- 1 week ago
Episode 6: The Challenge – Egyptian Arizona. Host Marc Ford and Rena Harp unearth one of America’s strangest archaeological enigmas. The persistent rumors of ancient Egyptian artifacts discovered deep inside a hidden cave system in the Grand Canyon. According to a 1909 Arizona Gazette report, Smithsonian-backed explorers allegedly stumbled upon a vast underground citadel filled with hieroglyph-covered walls, statues of Egyptian deities, ritual objects, and even mummified remains. Yet the Smithsonian has always denied the find ever existed, no artifacts were ever publicly displayed, and every official record has mysteriously vanished. Was it an elaborate newspaper hoax, proof of a lost civilization, or one of the most successful government cover-ups in history? Join us as we sift through the scant clues and enduring questions that still haunt the canyon’s shadows. Level Up!
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00:00And now, for the moment you've all been waiting for...
00:03Tipster! Tipster! Tipster!
00:13Rina!
00:14I know. Finally. Finally!
00:16You have no idea how excited I am about this.
00:18I mean, I love, love, love these topics.
00:21I gotta tell you.
00:22So when I was a kid, I think the second book, adult book I ever got as a kid...
00:27So the first book I ever got was, I think, the trilogy of Lord of the Rings.
00:31But I think the second book I got was this unsolved mysteries book.
00:35And to this day, I still have it. I have it preserved.
00:39It's in shrink wrap. I even put it in a Ziploc bag.
00:42But I absolutely love talking about things all over the world.
00:48Mysteries. Not, you know, conspiracy theories and all that kind of stuff.
00:51But true mysteries around the world.
00:54Unexplained. And to this day, have still been...
00:57Have still not been solved.
00:59And so, I'm so blessed and lucky that I have a friend like you.
01:03Who does so much research on this topic.
01:06I am tremendously excited about this.
01:08As my husband says, tons of useless knowledge in my head.
01:12So how did you get excited about this?
01:14I mean, was there something about when you were a kid?
01:16Like, you got into this?
01:18Was it like a parent?
01:19Was it something you learned in school?
01:20Was it just something you read?
01:23Like, how did you get into this?
01:25Honestly, my dad, who passed away when I was 10, was a stay-at-home dad.
01:30He had heart problems.
01:31And my mother worked out of the house.
01:33And he is half Cherokee.
01:36Actually, his mother was half Cherokee.
01:38So that would make him, what, one-eighth of Cherokee, I think.
01:41He would tell me the stories, the Cherokee legend and lore.
01:44Now, we lived in Ohio.
01:45And he was born and raised in North Carolina.
01:48And he would tell me stories about the little people, which I think was just to kind of get me
01:53to go to sleep.
01:53And, you know, it's bedtime.
01:55Go on.
01:55Go to sleep.
01:56And never really thought anything about them.
01:58And I knew all the Cherokee legends and lores probably, gosh, before I was 12.
02:04I knew pretty much all of them and really never was involved in anything like that.
02:08So how did that evolve into you doing so much research on?
02:15Well, like, for instance, as you know, I set up this podcast to be challenged, right?
02:20So I'm just setting up all these challenges, whether it's physical, spiritual, whether it's mental, whether it's, you know, it's
02:28an activity like jet skiing across the English Channel or spending a week of, like, no sugar, whatever it is.
02:34And one of the things that I want to be challenged on is to expand my knowledge horizon.
02:42And so I'm tremendously excited about this series that we're going to be doing together.
02:46And so you challenged me to do a little bit of research on Egyptian-style artifacts in Arizona.
02:54So tell me more about that.
02:56So first of all, tell me more about what got you into wanting to research these topics and then this
03:02particular topic that we're going to be talking about today.
03:05OK, well, this particular topic, as I, you know, grew up, had kids of my own, then had some free
03:12time.
03:12I started researching things.
03:14And one thing led to another.
03:15My very first dive into all of this was researching a story.
03:19My father used to tell me about the little people.
03:21And he told me that they were, you know, in the area, a local area here called Chimney Rock area.
03:27And I'm thinking, yeah, OK, so North Carolina, right.
03:30In Henderson County.
03:32But when I, my husband and I had went over to Chimney Rock, took the kids and, you know, it's
03:37a beautiful park.
03:39And you go on top of this mountain, get to take pictures and see everything.
03:42It's beautiful.
03:43I stepped into one of the little shops and they had a book called The Cherokee Little People.
03:49And I'm like, oh, this might be something to this.
03:52So I bought the book and I read it and then I started researching it.
03:56It just it was fascinating that my father was it was a real story.
04:00It wasn't it wasn't just something he made up.
04:02And so the more I read, the more people I found and got in contact with.
04:08One such is Mary Joyce.
04:10She is a professor, a retired professor from Western Carolina University who actually wrote a book that the Cherokee Little
04:17People were real.
04:18So I got in touch with her and spoke a lot with her.
04:21And we went over different stories and I kind of just kind of dove into that whole little people thing.
04:27But in the meantime, I started it's like it's like little red flags were coming along.
04:33I was I was following all these flags.
04:35I was finding different things to research, going down different rabbit holes, as it may be.
04:40And one of them was a story I had heard a long time ago.
04:43And I think it was on one of those ancient alien TV shows or something about G.E.
04:49Kincaid and his discovery in the Grand Canyon.
04:52I thought that was pretty interesting.
04:54I don't know if you know anything about that story.
04:57Well, I mean, that's what this is.
04:58This is G.E.
04:59Kincaid is about the artifacts, the Egyptian artifacts, not just Egyptian, that was found in the Grand Canyon in Arizona.
05:06Like I said, everything kind of leads down the same paths.
05:10All these things were just popping up.
05:12And I just started researching all these different topics.
05:14But as far as the Egyptian artifacts and the things, it wasn't just Egyptian artifacts that were found in the
05:20Grand Canyon.
05:20So this it all stems from a newspaper article in 1909 from the Arizona Gazette.
05:28That's what it was.
05:30And they had released an article where they stated that this G.E.
05:34Kincaid.
05:35Well, let me back up.
05:36Let me tell you the story about G.E.
05:37Kincaid and how this came to be.
05:39So just a precursor.
05:41So Teddy Roosevelt in 1908, just so you know, I'm a big historian, too.
05:45He had declared that the Grand Canyon was going to start being off limits to timber and mining operations, which
05:52meant they were doing timber and mining.
05:55And obviously, that's why they're going to cut it off to all the Americans.
05:59And it would take, I think, Congress passed maybe 11 years later.
06:02They passed.
06:03OK, you know, it's going to be a national park.
06:05So there you go.
06:05No more doing that kind of stuff in the Grand Canyon.
06:08And so this G.E.
06:10Kincaid there is a strange character.
06:13I had read an article, not in the Gazette, but another newspaper that coincidentally you cannot locate anymore, that this
06:20guy had knew that they were that this is going to happen.
06:23So he wanted to go locate the minerals and stuff before everything got shut off because he figured it was
06:29prime pickings.
06:29And this is back in early 1900s, 1909.
06:32And so what he did is he got his boat and he took his camera and his flashlights and stuff
06:38like that.
06:38And he was going down the Colorado River and he went so far down into the Grand Canyon and he
06:43started noticing the deeper he got into it.
06:46There were sediment marks or like almost like burn marks, but more sediment marks.
06:52And he was seeing these like two and three thousand feet above where he was at.
06:55And the first thing in his mind is, how did they get there?
06:58How is that there?
06:59So he parked his boat and he was trying to he was climbing around, trying to find a way up
07:05to it.
07:05And he did.
07:07He found some manmade stairs up to these open caves, these open caverns.
07:14Now, that doesn't sound like a completely unreasonable thing because we know there were Native Americans in that area as
07:20well.
07:20So, you know, they could have lived in there as well, which is what some of the theories are.
07:26But when he got in there, he had his flashlight.
07:29And as soon as he walked in, it like opened up into this massive cave system.
07:35And the first thing he found hieroglyphics, what he considered Egyptian hieroglyphics on the walls.
07:42And what led him to assume they were Egyptian and not just another language?
07:47Because they looked like pharaohs and they had the dog, the horus and things like that.
07:52So he recognized that.
07:54He recognized the symbols.
07:57So he matched it against existing Egyptians.
08:00Existing Egyptians.
08:01Like the obliques and things like that.
08:02Right.
08:03And also, remember, this is him telling this story after he got back down and out of there.
08:08He went to that newspaper and also got word to the Smithsonian.
08:11So there's two different versions of this.
08:13One is he had worked for the Smithsonian, according to the Gazette.
08:18He had worked for the Smithsonian for over 30 years.
08:21So he was a member of the Smithsonian.
08:24He was a part time archaeologist.
08:26And he was he was out there going into the caves and stuff like that.
08:31But then again, the other story is he was going there to try to mine and try to find some
08:35gold, silver and even copper at the time.
08:38So there's two different versions of that.
08:40But the actual Arizona Gazette stated that he was working for the Smithsonian for over 30 years is what he
08:46stated to them.
08:47And he gave them a list of things that he was finding.
08:50And then the Gazette even wrote that he even went that they even went back.
08:54I mean, the Smithsonian showed up with 40 scientists and just all these archaeologists.
09:00All these people showed up according to this news report.
09:03So the question is, is it real?
09:06I believe it is.
09:07That's my opinion.
09:08But the things that he found, the things that were described in that news, one newspaper article is all you
09:14can find now.
09:15But I assure you, I have found other references to that in later newspaper articles that lead me to believe
09:22that that newspaper article is real.
09:25If you look it up today, they label it online as a hoax, as it's not real.
09:31It was sensationalized.
09:32Because they're understanding now that they can't continue to do that because there were other people later on in the
09:38years that were finding other caves with other Native American items in these caves.
09:44So it's a whole, it wasn't real, was it not real type of thing.
09:48But the things that he found that were described to the newspaper, you can't describe those kind of things in
09:53the detail that he did.
09:55But does these caves not still exist or what's the status?
09:59They do still exist, as you know, or maybe you don't know, parts of the Grand Canyon, including that area,
10:05are a no-fly zone, no-go zone.
10:08You can't get anywhere in there without being turned away by military.
10:11So what do you do?
10:12You can't even fly over it.
10:13So anyway, just to go back to what he found, he found not just Egyptian mummies, all of which were
10:20male Egyptian mummies.
10:22They didn't find any children or any women.
10:26These mummies were at like a 30-degree angle, and they were laid into a carved out, kind of like
10:33a slab for them to lay back on.
10:35And they were wrapped up in dark material.
10:38So, and again, this is all according to this newspaper article, and he also found what would be considered an
10:45ironworks room.
10:47It looks like they were melting copper and, you know, things that they, whoever was living here should not have,
10:52according to our history, should not have had the knowledge to be able to do.
10:55They were making hooks.
10:57They were making out of copper.
10:58They were making weaponry, you know, weapons like swords and stuff like that.
11:03But, you know, that doesn't make any sense.
11:05One thing they did find is why they don't consider it just Egyptian was they found a statue of what
11:13we would consider a Buddha statue, legs crossed, and this was carved into the canyon.
11:20This was carved into the wall.
11:21It was, I think they said, 20 to 30 feet high.
11:25It had its legs crossed.
11:27It had two lotus flowers in its hand.
11:30I mean, very strange things to be having in an America grand canyon.
11:34It just doesn't, it doesn't compute.
11:36That's why people weren't convinced that this was really there.
11:39But the detail, the actual detail that this man gave to this newspaper, who they now say is completely falsified,
11:47is just, it's amazing.
11:49I mean, it's hard to find that newspaper article, but there's a lot of them online that people have been
11:53sharing and stuff.
11:55And around what period was all this found?
11:58Did he discover this?
12:00The actual article came out in 1909.
12:03The headline was Explorations in the Grand Canyon.
12:07They abbreviate it, and I have a copy of that article, but what they do is they try to blur
12:11it so you can't read all of it.
12:12But one thing I was reading right before I got on here was, and this is, and I'm a historian,
12:18so it sounds odd to me when they give you information that you really don't know why they're giving it.
12:21And in the newspaper article, they mentioned that Mr. Kincaid was the first white person born in Idaho.
12:30And I'm like, what does that matter?
12:32I don't understand.
12:33And then they went on to say that he was a hunter and an archaeologist, and he had been working
12:38for the Smithsonian for over 30 years.
12:40Now, the Smithsonian started back, I think it was in 1846, I think it was, if I'm not mistaken.
12:48So he would have been working there.
12:50Gosh, let's see.
12:52Yeah, the Smithsonian started in 1846 by a private investor from England who had actually, by the way, never stepped
13:00foot and never saw the Smithsonian we have in the U.S.
13:02And he worked there, let's see, 1876, I guess, is when he started with the Smithsonian, according to this newspaper
13:10article.
13:11And again, this newspaper article had so much detail, not just about when he worked.
13:16Did it have any photographs?
13:17Did it have any images of the artifacts that were selected?
13:20It did not, because as the story goes, and you can't even find, like, follow-ups.
13:25And there were follow-ups.
13:27You can go back and find old TV shows, probably not around anymore, but if you could locate them.
13:32I remember seeing some where they did follow-ups.
13:34These newspaper people had done follow-ups, you know, like a month later, what happened to all these things this
13:39guy claimed to have found.
13:40And people did recall seeing or hearing tell of a group of archaeologists coming in, scientists coming in, all taking
13:49boats and going down there, you know, and getting up to that site.
13:53And so whatever happened to all that stuff, I don't know.
13:58Are they covering up?
13:59Probably.
14:00I mean, what's your theory?
14:01Where do you assume it's all being collected and stored?
14:05Well, I do believe it probably was sent to the Smithsonian, but just like everything else that I've researched on
14:10other things, such as, you know, giants and giant bones and all this.
14:14Anything that really gets sent to the Smithsonian that is controversial in any way or may change the history as
14:20we know it kind of gets lost and disappears.
14:23And that's just that, in my opinion, is a fact because there's been other things that people have researched, know
14:32that it's been there, you know, and they've even admitted to losing items that have been donated or retrieved.
14:39Oh, yeah, sure, sure.
14:40Have there been any Native American tribes in that region that or that area that have validated it?
14:47There have been a lot of Native American tribes.
14:51I mean, quite a few, actually, and they have their own stories about, you know, what went on.
14:54But the funny thing is, and I can tell you about that in a minute, but because there was stories
15:00of later archaeologists in the 20s and 30s that were finding caves further down or further in as it would
15:09be.
15:10Not further down into the canyon, but further in where they had found these same kind of caves, not as
15:14high up, but had seen Native American artifacts in there.
15:18And they're saying it's anything from like the Hopis or the other name of them.
15:24Oh, my gosh, I can't think of the other.
15:26There's two other tribes that lived in that area.
15:28And right now I can't think of them.
15:29But there were other things found.
15:31And the crazy thing is there were also mummies found and there were mummies of children.
15:37Now, as far as anybody knew, the Native Americans didn't wrap their children or they're dead up in like mummies.
15:43But apparently that's that's that's what they're trying to claim, that these were Native American places that these they lived
15:51in their everyday life.
15:53And when they died, their babies and their women were were wrapped up like mummies.
15:59That to me makes no sense whatsoever.
16:01And then you got the whole thing about archaeologists early on in the early 19th century that had been down
16:07through that area.
16:08And, you know, there were people long before G.E. Kincaid.
16:11He was just the first one that kind of found things, I guess, and made it not and made it
16:16known to the world.
16:17But there were other archaeologists that were finding caves that had what they considered Native American tribes that were living
16:25there and artifacts that were there.
16:26No Native Americans.
16:27But and another fun fact is there's a lot of areas there that are called things like the Isis Temple,
16:35Tower of Ra, Horus Temple.
16:38And that that's what these things were called based on these earlier archaeologists that had come through that area before
16:45G.E. Kincaid.
16:46So so what's your theory on on why Arizona, why there or how it all transpired?
16:52My my theory is why the stuff was there.
16:55Actually, probably two theories.
16:57One, our waters were higher at some point and it wasn't as hard to climb up and get to that
17:03area.
17:04And, you know, maybe enough high enough that boats could bring in what was there or carved in what was
17:09there.
17:10I think we don't we think about people being so that being so far back in time that we weren't
17:16as advanced as we consider ourselves to be today.
17:19I think that my opinion, that theory is incorrect.
17:21I believe that we were probably more advanced before that and that people were traveling all over the world.
17:28So one thing and I'll tell you this because there's a site here in North Carolina called the Berry site.
17:33It is a Spanish site that they claim that Juan Pardo, who was came 24 years after Hernando de Soto,
17:40was trying to follow the steps of Hernando de Soto because Hernando de Soto had found gold in the Americas.
17:47Now, he came through North Carolina.
17:49But your official story for Hernando de Soto is that he never came through North Carolina, nowhere near North Carolina.
17:54Well, if that's the case, why did Juan Pardo in his chronicles and his diary say he was trying to
17:58follow his exact footsteps?
18:00Well, there's a Berry site. And when they were digging up items, there were items.
18:05I went to a program there and there was items that had Celtic, Irish Celtic symbols.
18:11I'm like, hey, I know that symbol. So I was asking the professors.
18:14I'm like, so why is there Irish markings on these on these potteries and on these things?
18:20And he said, well, that's because they were trading with with the Irish.
18:23I'm like pre pre Columbus. They were trading with the Irish.
18:26And he goes, yeah. And he said most of the time they would come in from the seas, take certain
18:30creeks over to certain areas.
18:33And that's why your creeks would be named certain things.
18:37That's how they name their name.
18:38So we had an Irish creek and a Paddy's Creek that were coming up to this site,
18:42which that completely makes sense now because I never understood how they named them,
18:48but pretty much how we had Irish pottery.
18:51And so that was the same thing.
18:52So I think they were trading and doing a lot longer than what we think.
18:56So if they were trading way before Columbus founded America, whatever,
19:00I think that they were doing the same thing all over.
19:03I think that this was there were people all over here long before than we thought.
19:07Well, yeah. And Arizona is not unique because it's, you know, they found Egyptian artifacts and Egyptian culture all over
19:15the planet.
19:16Right. So I think they were traveling long before we thought they were how they were.
19:20That's up for a debate. But I don't believe that they just walked across.
19:24I believe they were taking ships and bringing boats.
19:26I mean, that's the reason for some of these old maps.
19:28We've got old maps that, you know, predate and show the Antarctica is a lush green, you know, so that's
19:35the Perry map.
19:36So I think they were traveling a lot longer.
19:39I think they were more. I don't know if they were more advanced,
19:40but they definitely had the ability to get to all the different continents and trade and live.
19:46And I mean, who knows? We really won't know.
19:49But why the U.S. feels such a need to hide and cover up these things.
19:54The only thing, in my opinion, I can think is it would change history.
19:57And it's not an easy thing to do to change history and they don't want to do it.
20:02And so I think eventually it will come out.
20:06Eventually it will come out.
20:07I just don't know if it will be in my lifetime.
20:11I would hope so.
20:12And again, you can't even go back into the Green Canyon right now to even at least on that area.
20:17I think I know my zones and everything.
20:19So it's not that the whole place is off limits.
20:22It's just certain areas.
20:23And that happens to be in the certain area that's, you know, off limits to everybody.
20:27If someone wanted to research more about this, where do you recommend they go?
20:31What would you recommend they read or are there any books or any websites or anything like that?
20:37There are.
20:38Let's see.
20:39There was a couple of them that I kind of got into early on.
20:42Of course, like I said, the first initial thing was from that.
20:45I think it was Ancient Alien show.
20:47So I'm sure you could find that somewhere.
20:48They gave a lot of good information.
20:51But there was the best one, honestly, was the the library there in that area that actually someone had pulled
20:59the newspaper article.
21:01I mean, it's still on Microfix.
21:04It is.
21:05It is on Microfix.
21:06Oh, is it right?
21:06It is.
21:07But it's not on newspapers.com.
21:10I should know.
21:11I have that.
21:11And I powered it looking for it.
21:14You cannot find it.
21:15So, you know, when when you're using a online source, that means that someone has the ability to remove the
21:21information.
21:21You know, someone else has the information, has control over it.
21:24But another good one, local, not locally, excuse me, new to me, but apparently five or six years old, is
21:31a gentleman who has a podcast and a YouTube channel and all these different things called the Y Files, W
21:38-H-Y.
21:38And he did an article, article.
21:41He did a podcast, excuse me, on it.
21:43And he had a lot of good information that I didn't even know.
21:46So that's rare because I try to research things to death.
21:50Yeah, there's so much you don't know.
21:52Yeah, there's a lot.
21:53I mean, there's a lot I don't know, but there's a lot I do know.
21:56Well, you may not know the micro detail, but you're pretty familiar with the topic.
22:00Right, right.
22:01And so, like, I did not realize that there were other explorers early on that were searching the area.
22:09Obviously, that makes sense.
22:10And they were naming it things like the Isis Temple and Tower of Raul.
22:16Why?
22:16Why would they do that?
22:17They're obviously not Egyptian.
22:19Or were they Egyptian people coming over here and exploring?
22:22How did those areas get those names?
22:25You know what I mean?
22:25And that's in the Grand Canyon area.
22:27So why were they being named that?
22:29How?
22:30Who was doing it?
22:31They don't tell you who was naming them.
22:33They just said early 19th century explorers.
22:36And that's where these names came and they stuck.
22:39So, I mean, again, will we ever know?
22:42No.
22:42Not in my lifetime.
22:43I don't think so.
22:44Now, were there sensationalized stories?
22:46I'm sure there were.
22:47But I don't feel, in my opinion, that some of these things would have been any interest to anybody.
22:54It's an earthquake.
22:55Like, okay, and, you know, a volcano, it was barely referenced, but there were newspaper articles about it.
23:02Matter of fact, they ran, oh, and it got picked up across all the way North Carolina back in the
23:06day.
23:06So, but it was, again, forgotten about.
23:09Okay, we had a volcano interrupted.
23:11Oh, well, so sad.
23:12And they moved on.
23:13And it was not something that anybody ever thought it would be brought up again until somebody starts researching something
23:19and finds it and just goes down that rabbit hole.
23:23So, I believe that the newspapers, could they be sensationalized?
23:27Yes.
23:27Were some of these stories, especially since they tried to call it a hoax right off the bat.
23:33I mean, you search any which way but Sunday to try to find information about this Grand Canyon and G
23:40.E. Kincaid.
23:40And even the gentleman that was helping him, which is S.A. Jordan.
23:44He was apparently a professor and an archaeologist who was leading one of the missions into the cave.
23:52I mean, they found other things.
23:53They said this cave, this vast system would have held 50,000 people could have lived in here.
23:58There were ventilation systems in this cave.
24:00I mean, there was just all kinds of stuff in Grand Canyon.
24:04Why do we want to cover it up?
24:05Why do we want to keep that away from, you know, public knowledge?
24:08I have no idea, you know, other than it's going to change history.
24:11That's it.
24:13Yeah, I mean, this is absolutely fascinating.
24:14So I really appreciate you educating me on it and then challenging me to read about it.
24:19And so I plan to do some more research on it.
24:23But I think for I'm thinking maybe for our next podcast, I want to challenge myself to read a little
24:29bit about the giants in America.
24:31You had talked about the little people of America.
24:33And I've been hearing lately about the giants in America and giants in other places of the world.
24:40So so I'd like to I'd like to challenge myself.
24:43I know, you know, a lot about that topic.
24:45So I'd like to challenge myself for our next episode to to read a little bit on it and then
24:50we can talk about it.
24:50OK, and also, if you want, I want you to zone in on not just the giants across the world,
24:57but zone in on, if you would, the tie into the biblical giants.
25:02OK, I think that might be something you'll it will make you understand why we had giants across the world
25:08in the first place if we tie into that.
25:10Yeah. And if you have any recommendation of what I should read or research, like by all means, send it
25:17to me by email and I'll get on it.
25:19And then we'll we'll record it next week.
25:22That'll work. That sounds great. Well, thanks again, Rena.
25:25You're welcome. And I had a great time. Thank you for letting me run on about G.E. Kincaid.
25:31It's fascinating. Fascinating. And I'm sure our listeners are going to love it, too.
25:36I hope so. I hope so. OK, well, have a great day.
25:39Thank you. You too. OK, bye.
25:49Good times ahead, let's make this life sweet.
25:54The past had its shadows, but we're chasing the sun.
26:00Good times ahead.
26:04The best yet to come.
26:11Good times ahead.
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