00:00 on the issue of Senedd reform, First Minister, because I'd like to raise an aspect which
00:05 does touch on our role as members of the Westminster Parliament. Because at the moment, across
00:10 Wales, there's a set of constituencies where there is an individual member of the UK Parliament
00:17 elected and an individual member of the Welsh Senedd elected as the representative for a
00:27 specific constituency. You are the member of the Senedd for Cardiff West, First Minister.
00:32 And that means that there are often the MP and the MS will work together on constituency
00:39 issues even if they're of different parties, their offices will pass information and cases
00:43 and often work together. And often those two politicians will appear at local events together
00:50 and work on projects together. If I'm not mistaken, the proposal that is being taken
00:57 forward for Senedd reform is that it will no longer see an individual, one individual
01:05 member for a Senedd constituency and that instead there will be these large constituencies
01:10 where we're going to have multiple members of the Senedd elected, often from different
01:15 parties, but there'll be no single MS that represents a particular constituency. Is that
01:22 the correct perception?
01:24 Oh, yes in one way, but let me be clear, I am not the only Senedd member for Cardiff
01:32 West.
01:33 But you are, you are the elected member for Cardiff West.
01:36 But there is also, there are also two Conservative members of the Senedd who represent the region
01:43 in which Cardiff West is to be found and a Plaid Cymru member as well. So it's not the
01:50 case that it is simply that we have a Westminster system here in Wales.
01:55 I didn't say, I didn't say there's a Westminster system, but I'm saying that both systems give
02:00 two, give an individual elected politician who represents a specific constituency. And
02:07 that, the reason I'm raising that is that yes, there's a dynamic in terms of the relationship
02:11 with Westminster MPs, but also that visibility of an individual MS means that there is an
02:18 accountability there. There's a scrutiny there that comes from being the person in that community.
02:23 When there were the Ely riots, First Minister, you were approached for comment in the press
02:28 as the local member of the Senedd. And my question to you therefore is, is with the
02:34 move to a larger Senedd, more members, but moving to this system where there's no longer
02:40 an individual one member for a constituency, isn't there a danger that there's actually
02:45 going to be less accountability and actually just a noisier, fuzzier Senedd system?
02:52 Well, I don't agree with that. And I very much doubt that the more than half the members
02:58 of the Conservative group at the Senedd who are elected on the list system would agree
03:04 with it either, because they would certainly argue that they are no less accountable than
03:11 any other member of the Senedd. So it is true that in future, we will pair two Westminster
03:18 constituencies. There will be six members elected for that constituency. And I think
03:23 one of the great advantages of it is that individual constituents who may rather take
03:30 their case to a Conservative member of the Senedd rather than a Labour member will be
03:37 able to exercise that choice in future. There will be a greater plurality of representation.
03:43 And I think to plurality will come a greater sense of accountability as well.
03:49 I think there's a day for an individual member of Parliament. One of the golden rules is
03:53 that you treat every constituency, every constituent as an equal, whether they voted for you or
03:59 not. What you seem to be hinting at, First Minister, is a system where almost a plight
04:05 Cymru MS or a Labour MS will deal with Labour voters or plight Cymru voters, and you get
04:11 a kind of segmentisation of the constituency, which I think is really unhealthy.
04:17 That's absolutely not what I said. Because I completely take the same principle as you
04:25 do. Anybody who comes through the door of my office gets the same service. And I never
04:31 want to know how people's political preferences have been exercised. But individual voters
04:38 will have choices, not members of the Senate. Individual citizens will have choices as to
04:44 who they think will be the most effective person to take up their case. I think that's
04:49 a good thing.
04:50 But personally, I think it's a recipe for fuzziness, confusion. I think it's a recipe
04:56 for less accountability and scrutiny. And I think it's not going to lead to a more effective
05:01 Senate. But that's a personal view.
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