive way that judges can't control them.
02:08 You know, he is a Republican nominee. He is a former president.
02:13 And he knows he knows he's not really there's no chance he's going to get stepped back and held in jail.
02:19 And he knows that even if that were to happen, it would play to his benefit.
02:23 He would then be a martyr. He would be hugely sympathetic.
02:26 He'd be able to fundraise, you know, even even more than he has off of his mugshot, things like that.
02:32 So I believe Judge Kaplan even made reference to that, that that would be the best thing to happen.
02:38 So in some ways, Judge Marchand would be playing in his hands by remanding him into custody.
02:43 So what can they do? They can fine him and and and little else.
02:49 Unfortunately, it's a hole in our system. He should not be allowed to get away with violating judicial orders.
02:55 You know, and he's trying to thread the needle right now on attacking the judge and and and, you know,
03:03 and sort of people not named in the four corners of the gag order.
03:06 But, you know, he continues to get away with it and he continues to make a mockery of the judge's orders.
03:12 And it's really unfortunate. Yeah, it was interesting.
03:15 I believe his attorneys were asking the judge if he could preview what Trump might want to say next.
03:20 And the judge is like, you should you should advise your client to really just stay away from doing this.
03:24 But again, there's no way for the attorney. The attorneys have proved unable to sort of control his behavior.
03:29 And, you know, they raise constitutional issues. First Amendment.
03:33 But as you mentioned. It's easy for him to get away for things because of who he is compared to regular defendants in these situations.
03:42 Yeah. And because he won't, you know, he in some ways I made it hard to imagine he'd really love being in jail.
03:49 Nobody that I know of who spent time there loves that.
03:51 But I think he loves the idea of being a martyr and raising money off that.
03:56 That's that's something that he understands and played very well with his committed followers.
04:03 And he and the judges know that, too. And so there's there's a sort of game of chicken going on there.
04:09 Yeah, it's a fine line as to how to deal with this. And it's all been fascinating viewing as well.
04:15 So I really appreciate you giving your analysis.
04:18 You're very informed and astute analysis of what's going on in this case.
04:23 And for joining me this afternoon.
