- 3 minutes ago
Following the now-legendary 1973 Battle of Versaille fashion show, Bethann Hardison was the coveted supermodel of the moment. And though this speaker, activist, and iconic model may no longer walk the runway in a traditional sense, Bethann's presence is there, as she continues to fire and fuel the fashion industry and, specifically, her long-held commitment to driving more and continued diversity down the runways.
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00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. Quick history lesson. Bethann Hardison reached legend status early in
00:31her modeling career when she walked the now infamous Battle of Versailles runway in November
00:35of 1973. The fashion show, which was launched as a benefit to help restore Marie Antoinette's
00:41stomping ground to its former glory, pitted French designers against Americans, the couturiers
00:46against the nouveau classics. It was the ultimate in drama by design, complete with theatrical
00:52sets and star-studded audiences flown in straight from Hollywood. A spectacle that tilted the
00:57balance of power in the fashion world toward the blossoming New York City scene. But the
01:01person who turned most heads that day was Hardison, who became one of the first black
01:05models to walk a European runway, changing the game right then and there. Flash forward
01:11to 2012, when documentarian Timothy Greenfield Sanders released his quietly electrifying
01:16film, About Face, supermodels then and now, which centered around the model elites of the
01:2120th century who went on the record with the harsh truths about aging in their respective industry.
01:26The film covered a lot of important ground, but Bethann made sure the race conversation stayed
01:31central, calling for designers to cast models across the racial spectrum, channeling her energy
01:37into the diversity advocacy agency, Black Girls Coalition, and launching the careers of other
01:42notable supermodels. Back in 1973, Bethann Hardison was the face of a moment. But today, she's so much
01:49more than that. She is the force of a movement.
01:59Bethann Hardison, it is such an enormous honor to have you here on Unstyled. I can't even believe
02:03I'm looking at you right now.
02:04I'm so happy to meet you because it's, you know, it's interesting to meet women who start things.
02:09Thank you. Well, you've started many things, actually. Because I think our audience of
02:14listeners may not know, tell us about the Battle of Versailles.
02:17Oh, Versailles. You know, it's interesting how something that was dormant for so many years
02:22has become notable to others now because, you know, nobody thought about it after a couple
02:27of years after we came home. I mean, it was like nobody knew about it. And then the Metropolitan
02:32Museum just about four years ago, I believe, learned and wanted to recognize the girls who had been
02:37there. And any of the designers that were left, and there was only two, and that was Oscar
02:42DeLaurenti and Stephen Burroughs, and then it was the girls. So they think, because it was the
02:45diversity division of the Metropolitan Museum, they focused on the girls of color because they
02:51knew that that was a pivotal point in the industry for international. It wasn't for national. That's
02:57why this whole thing that I do with racial diversity, it's not because, you know, it's the
03:01first time around. If it was the first time around, I probably wouldn't even give a shit.
03:04But it's because of the fact that it is something we've always had. So when we got a race, that's
03:09where it's not cool. Because I know what they bring to the table. I know what a good model
03:13brings to the table, no matter what color she is. So when the Metropolitan Museum recognized
03:17us and gave us that wonderful luncheon at the Temple de Indoor, it was amazing because it was
03:21all over the news at night. And then this woman, Deborah Draper, she created this documentary.
03:26That brought more news about it. And then Robin Gibbon writes a book about it, uses the basis
03:32of it, you know. But how old were you when it happened? I don't remember how old, because
03:37I don't know how old I am now. But the fact of it is, is that. I love that. I
03:41wish I didn't
03:41know how old that was. I had to be. You were living in New York. I'm born and raised in
03:45New York. Bed-Stuy, right? It wasn't Bed-Stuy then. It was Bed-Stuy then. And I then moved
03:52to the city, Manhattan, when I was 19 to live with my uncle, who's an art director at J. Walter
03:58Thompson.
03:58I think it must have been in my late 20s, because I worked in the garment district, and
04:02then I modeled with the job. I worked for Stephen Burrows. I ran the design studio for
04:07him, and I was his assistant.
04:09The work that you've been doing, helping to promote not just awareness, but real change
04:14in inclusivity and diversity in the fashion industry. When did you first start to find
04:18this as like an opportunity that you really wanted to focus on as a person who had influence
04:24in the fashion industry?
04:25For me, it started in like 1981 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5, 6. When I started working
04:30at
04:31Click Models, I think you start noticing little things. Just to be clear, there were always
04:38people of color in the industry. But I think what happened is when I was working there as
04:42a model, I mean, as an agent, I could sort of hear how things were. Like, you know, when
04:46we had Talisa Soto at the time, the booking editor at Vogue, which she said, oh, Bethany,
04:51don't worry. You can tell me. What's the nationality? Because they were booking her for
04:54something. What's the nationality of Talisa? And I was so proud to say she's Puerto Rican.
05:01And they said, no, no, no. What's her nationality? I'm sorry. That's not funny.
05:08She just wanted to erase what I had said. So I said, she's Puerto Rican? She said, no,
05:12no, no, no, no. Like she wasn't accepting what I had said.
05:15That wasn't a good enough answer.
05:16They wanted to be more exotic than that. Meanwhile, there's always been models of color,
05:20you know, whether it be for all advertising when it was black beauty or, you know, via
05:25DeVore, there was always supplying the marketplace. So it was not something rare. Even when I was,
05:31even on 7th Avenue, you saw the girls of color, whether it be, you know, Mosella Roberts or
05:38Jane Chang or Renee Hunter, they were girls who fit and did shows for, so it wasn't so like
05:44unbelievable. For me to fit in was kind of odd because I was the next wave and it was a
05:48lot
05:49of resistance because I was very skinny, big eyes, short, short, short hair. And I was such a
05:54different look for what was going on then. But in the end of the day, it was still happening.
05:58So as we moved through and we go through the 80s and then all the girls that start to work,
06:02and then I started my model agency in 84 and you start seeing all the girls coming around,
06:06truly girls start to work. And that's what made us start the Black Girls Coalition was just
06:11basically just for me to celebrate how many girls actually were working. They had to be editorialized
06:17and they were being editorialized in Hearst magazines. And thank God for Regis Panes who really
06:21threw the competition into a monkey wrench because he came from Paris and he started Elle
06:26here and he was putting girls of color on his magazine like it was nothing to it, like it
06:30was ebony. He didn't think twice about it. That forced the hand of Vogue, that forced the
06:34hand of Condé Nast, all hers.
06:36And that was in the 80s.
06:37And Naomi had come along too. She was like the supermodel of that moment. That's where those
06:41girls were super because they were just everywhere and everyone knew them. That had never happened
06:46before. These girls they call supermodels today. It's not true. It's not true.
06:50The other can remember who they are. But those girls really were. That was the establishment
06:54of that.
06:54That was a culturally defining period in my life when all of those girls like Linda and
06:59Naomi and Christy. I mean, I can literally name them all. Helena Christensen. It was like
07:04this group of them.
07:05Tatiana.
07:05They were like superheroes.
07:06Yeah, they really were.
07:07They really were. Tatiana Petits.
07:10That's right.
07:10Oh, I know. They were all. And then also Claudia Schiffer. We can't forget Claudia Schiffer.
07:15Yeah. No, the girls, it was a great thing that happened in that time frame. All the vibe
07:19of that was great, you know. When you start seeing girls coming along, more girls of color,
07:24then it became like, wow, because I thought maybe they would never work. I had a white model
07:28agency, but because I was of color, the white agencies would find a black girl and just
07:32said, you should go to Beth Ann Management because I was of color. But I didn't take a black
07:36girl because she was black. I took a black girl if she was good or boy. So at the end
07:40of
07:40the day, there were people who were then sewing and I couldn't take but so many because I had
07:45a small company and a small amount of people. But eventually they began to work and it was
07:49a great moment. I mean, it was a great from 80, say from 87 to 96. Truly was great. Then
07:56it started to, the girls sort of grew up and the wave didn't come next.
08:00So it sounds like there's been a cyclical nature to either attention to diversity or maybe like
08:07this sort of interest in diversity in the fashion industry. What do you think?
08:10It was like, you know, you had to sort of like help motivate the thinking because I
08:15worked for a lot of these designers myself in some way or capacity, you know, whether
08:18it had been Perry Ellis or Calvin Klein. And then because I'm now in the seat of a model
08:23manager, I basically, you know, because of my nature too, I'm someone who tap you on the
08:28shoulder, so to speak, and say, you know, you know what you just said to me was kind of
08:33racist, right? You have to understand how that, I know that's not your intention. You
08:36had to educate people along with Brides Magazine. I had, thank goodness I had a white model agency
08:41with good ethnic kids in it. But Brides Magazine always booked this one girl I had, this beautiful
08:47brunette girl. And one day I just, you know, I had so many good kids. I said, don't you
08:51ever book black girls? You do know they get married too, you know what I mean? You have
08:58to say things so people can think because in the end of the day, they're living within
09:02ignorance. They're not living because they're really racist. Do you think it's fear?
09:06No, it's just, it's the way things start going. And once it starts rolling down a certain
09:11road, everybody, you know, remember, it's just the nature of the goods. So in the end
09:16of the day, they just didn't recognize. So when you say it to the Brides Magazine, they
09:20say, oh Beth, man, of course, of course we know they get married. I said, well, you don't
09:23reflect it. You know, and I get, and the reason why it could happen easily for me, because
09:27everyone liked me, everyone respected me. I never came aggressively. I just say things
09:32that makes them think, wow, I never even thought of it like that. I would talk to Calvin's partner,
09:37Barry Schwartz. He says, how could you ever say that? You know, they call me up and they
09:41say, Beth, man, we want you to find us a great black girl. And I said, well, how many, well,
09:46how many girls are you using? Uh, 35. And I said, and you, you have many black, well, we
09:50want you to find us a great one. And I said, you want me to get you one black girl
09:54and
09:54you're going to use 35. Come on. Do you know how that sounds? What does it sound
09:59like? And then you have to take them down the road. It's not a conscious racism, but
10:03it is the results of it is that if you can have 35 white girls in a show and you're
10:09going
10:09to ask me to, but I thought you'd be happy. Well, I am happy that you're going to, that
10:13you asked me, but we got to broaden that stroke a little bit. That's just checking a
10:18box. It got that way. And then when they start to realize they need a dark, good, good
10:23girl, but it had fallen to that. It wasn't like that before because the runway
10:27girls, half of them were of color. But then when it changed and runway and print
10:33became a division that began to merge and prints, and then Calvin was the one as
10:39always, he's such a brilliant marketer too. He was the one who decided to put the
10:43print girl on the runway. They couldn't walk, but he wanted the editor to recognize
10:47the girl in the clothes so they could see it editorially. That was marketing.
10:53And that changed everything. That closed down the runway division. So there were
10:58agencies that only did runway. So it changed things. And once you do that, the girls
11:02that's in the magazines are all white, primarily. And that's what changed. But slowly...
11:07At that time.
11:08Yeah.
11:18Tell me about the Black Girls Coalition.
11:21Well, that was something that was really started to celebrate the girls that were working. There
11:26were so many.
11:27And nothing like that existed at the time.
11:29Oh, no. Nothing. Definitely not. Because first of all, there was no Beth Ann Hardison before
11:33there was Beth Ann Hardison. It wasn't like, you know, I had someone I could go talk to and
11:37two that looked like me that, you know, was doing similar things I did.
11:40Who did you talk to?
11:41Well, sometimes Iman, then Naomi, then Barack. But when it came down to, like, the Coalition,
11:47I just... Iman was going up for a film. She was no longer modeling it. And she didn't get
11:51the film. And she was so down. And we went to dinner that night. And just to pick her up,
11:55I said, I got a great idea. She always loved my ideas. I got a great idea. What is the
11:59idea?
11:59And I told her about it.
12:00I can't imagine why. And then she just got so excited. So we, you know, once I told
12:04her about it, then we had to do it. So we did this celebration of girls. And at the
12:09time, homelessness was running rampant in our city. And I wanted to benefit the homeless
12:13children. They were double victimized because their parents became homeless. They had to
12:16live in shelters. And I wanted to find all the small groups, not big corporations, but
12:21the little people who were doing great things for homelessness. And we did that. And we raised
12:24consciousness in the city. And we did these parties.
12:26So many people came. I was so shocked that we were so successful at them. Keith Aaron
12:30would give us paintings. And we would go around and pretty much get barely any money for them.
12:34But it was the consciousness that we were raising. And then we'd get money that these little
12:38companies never, no one gave them anything. So if they gave them $5,000, each one, we always
12:42found three charities. It was the best thing. And then until 1996, we went up against the advertising
12:48industry, commercial advertising industry, for not reflecting their consumer. That was the
12:52last thing the coalition did. So 1996, I went out. I also closed Bethann
12:56management, the model agency. And then I went to Mexico and just cooled out for a while.
13:01Interesting thing enough is that it started to change our industry. All of a sudden, the
13:05girl of color started to disappear from 96. It was up until 2000 that Naomi started calling
13:12me and saying, you got to do something. It's really getting very scarce.
13:16Was she experiencing that herself?
13:17Well, she was experiencing by looking. Herself, she's still...
13:21She was still very active.
13:22Yeah. But she could see what was happening.
13:24Well, what do you think was happening just sort of culturally in the media industry or
13:28what was going on?
13:29First, a few things happened. We never had casting directors in our industry before with
13:33designers. That changed. And then Eastern Europe opened up. So many of the girls started
13:37coming from Eastern Europe and people started scouting Eastern Europe. It changed. It started
13:42bringing a different element of a model in. That's where it started to change. And the girl who was
13:46of color wasn't being sought after anymore or looked for so that those girls were not being
13:51replaced, the ones who were growing up, like it was replacing Karen Alexander or, you know,
13:56Stephanie Roberts. You know, there were different girls who were so well-known, Beverly Peel.
14:01There were so many girls that were known, but they start to, you know, go on with their life
14:06and they weren't being replaced. People start saying, you need to really, you know, see what's
14:09going on. I come back into the industry. Kim High Shredder from Paper Magazine, when I came back one
14:14time, she told me that I was the reason why it had all changed and I need to take responsibility.
14:18I said, please don't tell me that I want to go rest. So what did you do? So it took
14:24me a while
14:24because I kept thinking, okay, I will do it. I'll have a talk. I'll just figure something out. And by
14:302001, 2003, I just kept saying, oh God, I got to really do something. Not until 2007, I held the
14:36first
14:36press conference about the lack of racial diversity in the industry for the fashion model. And I invited
14:42model agents, editors, some models. Naomi flew in from London. Iman came, Leah Kabidi, held it in the
14:50Bryan Park Media Room Auditorium. And it was about 80, about 90 people and had a great talk. I just
14:57sat
14:57there by myself and told them everything I thought. That hit Women's Wear Daily, New York Times, and I
15:03went to the New York Public Library on Fifth Avenue and I held a bigger, huger. It was well over
15:09275 people
15:10in an auditorium and they had to use the separate room to add the people who couldn't see it or
15:15be
15:16in the room. And I did four town halls. And that started to change things. But then it would slip
15:21back. So Edward and Phil were saying to me, he said, we've got to really do something again. You
15:26need to do something. So here I go again. And then, okay. And we start to, I start to watch
15:32because it
15:32takes a lot of energy to do what I do. In 2007, when I did that first press conference, they
15:38were
15:38writing to the model agencies, no blacks, no ethnics. Telling them before you even send a
15:43girl to us, this is what the casting directors were saying, no blacks, no ethnics.
15:47What year is this?
15:482007.
15:49No one saw that as discrimination at the time.
15:51No, it's because the great thing about, the good news and the bad news about our industry,
15:55we talk in identity. We talk about what someone is when we book them. We recognize it because
16:02that's what you do. You say, we want redheads. We don't want redheads.
16:06More subjective.
16:08We're very specific about what someone should look like.
16:11Yeah, but you can't eliminate entire races of people.
16:14Well, it happens.
16:15I mean, it happens. When people think it's theirs, because it went for a while where people
16:20began to believe this is normal. But casting directors change everything. I mean, I'm not
16:24a big fan, as everybody will know. Everybody knows me say this all the time. I'm not a big
16:28fan. It used to be just a designer and his team that used to decide who it was going to
16:33be. And the great thing, that's how you got Muses. It was quite different. But then when
16:37outside people start deciding, they start deciding what they should look like. And then
16:41they had stylists. These are all outside people being hired. It brought a whole different thing
16:48to the industry. And so I had to say to the model agencies, if they interviewed me privately,
16:53they'd say, who do you blame for this? And I'd say, the model agencies. But if I was
16:57in a public forum, I never said that. If it was loud like now, or at my town hall meetings,
17:02I never said it. But personally, I did feel that way. Because I felt like the model agencies,
17:06we have to be gangsta. The whole point of being someone like that, you go, you educate. Because
17:12the model industry is not the fashion industry. We service the fashion industry. But now it's
17:17gotten all convoluted, and everybody thinks they're in fashion. Even if they sew a button
17:20on a shirt, I'm in fashion. They're not. So it's changed a lot. So my point was that you
17:25had to sort of like, you tell them who you have to represent. You show them. You go out
17:45really, really? Racist? Yeah. Was that the headline? Yeah, they did. But I want to say
17:51something, especially with the arrival of Edward Ennenfall at British Vogue. The thing that finally,
17:57at least in my position as an editor of a media company with many other editors, the responsibility
18:02comes from a lot of different vantage points. It doesn't just come from one aspect of, you know,
18:08the designers or the modeling agencies, or the editors. It comes from everyone, you know,
18:12to prioritize, or at least to make this an important point of education, making sure that the dialogue
18:19is there, making sure that it's just constantly part of the conversation. And I think that there's
18:24a lot of blame being passed around when we start to sort of assess, like, which shows actually did
18:30the best job. And it's not just about racial diversity. It's about body diversity now. There's
18:33a lot of, there's around age diversity. What I'm trying to say is I really appreciate the fact that
18:37you come at it from a point of wanting to educate people, because then they, you know,
18:43have the tools to actually make better decisions. And then change really is more enduring. Do you
18:48agree? I agree. I agree. I do really do believe, you know, Franco used to say to me, you know,
18:52all the time, you know, because everybody thinks anybody who's on the other side of the coin thinks
18:56it's racism. I never think either that it's necessarily that the industry is racist. And Franco used to say
19:02all the time, but it's not that bad. It's not. It's because they forget. Now, at least I love
19:08the way she say that. But the fact of it is, I don't think it either. I think it's worse.
19:13I think
19:13it's ignorance. Because if it's racist, I can live with that. I've always said that. I'm not mad at
19:18someone who doesn't want black people or Asian people or green people, yellow people in their
19:22collections. No problem. Not in their advertising. If you say to me, look, back off. I just don't like
19:28black people. You know what? I'd walk away, pick up my tools and go to the next guy.
19:33It's the next guy who basically does it totally out of like, oh, I don't know what they're doing.
19:41Those are the guys. It's a funny hand gesture happening here that you can't see, but it's
19:44funny. But it's just that they're just out of it. They're functioning out of total ignorance
19:50because they don't, they're not committed to being someone who's against someone in their race.
19:56That's when you have to sort of help them understand how if you just continue to do something
20:00where everything that you hire or you select is white, then that's the results of it,
20:07whether it's your intention or not.
20:21Let's shift gears a little bit. I have been a big fan of yours for a really long time, but
20:26I have
20:26to say, like genuinely, and I'm not embarrassed to say this, like fell in love with you in About Face.
20:32I love that documentary so much. I recommend it to so many friends. I think it's also just to be
20:37in
20:37my 40s now. I just, I just found it really satisfying in a lot of ways. You're perfect in
20:41it because you talk so frankly about aging and about having your own opinions about what it's
20:46like to age in the fashion industry and kind of in the public eye. But tell me what it was
20:50like to
20:51work on that film. Making that film was wonderful because he had a group of girls that he had to
20:56shoot one day and he just came up with the idea that this could be a film because they all
21:00came
21:01together. They were girls of the past and he had to shoot them and that he added me in because
21:06he
21:06really felt that I would add something. But he said it was the most interesting thing because I was the
21:10one that they had the longest interview with. They didn't want to stop the film. He just kept going
21:15and going. I felt that way. Yeah. It was like an earthiness to your, to your contribution. It was
21:20just like it was, it was substantial. Yeah. It was, it was, it was gritty in a good way, you
21:25know?
21:25And I love, I had a couple of favorites in that film too. For me it was Jerry because I
21:30grew up with
21:30Jerry and she and I were very close when we were younger. I love her story that she tells about
21:34being
21:34discovered when she's wearing her little crocheted bikini in the south of France. Her mom, or she got into
21:39an accident or something and she got an insurance payout and she's like, she sent her to, she sent her
21:42to the
21:43South of France to get discovered. Yes. Yeah. That's it. And then Isabella is always one of my
21:48favorites. Rossellini. No, I, I'm glad you liked that film. I need to see it again because I only
21:53saw it the one time when he premiered it, but I need to see it again too. You're working on
21:58a film
21:58called Invisible Beauty. It started out being about the industry and it's, and it's lack of diversity.
22:04And I used three girls at the time to help tell the story. I was in it, but very lightly.
22:10Now the film
22:10has changed and the film is a, tells my story about the journey of this woman who goes through
22:15what she does to get the, an industry to recognize racial diversity for the fashion model and her
22:21life, who she is. That's what the film is about now. So it's autobiographical. In a way. Well, yes,
22:26it is. It is. And it is a documentary. It is a documentary. What do you think that movie
22:31introduces or at least sort of like what kind of conversation you think it elevates about beauty
22:36standards, you know, especially for young women, especially now in terms of social media and this
22:43insatiable pursuit of youth and perfection? I grew up with, it was just natural. I mean,
22:49you just saw it, you live with it. People moved on, people look great, everyone. But I guess because
22:55everything's gotten so broad because we have, we have such an entry into industries that makes,
23:02reflects what people should think and see, I didn't, we didn't grow up like that. Carol Lindley was the
23:08first person I discovered, you know, as a model, I mean, as a person entity and 17 magazine, I was
23:14nine years old and I told my mother, I have to have it. That girl inspired me. She was blonde,
23:20blue eyed,
23:20cherub cheeks. She turned it, she eventually became an actress, but she was, that was the cover of 17
23:27magazine practically every month. I was crazy for this girl. But then I realized how nowadays,
23:33people looked for images of themselves so they can feel better about themselves. And they, you hear
23:38it all the time, especially people with 40s. You hear it, you say they, uh, 30s, you know, you know,
23:44when I saw Naomi or this one or that one in the magazines, I felt like I too, it reflected
23:49me.
23:50I never had that. I never, I never needed to. You know who my model was on the cover of
23:5517 when I
23:55was growing up? Who? Whitney Houston. Oh yeah, but I used to represent Whitney. She was my, she was my
24:01girl.
24:01When, when my, when that magazine showed up in my mailbox and let me tell you, I was waiting at
24:05that
24:05mailbox for them when that issue would show up every month. And when she, I couldn't wait to see
24:09if she was going to be on the cover. It was so exciting. It was a good cover. She had
24:13one,
24:13she had one particular good cover. I see it right now. Yeah. She was, she was really life-changing
24:18for me back in the day. And that's what I'm saying. Cause she also looked different.
24:22That's right. And, and that's what I'm saying when you start seeing images that are different,
24:26then you start to decide. But my mother even had magazines in the house. So, I mean,
24:30it wasn't like we, you know, everything, the magazine was on the street, you know? So it was
24:36interesting for me because when I told this girl who's right, helping me write my proposal,
24:40she was so shocked by it when I said, Carolyn, and she found a picture. I mean, she said, really?
24:45I mean, it's the opposite. But the good news about all of that is that, you know, you think about
24:50age and,
24:50and time. And if another person tells me how great my skin is, or even one looks so good for
24:56this age, or this one looks so good. And I keep thinking, but what are you supposed to look like
25:00at that age? Well, you really have amazing skin though. I did put something on before I came,
25:06but it's just moisturizer. And people say, well, you're so lucky because look at you.
25:10Well, you know, it's never been my thought. And I've, I never liked makeup. I never cared about
25:14any of those things. I really am a tomboy. I'm a skinny white boy inside because I leave,
25:18I love everything about board sports, whether it be snowboarding, skateboarding,
25:24surfing, you know, to me, I'm not who I am anyway, what I look like. I'm somebody else in spirit.
25:30The idea of people recognizing how people look and how good they look for their age is always
25:36amazing to me. That's how you should look at that age to me. On the topic of aging,
25:41Allure magazine recently said it would no longer be using the phrase anti-aging. It moves the attention
25:46away from aging and puts it on just looking good and feeling good. It shouldn't have anything to do
25:51with aging. It shouldn't have anything to do with being young or not young because I think that at
25:57least in my own personal experience, how I look is always a reflection of what's going on in my life.
26:02I can see it. And there's no amount of, you know, sort of under eye concealer or Botox that's going
26:08to
26:08change that. There isn't. It's, it's also unkind and unfair to stigmatize women that care about that
26:16more. I think that everyone should be able to care about it as much as they want to.
26:19I do too. I do too. But I do love the beauty of age. I do love the wisdom of
26:25age. I do love,
26:26and I don't think you could have but so much wisdom if you're so caring about your physicality.
26:31I don't think it's possible that you could really care so deeply about how to tell some young
26:37person how to get across a river. You know, if you're so busy worrying about if this is getting
26:41a little bit more wrinkly, I just don't know where that wisdom comes from. The point of it is,
26:47is that it is good that, you know, we do have that, that clock that ticks, because I think it's
26:52very
26:53important that we should recognize that we didn't come here to live. We came here to die. And I know
26:57that sounds very morbid and all that, but it isn't. That's what you have to keep looking at.
27:02That's the one thing that I was always glad. I had my grandmother and my father between the two
27:06individual people who basically believed in death. And that's a great thing to grow up
27:10knowing that that's what you're going to do. So live the life while you have it and not worry
27:15about, you know, oh, I'm trying not to die. Because that's the inevitable thing. It's going to happen.
27:23You've had a really, really long career that's obviously still really busy. What do you think
27:28you're the most proud of?
27:29That the spirits let me have my son. And I like what he's done in his life.
27:34Did you call them the spirits?
27:35Yeah, the spirits let me to have them. Because believe me, I was 18 years old. I wasn't trying
27:39to have a child. But in the end of the day, the spirits let me have them because I would
27:43have
27:43done anything to stop it. I think I'm very proud of Beth Ann Management, because that was not meant
27:50to be mine. And all the people, a lot of people you know, made me do it. They made sure
27:55that I got it
27:56done. And this girl said the name of my book should be, they pushed me to do it. Because I
28:00say that a lot
28:01about a lot of different things that's happened in my life, I got pushed to do things, because
28:05I didn't want to. And I love, you know, discovering Tyson Beckford. You know, and he has a wonderful,
28:11handsome career.
28:12A huge career. And I like, you know, being the sage to Naomi Campbell, or Iman, or any of the
28:19girls that have really been someone to that always came to me when they need it. I'm very
28:26blessed for the love that I have in my life, for the people who care for me. And I'm very
28:30proud of
28:31myself in many ways, too. And I'm very glad that I'm talking to you today and talking to you about
28:36real stuff, you know. And I'm glad that you're inspired.
28:40I am so grateful to have you here. And I can't tell you what an honor it is to have
28:45you on Unstyled.
28:46And it's just an enormous pleasure and just joy to even meet you and talk to you.
28:51Thank you so much, Christine. I really mean it.
28:53Thank you, Beth Ann.
28:58I hope you're inspired after hearing Beth Ann's story. For even more Unstyled extras,
29:03check out Refinery29 or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick. You can also join the conversation using
29:09the hashtag Unstyled across your social media. And of course, we'd be infinitely grateful if
29:15you'd please subscribe to Unstyled on Apple Podcasts and rate us while you're there.
29:19You can head to Refinery29.com to find this episode and more,
29:23and make sure to sign up for our exclusive Unstyled newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every
29:28week. Our show today was executive produced by Sarah Bernard, associate produced by Rebecca Easley,
29:34and edited by Priscilla Mena. Copy support was provided by Elizabeth Kiefer. Our theme music today
29:40is by the artist Koff, and we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist at Argo Studios. We'll see you back here
29:46next Monday with feminist author and digital entrepreneur Naomi Wolf on decoding the new
29:52beauty myths, along with mobilizing a new generation of activists.
30:00I want to tell you about a podcast we think you may like called The Nod. Here, the show's hosts,
30:05Brittany Luce and Eric Eddings, explore the beautiful, complicated dimensions of black life.
30:10And after listening to our interview with diversity activist Beth Ann Hardison,
30:14who shot to superstardom on the runway of the infamous Battle of Versailles,
30:18we recommend checking out their episode, Chitlins at Bergdorf's, for even more conversation about this
30:23epic fashion show that put American fashion designers on the map in 1973. You can find The Nod on Apple
30:30Podcasts or wherever you listen.