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00:00:00 because you're powerful, powerful inside, outside, wonderful, magical, beauty, can't hide me and you,
00:00:07 never lose, trust me, can't lie, hopeful, hopeful, till the day we die. And good morning Trinidad and
00:00:14 Tobago and the rest of the world. I'm Marlon Hopkins and welcome to the Morning Edition. It's
00:00:17 Wednesday, October 25th, 2023. I hope that you're having a good day, that you had a good night,
00:00:23 and that you're safe and sound with us this morning. We do have a lot for you on the program,
00:00:26 but here's what now. I was on the international news just now and I was looking at something,
00:00:32 and I thought it was very, very interesting. So it's the BBC I was looking at. Tens of thousands
00:00:38 of women in Iceland are refusing to work on Tuesday, including the country's Prime Minister.
00:00:44 Now the Women's Day Off has been called in protest at the gender pay gap and gender-based violence.
00:00:50 It marks the first full-day women's strike in the country since 1975, and women and non-binary
00:00:57 people have been urged to refuse paid and unpaid work, including household chores. Fields in which
00:01:05 women form the majority of workers, such as health care and education, are especially affected. Will
00:01:12 we ever see something like that in Trinidad and Tobago? Yeah? Someone says no. But I find this is
00:01:20 so special, I think, and to me it shows a different type of leadership, something to
00:01:28 think about. All right, let's check out what's happening on the front page of the Daily Express
00:01:32 for today. All right, so miracle escape, driver walks away unhurt after TNTEC pole crashes on SUV.
00:01:41 Total fire officers and TNTEC personnel examined the Kia Sportage, which was severely damaged by
00:01:47 TNTEC pole on Sheconia Avenue, Pleasantville, San Fernando yesterday. The driver of the vehicle
00:01:52 inset escaped unhurt. All right, and let's check out what's happening in sport. Tough day. Team
00:02:00 TTO failed to advance in men's team sprint. Team TTO was eliminated after the qualifying round of
00:02:07 the men's team sprint yesterday morning at the Velodromo at Park Day. Woo! How do you pronounce
00:02:16 that boy? Penalolan? Penalolan? Penayolan? All right, we lose. I have a cameraman, he's trying to,
00:02:25 he's looking at the word quite closely to see what it is. All right, all right, so yeah, so let me
00:02:32 see. A woman escapes death. A woman escaped death yesterday morning when a utility pole with
00:02:37 transformers attached crashed onto a vehicle in Pleasantville. The 35-year-old Laramayne woman was
00:02:43 physically unhurt. Yeah, all right, some of the stories making the Daily Express for you today.
00:02:50 It's time to remind you of a Trinbago, your nice feature. Remember to participate, WhatsApp your
00:02:54 videos or images to 737-3778. We do have this image for you. It's captioned. When I first saw
00:03:03 it, I thought, what I'm going to tell you, it's lettuce growing in the person's hydroponics
00:03:11 garden. Let me tell you, that is making a great change. I don't know if you all have been looking
00:03:18 at videos, let's say on social media, on Instagram and so on, but a lot of people are involving
00:03:24 themselves in this sort of agriculture and it is, it is very, very successful. Another thing to think
00:03:31 about. All right, so we do have a packed program for you today. You have your coffee and some tea
00:03:37 and something to eat. Yeah, we are coming back.
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00:04:13 craving pure joy, reach for Chub Chub. Diana Candy, the sweet genius. It started with the best
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00:04:49 [Music]
00:05:09 This Diwali, let the divine lights of the dears bring victory over darkness into your life.
00:05:13 Happy Diwali to all. A message from Kaleidoscope Paints Limited.
00:05:18 [Music]
00:05:22 This thing is about to break for you.
00:05:26 I was in Gethsemane, he dragged that tire called salvation for man.
00:05:30 [Music]
00:05:33 Lift my eyes unto the hills.
00:05:36 We only have one place to go for help. Hallelujah. So I celebrate in Jesus.
00:05:43 [Music]
00:05:54 Walk into your new season.
00:05:56 [Music]
00:06:04 Fellas, you know what? Real husbands care for their wives.
00:06:08 Real fathers are an example for their children.
00:06:12 Real men do not use violence.
00:06:15 [Music]
00:06:19 [Music]
00:06:42 Welcome back everyone and a very special good morning to all of you.
00:06:46 Thank you very much for joining us this morning. We do have a lot for you on the Morning Edition today.
00:06:52 But let's return to the Daily Express for some other stories.
00:06:57 There's a very interesting story here.
00:06:59 Jayanti, bail restrictions creating single mother households.
00:07:04 Lambasting the government for its intellectual laziness,
00:07:09 United National Congress Senator Jayanti Lachmidiyel said yesterday,
00:07:13 "The restrictions on bail were creating single mother households."
00:07:17 She said, "When the person is held in remand yard for 13 years
00:07:22 and is then released due to a lack of evidence,
00:07:25 that household is left without a father for that period
00:07:29 and the family life of the person who is accused but not convicted is destroyed in the process.
00:07:36 The problem with crime is that this government does not understand prevention, detection and rehabilitation.
00:07:43 If you ask them what is their plan on crime, it is we want to deny crime but the UNC wouldn't support us."
00:07:52 So she says, "It sounds nice and it sounds nicer to blame the UNC," she said,
00:07:57 stressing that both opposition and independent senators did not support the last bail amendment bill.
00:08:03 All right, so that's a part of the debate, the discussion yesterday.
00:08:08 And the Attorney General says, "System overhaul to tackle trial delays.
00:08:13 The world is a place overtaken by violence.
00:08:17 And when one looks at what is happening in Israel, Palestine today,
00:08:21 Trinidad and Tobago is fortunate," says Attorney General Reginald Armour.
00:08:26 However, the AG said, "Winning the battle against crime in TNT
00:08:30 seems to be of paramount importance to the government."
00:08:33 Of course, he was speaking in the Senate yesterday.
00:08:36 Armour also announced that there will be an end to waiting up to 15 years for a trial in the criminal justice system.
00:08:45 So some good news there for the criminal justice system.
00:08:50 Another story in the Express today, 28,000 new workers added to labor force in second quarter 2023.
00:08:59 So some of the big stories in the newspaper.
00:09:05 We are following up for you.
00:09:07 I don't know if you saw it, but it's something that is happening regionally.
00:09:13 And I don't know that a lot of people are viewing these developments with interest,
00:09:20 but something is happening between Guyana and Venezuela.
00:09:24 Right. So what has happened is that the Guyanese president has said that Venezuela is trying to encroach on Guyana.
00:09:37 And he says that that's the president of Guyana.
00:09:40 He says that Venezuela wants to claim more than two thirds of Guyana.
00:09:46 Right. So right now there is a war of words happening between the Guyanese president
00:09:51 and also the government of Venezuela. But it all deals with land.
00:09:56 So it's something that we are following up for you and we will be discussing that at the end of our program today.
00:10:03 But of course, if these tensions are building, this is going to affect, I suspect, our relationship.
00:10:10 It could affect our relationship with Venezuela.
00:10:15 And it could affect relationships in the Caribbean between regional governments.
00:10:21 So we'll see how that goes. Let's hope for a de-escalation of tensions there.
00:10:29 All right. So let's see what's happening.
00:10:36 WASA, six Caribbean water utilities in IDB project.
00:10:41 The Inter-American Development Bank has launched a pilot version of an innovative data sharing platform
00:10:47 within a virtual community for seven Caribbean water utilities, including the Water and Sewage Authority in Trinidad and Tobago.
00:10:55 What's happening with the water situation? Has it improved? I hope so.
00:10:59 I'm seeing where operations would have returned to normal at the desalination plant.
00:11:04 Yes. So I hope things are working out there. Just incidentally, the lady who called me yesterday about the water problem.
00:11:10 I passed it on to WASA. So hopefully you can get some or you have already got gotten some assistance.
00:11:18 Right. Senator on desecration, vandalism, not the work of a vagrant.
00:11:24 Independent Senator DeRupteemel yesterday urged the police not to dismiss the acts of desecration directed at Hindu temples as the work of a vagrant or a mentally disturbed person.
00:11:38 What we need to note is that to take alcohol and to take meat into a temple deliberately to desecrate that temple calls for a high level of organization and thinking from vagrants and mentally disturbed persons.
00:11:52 We said as he contributed to the budget debate on the Senate yesterday.
00:11:57 So I suspect an investigation is happening in connection with this matter, and I think that it would be good for all if it is found out very, very soon what has transpired with this matter.
00:12:14 Because as you know, a country such as us with so many religions and people following so many religions in Trinidad and Tobago, there is a possibility of tensions also rising between them.
00:12:32 And, you know, I think it is something that we have managed well over the years, and I think that there is a high level of respect for everyone's religion in Trinidad and Tobago.
00:12:46 All right. So, again, hopefully that is settled very, very soon. And there's a resolution to that matter.
00:12:55 All right. So let's get into the program now.
00:13:00 So we are continuing to keep the spotlight on the judiciary and follow up for you the Court of Appeals ruling that former Chief Magistrate Marcia S. Caesar was coerced and forced out of office in 2017.
00:13:14 With us this morning is Senior Counsel Martin Daly. Mr. Daly, good morning.
00:13:20 Mr. Daly, you're hearing me?
00:13:25 All right. I think we're having some difficulty in hearing Mr. Daly or Mr. Daly hearing me.
00:13:30 Yeah. So, Studio, if we can try to address that matter so that we can speak with Mr. Daly about this matter.
00:13:38 I'm sure that he has been viewing.
00:13:42 I think I'm hearing myself. Mr. Daly, good morning.
00:13:49 I think there's a delay that we are experiencing.
00:13:57 Mr. Daly, you're hearing me?
00:14:02 All right. You all we need to we need to address that. All right.
00:14:06 We really want to hear from Mr. Daly on this matter. Gopi Singh owes his life to covid health care.
00:14:13 Health Minister Terence D. Al Singh said former Minister Dr. Tim Gopi Singh owes his life to the parallel health system and covid-19 team as they exchanged words in the Senate yesterday.
00:14:25 Now, D. Al Singh and Gopi Singh went back and forth and the opposition bench was vocal as being engaged in crosstalk over government's criticism of the Al Singh and the government's handling of the covid-19 pandemic.
00:14:37 As I said yesterday, you all have been monitoring what has been happening abroad because there is a spike in covid cases.
00:14:44 So it's it's still there. It's still with us. So that's something that we need to keep a keen eye on.
00:14:49 Yeah. AG's wife starts Caricom job, Caricom or Caribbean community secretary general Dr.
00:14:56 Carla Barnett yesterday announced the appointment of Trinidad and Tobago national Elizabeth Solomon as assistant secretary general, foreign and community relations.
00:15:07 Yeah. So some of the stories making the Daily Express for today, upgrade for cricket heritage museum, more gems to go on display.
00:15:18 The Queen's Park Cricket Club's Cricket Heritage Museum is not closed. In fact, the museum is highly hopeful of unveiling more gems from its historic archives in time for the ICC Men's T20 World Cup set to be staged in the Caribbean and the United States in 2024.
00:15:41 All right. Let's see if we do have Mr. Daly. Mr. Daly, good morning.
00:15:45 I'm still not hearing you. You're not hearing me. You see, you see my mouth moving, but he's not hearing me, but I'm hearing him.
00:15:56 I'm trying to rejoin. All right. OK, so we are, as you would have seen of our viewers, we have made contact with Mr. Daly, but he's not hearing me.
00:16:06 We have to do this. We have to do this by phone. Yeah. All right. So, Sudio, let's let's try to do it by the phone.
00:16:14 Unfortunately, we are hearing Mr. Daly on air. So please, let's let's address that.
00:16:22 Venezuela warns of conflict, rejects Guyana's offensive statements on Esequibo.
00:16:27 So that is what I was telling you about. Venezuela yesterday said it rejects the offensive statements made by the Guyana government regarding the upcoming consultative referendum on the Esequibo,
00:16:39 which the South American country continues to claim as part of its territory.
00:16:45 I haven't. I mean, this is a new issue, if I can if I can put it like that.
00:16:53 I don't think I have heard about it before. And if if if it is something that has been discussed before, you know, I'm subject to correction.
00:17:02 But I haven't heard in recent days anything coming from CARICOM responding to this.
00:17:08 I haven't heard any prime minister really speaking about in the region, speaking about this.
00:17:13 I suspect it's a it's new news to maybe the leaders in CARICOM. But hopefully, I suspect we should hear something very, very soon from CARICOM on this,
00:17:25 because I suspect CARICOM needs to take a position on it. Yeah.
00:17:31 So, again, we're just waiting now to do an interview with Martin Daly concerning this situation where it is alleged that the former chief magistrate,
00:17:44 Marcia A. Caesar, was coerced and forced out of office in 2017. Mr. Daly, do we have you now? Good morning.
00:17:52 Yes, I am here, Marlon. Good morning. It's been asking me for a password, which I don't have. Good morning to you and good morning to your viewers.
00:18:01 Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Daly. Well, I'm sure that you have been viewing this situation,
00:18:07 this recent ruling by the Court of Appeal concerning the JLSC and the former chief magistrate, Marcia A. Caesar.
00:18:17 What's your take, Mr. Daly? Yes, well, I have been following it very closely.
00:18:23 I reread all of the judgments last night. And the first thing I have to say is that it is very unfortunate that, again,
00:18:35 the constitutional body has let us down. And it is very difficult to run a country successfully if all of the independent bodies continue to make mistakes
00:18:49 and serious mistakes at that. We had a fiasco with the Police Service Commission not long ago.
00:18:56 The list has never reached the Parliament. Going back, we had problems with the Integrity Commission and so on.
00:19:03 So the first thing about this, looking at it from a macro level, is that public trust and confidence is further undermined as a result of this
00:19:12 adverse judgment against the Judicial and Legal Service Commission. Coming now to the case, it is quite astounding that the Court of Appeal
00:19:23 should unanimously have found that unconstitutional and unlawful means were used, that there was clearly caution on Marcia A. Caesar to resign the position
00:19:36 as President. And of course, at the start of all of it, and I think the judgment of Justice York to make this plain, there was a failure to do
00:19:46 due diligence. The Judicial and Legal Service Commission ought not to have found out via newspaper reports that the appointee or the proposed
00:19:56 appointee had a number of partyhood matters that should have been first on the list of due diligence. I mean, I've been around a long time.
00:20:05 And when people get notified that they're going to be promoted from First Instance to the Court of Appeal, the first thing that has to happen
00:20:14 is arrangements have to be made regarding outstanding judgments and partyhood matters. And there's usually a significant gap between notice that
00:20:24 we are going to appoint you to the Court of Appeal and completing your business at First Instance. It's absolutely elementary. And it's elementary
00:20:32 mistake. And whatever strictures may be placed on Marcia A. Caesar for not making what might be described as a full disclosure about partyhood
00:20:44 matters, there was a significant failure of due diligence. Then of course, the problem having arisen, they then set about trying to fix it.
00:20:57 And indeed, Justice Barrow calls it a quick fix. They then tried a quick fix by all of these coercive means. And we now have a situation where
00:21:08 Marcia A. Caesar remains High Court Judge in office. And I don't know what's going to happen when the 21-day stay expires. So there are all these
00:21:18 angles. And it's just quite shameful that a high constitutional body should have conducted itself like this when there were other options when the
00:21:29 partyhood matters were revealed.
00:21:31 Mr. Daly, you think that a firm position can be taken as to what would have transpired with this case and the ruling? Because there's the possibility
00:21:43 of an appeal. There's a possibility of it going to the Privy Council. You think that judging from what we are seeing from the judgment and what
00:21:54 allegedly transpired, that some firm position and decision could be taken as to how the JLSC operated?
00:22:07 Well, there's a lot in there. I mean, we don't know if they are going to pursue an appeal to the Privy Council. We simply don't know what's going to
00:22:17 happen. If I had to manage this situation, I would have to have my lawyers have a discussion with Marcia A. Caesar's lawyers as to what is to
00:22:28 happen next. It's very unlikely, I suppose, that she would, despite holding the office, that she would sit as a High Court judge. And so they need to
00:22:36 sit down, decide if they're appealing or not, if they're appealing. And then they'll do what they have to to meet the requirements for
00:22:44 conditional leave to appeal. If not, they must sit down and come to a conclusion. Presumably, there'll have to be a discussion about the level of
00:22:52 compensation she's to receive, the Court of Appeal having said that she's to get compensation. But if it's just allowed to float along, we're
00:23:02 likely to see another attempt at a quick fix, which won't work. They have to accept that they're not appealing. They have to accept they made a
00:23:10 mistake and the lawyers have to sit down and solve the problem.
00:23:16 Mr. Daley, have you taken a position at all as to how, following the ruling, the JLSC has responded to this situation? Because there has been the
00:23:28 suggestion, the recommendation, that the JLSC or even the Chief Justice needs to say something about the matter. I have not seen anything on the
00:23:38 news, in the media at all, about it. Is there a need for the JLSC to say something in an attempt to try to protect its integrity, credibility?
00:23:52 Well, yes. If it's not going to have the negotiations, which I recommend, then of course it has to tell us what is the next step. If they lodge an
00:24:01 application for a conditional leave to appeal, well, that will become public. And if they don't, then of course they have to make a cautious
00:24:09 statement saying what they intend to do. But I don't see anything that can be done other than to sit down and have negotiations. I don't think
00:24:18 anybody is expecting that the judge will be assigned or rusted to sit from the day that this day expires. So of course they have to tell us
00:24:26 something. But they first have to decide whether they're going to appeal to it or not.
00:24:31 Yeah. Has this cast a cloud at all over the conduct of the JLSC? I understand that when that decision was made, there were, or should I say,
00:24:43 the JLSC today is comprised of other judicial officers and not the officers who would have taken the decision in 2017.
00:24:55 Well, of course the Judicial and Legal Services Commission as a constitutional body, institutional integrity has been compromised.
00:25:05 And the fact that there are new people there now does not remove the obvious lack of public trust and confidence in the JLSC as an institution.
00:25:17 They have to earn back trust and presumably the new members will work towards that happening. But of course they're under a cloud as an institution.
00:25:27 Judging from what we are seeing here on the surface, from the ruling and what is being alleged, there is also the view that the persons involved
00:25:41 are learned persons, are educated persons, are experienced persons, and they should have known better.
00:25:50 Well, they should have conducted, of course they should have known better. They should have conducted due diligence. They did not.
00:25:57 And when the crisis arose, they should have set about trying to fix it by a studied view of what is to happen next,
00:26:07 not just try to rush Marcelles' air season to coerce, as the Court of Appeals found, into resignation.
00:26:14 In fact, the Court of Appeals also said that the press releases that were drafted were plain untrue.
00:26:24 So it's a very serious cloud. Not only have you made a mistake, but you then tried to cover it by representations that are untrue.
00:26:34 So there is a lot of things here. But you know in public life in Trinidad and Tobago, nobody ever says,
00:26:40 "I'm sorry, I will do better on what I intend to do better." It just does not happen.
00:26:46 Yeah. Has this also cast some questions over the conduct of the Chief Justice?
00:26:57 Well, of course, the leader, the buck stops with the leader, and the leader who remains there has to be accountable for this error.
00:27:06 There's no way of getting around it. But I suppose in our usual way, we will arrive at some solution eventually.
00:27:14 It may cost the taxpayer a lot of money. We'll arrive at some solution eventually, which may make the unfortunate outcome go away
00:27:23 on this particular occasion. It leaves open trust and confidence for the future, and it leaves open the constant problem we have in Trinidad.
00:27:33 When something goes wrong, there's not only no accountability in the general sense, but there are no sanctions.
00:27:42 I made the point already, you cannot run a society without sanctions. A sanctionless society is doomed to fail in key areas of life,
00:27:54 and is doomed to destroy public trust. Of course, the place will continue to run, and electricity will come, and water will come,
00:28:03 but the important, many important aspects of the running of the country will fail if people can make mistakes, not be accountable,
00:28:14 and not be sanctioned. But the problem is, there is very little cry for sanction. Yes, a few commentators, a few public-spirited persons,
00:28:23 a few people who are not afraid of victimization will ask for sanctions. But the society as a whole is very indifferent,
00:28:30 probably because of the stress of day-to-day life. So there's no public pressure for accountability.
00:28:38 Is there anything that you could suggest as to how to prevent a similar situation such as this from occurring in the future?
00:28:46 Well, you know, it's partly cultural. We've got to understand that if we accept office, we've got to have, well, actually,
00:28:54 we need to have a set of defined public standards for conduct in public office. We don't have any set standards now,
00:29:03 so pretty much anything goes. And so we've got to decide what standards, what are the standards to which we must hold office holders.
00:29:12 And the first thing, of course, is that culturally, people have to find the guts to be independent, so that when a crisis arises,
00:29:20 they can say, "No, I am not going to be a party to this. No, we are not covering it up. No, we are not having a quick fix.
00:29:27 No, I am not kowtowing to anybody. So if I have to send a list to the parliament, I'm sending a list to the parliament
00:29:34 and let the chips fall where they may." Yeah. How do we see this playing out, Mr. Daly? Do we see the appeal coming?
00:29:41 Do you see it going to the Privy Council? How do you see it coming to an end?
00:29:45 Well, I don't know what they're going to do in terms of an appeal. What I've said to you is that the lawyers for both sides,
00:29:52 if they're not appealing, then the lawyers for both sides must sit down and negotiate a final resolution of the matter.
00:30:01 And the only way is either you appeal, and then you wait the outcome of the appeal, or you sit down and decide,
00:30:08 "Okay, the JRC side has to say, 'Well, we have lost the case. The court has said so-and-so. You have won the case.
00:30:16 Now let us decide how we are going to work this out so we can have a final resolution of the matter.'
00:30:22 I don't see any other way."
00:30:25 Mr. Daly, it's always a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you very much for joining us this morning.
00:30:30 Thank you, Marlon.
00:30:32 All right. Bye for now.
00:30:33 Good morning to you as well.
00:30:34 Okay. So it's time for a quick break, but we do have a video for you. It's from Shanice Charles.
00:30:41 Crashing thunder during the storm in St. Joseph.
00:30:51 On Friday.
00:30:54 Thank you very much, Shanice.
00:30:56 Good morning. We're coming back.
00:30:58 [Music]
00:31:08 You know, who would have ever believed, Jessica could take care of a child?
00:31:14 I know, right? I'm a kinship foster parent to my nephew, Malik.
00:31:19 Papa, you remind me of my grandmother, you know, when she used to take care of my cousins.
00:31:24 If I didn't step in, I don't know where he would have ended up.
00:31:28 Plus, I get support from Children's Authority, training and counseling.
00:31:34 But Jessica, you're not married.
00:31:35 That doesn't matter. Once you have a safe home and you're related to the child, you're good.
00:31:41 So did his give him money to do this?
00:31:43 Yeah, they do give me some money.
00:31:45 So, auntie, you could buy all of my games for me?
00:31:48 Oh, I'm so sorry, Malik, but that money's to take care of you.
00:31:52 Okay, smuggle up. Smuggle up, yes.
00:31:55 I will try. Mommy, you can buy--
00:31:57 No.
00:31:58 Wait, I haven't even finished my sentence.
00:32:01 About Lamborghini, you can get lamb stew for lunch.
00:32:04 Auntie Jessica could only come when you come in, because all I'm doing is talking people business.
00:32:09 [Speaking in foreign language]
00:32:11 But, Mommy, the boy don't even live here.
00:32:13 Yeah, go to your bunkers.
00:32:15 What bunkers? Who is that?
00:32:17 I think I'm getting pretty good at this.
00:32:19 On the outside, many of us look healthy.
00:32:30 But there can be trouble brewing inside.
00:32:34 High levels of bad cholesterol can lead to heart disease, a leading cause of death in Trinidad and Tobago.
00:32:41 Reduce your risk with a balanced diet, regular exercise, and Jameson's Omega-369, so you can be in good shape inside and out.
00:32:51 Jameson Omega-369, clinically proven to reduce cholesterol.
00:32:55 [Engine revving]
00:32:59 [Music]
00:33:17 [Tires screeching]
00:33:27 I road save, because life is precious.
00:33:30 Plus, I can't afford to pay another speeding ticket.
00:33:35 A message from the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service.
00:33:41 [Music]
00:33:57 Welcome back, everyone.
00:33:58 Startling revelations and a warning from the health minister of an explosion of mental health issues in this country.
00:34:06 Joining us now is clinical psychologist, Dr. Margaret Nakid Chatter.
00:34:11 Doctor, good morning.
00:34:13 Good morning, Marlon. Good to be here. Thank you for having me on.
00:34:16 Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us this morning, doctor.
00:34:19 Well, doctor, are you surprised at all by what the health minister has said?
00:34:25 No surprise at all. And I mean, this is not a new revelation.
00:34:29 Even before COVID, during COVID, and now it's post-COVID, we have had pockets of small explosion, Marlon, of persons with mental illness.
00:34:38 And not just in Trinidad and Tobago, it's increasing globally.
00:34:42 Mental illness and all of the issues that go with mental illness needs it.
00:34:47 I think right now, globally, it's considered the highest casualty ever to occur in a society.
00:34:55 So it's not a surprise what the minister has said.
00:34:57 And I would be really interested to see where the data is coming from,
00:35:02 because I'm sure he made the statement against a backdrop of data that he would have pulled from the hospitals and from the clinics, etc.,
00:35:11 of the increasing mental illness in this society.
00:35:14 Yeah. And doctor, when we speak about pockets of explosions of mental health issues, just how serious is the situation in Trinidad and Tobago?
00:35:26 Now, you're looking at a situation, Marlon, where recently we have had so, so many issues as regards mental illness and pockets of explosion,
00:35:35 especially among young people. During COVID, you have had high rates of mental illness and resulting in completed suicides among males,
00:35:46 especially the 16 to 29 age group and over 60, and a lot of anxieties and concerns there.
00:35:52 Post COVID, I mean, now the society is getting back on its feet, the educational institutions, work employment places,
00:36:00 but there are still many people who are suffering losses, losses of jobs, losses of parents who died from COVID.
00:36:08 Now in a society, we're hearing so, so many instances of young people grieving the loss of parents,
00:36:13 parents grieving the loss of their children. Against a backdrop of a high crime rate,
00:36:18 you have families who have lost loved ones, whether those loved ones were criminals or not, they were considered loved ones.
00:36:24 So we have grieving people. We have people who are grieving in the society and especially, I think, amongst the young population.
00:36:33 Yeah. And, you know, doctor, as you would know, that we have had in Trinidad and Tobago a culture when we're speaking about mental health issues,
00:36:44 we have always had a culture and I suspect things are changing, but we always saw people as being weak.
00:36:53 And when and there's a bit of hesitation to ask for assistance. Is that still the situation?
00:37:03 As you said, things are changing, albeit very, very slowly in a society where I think mental health is not given equal priority.
00:37:13 This is a very unequal society where mental health is concerned. There's still a lot of discrimination.
00:37:19 Yes, people talk about it. I mean, we talk about it, but the emphasis is not really on getting things back where mental illness is concerned.
00:37:30 And I think that when you talk about this culture of silence among mental illness, yes, it is frequently discussed, but it is not understood.
00:37:40 People don't understand mental illness. Many people still think that it's somebody doing something to you or you're supposed to be,
00:37:47 you're supposed to have it together. How come you don't have it together? Come on, man.
00:37:50 You know, so it's not understood and it is not even understood, I think, by people in the medical fraternity.
00:37:56 I heard that in his talk, the Honorable Terence D. Allison said that, you know, we want to get the TTMA, the Trinidad and Tobago Medical Association
00:38:05 and also the UWE on board and put in a conversation. But I'm not hearing the other stakeholders who are intimately concerned with persons with mental illness.
00:38:14 What about the Trinidad and Tobago Association of Psychologists? What about the Psychiatric Association of Trinidad and Tobago?
00:38:21 These are people who need to enter into a conversation if we have to move it forward.
00:38:26 These are people who touch base with persons with mental illness on a daily basis.
00:38:31 So, yes, we're discussing it, but it is not understood. It is prevalent in a society where it is still very, very strongly stigmatized.
00:38:40 And I think a lot of young people, as you know, are overdiagnosed and they go into the Internet.
00:38:45 They're self-medicating, they're diagnosing themselves, and it is therefore not an illness that is understood or properly treated.
00:38:54 Yeah. And, you know, doctor, I think that my experience has been is that in Trinidad and Tobago,
00:39:01 persons with mental health issues are not viewed as having a sickness.
00:39:07 Again, again, they are being viewed as this one. Look at this one. He's naked walking up and down the street.
00:39:13 He's playing the fool. And it is still being viewed in that sort of way.
00:39:17 So there's a level of still insensitivity when it comes to it.
00:39:22 Yes, because you see, mental illness, Marlon, is not something that we can see.
00:39:27 So if you can't see the disease, is it there or not? And I think that is the standpoint from which we need to start.
00:39:34 We need to stop looking at it as a disease. And from a health perspective,
00:39:39 a lot of employers do not give time off for their employees to have mental health days,
00:39:44 even though they're under stress on the booner, because they can't see the problem.
00:39:48 Medical doctors can see the physical disease so you can easily treat it.
00:39:52 So when it but when it comes to mental illness, because you can't see it.
00:39:56 And a lot of people in our society mask them and they go around with faces smiling.
00:40:01 I had a young girl last week in session who came in in her early 30s and she says, I am just tired.
00:40:08 So I asked her what you're tired. What was happening? She said, I'm tired of being sad.
00:40:13 I'm tired of just putting one foot in front of the other every day. I just want to leave this life.
00:40:19 And for a long time, she has been mask and she's been doing her job very robotic,
00:40:24 taking care of a mother with illness whom she lost to cancer, a young mother.
00:40:29 And these young people and other persons, I imagine, are masking their grief, masking their sadness,
00:40:35 masking their tiredness because other people cannot see what is happening with them.
00:40:40 So as we alluded to earlier, it is not really understood or even given the priority that it should in a society today.
00:40:49 Doctor, if you could, please tell us about some of the symptoms that a normal person could identify if someone is having a problem mentally.
00:41:03 All right. And when you say normal, I had to smile.
00:41:07 How many of us are normal walking around? That's a good point, Doctor.
00:41:13 Yeah. Yeah. Because all of us at some point in our lives are afflicted by stress levels and anxiety levels.
00:41:20 So it really comes down to our ability to cope, our coping strategies,
00:41:25 the kind of resilience that we learn from our parents or we learn from older persons on how to cope.
00:41:30 But let's look at the symptoms. So you see persons possibly making plans,
00:41:35 researching the Internet on ways to die. You see persons are very anxious,
00:41:41 maybe hide away in their rooms, not attending to their hygiene.
00:41:45 Persons being very irrational, abusing substances like drugs and alcohol.
00:41:51 So you have to be very alert, especially to the persons in your home.
00:41:56 When you see differences happening, when you're seeing them withdrawing from you,
00:42:00 not attending family gatherings, not being part of the conversations, locking themselves away in a room,
00:42:07 possibly telling you that they can't cope. And you say, oh, gosh, I'm hearing that story again.
00:42:12 But listen to the story. And if you don't want to listen to it, get somebody to talk,
00:42:16 because it is Marlon in talking about our issues and talking about our griefs and talking about our sorrows that we find an avenue.
00:42:25 A lot of people out there don't really want. They know what to do.
00:42:28 I have a frequent caller. We have the hotline that we have established during COVID.
00:42:32 And there's a frequent caller, a gentleman in his 60s who always calls.
00:42:36 And I think he knows what to do, but he just wants to hear the conversation again.
00:42:40 He wants to tell his story and he wants to hear what to do.
00:42:43 So people want listeners. They want family members to listen just to their story,
00:42:48 just to how they're feeling, to let others know that something is happening with them, that they can't cope on their own.
00:42:56 Yeah. But, doctor, how do you create that safe environment for people where people feel that they will not be judged and they will get the assistance that they need?
00:43:08 And all of this is going to happen in an environment of confidentiality.
00:43:13 Yeah, and that is why, Marlon, last year, the Ministry of Health set up a suicide prevention hotline.
00:43:20 We have Lifeline already in the societies. We have the crisis intervention team hotline.
00:43:27 All of these are places where people can call. There is a condition of anonymity because we don't see them,
00:43:35 but they can share their stories in a safe space where they know that it is not going to be bandied about in the staff rooms or in their workplaces.
00:43:43 What I have lobbied for, and hopefully that persons listening and policyholders and so,
00:43:49 there should be safe spaces to conduct group therapy for persons, for young people, for older persons,
00:43:56 sessions where facilitated by psychologists, by counsellors, where people can come and feel that they can share their stories, that they are not alone.
00:44:06 And many persons going through their sorrows and their grief, Marlon, sometimes saying, "I'm the only one. How can this be happening to me?
00:44:12 Why me?" No, you're not alone. There are many persons like you struggling to cope, to cope with what is happening with life itself.
00:44:20 Life is happening. And either you cope or you not cope. And there are many persons unraveling.
00:44:26 So, when we talk about safe spaces, we have the hotlines, but we should have physical spaces.
00:44:32 But you know, there's also, as I shared with Nicole, many persons coming on to what we know as chat groups.
00:44:40 And there is such a group, Patient Connect, that has developed what is called a wellness hub.
00:44:45 I don't know if you were able to get the flyer online, but this wellness hub has partnered with the Human Resource Management Association of Trinidad and Tobago.
00:44:55 And it provides an opportunity for employees and also persons to log on with their smartphones.
00:45:01 You know, many persons don't want to come into physical spaces. That is a traditional thing of the past.
00:45:08 So, on a chat group with the AI that we have, the artificial intelligence systems, etc., the metaverse systems that are being created,
00:45:17 you can log on. You can log on to a dietician. You can log on to a counselor, a doctor.
00:45:24 You can find out what is happening with you and they can track your wellness and your illness so that you can get to a better point.
00:45:31 So, yes, a safe space is created with all the technology that we now have so that persons can be helped in whatever is happening with them.
00:45:40 But don't we have to share coping mechanisms with people, let's say, at a very young age?
00:45:48 Maybe it needs to start in the primary schools and move all the way up?
00:45:55 You have hit the nail on the head, Marlon, because what we really could, you're asking, what do we need to do?
00:46:01 And it has to start as early as possible. What we're looking at here is a sort of mental health literacy,
00:46:08 a sort of mental health hygiene, creating an awareness for young people starting in the primary schools
00:46:15 so that throughout their lives, they know that there are solutions. They know that things can happen.
00:46:21 They know that if so-and-so is happening, they can go here.
00:46:25 What we don't have in this society is awareness of where to go, how to access, what to do when situations happen.
00:46:33 And I think more emphasis by all of those making the policies, all of the stakeholders need to happen.
00:46:40 We also need people to come on board. There are many persons who tell me that they want to access counseling services,
00:46:46 but their insurance companies are not providing help. There are just about one or two insurance companies
00:46:52 who are giving persons the facility to access mental health services by assisting them.
00:46:58 Insurance companies need to come on board, not just talk.
00:47:02 This is a society where we talk and we talk and we talk, and we don't follow through with what should happen.
00:47:08 So policymakers put things into place. Insurance companies, we need for parents and teachers
00:47:14 and parents and teachers are part of those who are falling victim to stressful situations,
00:47:20 yet they are the persons in charge of children.
00:47:23 So we need to put plans in place for parents and teachers and all of those who take care of our children
00:47:29 so that they can access the medical services available to them.
00:47:33 And as you correctly said, let it start early o'clock in ECCE programs in the primary schools.
00:47:40 Yeah, but you know, doctor, there have been instances in the past where a relative, because of mental problems,
00:47:50 they acted in a violent way and there have been situations where the police were called out to deal with that situation.
00:47:59 And in some cases that person was killed.
00:48:03 And the suggestion has been that there have to be staff available, let's say to the police service,
00:48:15 when incidents such as these happen, because I don't know that the police officers are able to deal with an individual
00:48:23 who has mental challenges and it may need a more professional person,
00:48:30 one who is understanding of the situation to kind of de-escalate that situation.
00:48:37 And Marlon, I have always, always talked about a multi-pronged approach to dealing with situations like that.
00:48:45 Our policemen, our services are not adequately trained to deal with mental persons.
00:48:50 So let's take your example.
00:48:52 If you enter a situation, you have a police officer who would want to possibly address all of the legal ramifications,
00:49:00 but you also have a social worker, you also have a counselor in that situation,
00:49:04 a social worker who would take all the necessary information as regard, let's say for example,
00:49:09 that situation where the two young children were found in an apartment or a home, which was really dilapidated.
00:49:18 You know, you take that, you take a note of what has happened, and then you have the counselor who is able to de-escalate the situation.
00:49:24 So it cannot be left to the policeman alone.
00:49:27 When you go into these situations, it must be a team effort, a team effort where people have their various skills.
00:49:34 And many times we put a lot of weight on the policeman doing this and doing that and doing that,
00:49:40 but they are not trained to do this and neither should we expect that they should have all of these various skills.
00:49:47 So you must call in the professionals, you must call in people like ourselves who are trained in these situations
00:49:54 to talk to family members, to de-escalate a situation, to know what is happening,
00:49:59 to move a situation around so that it is a win-win situation for the family.
00:50:03 No family wants to call in a police officer to kill their loved one, even if their loved one is mentally ill.
00:50:10 And so you want that person around. So again, a team approach is needed when you go into these situations.
00:50:17 Just about two weeks ago, I had someone call me from PR who was this older woman who is accustomed.
00:50:23 They know her. She has a history of mental illness.
00:50:26 She was just in a pamper and a T-shirt and she was wandering the streets, eating out of the drains and all of that.
00:50:33 They called, "Where do I go? How do I access mental services? When I call the ambulance, they're not coming."
00:50:38 And all of these variant issues, the public needs to know what to do, where to go, how to access services.
00:50:46 And I always have an issue, Marlon, that yes, as I said before, all of these services are talked about,
00:50:52 but how do people in remote areas access these services?
00:50:56 For some of us, $5 is nothing, but for them, $5 is a lot to take a taxi to a clinic or wherever it is.
00:51:03 We need to provide services for those who do not. And that is what we're talking about equity here.
00:51:09 This is not just about equality. Everybody should access mental health services,
00:51:13 but provide an equitable distribution of resources for those who do not have, for them to access services for their loved ones.
00:51:21 But you know, Doctor, the issue of mental health or care for people with mental health is a 24-hour activity.
00:51:32 You know, you can't have, let's say, a hotline and the hotline, the staff goes home at midnight.
00:51:39 All right. Or you're trying to deal with a violent relative and there's no staff to attend to that situation.
00:51:48 So it has to be a 24/7 initiative.
00:51:53 Marlon, where's your link with the government here? Where's your link with the policy makers?
00:51:58 Yeah, no, no. What you're saying is true, because especially on the hotline, we have callers calling us at hours when you should be asleep.
00:52:07 One, two in the morning, we have callers, because that is the time when the world is asleep,
00:52:12 when the world is quiet and when the thoughts come, when there is no activity.
00:52:17 Yes, services provided. I mean, the hospitals are open 24/7, but can they really be available for persons with mental illness?
00:52:27 And again, you go back to the question, what is the priority here?
00:52:31 I mean, the budget has been set. I have not heard much about the budgetary provisions for mental illness center, the provision of services.
00:52:40 In many of the hospitals, we have young teenagers who need these mental health services.
00:52:45 Yes, at Mount Hope Hospital, they have a few beds, but not enough.
00:52:50 Not enough priority is given to mental illness in a society that I think continues to be inequitable and not have equitable distribution and access to mental health services that they should have.
00:53:06 Yeah. Could you shed some light on this statement of the health minister?
00:53:11 He said that, of course, you touched on it earlier, but there's a part that I would want you to shed some light on.
00:53:18 Diao-Ting said TNT had to find new ways to mitigate the issue and noted there may be many who were suffering but could not access treatment or afford it.
00:53:30 Yeah. I think possibly, well, I read that and immediately I thought of the need to utilize digital and data-driven technology,
00:53:42 because even though people may not be able to afford mental health services, there is one thing that most people have in common, Marlon, and that's their cell phone.
00:53:51 That's their cell phone where they can log on to services. They can log on to help. They can log on.
00:53:56 As I said, Patient Connect offers this kind of service where you log on and there are health providers there across the board to help you.
00:54:05 But again, yes, more needs to be put in place for access to services, access to persons, as I said, who cannot.
00:54:13 But again, I think he was talking more about AI and the artificial intelligence that we have and that kind of technology coming up with ways to use chat box,
00:54:23 possibly in a different way, coming up with ways to distribute mental health services to homes where technology is used in this case.
00:54:32 Because as I said before, there are mental health services, but people are not going in. People are not physically accessing these services.
00:54:40 So the time has come more than ever for us to look at what are other ways we can access these services by mediums that people already have.
00:54:49 Yes. Dr. Margaret Nakid-Chatur.
00:54:53 You still there?
00:54:54 Yeah. It was a pleasure speaking with you. She's not hearing me.
00:54:57 I'm hearing you now.
00:54:59 I'm just saying it was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you very much for the information and education this morning. We thank you.
00:55:06 You're most welcome. Have a good day, everyone.
00:55:08 All right. Bye bye for now. So it's time to take a break with this image. It's called Morning. This is Nibbles.
00:55:16 Oh, the person is saying morning. This is Nibbles. The parrot caught sleeping. The parrot is sleeping.
00:55:23 The parrot is looking like some person, you know. We're coming back, everybody. Look, he's sleeping with his eyes open.
00:55:30 (Music)
00:55:52 Calling Steelpan enthusiasts from around the globe. The Patrons of the Arts Foundation, in collaboration with the University of Trinidad and Tobago, presents the 13th edition of its Artistic Bursary 2023.
00:56:07 This is your opportunity to pursue tertiary level study in the Steelpan at the world's premier Steelpan Academy, the University of Trinidad and Tobago.
00:56:17 The top three finalists will share the US $10,000 in prize money that will go towards accommodation, course materials, travel, and other related expenses of the Pan Fellowship Diploma or Bachelor of Fine Arts degree.
00:56:32 Be fully immersed in the culture, geography, and history of the birthplace of the Steelpan. The final round will be a globally televised live audience event.
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00:56:53 (Music)
00:57:18 Maybe you could afford to pay up to $22,500 in fines and lose your license permanently. No? Then don't drink and drive.
00:57:30 A message from the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service.
00:57:34 (Music)
00:57:47 All right, everyone. So welcome back. So, believe it or not, we're still talking about the budget. Of course, yesterday, there was another round of discussions in the Senate concerning the budget.
00:58:00 But a number of things have been said over the past few weeks. And we do have on the line this morning, Professor Roger Hussain, economist professor. Good morning.
00:58:11 Good morning. Good morning. And thanks for the invitation.
00:58:13 Absolutely, Professor. Well, for the past few weeks, we have been hearing much talk about the budget. We have heard recommendations, suggestions from the government, what they are going to do.
00:58:24 The opposition has already responded to the fiscal package. But, Professor, in all of this information, what's your analysis? What jumps out to you?
00:58:40 Well, what jumps out to me in particular is that we need to earn foreign exchange. Is that the growth has to be foreign exchange biased.
00:58:49 So that it's not just sufficient at this point in time for trying to be able to have economic growth. Economic growth could come from a wide cross-section of sectors.
00:58:58 What we need to have is economic growth that generates foreign exchange. And I think that's where we need to put all or a significant proportion of our efforts in moving forward.
00:59:08 Yeah. And, you know, Professor, and it's not the first time I've asked this question, so I'm going to ask again.
00:59:16 The theme of the budget, it was linked to efforts aimed at diversification.
00:59:25 And the question is, did the finance minister, you think, did he make out an argument for diversification and what the government is going to do?
00:59:39 Well, I think he would have made out in his judgment what he thought would lead to some degree of diversification.
00:59:47 But unless we aggressively address the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago, I think the pace of diversification would continue as it is now.
00:59:59 I think we have a system in which diversification is progressing only very slowly.
01:00:05 Diversification is progressing in a direction that is not generating as much foreign exchange as we would like.
01:00:12 Diversification is progressing in a direction that makes use of the Venezuelan laborers, but makes use of them by employing them significantly in the non-tradable sector.
01:00:22 So that what I saw in the budget was much more of what we saw in the previous years.
01:00:30 Now, that doesn't mean that there weren't areas in which there were sparks or opportunities for good.
01:00:37 One of the things that I think that we need to support and that was well received from the budget is the effort at manufacturing.
01:00:46 The manufacturing sector is one of the brightest spots in the Trinidad and Tobago economy.
01:00:51 It has been growing. Food, beverage and tobacco in particular has been growing really well.
01:00:56 And when I refer to the manufacturing sector, I have already removed the effect of petrochemical manufacturing and oil refining,
01:01:03 which tends to, in some people's judgment, change the values. I have removed that.
01:01:09 So I'm focusing on what we will call narrow manufacturing and not broad manufacturing,
01:01:14 where broad manufacturing is now manufacturing plus resource-based manufacturing.
01:01:19 I'm not including resource-based manufacturing.
01:01:22 So, and in this manufacturing sector, the work and the operation of the Ex-Im Bank comes through.
01:01:29 The Ex-Im Bank has been getting considerable amount of results in terms of pushing new exports that could earn foreign exchange in the manufacturing sector.
01:01:42 The minister did call out some numbers in that direction and we need to continue that effort.
01:01:47 But what we need in particular as well is that agriculture, we need more manufacturing to get to generate more foreign exchange
01:01:56 and agriculture exports and services exports to join the bandwagon of manufacturing exports,
01:02:03 so that overall, given the dormancy in the petroleum sector in terms of productive activity and production,
01:02:12 we get a combined manufacturing, agriculture and services exports that give us some semblance of economic activity,
01:02:22 as is linked to the volume that we see in the petroleum sector.
01:02:28 So I hope that makes sense.
01:02:31 Yeah. So the finance minister did speak to certain developments in the manufacturing and non-energy sector.
01:02:40 You referred to the situation with the Ex-Im Bank, but there's still a concern, Professor,
01:02:46 that not enough funds are being given to, let's say, the small businesses and medium-sized businesses,
01:02:54 and there has to be some sort of better arrangement for them so that they can survive.
01:03:04 Of course. I understand that concern and it's a very valid call.
01:03:08 The fact is, though, that our stock of foreign exchange has decreased considerably.
01:03:12 So in the context of this decreased pool of available foreign exchange,
01:03:18 the minister has to make some judgment in terms of how it will be allocated.
01:03:23 The only way, in my judgment, to increase the allocation to small businesses and to other businesses
01:03:31 is via that same diversification route, increasing the supply of foreign exchange
01:03:37 so that we have a greater, bigger pool from which to draw.
01:03:40 But as it stands, with the limited pool, I think we are down now to how much?
01:03:44 To about $6 billion approximately in the stock of reserves.
01:03:49 The foreign exchange debt is probably up to about $5 billion.
01:03:53 And so the minister has to be very careful now moving forward.
01:03:58 I mean, a few years ago, about 2014, we had close to $12 billion in stock of reserves,
01:04:06 and our debt would have probably been about, in 2014, would have probably been about $2 billion then
01:04:12 or $1.5 billion then.
01:04:14 So it's a change in the environment.
01:04:18 And thus the focus and the increased focus on trying to get the Ex-Im Bank to do more
01:04:24 whilst we push agriculture and services export, to me, is the way forward
01:04:29 in terms of stabilizing the quantity and the inflow of foreign exchange
01:04:36 to ensure that those same small businesses you mentioned are well serviced moving forward.
01:04:42 But you know, Professor, since the budget debate began, we have heard over and over
01:04:50 agriculture, agriculture, agriculture, agriculture.
01:04:53 And it is being seen in a sort of way as a panacea to some of the problems that economically, yeah,
01:05:01 in generating more funds and so on.
01:05:04 However, and I think that government has to be given some credit for some of the injection of funds
01:05:10 and so on in agriculture, but there are still a number of problems affecting agriculture in Trinidad and Tobago.
01:05:19 So my question is, there has to be something more to make agriculture more attractive
01:05:28 and for us to stop seeing agriculture as a bastard child in Trinidad and Tobago.
01:05:36 Yes, you are very correct.
01:05:38 Now, one of the things I would like you and the listeners to bear in mind is that
01:05:43 agricultural output per worker is about one-tenth that of manufacturing.
01:05:50 It's very low in comparison to manufacturing.
01:05:53 And putting more and more resources, labor resources, into agriculture is not the solution
01:05:59 unless you change the environment in which agriculture operates.
01:06:04 Now, in all fairness, I think it was Foster Cummings who recently introduced a program
01:06:12 in which more and more land, more and more opportunities in the agricultural sector
01:06:18 was made available to entrepreneurs, to young entrepreneurs,
01:06:23 and they were also afforded some degree of access to funding.
01:06:27 And if it is we get the technology to go with the new inputs into the agricultural sector,
01:06:34 in other words, we change the enabling environment and the functioning environment
01:06:38 so that we can get output per worker to rise, then we give agriculture a better chance.
01:06:44 But I maintain that if it is you have a situation in which the same formula is being used
01:06:55 with a lower level of agricultural output per worker, and you put more and more workers into agriculture,
01:07:01 then you lead to something called asymptotic stagnancy, and we don't want that at all.
01:07:05 So I think the government's focus on increasing the agricultural environment
01:07:11 and increasing the, changing the age, or changing the structure of the young people
01:07:18 that enter into the agricultural sector is critical.
01:07:22 I think using more technology is critical.
01:07:25 And I think in combination, as we bring more resources to help improve output per worker,
01:07:32 we can see improved performance from the agricultural sector,
01:07:37 but it's a lot of work to be done given the comparative output per worker in the agricultural sector
01:07:43 as we speak and other sectors of the economy.
01:07:46 That needs much more work.
01:07:48 Yeah. Are you impressed at all by some of the statements made by the energy minister recently?
01:07:53 He would have spoken about the Dragon Deal.
01:07:55 Before that, he would have spoken about investments in shagaramas,
01:07:59 he would have spoken about the manatee field and so on.
01:08:04 Well, those are good developments.
01:08:06 I mean, I wish the country the best.
01:08:08 I hope that we get more gas because 98% of our economic activity is correlated with gas production.
01:08:15 Then that's fantastic if we get an enhanced inflow of natural gas.
01:08:22 What you would want is, while the minister is focusing on this type of natural gas
01:08:29 and fossil fuel-based enhancing production levels in the medium term,
01:08:34 I noticed that in the budget, wind energy was mentioned.
01:08:38 And I would like to see that the intention of the Ministry of Planning
01:08:42 and the Ministry of Energy and Energy Industries to bring 5 gigawatts of wind energy on stream by 2040
01:08:50 is an excellent idea.
01:08:52 I think this is a defining moment in the future of Chiang Tabego.
01:08:57 If this were to happen, that would be extremely good.
01:09:02 Much more work needs to be done in terms of bringing this 5 gigawatts of wind energy
01:09:07 consisting of 2 gigawatts onshore wind energy and 3 gigawatts offshore wind energy has to be done.
01:09:14 I think, whilst the minister is putting all this effort into getting additional inflows of natural gas,
01:09:20 given that we have an existing structure of production downstream
01:09:24 that will benefit from this natural gas in the ammonia and methanol and whatever sectors,
01:09:29 I think it is critical that we also plan ahead and double our efforts
01:09:36 in terms of bringing this wind energy possible program on stream
01:09:41 so that as the grey hydrogen from the natural gas sector decreases,
01:09:47 we replace it in a slow, intelligent, consistent way with the green hydrogen
01:09:53 from renewable energy associated with the wind energy plants
01:09:58 and the Chiang Tabego economy, therefore get some degree of long-term sustainability as we move forward.
01:10:06 That's where I think a reasonable proportion of the efforts of the policy makers must lie
01:10:12 because it's a golden opportunity if we get this wind energy correct.
01:10:17 Professor, in recent days there have been concerns from members of the public
01:10:23 of price increases across the board.
01:10:27 Of course, these concerns follow the announcement by the Regulated Industries Commission
01:10:35 of proposed rate increases for electricity.
01:10:39 The suggestion, the recommendation has been from the business sector
01:10:43 that they believe that these increases are coming or have come to suddenly,
01:10:49 although they have said and they agree that increases have not come over the past 17 years,
01:10:55 but they believe that there is need for more consultation
01:10:58 and whatever proposed rate increases may come, it has to be done on a phased basis.
01:11:05 I can understand the argument made by both sides.
01:11:09 The government, I certainly agree with the need to cut down chances and subsidies.
01:11:14 We have put in too much of our budgetary outlay on chances and subsidies,
01:11:20 so I totally agree with cutting down on the subsidies and cutting down on the amount of chances,
01:11:25 and therefore if we use any money saved there when we do cut it down
01:11:30 and put it on capital injections in the economy, then you give the economy a fighting chance.
01:11:35 Let's just say you are selling doubles, and at the double stand you are selling 15 customers
01:11:42 because you have no moving space and just a limited platform from which to operate.
01:11:49 The only way to increase output and opportunity and provide more doubles and better doubles
01:11:54 and probably employ more workers to help you sell doubles is if you get an improved setting
01:12:01 with better working space and better working conditions in which to operate.
01:12:06 In a similar way, if we were to reduce the chances and subsidies,
01:12:10 including cutting subsidies to WASA and to T&T,
01:12:17 then the extra revenues that we generate, if we use that to create widened productive capacity
01:12:24 to improve our roads and improve our very same water supply and our very same electricity supply
01:12:30 and our structure and flow of educational services and our structure and flow of health services,
01:12:36 then by expanding the supply capacity of the economy, we give the economy a better chance
01:12:42 in the long run of responding and being more adaptive and being able to earn more foreign exchange.
01:12:48 The challenge is in the short run. In the short run, I also understand the cries of the people
01:12:53 in the sense that it is being said that we are 17% smaller today as compared to 2015 in terms of real GDP.
01:13:02 And because real GDP is 17% smaller, and by extension, real per capita GDP would also be smaller than in 2015,
01:13:10 what is required is a slower introduction of the transfers and subsidies
01:13:15 so that the burden of adjustment by the consumer is more manageable.
01:13:20 That's also a reasonable argument, and policymakers will therefore have to take on board the cries and comments of the people
01:13:27 and come up with the optimal intervention that satisfies their need to lower transfers and subsidies
01:13:35 and widen capital space, but at the same time not put households under extremely harsh conditions
01:13:43 and undue hardship more than is necessary so you have a sequential phasing, and in the middle, both groups are satisfied.
01:13:52 So I hope some type of dialogue continues and that an intelligent outcome takes place
01:13:59 in which the state gets to meet its objective and consumers are not overburdened and unable to subsist as they would like.
01:14:09 Yeah. According to a story in the newspaper today, there were $1.5 billion in closed investments in 2023,
01:14:20 which generated 1,453 jobs, so says Trade and Industry or Trade Minister Paula Gopi-Skoon.
01:14:30 In the budget, the Finance Minister also boasted, also spoke about an increase in the employment rate,
01:14:38 an improved employment rate. How do you see this?
01:14:43 Now in the first comment you said $1.5 billion in closed, as in clothing?
01:14:50 Closed, C-L-O-S-E-D, closed investments in 2023.
01:14:55 Okay, so in other words that was injected into the economy and it generated more opportunities.
01:14:59 Yeah.
01:15:00 That's good. And we need to, so in order to move forward, we need to keep saying,
01:15:07 how can we increase the production of goods that fetch foreign exchange and reduce the production of non-essential, non-tradable goods?
01:15:16 That's the language from the COVID period and I think it is still relevant as we move forward.
01:15:21 How do we produce more goods that fetch foreign exchange and how do we reduce the production of non-essential, non-tradable goods that use foreign exchange?
01:15:32 If it is we were able to get US $1.5 billion injected into the economy and it generated a wide category of jobs as you mentioned, that is excellent.
01:15:41 We take that. Now with the labour market, you have to always be concerned when you see numbers like 3.7%.
01:15:48 The 3.7% is correct. I have great confidence in CSO.
01:15:54 The challenge is, while the 3.7% exists, there is a very high economically inactive population.
01:16:02 And so when you talk about the labour market, so as not to provide a skewed understanding of it,
01:16:08 you must mention the low labour force participation rate, which is about 56% in Toronto and Tobago.
01:16:14 And I think only Haiti and Guyana are lower than Toronto and Tobago in the Caribbean, whereas the Bahamas is close to 72%.
01:16:21 And you have to mention the size of the economically inactive population, which is about 460,000 people, if I remember correctly.
01:16:31 That's a huge number. And when people are economically inactive, they are not contributing to pension schemes, they are not contributing to VAT,
01:16:39 they are not contributing to the government for earning of fiscal revenues.
01:16:45 So we have a problem there. And therefore, I recommend that we take a deep dive look at the labour market
01:16:53 and also include a part of that deep dive understanding of what is going perversely wrong with the labour market.
01:17:00 We also include an understanding of where the Venezuelans are working, and therefore their impact on our foreign exchange situation
01:17:09 and what we could do to change the structure of their employment and their contribution towards our foreign exchange situation.
01:17:18 Because it is possible from the data that I do see that most of the Venezuelans are working in sectors that use foreign exchange.
01:17:27 And when they leave these places that they work and they go to Massy Store and Paismat and other places, they spend money there,
01:17:34 and therefore they also use more foreign exchange there. So the Venezuelans, while it's very useful and while we have a humanitarian requirement
01:17:43 to help support them while they are going through problems in their country and they are here,
01:17:48 we have to ensure that they are not having a negative externality impact on our foreign exchange situation.
01:17:56 Yeah, Professor, it's always good speaking with you. Thank you very much for your contribution this morning. Until next time.
01:18:02 Okay, take care and thank you for the interview.
01:18:04 All right, bye for now. So it's time for a quick break with this image taken at Las Cuevas Bay.
01:18:09 It's from Kathleen Williams in Conupia. We're coming back.
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01:19:36 Morning. Listen, I've noticed something odd. There are new people at MBOB UOD.
01:19:43 Girl, the man is passing up and down in front of here with a set of women.
01:19:48 I really noticed some women living there, you know, and they can't even say as much as good morning.
01:19:53 Well, listen, I wonder if it's human trafficking. You think it's that?
01:19:57 So, how can you spot and identify perpetrators and victims of trafficking?
01:20:02 Many victims are found living and working together in the same place and sleep in shared and inappropriate spaces.
01:20:09 Victims work excessively long hours. They often sleep in the daytime and work long nights.
01:20:15 They are often escorted everywhere they go and may appear to be malnourished.
01:20:20 They may show signs of physical abuse, drug and alcohol use, and may also appear withdrawn, fearful or intimidated.
01:20:27 Victims who are migrants are often not in possession of their identity or immigration documents and have irregular immigration status.
01:20:35 Perpetrators can be male or female and may appear to be managing or controlling the victims.
01:20:41 And they may even at times appear to be the victim's best friend, boyfriend or employer.
01:20:48 We are the counter trafficking unit of the Ministry of National Security, Trinidad and Tobago, safeguarding human life.
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