00:00 There's a revolution in my science to natural sciences and
00:04 I think COVID for many people has destroyed the reputation of science. Yes
00:11 Well, that's what happens when see
00:13 Because we haven't segregated out the religious and the political properly the political has become religious
00:19 And so now science is being drawn into the fray follow the science
00:22 The science does not tell you where to go. In fact, it's specifically designed not to do that
00:28 Right in its purest form science is a value free enterprise now
00:33 It can't be because you have to select the objects of study, right?
00:36 But having done that it's supposed to be as value free as possible
00:41 Which means that in some sense technically it is directionless
00:45 and so then when you hijack the science and you say this is what it tells us to do you
00:51 Politicize and you even make religious the science. Well, then people think well, I don't trust your politics or maybe your religion
00:58 Now I don't trust science. Well, that's not helpful at all. And part of that's abdication of responsibility
01:05 It's like the scientists aren't politicians. They can't balance the risks
01:09 It's like, you know, there are things we could do to make us safer from COVID in the short term
01:14 I presume maybe but what about the medium term and what about the long term?
01:18 and what about all the other issues the economic issues and the loneliness and the suicide and the breakdown of families and the
01:24 isolation and the theft of years from young people's lives
01:28 Well, that's a political issue and the science does not tell us what to do with that at all ever and to say that it is
01:35 Is to abdicate your responsibility and also to claim for your own beliefs all the virtues of science
01:42 You know, I've been saying that when you mix medicine and politics you get politics, right?
01:48 exactly, and I did a session actually it was a Vatican event and
01:52 I
01:54 Had a bunch of religious leaders who all happen to be doctors
01:57 And I asked them if they had been involved in any of these discussions. Mm-hmm and
02:03 I would have thought there'd be enough humbleness within politics or political leaders
02:08 I'll say that you would crutch a little bit on
02:11 belief systems that might actually influence how people saw the world when you're dealing with a
02:15 crisis like Kovu where you don't have all the answers and
02:18 That's not what happened
02:20 When decisions were made to shut down churches or to make a value judgment as you point out that scientists didn't have enough data on
02:26 You want to consult science?
02:28 But you don't want science making those decisions can't what that's not our that's not the day job
02:32 We're trained to make and then there became an an arrogant reliance on
02:37 What the science showed even though it was still a rapidly evolving process
02:42 And I think that's what's led to the dramatic it is a number of people who've refused back
02:47 See, of course it is so lots of people and they say all right, I'd take the vaccine except you're making me
02:52 It's like are you wrong? It's like I don't know. Are you wrong?
02:55 So what's more dangerous the government or the virus?
02:57 Well, it's a virus. It's well, that's because you are temperamentally inclined to believe in the solutions of government, but those other people aren't
03:05 And you're not they're not wrong
03:07 Because governments are dangerous, too
03:11 So there's no doubt that that's happening and it is going to cause widespread
03:15 Disaffection with science the climate issue is exactly the same thing
03:19 The science says follow the science follow the science or you're ignorant
03:24 follow
03:26 the science
03:28 That's your philosophy of science. Is it?
03:30 Are you sure it's the science we're following
03:34 and not your wish to allow your political beliefs with the science and
03:38 To prove that you're right with all the might of the scientific enterprise behind you
03:43 So how does that translate in the practice? You're the leader of our country?
03:47 You've got a virus coming your way. You see a communist country take a pretty draconian stance on it
03:53 and seem to have success, but you don't know because you don't know if what you're hearing is right and
03:57 All the scientists are telling you go right and no one's saying go left. So what's the rational approach?
04:05 Which is perhaps different from the right approach at the individual level it's
04:12 Try to clear your mind of unnecessary
04:15 Preoccupations and do what your conscience tells you and then we all have to talk. I
04:22 Don't know what the right move forward is. No, that's the right move the right strategy
04:27 I if there was a right move, I would hope you've told us I'm actually arguing for a a process a
04:34 Way of which is what you're so good at a way of understanding what the real questions are
04:38 well
04:39 I think part of what we have to contend with is the fact that if you have to force people to take medical action then
04:44 Your arguments were insufficient and that's your fault
04:48 If you can't entice people into that then you failed and you should examine
04:52 Reasons for your failure instead of increasing the force with which you're applying your arguments, you know
04:57 And I think it was maybe something like in Canada particularly because we had enough facts have enough vaccines for everyone. It's like
05:03 Here are the vaccines you have a choice. We think they work. We don't know everything about them, but they seem to work
05:10 You can get them whenever you want because you all you have to just go to your drugstore
05:15 We've made it as easy as it's possible to make it we're gonna open everything up
05:19 You take your chances after that and we hope that you protect yourself the way you see fit
05:23 And if you don't and you get sick, we'll still take care of you
05:26 Something like that I think
05:29 It's certainly not well, you know those anti-vaxxers to get what they deserve if they get sick
05:34 It's not that that's for sure and forcing people to take medical action
05:38 I mean, I know this is a complicated debate, but I don't see it. I
05:43 See it causing more problems than it's going to surprise at how
05:46 Easily so many gave up
05:49 their
05:51 rights to decide for themselves and
05:54 likewise the number of people who are
05:58 Absolutely resistant to moving forward even when there is a fair amount of data supporting for example that getting a vaccine
06:04 You know, probably long term least short term. I'll say probably your best interest. Mm-hmm. Those groups seem pretty steeled
06:11 Well, I think it's a reflection of all the underlying political problems that we've been discussing
06:15 It's just manifesting itself in this particular crisis, you know with regards to the initial lockdowns
06:20 It's a herd move in some sense. It's like there's a chaos in crisis. What is this endemic this pandemic how serious it is?
06:28 well, the Chinese moved first, it's like
06:30 One animal got spooked and we all followed in the midst of this crisis and you know, that's understandable
06:36 I think and but then there's time for sober secondary reflection. It's like oh, yeah. What about our civil liberties? Yeah. Yeah. What about them?
06:44 the anger against people who rethought that first step just seemed
06:49 Dramatically more than I as a scientist would have expected in part because I realized the science wasn't as solid you couldn't be arrogantly
06:57 Criticizing a country's effort to do their best for their citizens
07:02 Based on the science right this happened. For example with Sweden
07:06 I'm not even gonna judge whether it was the right thing or the wrong thing
07:07 But you know to my view and as a scientist the more different ways people try right?
07:12 Well, that's a process isn't it is to allow for variability in the response and then to evaluate that is what scientists do
07:19 Yes, it was a suffocation of that process which caught me off guard
07:22 That strike you at just as a student as a student of the world we live in
07:27 Well, I do think it's it's predictable in some sense given our current political situation
07:32 It's it's it's the contamination of politics with religious
07:36 With what should be religious presuppositions and that intensifies everything to a tremendous degree
07:42 and a hundred years ago when
07:45 There was a boom after the Spanish influenza. Mm-hmm, which led to in some countries
07:51 Or at least it was at the time when the Soviets took charge
07:57 Communism in Russia and ten years later, you know, actually Nazis were already rising in 20s
08:01 But you know ten years later with Hitler could truly come into power
08:03 There were experiments done which are seems similar to what's happening now in some parts of the world including here
08:10 Now those lessons don't seem to have been remembered very well, yeah, well opponents to
08:16 this insistence upon a certain course of medical treatment
08:21 You know, they have those sorts of things in mind and those are the people who are perhaps more afraid of governmental overreach than of the virus itself
08:29 You know, there's an app I discussed with John Anderson who was the deputy prime minister of Australia several decades ago during a very effective administration
08:38 He's a very solid person in my estimation
08:40 You know, we talked about that app
08:43 They have in Australia that enables you to take a photograph of yourself and specify your location to the authorities
08:49 It's like it is by no means obvious that that app is less dangerous than the virus
08:53 So
08:57 Now, you know you point that out and people get mad because they you're in some sense
09:01 You're forcing them to rethink things and that's really annoying people hate that once they've made a decision
09:06 They hate having to rethink it and no wonder and then there's all these
09:10 Underground issues that are happening. So you your objection gets tossed into the bass, you know
09:16 the bad mouth things of the basket of deplorables, let's say
09:19 so
09:21 We can't have a we can't have an uncondemnated discussion of this. I
09:25 Don't know if was as accidental as sometimes it seems and Stalin's real name wasn't Stalin right?
09:31 Stalin means the man of steel he picked on purpose and he never believed in convincing people
09:37 He believed in tempering people. That's what a steel man does you temper the steel?
09:42 Yeah, Mao believed that you would condition people so they would naturally think
09:47 What you think they should think so you don't have to bother convincing them
09:51 I think a lot of people who are resistant are fearful that the people of our countries are being conditioned to think
09:58 Yeah, that's right. They're afraid of the underlying
10:00 Ever-present totalitarian impulse sure that that's what they're afraid of. Yeah, it's not even the government because if you know, I
10:05 Almost sudden right now. There was a draconian government that came into power people would revolt
10:10 but a few years from now, right it's that impulse and it's and it's
10:14 Potential for manifesting itself incrementally, of course, that's what they're afraid of definitely, you know
10:21 And the more conspiratorially minded people are more afraid of that than everyone else and you know, and are they wrong?
10:27 Well, probably but maybe not right. That's the thing
10:30 It's the more extreme beliefs are probably not true
10:32 but sometimes they are and
10:35 So so paint me the picture what happens if we don't address this if we don't actually have a awakening within academia and our culture
10:42 We get a chronic pandemic and an increasingly authoritarian government at the same time
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