- 4 hours ago
In our last episode of the season, New York-based psychologist Dr. Samantha Boardman helps us to better understand and appreciate the hardwired, chemical connection between looking good and feeling good. Stay tuned for Season 2!
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LifestyleTranscript
00:01Welcome to Unstyled. I'm your host, Christine Barbrick, co-founder and global editor-in-chief
00:06of Refinery29. Each week, I invite a notable person to come in and talk with us as we explore
00:12the funny, inspiring, sometimes heartbreaking tales of life, work, and love, as told through
00:19the things that we wear. Years ago, the New York-based psychiatrist, Samantha Boardman,
00:30had her own major wake-up call when one of her patients told her that she didn't enjoy going
00:35to their therapy sessions anymore. In fact, she dreaded it. After a bit of prodding, Dr. Boardman
00:42came to find what her patient wasn't enjoying was the fact that each of their sessions seemed to
00:47focus too heavily on her problems, what was wrong in her life, and the things that never
00:52seemed to change. As a result, her patient left their sessions feeling worse, not better. This
00:58was a shift for the Harvard-trained psychiatrist. Dr. Boardman realized most of her professional
01:02training had been about fixing or managing symptoms. So she returned to school to study
01:07something called positive psychology, a practice that, in Dr. Boardman's words, puts the focus
01:13on building what's strong, not just fixing what's wrong. She now refers to her work as
01:19Positive Prescription, which is also the name of her website where those hungry for happiness
01:23can find simple, affirming advice on optimizing daily life and maximizing your mood, even scaling
01:30back stress. Maybe most importantly, her philosophy isn't just giving platitudes about how great
01:36you are, though emphasizing your strengths is important. It's providing fuel through creativity,
01:42a sense of well-being, and to a degree, style that is very much your own. This is actually
01:49a medical professional who understands the hardwired chemical connection between looking awesome
01:54and really feeling awesome. She believes that building on the things that make you feel good
01:59is the key to success that so many doctors miss, just like she once did, but never again.
02:07Hi, Samantha. Hi. Thank you so much for being a guest on UnStyled today.
02:11Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, good. I'm so excited to have you here.
02:15I would love for you to tell the story in your own words about when that breakthrough happened with
02:19your patient. Well, many years ago, I studied in medical school, I'd studied what was wrong with
02:24people. And it was really my focus as I was trying to dial down their symptoms or dial down their
02:29misery in psychiatry. And that's what you do as a psychiatrist. And it never occurred to me to focus
02:33on anything else. And one day when I thought I'd been making a lot of progress with a patient of
02:38mine. It was a woman. A woman, yes. And she was wildly smart, about a 38, 39-year-old woman.
02:44And
02:44she wasn't working anymore. She was taking care of her three kids. And she was just overwhelmed,
02:48depressed. So I thought, okay, I know what I can do. I can prescribe something, a medication. She can
02:53come in and meet with me. And we'll discuss sort of ways to sort of minimize the conflict and stress
02:56in her life. She came in one day and just said, you know what, Dr. Boardman? I hate coming here.
03:03All we do is talk about what's wrong with me. And it makes me feel worse. And I'm done. And
03:08I never
03:08saw her again. I got fired. And it was a real wake-up call for me. Did you try to
03:13talk her out of it?
03:14I did. I was really taken aback. And because it was really what I was trained to do. I mean,
03:17that's all I knew how to do. And this wonderful old psychiatrist said to me many, many years ago,
03:22before this patient, that the whole point of therapy was to change your past. And I didn't
03:29know what he really meant by that. And he said, well, it's actually to sort of let go of that
03:33story
03:33you've been telling. Once you realize that it's just part of a story, it's a truth, but not necessarily
03:39the whole truth. It's something that you've experienced. You might have a mental illness.
03:43You might have depression. You might have anxiety. But that doesn't define you. It doesn't
03:47necessarily have to be your identity. It's part of who you are. But it isn't this cloud
03:51that hovers over you and sort of has to inform everything about you. And so that was really
03:56liberating to sort of give the patients back their lives in some way.
04:00I do think that there is an inordinate amount of pressure on young women to be successful,
04:06to be creative, to be beautiful, to be sexy and desirable to a partner, to be fertile.
04:13I'm curious in your profession, how do you sort of guide them in having more perspective about
04:19how to manage that?
04:20I'd say number one, to fortify themselves. I think women, young women are really bad at
04:24taking care of themselves. They're good at taking care of other people. But that sort of basic stuff
04:29that, you know, oh, I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality, you know, they've got like sort of
04:33circles under their eyes. They're the, you know, the first person in the office and last one to leave.
04:37So shifting that word from pamper to fortify, because pampering sort of, it's sort of, I think
04:44that people perceive that as being self-indulgent, you know, being excessively girly. And it's not
04:53about that at all. It's about, it's really about nurturing yourself.
04:57Yeah. I mean, how do you stay strong? And some of those basic things like, you know,
05:01how much sleep are you getting? How are you eating? And these were things I never learned in
05:05medical school. Nobody, unless somebody had an eating disorder, I wasn't really focusing on
05:09what somebody was eating or even when they were eating, how much sort of junk food they consumed
05:14and that type of thing that really actually can affect their mental health and their ability to
05:19concentrate, their mood and things like that. And especially when you're stressed out,
05:23it's exactly what you need is to fortify yourself and sort of be sleeping a lot and, you know,
05:28eating as well as you can, exercising, how are you using technology, things like that. You know,
05:33are you sort of staying up late, you know, checking Instagram or, or, you know, using things to help
05:39you stay stronger. And sometimes you do the opposite of what you need. You will skip going
05:44to the gym. You will, you know, eat, you know, that whole pizza and do all those things that
05:49actually, so you get the sort of double whammy effect of stress. So the one of the first things
05:52I'd say is fortify yourself. I think the second thing I'd say is explore, discovery, stay curious,
05:59keep asking questions, rethink what you think, you know. And it's to keep that kind of open
06:05mindset, that curiosity about what you're doing and how you're living your life is, is really
06:11important. And to find people of different ages, like find a mentor, you know, somebody who, who
06:17inspires you, but also a mentee. And it's always like a dialogue that kind of back and forth and
06:23being around people, I think, who have different perspectives can really help open, you know,
06:27your mind, especially when you sort of things, when you're stressed out, get really narrow.
06:31Do you think that exploring kind of relates to this process of keeping tabs on yourself? Do I
06:37really enjoy this? Do I really want to become a lawyer? Or do I really want to live in the
06:42city?
06:43I'm here because I ended up here, not because I've actually consciously chose to live here.
06:49Sometimes life tends to dictate, as opposed to us dictating, like what our choices are.
06:56Sure. Absolutely. And it's this sort of the sense of autopilot or default sort of mode that you get
07:01into and you're playing walk-a-mole, but you're not really like making decisions. It's just sort of
07:06happening or we call it like sliding, not deciding into doing things. So one exercise that I think is
07:11really helpful is... Sliding, not deciding.
07:14Yeah, you've got to decide.
07:16You have to choose.
07:17Yes, actively choose. You know, there's a lot of sliding, I think, that happens because we're all so
07:21busy. You know, and it's sort of deciding. I always ask that question. What's the difference?
07:24Can you live a whole life by sliding?
07:26You certainly can.
07:28Oh, God, I'm scared.
07:29We're deciding creatures. Our brains feel better when we decide. And a lot of people don't realize
07:34that. They're sort of waiting or just sort of, you know, even, oh, should I move in with my,
07:39you know, significant other? Like, should I move in with them? And then somebody will be like,
07:43oh, my rent's running out. We'll just move in together. Like, no, you've got to decide
07:47that you guys want to move in together. This is a choice you should actively be making,
07:53not a passive, oh, this just kind of happened. And people, you know, it does, even when we've
07:58made the wrong decision, we feel better about it than having it just having happen to us.
08:04That sort of autopilot mode is really, it sort of removes us from what we value most.
08:09And so it's why sometimes I ask people to do this exercise is sort of write down, you know,
08:14on a piece of paper, what do you value most in your life? Like, what are the three things that
08:18you really, like, hold dear to you? People will say my health, learning, being a good person,
08:23giving back, my family. And then you say, okay, how do you spend your time, especially your free
08:29time? You know, and sometimes it can be kind of eye-opening, the lack of overlap, like in a sort
08:35of social media hole on the weekend, binge watching Game of Thrones, you know, whatever,
08:40in a way that isn't necessarily in concert with their actual values. So when you have more overlap
08:47between how you spend your time and what you value most, it really kind of helps fortify you,
08:52I think, and stay strong, and especially in the face of stress.
08:56That's really interesting. What's number three? Is there a third one?
08:59Oh, yeah. Number three is connecting. And connecting would be, you know, connecting to
09:04others. I was taught in medical school, and sort of what people think, happiness comes from within,
09:08and it comes from with. What are you doing with other people? And we often turn our backs on
09:13our connections when we're super stressed out. It'll be like, oh, I'm just going to stay home,
09:17I don't feel like it. And that's precisely the moment we need our loved ones around us to sort of
09:22bolster us up. We live with all this productivity porn all the time, like, how do you get more done?
09:26But then you
09:26end up sort of sacrificing, I think, a lot of the social connections.
09:29Productivity porn.
09:30Yes, yes. How do you get more done? How do you put more into the day? And you can get
09:34other people
09:35and outsource it. And then also, connecting is larger than yourself, like having a sense of purpose,
09:40why you're doing what you're doing, and you're living your life according to your value system.
09:44So I'd say those three things, like fortifying, exploring, and connecting, that's the advice I give.
10:00So I would love to talk a little bit about personal style. You and I had some really beautiful shared
10:08appreciation around how personal style can really enhance your mood, it can enhance your perception
10:14of yourself, how you project yourself in certain situations. I would love for you to tell us a little
10:20bit about what your philosophy is around that connection between how we feel and how we look.
10:27Clothing gets a lot of attention, or style does, for sort of how other people perceive you. But less,
10:31I think, well understood is how much clothing and style affects how you feel. And so it isn't just
10:38how your appearance will affect somebody else's impression of you, but how actually you can wear
10:44a piece of clothing that can help you feel strong, that can help you feel beautiful, that even on the
10:48worst day can help you sort of feel empowered in some way to navigate your way through it.
10:52And so I really think of that as a positive intervention for people. And there have been
10:58these interesting studies with people who were asked volunteers to wear a white coat, and they
11:03were given a multiple choice questionnaire of some math problems. And then those who had the white coat
11:10on and who knew it was a doctor's coat were much more likely to persevere, and they were much more
11:15focused than those who weren't wearing a white coat. And they did a similar experiment, just having the
11:19white coat thrown on a table. So you had to be wearing it to show the difference between this
11:25white coat that you wore was going to sort of empowered people to work harder and persevere and
11:31to focus more. And it really affected the way they behaved. It shaped their behavior in ways that people
11:37who didn't wear the white coat, it didn't shape them. We have this false notion that, you know,
11:43I am who I am. But I think around clothing, that there are always these opportunities to
11:49expand ourselves and to sort of take advantage of the fact that our, that our identities are so fluid.
11:55Clothing can actually be the sort of positive intervention that can help us get unstuck from this
12:00fixed sense of identity that isn't necessarily true.
12:04Oftentimes, we get feedback about being a media company that has this belief that covering or being
12:12passionate about fashion and shopping and beauty and nutrition is just as important and is just as
12:20gratifying and has as big of an influence in our lives as understanding how to manage your finances and
12:26being educated about the upcoming election and that seeing all of that as carrying equal weight in our
12:32lives, you know, in order to enhance our lives.
12:35This is not like a zero-sum game. It's not an either or, you know, or you're serious about politics
12:40and,
12:41you know, issues versus beauty and fashion that it actually, like, all of these deserve equal
12:47attention and they're just this kaleidoscope of who we are and things we care about and there's no
12:54ranking them, you know, in some way that there's some sort of hierarchy that this, these things sort
13:00of exist in.
13:01But also, we were talking about red lipstick. I know you have a theory about the red shoe
13:05diaries, but I would love for you to tell the story about red lipstick.
13:08That story that was after World War II when one of the camps had been, concentration camps had been
13:15liberated and I think it was a British Red Cross worker who was horrified by the devastation around
13:23him and they were trying to help the survivors from this concentration camp and lots of things had been
13:28sent but somehow this huge crate of red lipstick arrived and what could be more useless and this British
13:34officer writes in his journal about why that was just the most irritating sort of reckless thing to
13:39arrive and how mistaken he was and that how many of the women were so sort of moved by this
13:48gesture
13:48and were so sort of engaged by the red lipstick and needed to put it on because he wrote very
13:55sort of
13:55eloquently that it gave them back their humanity and that there was something about sort of attending
14:00to their sense of femininity and being a human being again that holding that lipstick sort of symbolized
14:09for them.
14:09You know, in the old lunatic asylums, there were beauty parlors that you would go to and you would
14:15have, you know, your hair done and that was kind of part of the treatment process and that, you know,
14:19was long gone.
14:21Sounds like an HBO series.
14:22I had such a say.
14:23Can you imagine?
14:24It really does.
14:26How, you know, this ability to take care of oneself can help you feel human and what is it?
14:31Is it sort of the chicken or the egg?
14:32Is it actually like, you know, does the red lipstick help you feel better, you know, in some way just
14:37wearing it, is it helping you feel better?
14:38Or if you choose to put red lipstick on, like is that action a sign of your mental health?
14:43And I don't know the answer to that question.
14:46I think it probably works both ways.
14:47It's not just psychosomatic, it's somatopsychic.
14:50It's also sort of like what you're wearing can also inform how your head feels.
14:53But it really just speaks to the importance of and the value of self-care that tends to
14:59be dismissed.
15:00We feel guilty about it.
15:02You know, it's sort of getting beauty out of the closet and giving women the permission
15:05to feel good about it and embrace it and take care of themselves in the way that they want
15:11to.
15:11You know, why as a society don't we value style or clothing or fashion in the same way
15:16we value the arts in other ways?
15:18And I think some people believe it's because it goes back to Plato and that, you know, the
15:23idea of sort of a naked raw truth.
15:25And, you know, the moment anything's enclosed, it's sort of, you know, hiding something.
15:30Even the word we use like fabric, it's sort of, or to fabricate seems something sort of
15:35removed from the truth.
15:37And it's as though like any of these processes are sort of removing you or disguising something
15:43that's true beneath it.
15:45So I think that sort of contributes to our lack of trust even of the way fashion or, you
15:53know, beauty can transform us.
15:54There's some sort of cultural distrust.
15:57But it's also the exact opposite of that though.
15:59Totally.
16:00No, I totally agree with you.
16:01But I think that's sort of a perception that maybe lingers over it.
16:04I mean, I'm sure that some people can use those tools as a means of concealing themselves.
16:09But I think that it's just really just getting to know yourself better and really taking pleasure
16:15in that process of getting to know yourself.
16:19And I think that we have those moments throughout life, not necessarily just with clothes, but
16:23in places that we go, you know, where we feel like we've been there before or people
16:29that we meet that we feel like we have like a very natural rapport with them.
16:33And I think the same thing is really true about the way that we express ourselves through
16:38how we actually care for ourselves and the things that we wear.
16:41But how do you not feel guilty about it, you know, in some way that you're wasting money
16:46on this, you know, that like, oh, you know, think what else you could be doing with that.
16:51And this is a shame.
16:52There's a shame attached to it and a total stigma, especially even in our closest relationships.
16:58But I feel guilty spending a lot of money on something.
17:01And I'm ashamed of myself that, you know, I've worked hard for that money.
17:05I've chosen this whatever it is that I'm going to spend it on because I feel as though
17:10it's going to enhance my life and it's going to bring me pleasure.
17:12So why do I give a shit what people think about how much I spend on it?
17:15Yes.
17:15You know, I think as we get older somehow, too, that it does get easier to take care of
17:20ourselves.
17:20And that kind of how we evolve and even our bodies evolve when you put something on that
17:23really, you feel like you're home in some way.
17:26But what's also really interesting is how you sometimes a few years later put that same
17:29thing on and it doesn't feel like you at all.
17:31To me, it's like when you go back and you read an old book and all the stuff that you
17:34underlined or, you know, all the pages you dog-eared, you're like, oh, that's not what's
17:38important.
17:38This is.
17:39And I think there's sort of that amazing when you go back and like reread those old books.
17:43And you're disappointed.
17:44You're like, I loved this so much the first time and now it's not as good.
17:47And I think that speaks to like how we do evolve and change and even our style can change
17:52sometimes and sometimes something that did feel like a second skin isn't anymore.
17:57I see there's something sort of beautiful in that is how you sort of can let go of things
18:00and embrace other ones.
18:01But also it's helping us to redefine what beauty means and what beautiful is.
18:06In Nancy Adkoff's book about survival of the prettiest, she writes, can you imagine a
18:10society, you know, a world living without beauty in it and how it's quite hard to define
18:16sometimes.
18:16And she says it's like, you know it when you see it.
18:19You can't describe it.
18:21It just, you know what it is for you.
18:23And I think that sort of, that self-fashioning, that self-expression, that sort of, you know,
18:28embodiment of beauty in your eyes and for us to sort of get comfortable with that is
18:32beautiful.
18:34No, I love that.
18:35Samantha, it's been such a pleasure to have you here.
18:37Thank you so much for being on Unstyled.
18:39Thank you so much.
18:40What an honor to be here.
18:41I'm so excited.
18:43I hope you're inspired after hearing Dr. Boardman's story.
18:46For even more Unstyled extras, check out Refinery29
18:49or my Instagram at Christine Barbrick.
18:52You can also join the conversation using the hashtag Unstyled across your social media.
18:56And of course, we'd be super grateful if you'd please subscribe to Unstyled on iTunes
19:00and rate us while you're there.
19:02You can head to Refinery29.com to find this episode and more, and make sure to sign up
19:07for our exclusive Unstyled newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox every week.
19:11Our show today was produced and edited by Elisa Kreisinger, with production assistance from
19:16Rebecca Easley for Refinery29.
19:18Copy and research support provided by Lila Brilsen.
19:21Our theme music today is by the artist Koff.
19:24Hannes Brown produced our episode music.
19:26And we recorded Unstyled with Paul Ruist.
19:29This is our last episode of this season.
19:31But don't fret.
19:32We have a bonus episode for you with Refinery29's own Connie Wang
19:36on finding your style up next.