00:00 We can speak now to Avi Meierstein, who is the founder and president of the Alliance for Middle East Peace,
00:06 an interconnected community of peace builders who joins us from Washington.
00:11 Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
00:13 Can I just start by asking you about your reading of the timing of this attack by Hamas?
00:19 I mean, obviously, some domestic political divisions this year in Israel,
00:24 and the country was quite distracted, I think it's fair to say.
00:27 Do you think that accounts for the timing and perhaps the shortcomings by the intelligence services?
00:33 There's lots of speculation about what might have prompted the timing,
00:39 although I think many people have noted that the sophistication and the scope of the attack suggests that it was quite some time in the making.
00:47 But there were a lot of things going on in the background,
00:50 the discussion of a Saudi-Israel-U.S. deal for normalization, which of course would put Iran and Hamas,
01:00 one of its proxies in a different situation from the rest of the region.
01:03 Of course, maybe a sense of weakness perceived within Israeli society
01:09 because of the very significant upheaval over the judicial legislation and the democracy protests.
01:17 Perhaps those things fed into it, but it also seems like Hamas has made a very clear statement,
01:23 what they stand for in terms of violence against civilians.
01:28 And that's something that they are apparently ready to do at any moment.
01:33 And all the while, I mean, something like the two-state solution and the peace process,
01:38 I mean, it seemed distant last week.
01:41 I mean, this week it seems an even more distant prospect, doesn't it?
01:47 In some ways, yes. And I honestly think it's too soon for people to even hear the words to talk about what comes next.
01:56 Certainly in a positive sense. I will note that the last time Israel had a surprise attack like this, the Yom Kippur War in 1973,
02:05 it was by Egypt and the other Arab countries around Israel, and four years later there was the Camp David Accords
02:12 bringing peace that has stuck since then between them.
02:16 So that was unthinkable, certainly at the time of that war.
02:19 So things do change. Things are possible. But right now we're still in a place of utter shock and deep concern, I think, for people all around.
02:31 There are 14 million Israelis and Palestinians between the river and the sea,
02:35 and they are trapped right now by a generational conflict that is turning a land that should be full of so much promise into a blood-soaked land of tears.
02:48 Indeed, I mean, and so much has changed in the last 50 years.
02:52 And you mentioned Egypt and, of course, Jordan, another country with which Israel now has diplomatic normalized ties.
03:00 Then there are lots of other countries, well, not lots, but a few other countries that in the last three or four years have entered the fray as well.
03:07 Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Morocco and Sudan. You mentioned Saudi Arabia. That's obviously not happened yet.
03:13 I just want to ask you, I mean, what influence do you think having those new-ish allies from the region, from the Arab world, what influence that might have on next steps?
03:27 Well, I think the hope in the best of cases from the Abraham Accords and the normalization generally is that it could be part of a broader, comprehensive package where the Israeli-Palestinian issue,
03:41 which is really the existential one for Israel and for the Palestinians, of course, that that could be addressed.
03:47 And although perhaps some people thought that the Abraham Accords might have been a way to put that issue away and ignore it,
03:55 the best case for it always was that it would create an environment where you could actually have a supportive regional atmosphere that would allow the parties to actually resolve that once and for all.
04:09 So if you're asking about the potential of other countries to be involved in solutions, I think that remains a possibility.
04:16 And we see even now with the smoke still heavy over everyone's heads that there are regional contacts that are being made to try to address the violence,
04:28 to try to address the over 100 Israeli hostages that are now being held someplace, probably many places in Gaza, including, I believe, a friend of mine.
04:40 The regional actors are potentially able to play some role in all of that.
04:46 And hopefully that's something that could be built on.
04:50 And one of the other things we've been talking about with our correspondents in the region this evening is this danger of spillover,
04:57 spillover from Israel's northern border into southern Lebanon and the conflict taking on a new dimension on a new front.
05:06 Obviously, Iran looming large in the background on all fronts.
05:11 I mean, do you see this conflict having the potential to broaden into a regional conflict?
05:20 I sure hope not. But if you ask me or frankly anyone else on Friday, if I saw the potential for an unprecedented attack like this by Hamas, I would not have imagined it.
05:31 So I think that is a testament and a good reminder to all of us that things that we don't want to happen can happen.
05:40 And at each moment, hopefully we're making the best decisions to minimize those bad choices.
05:46 I also would say that part of the reason we're in this situation, this is not the reason for this weekend's attack,
05:53 but it's the reason that we're even talking about this at all 30 years after what was attempted to be a peace process through Oslo, is that we never solved this conflict.
06:04 And we've had this dynamic in the decades since where extremists were able to push the agenda in their direction
06:14 and where a lot of policy actually ended up emboldening the extremists and weakening the moderates.
06:21 And that's something that hopefully when the fog of all of this terrible pain and bloodshed lifts,
06:29 that people will revisit and start to look at how they define us versus them,
06:35 instead of looking at it as Israelis versus Palestinians, to realize it's people that are willing to live in peace and figure out a way to solve this conflict versus the people that are just going to fight to the death.
06:49 Just lastly, I mean, there was a great piece in The New York Times at the weekend.
06:52 I don't know if you saw it, by a journalist by the name of Friedman who quoted Professor Victor Friedman,
06:58 who is not actually a relation at Jezreel Valley College in Israel.
07:03 And that professor said this horrid situation is still an opportunity.
07:08 It sounds as though you're in agreement with that general idea.
07:15 Again, it's very hard to say those words in this moment because we're all just in so much pain and shock.
07:21 But I do think that this has the potential to shake things up in a dramatic way,
07:27 to have people revisit and look at the way they were seeing things before.
07:32 The potential is for that to go in either direction, of course.
07:35 And that's actually why I am proud to work with hundreds of organizations and tens of thousands of people on the ground, Israelis and Palestinians,
07:42 who are trying to build the partnerships so that it spins it in the right direction,
07:46 so that people can see that they can actually work together even in moments like this.
07:52 And so, yes, I do think there is opportunity. There's always opportunity.
07:56 We have to continue to push towards a solution to this conflict so that everyone can live in peace and security and dignity and freedom.
08:05 Okay. Avi Meir Stein, the founder and the president of the Alliance for Middle East Peace in Washington.
08:10 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us this evening.
08:13 Thank you, Thomas.
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