00:00Let's speak to Phil Pluck, who's chief executive of the Cold Chain Federation in the UK.
00:06Good to see you, Phil. Now, look, we've now seen cyber attacks in France and across other parts of Europe.
00:11How vulnerable is our food supply chain to this kind of incident?
00:16I'm afraid to say that actually it's extremely vulnerable.
00:20We've got a history of cyber attacks, most of which have never really hit the news or the public don't
00:26know about.
00:26But for easily the last six or seven years, the entire food supply chain in the UK has been under
00:32attack, mostly by Russian cyber criminals.
00:37And this looks, the European attacks look like it's no different.
00:42So, yes, we are extremely vulnerable. We're working as hard as we can to make sure that we are less
00:48and less vulnerable.
00:49But we take the view that actually this is a matter of when, not if.
00:55Now, if hackers can switch off supermarket freezes, just how serious a threat is this to food security?
01:02It's incredibly serious. And what's even more serious about these particular attacks is that cyber attacks tend to take one
01:11form, really.
01:12And that is they will spend months, if not years, sometimes infiltrating systems, just as the ones we've seen.
01:20And then at the point where you're most vulnerable, i.e. the demand is highest, then at that point, they
01:26then switch you off and demand a ransom of many millions of pounds to put you back on to business.
01:33But the real issue here is that we have not seen anyone take responsibility for these attacks.
01:40And normally they do on the dark web. And we haven't seen any ransom demands.
01:45That suggests that there may be state interference in these attacks.
01:49How quickly could an attack like this lead to food waste?
01:54You know, empty shelves at higher costs, all of those things for consumers.
01:58There are lots of variables here, aren't there, Phil?
02:00Well, this is days. Let's not assume that we've got vast amounts of food stocked away somewhere.
02:08We are a just-in-time sector. And the reason for that is that we've got 70 million people in
02:14the UK and also vast millions in Europe.
02:18So actually, when something like this happens, if it happens on scale, then actually that can really start to see
02:25food shortages in a matter of days.
02:28And food shortages usually mean higher prices at some point in the near future.
02:32In this country, we're looking at around about five days' worth of food in our system.
02:37So if the hackers decided to take us out in any meaningful way, then within a matter of days, the
02:44public would know about it.
02:46So are supermarkets and cold chain operators doing enough, do you think, to protect this critical infrastructure from cyber threats?
02:55Well, as I said at the very beginning of this interview, we've been under attack for a number of years
03:00now.
03:01And so over those years, we are investing millions upon millions to try and protect ourselves from cyber attack.
03:08But actually, the cyber criminals are incredibly sophisticated.
03:13Now, if we continue, as we will, if we continue to be reliant upon the Internet, upon web, upon software
03:21-based delivery,
03:24just like any other organisation these days, we will remain vulnerable, no matter how many millions we plough into security.
03:33Phil Pluck, great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.
03:36Thank you very much.
