00:00 In the Supreme Court, six judges of the Islamabad High Court
00:05 had their proceedings and we had to see where the Supreme Court would take this case.
00:10 There was a lot of debate.
00:13 Athar Manila said that he has read the letters of three high courts.
00:16 He is not saying that there are no pressures.
00:19 In fact, everyone is saying that there are pressures.
00:21 Every high court has said that there are pressures.
00:24 The people of Balochistan started this with a beautiful poetry and quotes.
00:30 These are the letters that have been given by the Islamabad High Court and other courts.
00:38 Please tell us what kind of interference is there?
00:42 The Chief Justice pointed to internal interference.
00:49 How does the Supreme Court interfere internally?
00:57 If you want a true independent court,
00:59 then the civil judge in Makran should be as powerful as the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
01:03 How dare the Chief Justice of Pakistan interfere in his working?
01:06 When we devise mechanisms for interference, such as monitoring judges,
01:11 that is undermining the independence of the judiciary.
01:13 When we mandate the role of intelligence agencies by constituting JITs,
01:18 which are not provided for any law other than ATC laws,
01:22 we undermine the independence of the judiciary.
01:24 We should also call about self accountability within the judiciary.
01:28 And has there not been?
01:29 He himself mentioned the interference.
01:32 And he was absolutely right that not only the pressures come from outside, but also from within.
01:36 In this debate, it also came to light that the pressures from outside are seen,
01:41 but the pressures from within are to be handled by the judges themselves.
01:43 Athar Minnala has mentioned this campaign against Babur Sattar several times.
01:49 How was that data released from the government?
01:52 And a very bad campaign is going on against Babur Sattar.
02:00 Since the last hearing, what has happened to a judge of the Islamabad High Court,
02:05 his personal data, which cannot be accessed by a private person, was put on the social media.
02:11 Even his green card was mentioned.
02:13 And he was opposed by the judges from within and from outside because he was independent.
02:19 It is the external, the state, is to protect the judges and independence of judiciary.
02:24 When it becomes the aggressor, which each High Court is saying.
02:29 State becomes the aggressor.
02:31 If the state becomes the aggressor, if we could complete this sentence,
02:35 then he said that if the state or its organs, later he said,
02:39 if they become aggressive, then no one can stand in front of them.
02:44 The Prime Minister and the government should also be blamed for this interference.
02:50 The government is responsible for this.
02:54 The agencies are under the control of the executive of the Prime Minister.
02:58 If they are doing something, the Prime Minister and his cabinet are responsible.
03:02 How can they say, rules of business, constitution, they are not something independent.
03:07 Mansoor Ali Shah did a very interesting thing sitting on the bench.
03:14 This is the kind of conversation that all our guests, our friends are sitting.
03:19 Maybe we do this kind of conversation every day or very frequently,
03:24 this conversation happens with us too.
03:28 Why is it, put this phone there, put this phone there, put the phone there and talk.
03:32 Come here, talk there, don't sit in this room, come out of that room and talk.
03:36 Someone will hear this, the phone will be switched off.
03:38 What kind of a state are we running?
03:39 That I have to put my phone away, I cannot talk to anybody.
03:42 Something can happen in this room, something can happen in that room.
03:44 What kind of a culture is this?
03:45 That I am scared all the time that somebody is recording me, somebody is watching me.
03:49 What is now 1984 George Orwell's "The Big Brother is Watching"?
03:52 What is going on?
03:56 With us, we have with us, Mr. Mustafa Nawaz Koki, Mr. Hafiz Ahsan, Mr. Abu Zafar Salman Niazi.
04:02 Thank you very much, all three guests.
04:03 We have with us, Mr. Mohsin Shah Nawaz Ranjha from Muslim League Moon.
04:06 There is also a political aspect to this, which we will try to see.
04:10 The political aspect is that what role does a politician play in all this?
04:16 If you have to send a reference against a judge, if it is in someone's bad books,
04:20 then who becomes its best employee?
04:22 A politician.
04:23 How does a politician put up pictures of judges in the sessions?
04:27 What do you do with them? You know that too.
04:29 And the letter written by the judges of Islamabad High Court, or other judges,
04:34 the thing that the judges of Peshawar High Court said, I want you all to hear this too.
04:39 When Attorney General was reading, that first there was pressure,
04:43 after that, threats came from the side of non-state actors in Afghanistan.
04:47 What did Attorney General say? Listen.
04:50 Some of the participants, judges have expressed and shared their trauma,
04:53 which they underwent due to interference by the intelligence agencies,
04:57 when some political cases came up for hearing before the bench,
05:00 which was presided over by them.
05:02 They have also complained about the direct approach to them,
05:04 by the members of intelligence agencies seeking favor in decision of political cases.
05:09 However, when the matter was decided impartially,
05:11 they received light threats through non-state actors from the neighboring country, Afghanistan.
05:16 The matter was also discussed with the counter-terrorism department with no progress.
05:19 with no progress.
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