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00:00Hello and welcome to The Steamy, the Scotsman's politics podcast. Alex Salmond, the former

00:05First Minister of Scotland who led the SNP to extraordinary electoral success, has died

00:10at the age of 69. Mr Salmond suffered a suspected heart attack on Saturday afternoon while attending

00:17a conference in North Macedonia, shocking the political world. Tributes have poured

00:21in from across the political spectrum for a man who changed the face of modern Scotland.

00:26He led the SNP in the 1990s and again between 2004 and 2014, during which time he took the

00:33party into government for the first time and secured the historic independence referendum

00:38that reshaped Scottish politics. But recent years have cast a shadow over his legacy as

00:43he faced sexual harassment allegations which led to a spectacular falling out with his

00:48successor and protege, Nicola Sturgeon. He was cleared of all criminal charges following

00:53a trial at the High Court in Edinburgh in 2020, but his lawyers admission that some

00:57of his behaviour was inappropriate and that he could have been a better man left a stain

01:01on his reputation. He was locked in a legal battle with the Scottish government he formerly

01:06led, winning more than £500,000 in court after it was found an investigation into harassment

01:10complaints against him was tainted by apparent bias. And last year Mr Salmond announced he

01:16would be taking further action, warning that a day of reckoning for the Scottish government

01:20was coming. It remains to be seen how that plays out. More recently he had his sights

01:25on returning to Holyrood in 2026 at the next Holyrood election as an MSP for his pro-independence

01:31Alaba party. He was, it's fair to say, an extraordinary politician and a complicated

01:37man. I'm Alistair Grant, the Scotsman's Political Editor, and to discuss Alex Salmond's legacy

01:41and some of her own memories, I'm joined by David Ball, the Scotsman's Deputy Political

01:46Editor, and by Callum Ross, who is the Scotsman's Education Correspondent, but in a former life

01:51was a political reporter as well. Callum, you wrote a piece for the Scotsman today's

01:57paper just about some of your encounters with Alex Salmond as a young journalist, or a younger

02:02journalist covering the politics beat. What are some of your memories?

02:08Yeah, that's right, Alistair. I started out in 2006, so just before the SNP came to power

02:17and I moved to Aberdeen towards the end of 2007, just after they'd come to power, obviously.

02:28So my start in journalism coincided with Salmond coming to power. My earliest, I was trying

02:35to think yesterday when I first dealt with him, the one that stands out, and I'm not

02:40sure if it was the first time, but the one that stands out I think was around 2008, maybe

02:46the middle of 2008. I was sent to a building site in Aberdeen. He was going to be cutting

02:53the turf there, so he'd been First Minister for just over a year, I guess, a year and

03:00a half. We all know this, but maybe some people listening, watching, don't know that

03:06when you go to these things, you get a few questions with the First Minister, but it's

03:10always the broadcasters that tend to go first, the TV, and then the radio, and the print

03:15guys like us are always at the end. So I remember being stood there, and I don't know who I

03:20was with, but the BBC were up first or second. I don't know what the journalist asked, but

03:29he asked Salman a question, and Salman did not like it. He reacted badly. He started

03:37questioning the journalist quite aggressively. Then he was wanting to see the journalist's

03:41notes. I'm pretty sure he grabbed the notes out of his hand. Anyway, I'm sure the notes

03:47ended up in his hand. To be honest, it was all quite humiliating, I guess, for the journalist.

03:58Journalists give politicians a hard time, so they can't complain too much when they

04:01get it back, but most other political leaders didn't really behave like that. You interview

04:07Prime Ministers, and the recent ones, anyway, all went to private schools, and they're all

04:12very polite, whereas Salman was a different kettle of fish. I think in the piece I remembered

04:19as well, about a year or two after that, I had asked him a question he didn't like. It

04:23was at a press conference at the Glencraft Furniture Factory in Aberdeen, I think. He

04:30answered it fine, because it was a press conference with loads of people around, but then afterwards

04:34I went to speak to him, and I had a work experience journalist with me. I just remember him turning

04:42to her and saying, work experience? With this guy? It just kind of put me in a place. To

04:49be honest, I didn't really look forward to interviewing Alex Salman. I think probably

04:55because of those early encounters when I was young, I was always slightly scared that he

05:00would publicly tear me to pieces. I think in one piece profile I did of him around the

05:082011 election, I did a big interview with him then, just before it as well. Obviously

05:14just before a historic moment. I remember describing him as Tony Soprano-esque in the

05:20piece, and I think that's probably more to do with how I perceived him than anything

05:24he did or said to me, but there was a bit of an aura around him in that sense.

05:35Yeah, I last interviewed Alex Salman. I've only interviewed him a couple of times as

05:40a journalist. I started covering politics in 2017, a few months after he lost his Gordon

05:44constituency in that year's general election, so I didn't have come across him all that

05:49much initially. But I interviewed him a couple of times. The first time was at a pub in Coatbridge,

05:54I think, just ahead of the 2021 local elections when Alaba were hoping to make gains across

06:01some of the councils in Scotland. And then again, just a few weeks ago at the end of

06:05August, I met him at a jolly restaurant on Elm Row in Edinburgh, which I think was a

06:10favourite haunt of his, to discuss the 10th anniversary of the independence referendum.

06:14And he was very, very punchy. He was great when it came to quotes for journalists. He

06:19just knew exactly what kind of language to use. He knew what made a story for journalists.

06:24He was talking about essentially the SNP's reaction to the recent general election result

06:31being brain dead. He called Angus Robertson, the external affairs secretary, a fud. He talked

06:37about Scotland being worse in every possible way now than it was in 2014. So it was really

06:44kind of punchy stuff. And I remember as I left the restaurant, I kind of turned around and I

06:49could see that he was already engaged in a conversation with one of the tables that was

06:52kind of close to us. So he just had that, I think he just loved speaking to people. He loved that

06:57kind of, to be frank, he loved being in the limelight. He loved that aspect of politics.

07:02He seemed to really enjoy the cut and thrust of political debate. He seemed to just really enjoy

07:07his role, essentially. I mean, do you, when you look back in your interviews with him,

07:11is there a time that you can remember that, I suppose, was your favourite encounter?

07:18Favourite encounter. I mean,

07:20although I kind of said that I was almost a bit kind of intimidated by him in those early days,

07:26I mean, one of the later times was just after he won his election in 2015, Gordon, and he was back

07:36in Westminster. And I bumped into him, I was working down in Westminster at that point, and

07:45I think I had an old school friend with me. And I saw him and I thought, I better go. I didn't

07:52think he would remember me, but I went up and introduced myself. And he did remember me. And

07:59we just started kind of speaking on this escalator. And then we spoke for a few minutes.

08:04He told, I mean, I was pretty sure he probably had a fairly low opinion of me. But he said,

08:11and he probably did, but I remember him saying that he'd heard from a former colleague of mine

08:17that I was quite funny. He always had this way about, he was always kind of

08:22paying a compliment, but at the same time, acting surprised about it. You know, he just had this

08:27way. He never really kind of knew what he was meaning. It was kind of double-edged all the

08:32time. But that's one that stands out. I mean, after that, the times that I was in the same

08:37room as him after that was kind of following the allegations, you know, the Linlithgow restaurant,

08:46where he was kind of called a press conference, a very odd press conference to kind of

08:51deny the allegations, and then at the High Court as well. So it kind of changed a bit after that.

08:56But yeah, that's the kind of more positive one that stands out.

09:01Yeah, I was at that press conference in Linlithgow as well, just in 2018,

09:05just when the allegations first emerged, in which he said that, you know, I think his phrasing was

09:09he'd made many mistakes in his life, but he'd never sexually harassed anyone, and then covered

09:14the trial at the High Court in Edinburgh as well. So it was kind of extraordinary times,

09:20really. But David, I mean, what do you think? He was obviously, well, whatever else you think,

09:25he was the kind of politician that, you know, if he came on the radio in the morning, you would

09:29stop what you were doing, you'd listen to what he had to say. Not all politicians, that can be

09:34said for, to be honest. He had this kind of charisma and magnetism to him that is extremely

09:39rare in politics. People weren't neutral in Alex Salmond. I mean, people call him a divisive figure,

09:45and in some ways, you know, all politicians are divisive. But I think particularly Alex Salmond

09:50kind of provoked strong reactions. You either really, really liked him, or you really didn't.

09:54And he also managed to form really close bonds with political colleagues. He had people that

09:59were extremely loyal to him, who stayed with him over the last couple of years.

10:04But what do you think his legacy will be, both for Scotland and for the independence movement?

10:12Yeah, I mean, his legacy will be huge. I mean, like he said, even if you were on the opposite

10:16side of all the arguments to Alex Salmond, people did respect him and understood the weight he had

10:23and the support he had from a large chunk of the population. He was one of those

10:28Scottish politicians who people across the UK knew who he was and knew he was important. And

10:34like you said, that doesn't happen very often. You could probably say Nicola Sturgeon was not

10:38to the same extent, but on that sort of footing, you'd be hard-pushed to think of anyone else

10:46who would have that kind of that sway. And I mean, his impact on the SNP and the independence

10:51movement was huge. I mean, it dragged it from the time that Callum talked about when they

10:56kind of just managed to get into government into making it this political force. And we look at

11:02the SNP now and the kind of trouble it's in, and it's just because the standards are so high for

11:06the SNP now because of that sort of legacy and what Alex Salmond managed to kind of create and

11:14then bring the SNP up into the forefront of Scottish politics. And even though obviously

11:19the referendum fell flat, he didn't quite get there, it kind of created this modern

11:25movement for Scottish independence. It's much more than the SNP is. There was a big movement

11:29and it still is. Yeah. And Callum, I mean, if you think back to when Alex Salmond was first

11:36elected to Westminster, I think in 1987, he was one of only three SNP MPs. And it just seems like

11:42an astonishing political journey to go from that to where the SNP ended up as a dominant force in

11:47Scottish politics, the real kind of mainstream force, but also where independence as an issue

11:52ended up. You know, when he was first elected to Westminster, it was very much a fringe issue.

11:55It wasn't on the agenda at all, really, in the same way, but it became a huge issue around the

12:01independence referendum and has really dominated Scottish politics since then. I mean, we're still

12:06living in that post-referendum era. We've not passed through it yet, a decade on. Where do

12:11you think Alex Salmond stands when it comes to Scottish politicians of his generation? Do you

12:16think he will come to be seen as the best?

12:23Certainly, yeah. I think the most important, yeah. I mean, kind of taking on your point,

12:30I think you're right. I mean, I remember kind of the end of school, kind of sixth year at school,

12:35studying modern studies, where there was a group of us. This is kind of 1999, 2000, turn of the

12:40century, really interested in politics, debating politics all the time. The Scottish Parliament

12:47had just opened. We never really discussed Scottish independence. It wasn't really a lie.

12:52It wasn't something that was ever a realistic prospect, you know, and now it is for the last

13:02decade and the decades to come. Any kind of younger generation coming through, those kind of cohorts

13:08you know, it's genuinely a realistic option and I think that's down to Alex Salmond, really.

13:16I think the other point to make is, I know he's said recently that he regretted it, but his

13:22resignation after the independence referendum was a really important moment. I think that should

13:29have been the moment where the no-side kind of, you know, put the issue to bed, but it kind of

13:34captured the initiative back from them. All kinds of people who'd, you know, become on side of the

13:39yes side during the campaign, they're suddenly left. I can't really describe it, but they felt

13:44kind of, you know, now Salmond's gone as well. We've been beaten, Salmond's gone. They all started joining

13:49the SNP in their droves and, you know, obviously in the last wee while they've maybe not

13:57been able to get that second referendum and they're kind of looking a bit tired and everything

14:03now, but I think he deserves credit for that moment. I often wonder what would have

14:09happened, what would his legacy be if he'd just bowed out of politics then, if we hadn't, you know,

14:15really heard from him or, you know, maybe we would have heard from him, but he hadn't tried to

14:22seek re-election. I wonder if things might have worked out slightly differently for him and

14:28the SNP if he'd done that. Yeah, I think that's what people always say, is that he was kind of

14:33incapable of bowing out. For him, public life was life, essentially. It was everything that he

14:40existed for, that was what he wanted to do. He just couldn't really take a step back from

14:43frontline politics. It wasn't ever really going to happen for him, but I mean, a question for

14:48both of you, I mean, maybe starting with Callum, I mean, what is it about Alex Salmond that you think

14:54made him so successful as a politician? What do you think he had that other politicians maybe

15:00lacked or that really drew people to him, I guess? I mean, he had a lot of charisma,

15:07didn't he? I mean, I remember thinking, he seemed to be on top of the details. I mean,

15:14I remember thinking kind of in the early stages of the referendum campaign that, you know,

15:21I remember ahead of the TV debates and stuff, there's a kind of feeling that Salmond was going

15:25to wipe the floor with Alistair Darling. He was kind of so formidable. He was this, you know,

15:31senior economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland, you know, he was a proper economist and he'd

15:37been a proper politician, kind of dragged the SNP, you know, from nowhere, like you said,

15:43to government. I mean, those achievements were hugely impressive and yeah, I think that

15:50a lot of politicians these days, they don't have that kind of background, do they,

15:54of being in command of the details and they don't really always give the impression they are. I mean,

16:00you look at the likes of Boris Johnson and the rest of it, I mean, it's just completely different.

16:05I mean, to be fair, Alistair Darling did well in at least one of those debates. I think he

16:11surprised people, so maybe Salmond wasn't quite across the detail and the way he gave the

16:16impression sometimes, but I think that was part of it. What do you think, David?

16:21Yeah, I think the charisma and confidence was something that made him stand out, really,

16:25particularly when he was at Holyrood. I mean, we cover Holyrood sort of in a lot of detail,

16:32and there are not a lot of people who are obviously as sort of charismatic and

16:37as flowing as he was. I guess some of his ambition kind of put him apart. Obviously,

16:42people would have maybe laughed at him when he was starting out and this sort of dream of

16:47independence, which he just never let go of. And also with his policies, I guess he had some very

16:52ambitious policies that are still part of his legacy, such as the free tuition fees for Scottish

16:58kids and the free prescriptions. So he did a lot of ambitious things that cost a lot of money

17:05that if people kind of suggested nowadays would kind of get laughed at a little bit.

17:09But he was driven by it, I guess, and probably that just made him keep head and shoulders above

17:15everyone for some time. It wasn't just a fleeting thing. He's been a dominant force for decades.

17:22Yeah, and it's worth talking about as well. He obviously, as I touched on at the beginning,

17:26had that big falling out with Nicola Sturgeon, with the SNP, went on to set up the pro-independence

17:32Alaba party. And it's fair to say that Alex Salmond was a bit of a reduced figure in recent

17:38years. The Alaba party never really made any kind of electoral breakthrough. It managed to get some

17:43politicians, but they were all from defections from the SNP to the Alaba party. I mean, where

17:51do you think the Alaba party goes now, David? Kenny McCaskill is the acting leader,

17:56obviously former justice secretary under Alex Salmond, and he's saying that it's not going

18:00anywhere. But it feels hard to imagine them getting any kind of breakthrough without Alex

18:05Salmond. He was their driving force. A lot of people thought he may well have managed to get

18:10back to Holyrood in 2026. And if he did, he would have become a big figure in Holyrood. He would

18:16have had a big influence. He's obviously a big character. He would have shaped politics within

18:21Holyrood. But obviously, that's not to be now. Yeah, I mean, that party is kind of nothing

18:28without him, in all honesty. I mean, it was built around him. It was his project. It was his kind of

18:35method of keeping in the political limelight. I mean, after the court case, and obviously,

18:42we had his questionable Russia Today stint that obviously probably didn't help his reputation

18:51either. He was always wanting to get back into the limelight. And he obviously tried at the last

18:56Holyrood election and failed quite badly to get back in, even with his name on the ballot. It just

19:02didn't happen. In 2026, you're right, he had a good chance of actually getting back into Holyrood.

19:07I mean, can you imagine what sort of comeback that would have been if he managed that? It's hard to

19:12see where that party goes without him. I don't really see what the draw is in getting people

19:19back. Especially, I know Albert will continue to fight for independence and say the SNP aren't

19:25doing enough. But the context of it makes that very tricky, especially without Alex Salmond sort

19:30of leading the charge. And I guess Kenny MacAskill, yeah, he'll want to keep the fight

19:36going, as it were, particularly in Alex Salmond's name. But in all honesty, it looks very, very

19:43unlikely that they will kind of amount to anything going forward. What do you think, Calum?

19:51Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's tricky, isn't it? Because there was a time, I think, where

19:57Salmond was so unpopular that there was a suggestion that he was almost holding Alba back.

20:05But yeah, I can't see much of a future for them. I mean, you never know. You never know,

20:13maybe an Ash Regan or someone might be able to kind of start again, create a new kind of

20:23narrative for them. But it's hard to see at the moment.

20:27Yeah, well, we'll have to wait and see. But fair to say that Alex Salmond was an extraordinary

20:33figure, a flawed figure, as we've touched on. I share your experience, Calum, in the sense that

20:39he was always quite intimidating to interview. You could tell exactly what he thought about the

20:44question you just asked by his response and his face. And occasionally, I'd see his number and

20:51he'd phone me up out of the blue, you know, once in a blue moon, and you'd always kind of stop in

20:55your tracks and think like, oh, what's this about? But an extraordinary political figure,

21:00and I think his legacy will be debated in the days and weeks to come. But thank you very much

21:06for listening to this special episode of The Steamy to discuss the life and legacy of Alex Salmond.

The Steamie Alex Salmond Special

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