00:00 It's time now for perspective.
00:02 Over a week on from the devastating flash floods
00:05 that washed whole neighborhoods to the sea in eastern Libya,
00:08 killing thousands, Libya is in dire need of assistance.
00:11 Although years of war and division
00:13 mean the country is badly ill-equipped even
00:15 to coordinate the international help that's been offered.
00:18 And similar criticism has been directed at Morocco
00:21 after it chose not to accept all of the international aid
00:24 on the table following its massive earthquake
00:26 a week and a half ago that killed some 3,000 people.
00:29 My guest today is Tarek Megharisi,
00:32 Libya expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations.
00:35 Thank you so much for speaking to us here on France 24 today.
00:38 I'd like to start by talking about Libya.
00:40 How would you characterize the situation on the ground
00:43 right now in the east of the country?
00:47 Thank you very much for having me on, firstly.
00:49 It's still chaotic.
00:51 I mean, I was thinking today it's
00:52 been a full week since the catastrophe first occurred.
00:58 The first half of that week, the survivors
01:00 were spent alone trying to deal with the magnitude
01:03 of the catastrophe which befell them.
01:05 And the second half of the week, they've
01:07 been fighting their own government, their own army,
01:10 to try to continue the aid and the relief effort,
01:14 despite the efforts of these institutions to exert control
01:20 and to look good, which is quite a horrible thing.
01:25 What would you say is the greatest risk to survivors
01:28 on the ground right now, Tarek?
01:31 Well, there's a magnitude of threats coming towards them.
01:36 I mean, firstly, you have the threat of disease
01:40 from stagnant water.
01:42 Wells and reservoirs have been corrupted by the floodwater.
01:45 There are insects which can spread disease.
01:48 People are still burying bodies a week later.
01:50 There's the risk of aid not reaching
01:52 people who are cut off, who are starving, who are thirsty.
01:57 Then there is the kind of medium-term threats.
02:00 If these people are not rehoused appropriately,
02:03 then when future rains come in the winter,
02:07 landslides could come.
02:08 The ground under their feet remains
02:10 unstable after the events of the last week.
02:12 So unfortunately, these poor survivors
02:15 are still surrounded by a plethora of threats.
02:19 Now, European countries say they want to help.
02:21 They say they're ready to deploy help.
02:23 How, at this stage, when the political situation in Libya
02:26 is so fragmented, so tense, should aid from Europe
02:29 into Libya be managed?
02:32 That's ironic, actually, because of the political situation
02:36 in Libya and because of the chaos on the ground,
02:41 I think the best vehicle for assistance
02:44 is nation-to-nation assistance.
02:46 Now, I know that this brings its own difficulties for countries
02:49 because countries engage with other countries.
02:51 They engage with governments.
02:53 And in Libya, government does not
02:56 control the territory in which the catastrophe happened.
03:00 So there are coordination problems within Libya.
03:02 There are political jealousies and rivalries that take place.
03:05 But if you look at the teams that
03:07 are working on the ground now, you
03:09 have search and rescue teams from a number
03:11 of different countries.
03:12 You have field hospitals being set up
03:14 by a number of different countries, including by France.
03:17 And as the Libyan National Army, the forces
03:21 in control of the region, try to take control of the aid effort
03:26 and actually end up hindering the efforts of local aid
03:29 and response workers, it seems more and more
03:32 that unless you have the backing and the protection of a nation
03:35 state behind you, you simply won't
03:37 be allowed to work effectively.
03:40 Now, you've talked about it already, of course.
03:42 Libya governed by two rival administrations,
03:45 one in the West, one in the East,
03:47 and has been, it's fair to say, at war for years now.
03:51 How did this-- sorry, how did this situation
03:54 pave the way for last Sunday's disaster?
03:59 Well, in a number of ways.
04:02 I mean, firstly, it's the years, if not the decades,
04:06 of negligence, of contempt from the government to the--
04:12 from the governments to the governed.
04:14 And this comes from Gaddafi's era, even.
04:17 The dams which broke had not been maintained for decades.
04:21 And of course, this became more acute in the last few years
04:24 as politicians across Libya, whether they're
04:28 in the Eastern government or the Western government,
04:30 they have no accountability.
04:32 They have no local constituency.
04:34 They feel as if they cannot be moved.
04:36 And so they have no compunction to care for their people
04:40 or to provide anything for their people.
04:44 And so there were warnings last year
04:47 that this dam could break.
04:49 They were essentially ignored.
04:51 Money was appropriated to repair the dam.
04:53 The project was never carried out because of these issues
04:56 of political rivalry.
04:59 As the storms approached, meteorological experts
05:03 tried to warn the local military authorities
05:06 that this storm is coming, and it could be disastrous,
05:08 especially for the city of Damna, but other places as
05:11 well.
05:11 And what did these military authorities do?
05:14 They ordered a curfew.
05:15 They locked the people in the homes which
05:17 would become their graves.
05:19 And by the time they realized the gravity of their mistake,
05:22 it was far too late.
05:24 And the only reason why this happened
05:25 is because the city of Damna, the local people
05:29 are not allowed to have political representation that
05:32 actually represents their views, their desires,
05:35 and their needs.
05:36 They are instead run by a military administration, who
05:38 none of them asked for, who are essentially
05:41 prioritizing their sense of control
05:43 and their sense of looking good over the well-being
05:47 of their people.
05:48 And so what was a natural disaster
05:50 became a man-made catastrophe.
05:52 And you cannot articulate enough the scale of this catastrophe,
05:58 especially on a human level.
06:00 Would it then, in your opinion, be extremely naive
06:02 to even hope there may be some accountability
06:05 on the part of the Eastern Libyan authorities,
06:08 considering the sheer scale of the destruction in Derna
06:12 last Sunday?
06:14 I mean, you would hope so.
06:15 And alongside the grief, there is a huge feeling
06:18 of anger and frustration, not just
06:20 towards the Eastern Libyan authorities,
06:21 towards all of the Libyan authorities, because none of
06:23 them have done their jobs.
06:25 None of them have governed their people.
06:27 And they have spent a massive amount of money
06:29 to not govern their people.
06:31 But unfortunately, all of them, from the parliament
06:34 to the governments to the military,
06:36 who are more political than military,
06:38 they are already shirking any responsibility.
06:41 The speaker of the parliament told off the Libyan people
06:43 for daring to blame him and the other politicians
06:45 for the disaster which befell, claiming it was an act of God.
06:49 Meanwhile, the army is out in the streets, the LNA, sorry,
06:52 arresting people and trying to clamp down
06:55 on any would-be dissenters.
06:57 So they already feel like this pressure could come.
07:00 I think now, unfortunately, as always over the last 10 years,
07:05 if the desires of the Libyan people are to be felt,
07:08 and we will get some accountability,
07:10 and they will have to be supported in their cause
07:14 and in their push by the international community,
07:16 from the UN down to all the nation-states that
07:19 are involved in Libya and have been involved
07:21 for the last 10 years or so.
07:23 I'd like to switch our conversation now
07:25 to a discussion of what happened in Morocco a week and a half
07:28 ago, widespread accusations of mismanagement
07:30 of the aftermath of Morocco's 6.8 magnitude earthquake.
07:34 Do you think that that growing anger
07:36 could pose a threat to local and national government in any way?
07:41 I think in Morocco, much like in Libya,
07:44 the authorities are well used to riding
07:46 the waves of public discontent and emerging
07:49 on the other side.
07:50 I mean, even remember as far back as 2011,
07:53 when the Arab Spring swept everywhere else,
07:56 Morocco was the state or were the authorities that most
08:02 effectively rode that wave.
08:03 And so I think like in Libya, the dispossessed, the victims
08:08 will rail against the authorities,
08:11 but at the end of the day, they will weather that storm.
08:14 Now in Morocco, aid was accepted from four countries,
08:18 including the UK, Qatar, the UAE, also Spain,
08:22 but not from other countries, including France.
08:25 Do you think that was a mistake on the part of authorities
08:28 in Rabat?
08:31 I don't think that they see it as a mistake.
08:33 I think it's a very calculated and manicured decision
08:36 on their behalf.
08:38 You know, it's these four countries you list,
08:40 they all have two things in common.
08:43 One is that they are all kingdoms,
08:45 like the Kingdom of Morocco.
08:48 And secondly, they have all been quite close to Rabat
08:51 on their Western Sahara policy.
08:53 And the Moroccans have said time and time again
08:56 that all of their foreign policy comes
08:58 through the lens of the Western Sahara issue.
09:00 And this is another example of it.
09:02 So perhaps it's not the best thing for survivors
09:07 and those on the ground, the victims,
09:09 will see it as a mistake.
09:11 But from the state's position and from the state's
09:14 perspective, I think they had the luxury of choosing
09:16 who they would like support from.
09:18 And they picked very carefully to ensure
09:20 that it made their position seem more effective
09:26 and it kind of expanded on their current base.
09:31 And do you think there's any chance in the weeks and months
09:34 to come, European countries who want to offer aid to Libya,
09:38 to Morocco, this is a chance for European countries
09:41 to, to a certain degree, repair strained relations
09:44 with both countries?
09:46 Absolutely.
09:47 I think it will take some effort for them to do so,
09:49 given the political obstacles in both countries
09:53 that we just discussed.
09:54 But if you go on the street in either Morocco or in Libya
09:58 or elsewhere in the region right now,
10:00 what is the opinion of Europeans?
10:02 It's usually that, you know, they will come and talk
10:06 with their heart on their sleeve about Ukraine.
10:09 But when it comes to us, to North Africans, to Arabs
10:13 and so on, we are just an arena to corral migrants in
10:17 and to fight terrorists in and to always be kept
10:20 at an arm's length.
10:21 You know, the European values do not apply here.
10:24 So please don't discuss them.
10:25 But this is an opportunity to show why that's incorrect,
10:29 to show that, you know, Europe can build relations
10:32 or people to people relationships
10:34 and what they can offer the people.
10:37 And to start a new, yeah, a new platform
10:39 for a new relationship that will actually get the people
10:42 on their side, which in turn will become more helpful
10:45 for future economic relationship building
10:48 for when Europeans need support on crises like Ukraine
10:51 and in general, expanding the European circle.
10:56 Nice to be able to end on at least a slightly
10:58 optimistic note.
10:59 Tarek Megharisi, Libya expert at the European Council
11:02 on Foreign Relations.
11:03 Thank you so much for speaking to us on France 24 today.
11:05 Thank you very much for having me on.
11:07 [BLANK_AUDIO]
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