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As the United Nations marks 81 years, it faces mounting geopolitical divisions, humanitarian funding cuts and growing calls for reform. Can it adapt to a changing world while upholding its founding principles? Melissa Fleming, UN Under-Secretary-General for Global Communications (@melissarfleming), discusses the UN’s future, the challenges facing multilateralism and what it will take to remain relevant and effective. #AWANIGlobal
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00:06Hello, I'm Farnashe and you're watching Awani Global. Now, as the United Nations marks its
00:1281st anniversary, it does so at a time of deep geopolitical divisions, mounting global crises,
00:19and growing doubts over the effectiveness of multilateral institution. Now, against this
00:25backdrop, we asked the question, what does the UN represent in today's world, and what does it take
00:32for it to remain fit to address future challenges? Now, joining us today is Melissa Fleming, United
00:39Nations Under Secretary General for Global Communications. Thank you so much, Melissa,
00:43for joining us. It's such an honor to have you here. Well, it's wonderful to be with you, and it's
00:49nice to see you again. It's nice to see you too. Now, let's get straight into it, Melissa.
00:54The UN was founded 80 years ago with a very clear purpose. It was in the aftermath of the
01:01Second World War, and the aim now is to prevent another world war and to promote international
01:05cooperation. Now, looking at today's world, though, with, you know, prolonged protected
01:11conflicts still persisting, some of these conflicts contribute to global economic shocks and even more
01:17massive displacement. We're also looking at deepening geopolitical divisions. So, against this
01:23backdrop, do you believe that the UN is still fulfilling the purpose for which it was created?
01:29Let's start our discussions there. Well, of course, it would be easy to say, look, there's so many wars
01:37in the world. What good is the UN? It failed. However, I believe that if the UN didn't exist, we
01:44would
01:45need to invent it today, 81 years later. The UN was founded in the aftermath of World War II, in
01:54the
01:54aftermath of horrific, horrific war and suffering and destruction and even the use of nuclear weapons.
02:02It has prevented a third world war, and it's very difficult to prove how many other wars that it
02:11actually has prevented. One thing is clear, it has eased the suffering of millions and millions of people
02:18around the world and has lifted them up. That said, there are many things about the UN that were
02:26written in the charter then, still stand. We still want to prevent war. Three years later, the Universal
02:35Declaration of Human Rights was signed into being, which laid down the system of international law and
02:43human rights, the rights of every single human being to dignity, and also in the charter, the rights of
02:50every nation, great and small. All of these things still stand. But since in those years that succeeded,
02:59there were 142 new member states that came into the UN family, and we still have some of the same
03:06structures from that time, like the Security Council. So there is a lot that needs to change, and maybe we
03:13can talk a little bit about what has changed and what we're trying to do to modernize the UN so
03:20it is fit for
03:21today's world.
03:22From your experience, what has changed most significantly during your time within the organization,
03:28and also in the way that the world perceives and engages with the UN and its offices?
03:36Obviously, the geopolitical situation in our world has shifted, and it has done this over the years.
03:42I think what has changed perhaps is the absolute kind of impunity that we see in many fields of war,
03:58ignoring international law and obligations, and kind of snubbing international justice. So
04:10we do believe that we have to continue. We don't have to change much there. It's just that we have
04:15to get
04:15the world back to respecting international law. Because an international rules-based order,
04:23most of us believe, most people in the world, and most governments in the world, is really the only
04:29framework for achieving what, not just what the UN stands for, but what most people in the world want,
04:38and that is peace and justice and human rights.
04:42So, yes, there is the saying that the UN is only as good as the governments make it, and that
04:51is
04:51probably true. But because the charter is such a strong document, and because so many people
04:58still use it as their guiding, you know, guiding force in a way, we keep returning to it over and
05:08over
05:08again, and recommitting. This is the only place in the world where all countries of the world can
05:15gather and speak, where enemies and friends meet to solve our collective problems. And so we have to
05:22make it work and continue to push and to recommit. It is imperfect, but it's the best, it's the best
05:30organization that we have for this.
05:33So I guess that brings us to the question of reforms here. So 80 years on, obviously,
05:38there are growing calls for the UN to adapt to today's geopolitical realities, right? Some of these,
05:43I can list down a few, you know, we're talking about power structures, decision-making, representation,
05:49internal structures, the UN's ability to deliver amid funding cuts, public trust and confidence.
05:56It's a plethora of things. But I think I'm more interested in the conversation that the UN itself
06:03is having. So within the organization, how serious is the push for reforms? What are the stumbling
06:14blocks? And what progress have been made in what fronts? I think this is, you know, we're here with
06:20you right now, and you are the perfect person to answer this. So I guess we want to know a
06:24little bit
06:24more what's going on inside.
06:27Well, you know, there, thank you for that question. There are, there have been two waves of reforms in
06:33the, in the last few years. The first one was two years ago, when the General Assembly adopted the
06:41Pact for the Future and within it is annexed the Global Digital Compact. This is a roadmap for how the
06:51UN
06:51can grapple with the issues and the problems of today. There's even a declaration for future
07:00generations that looks at people who aren't even born yet. So it did, it was, it was a two years
07:10long
07:11effort at looking at the issues and the problems of today's world and coming up with the mechanisms
07:19to address those issues as a collective. So that stands. And then in the past year, the Secretary
07:30General has embarked us on a reform called UN 80. It was named UN 80 because we turned 80
07:38last year at this time. And this reform is more internal. And that's maybe coming back to your
07:45question. You know, the UN is a big family of organizations within the Secretariat. There are
07:51all kinds of departments and organs and ways of working. And, you know, over the years,
07:59we've collected multiple mandates from member states and never really questioned them. We've developed
08:07ways of working and had never really sat and looked at, is this really functioning? Is there overlap?
08:14Are we duplicating? Are we working as effectively? Is this even relevant? And so a lot of these really
08:22tough questions were asked and we were quite frankly faced with a massive funding crisis at the Secretariat,
08:32and especially in our humanitarian organizations. And so the need to downsize was evident. This happened at
08:41the same time. At the Secretariat, we cut staff by over 20% and budgets by 15%. This meant thousands
08:51of posts
08:53disappearing. The humanitarian heroes that serve the UN, the organizations like the United Nations
09:00refugee agency, refugee agency where I once served. Um, they probably, there'll be about 8,000 jobs cut. Um,
09:11and this in, in about a period of about one year. Um, and if you add to that, um, WFP,
09:21the world food program,
09:22has lost about 40% of its funding as compared to the year before. Um, UNICEF has also lost
09:30significant funding, mostly from U S cuts, but as, um, big donors, uh, in the Europe, in Europe, um, also
09:39have
09:39had to increase their defense spending. Um, instead they have, uh, looked for the, for where to, to find that
09:48kind of, uh, money. And they, they picked humanitarian and development funding as a source. And unfortunately,
09:54the result of all of this, including with the collapse of, of USAID, um, is in a sharp increase of
10:04suffering, quite, um, quite, um, quite a, uh, diminished, um, workforce and a scrambling to see how we can
10:15do the best with less. Uh, and it is an enormous, enormous challenge.
10:20Right. Since, since we're on this topic now, um, I'm curious to know, you know, with regards to the UN
10:27facing
10:28funding shortfalls, where are the impacts being most felt? One, is the organization seeing this as something
10:35temporary or, you know, something that we can sort of, you know, get back to, or is it a more
10:41sustained funding
10:42challenge? And I think with your role as global communications as well, how is it adapting while
10:50communicating difficult decisions to communities that are affected?
10:55Yeah. I mean, the, there's always been a perennial funding problem. There was never,
11:02ever enough funds to meet the needs of the suffering in our world. The new, um,
11:08UN High Commissioner for Refugees is, is working on a campaign to reduce the number of refugees who are
11:18languishing, um, in exile, uh, unable to return home, but unable to integrate and to trying to work with
11:25governments to find new mechanisms so that they're, they're move off of dependency. So trying to find
11:33innovative and, and, uh, new ideas, maybe bringing in the private sector as well, philanthropy,
11:42new sources of funding. Um, but mostly again, uh, we will need don't, more donor support. We will need
11:51to continue to make the case as long as the wars that are driving so much misery. And this really
11:59is
12:00the origin of most of it. Of course it's compounded by climate change, um, made very dramatic by the
12:07El Nino, um, that is happening right now. Um, but mostly it is the wars that is driving the misery
12:15and
12:16to save the lives, uh, who are affected by it. We need funding support and that's never going to change.
12:23We have been looking at opinion polls around the world and it is astonishing because it's,
12:29doesn't mirror what the public thinks does not mirror the action of governments. The public
12:35actually, um, I think it's something like 56% in a, in a new poll, um, wants governments to use
12:43their
12:43taxpayer dollars dollars to solve global problems. Um, you know, many people around the world, uh,
12:51say that they would give 1% of their income to, uh, to for climate action to try to overcome,
13:01uh, climate
13:02change and address, uh, these kinds of shocks. So people are just, uh, have this feeling that they're
13:10alone in wanting change and wanting a better world. And the, this is driven by social media and
13:17algorithms that, um, amplify the fringe voices, the loudest voices, the voices that are expressing
13:24the most outrage. And yet the vast majority, the silent majority are actually caring and decent
13:32and want, um, a clean planet and a, and a better and more peaceful world for everybody. Um, but,
13:40on that, um, we're talking about governments doing more now, and we'll talk about the donor support
13:45just now. Um, and even with a reformed UN, um, it still depends on governments, um, being able or
13:54willing to cooperate and to do more. Right. Um, but with 193 member states pursuing sort of their own
14:01national interest as well. Um, the question now is multilateral system, right? Does it still deliver,
14:08or do you still believe it delivers meaningful result when major powers are increasingly at odds
14:14and some of these governments are also facing domestic pressures at home? Um, what do you make
14:20of this? Well, you know, there are many member states who go at certain problems alone, but in the end,
14:31they always come back to the UN. I mean, take the example of COVID-19. How many countries, um, who
14:38had
14:39first access to the vaccine, uh, determined that this vaccine was only going to be for their country?
14:45Well, how did, how much did that help in a global pandemic that knows no borders? And really,
14:52what the lessons learned became even in those countries was we actually, if we have access to a
14:59vaccine in future, we have to make sure everyone has access, um, because nobody is safe until everyone
15:06is safe. And it really is almost, it's the same with, with climate change. I mean, you can, you know,
15:13shore up your defenses against climate change, or you can, you can also, um, you know, make the
15:20transition to renewable energy, but you're still going to be hit, um, if you don't help other
15:26countries to make that transition too. If we don't, as a global community, um, work to reduce
15:34the temperatures to below 1.5 degrees, because it just doesn't work in one country. So there's so
15:41many examples. Look at the ripple effect of the war in Iran. Um, it is, the closure of the Strait
15:47of Hormuz
15:47is hitting almost every single country in this world, uh, not just in, in fuel prices, but also,
15:55um, in the missing, uh, fertilizer that is, is, is creating a potential global food crisis. We had
16:03a similar issue with, um, with the war in Ukraine. So it's, it's very interesting to see that in the
16:09end,
16:09everyone comes back to the UN, both, uh, to, you know, usually it's first, please go help, uh, the
16:17suffering of, uh, of the populations. Sometimes it's for mediation, um, and, and often it is, um,
16:25you know, to work on, uh, creating the solutions, offering the blueprints for the way, uh, the way out,
16:33and for the next chapter. Right. And I think that's why your role as, you know, under secretary
16:40general of global communications to the UN is very important because, um, this is where you shine.
16:46You are, you, you shed light on the UN's works and efforts and ensure that, you know, those works and
16:52efforts, uh, being seen through, you know, these communities are impacted as well. So I want to talk
16:58a little bit about that as well. So, um, bringing it home a little bit, uh, to this side of
17:03the world,
17:04um, the UN is sometimes perceived as a distant institution. I mean, the headquarters is in New York
17:10and understand there are offices around the world, but some people are not even aware, you know,
17:15where the offices are. And, and for many people it's relevant to their everyday lives. It's not
17:21immediately clear. Right. So in your role, how do you make the UN's work tangible to people, particularly
17:29you know, in Malaysia and across Southeast Asia, where we see the UN as this big overarching thing.
17:36Um, and we can't really see a whole, or, you know, see the tangible results in our hands sometimes.
17:43Well, then we need to do more obviously and communicating better in, in, uh, in Malaysia. And
17:49it is, um, you know, it is a big communications challenge to demonstrate the work of the UN when
17:58it's not making headlines. There's a lot of quiet work, uh, going on that is really genuinely improving
18:04people's lives. Um, but it's, it's not really a, you know, breaking news story. Um, it's the,
18:12there's the work on, yeah, it's not real. There's nothing sensational about, you know,
18:18uh, you know, building schools or helping people, uh, develop water and sanitation systems. I do think
18:26that, you know, there are really good examples that do get a lot of press coverage, but that maybe
18:34could be, um, could be covered more, very difficult because journalists don't have access. Let's take
18:39the situation in Gaza. Yeah. Uh, UN humanitarians there have been absolutely heroic. Um, hundreds
18:48have lost their lives and many family members have also died. Um, they are not giving up, um,
18:57doing everything possible to reconstruct, uh, to bring in, uh, you know, to get rid of all. I mean,
19:03the place is, is, has been bombed to smithereens. People are living in, in the worst circumstances,
19:13intense, and we keep advocating, we keep getting blocked, but we keep trying and keep going back to
19:20bring in medicines, to bring in foods, to reestablish the ability to, for, for people to
19:26restart their lives, for kids to go back to school. And really, you know, these are kind of unsung
19:33heroes, but, and they never talk about themselves. They only talk about the people they're trying to
19:39help and the misery they're seeing and the access that they need. But, you know, maybe, maybe more
19:45light could be, um, shown on those, uh, incredible, um, people who are really risking their own lives to
19:54save others. If you look at, you know, the kind of work, um, particularly in Malaysia and in Southeast Asia,
20:02how much of, you know, the trust that you wanted, you know, for, for people in this region,
20:09must it be earned through communications? If you look at the UN family footprint
20:13in Malaysia, it is, it has a wide representation of UN agencies. So I do think it would be, um,
20:20an interesting story maybe to go on a field visit and, and to see what they do. I, for one,
20:26was able to meet when I was in Malaysia with the UN country team there, very committed, um,
20:33uh, group of people, um, who are, you know, really, you know, working day in and day out to try
20:38to
20:39improve lives. Um, and I paid a special visit to the UN refugee agency office there, um, and who is,
20:48you know, playing, playing an important role because Malaysia is, um, has taken in, um, large numbers
20:55of refugees and need the assistance of the UN refugee agency in, um, in, in registration and in managing,
21:05um, the, the refugee population case holds there. Right. And, you know, I met you as well when you
21:13Malaysia and we've had the discussion among youths as well. And I think we, um, in the media also work
21:19a lot with the UN officers here and we know the work that you do. And I guess on our
21:24part, we also
21:24need to do a better job at amplifying them. Before we move on, um, I want to talk a little
21:29bit about
21:29representation, um, especially from this part of the world. One of the biggest criticism of the UN is
21:36that its decision-making structures still reflects the balance of power that existed, you know, at the end of
21:42the second world war, uh, especially during this year's anger, there has been calls for security
21:48council reform. Um, and you know, there's been talks about underrepresentation and the need to give,
21:54you know, global sounds more voices or greater voice. What needs to change you think to ensure that
22:00the UN's decision-making structures reflect today's realities and, you know, represent these countries
22:07small. Um, what are your thoughts on this? Well, it's not my thoughts. It's actually the whole
22:14membership in the, um, of the UN in the Pact for the Future agreed to the expansion of the Security
22:21Council, um, in particular, um, well, to make it, to have it reflect, uh, the world of today, um, and
22:30the
22:30new membership, the current membership, um, of the United Nations so that every continent
22:36has representation, um, on the Security Council with permanent seats. Now that hasn't happened yet,
22:42but it was considered a big step in that direction. And, um, it, and there are, you know, the calls,
22:50um,
22:51to expand the Security Council are being built on that. So that's why you heard, um, a lot of, uh,
22:57uh, pressure and voices. And the only way this can change is through member state action. Um,
23:05it's not going to come from, uh, this, this Secretary General Antonio Guterres has been a champion
23:10for, uh, reform of the Security Council and not just that, also reform of the international financial
23:16institutions that were also, um, created after the Second World War and haven't, and do not, in his view,
23:23to reflect, uh, today's world and that are really so needed in the development of the membership of,
23:32um, of the United Nations and many of the countries that are drowning in debt. Um, uh, they're in
23:40desperate need of, um, of investment as debt relief, but also, um, the ability to take out, um, loans that
23:49are not going to shoulder them, um, with, with even, even worse, a worse situation so that they can
23:56make investments, um, in their own transformation, um, so that their citizens, uh, can receive health
24:02care and their kids can go to school, but also, um, that they can quickly transition, uh, to renewable
24:10energy to fuel their growing economies, which is just absolutely critical. So this is the kind of
24:17momentum that we need to see. All of those building blocks are there. All of the proposals
24:22are, stand, and it, it, it really just takes political will to make this happen.
24:29Yeah. And I think that's, that's the big elephant in the room, right? If there's no political will,
24:35there's no way for any solutions and measures to go forward. And I think handling 193 members,
24:41or even within the UN Security Council as well, um, I'm sure it's not an easy task. Um, right. We
24:49only
24:49have time for one more question, I'm afraid. So I guess we can, you know, maybe take a step back
24:55and
24:56look forward ahead. Um, 80 years on, probably we've done eight years, maybe 80 years more. What,
25:03what's one fundamental change you think is most urgently needed to ensure the UN remains relevant,
25:10representative and also effective probably over the next 40 years. And I think one extra question
25:17for you is how excited are you to possibly appoint, um, its first woman secretary general?
25:24Well, I mean, I think that, that second question could be the starting point because of course we need
25:31a new secretary general and, um, and I think most, most UN staff, um, and our, the current secretary,
25:40secretary general has been on the record saying it, it should be a woman. Um, we want, we, we need
25:46at
25:47the helm of the United nations, um, a leader who will carry forward the values and the principles,
25:54um, contained in the UN charter, um, and also be a, a very strong manager, um, and push for the
26:02kinds of,
26:02uh, of reforms, um, that are, are needed, uh, to keep this organization able to address all the
26:12challenges that come so rapidly. And one of those challenges to answer your first question that needs
26:18to be grappled with, which this secretary general spearheaded, uh, the, uh, framework around is how do we,
26:26uh, as a global community address the, uh, opportunities and also the risks of AI. Um,
26:34and this is something obviously that was not written in the UN charter and is the, probably one of the
26:40biggest new challenges of our time. And so that's one that needs to be grappled with. And, you know,
26:47there are men, there are already some frameworks, um, in place. Uh, there's an international scientific,
26:53uh, or an international AI panel, um, that is representative of the whole world, um, in place
27:00that is looking at the opportunities and the risks. And there are many UN organizations, um,
27:07and particularly led by the ITU, um, that is looking at, uh, all of the potential for AI to contribute
27:15to the kind of transformation that we're trying to achieve, um, and perhaps can help us to go faster
27:23and to make, uh, develop quicker, um, without as much funding as we thought that we needed. Um, so
27:30in the, in certain sectors, maybe AI can be a big boost for our work, um, in many parts of
27:37the world.
27:38Right. I think to be honest, if we want to talk about AI, we would need a separate show, um,
27:43just
27:43addressing risks and the, the, the governance that it needs and the regulations that we need to set up for
27:50it. Um, but thank you for bringing that up because it is very pertinent, you know, at this point in
27:54time. Um, I'm afraid that's all the time we have Melissa. Thank you so much for sharing your insights
27:59and perspective with us here on Awani Global. We truly appreciate you making the time to be here.
28:05Um, I think what's clear is that the question is not just, you know, what the organization has achieved,
28:11but also whether it can rise to meet the challenges of the world ahead. And I think we've discussed that
28:17at
28:17length here and thank you so much. Well, I can, I can guarantee you one thing that the UN will,
28:24will always try. It won't always succeed, but wherever the UN is based, it will be trying and
28:33let's hope for the best. And I think we on our side will try our very best too. Um, that's
28:40all the
28:41time we have. Thank you so much, Melissa, for joining us. And thank you to those at home for watching
28:45Awani Global. I'm Faina Sheh. I'll see you again.