- 29 minutes ago
AIMIM president and Hyderabad MP Asaduddin Owaisi addressed a range of political and socio-economic issues concerning minorities, electoral representation and governance at the India Today South Conclave. Owaisi argued that successive governments have treated religious minorities as a vote bank while failing to ensure proportional representation and independent political leadership. He also criticised both the BJP and parties that identify themselves as secular, questioning their record on political representation and justice. Owaisi raised concerns over the Election Commission's Special Intensive Revision (SIR) exercise, describing it as a “backdoor NRC” that could lead to voter disenfranchisement. He also opposed the Uniform Civil Code, arguing that constitutional pluralism must accommodate India's diversity. On parliamentary delimitation based on population, he warned that it could deepen the political divide between northern and southern states and affect minority representation. Meanwhile, former Election Commissioner Ashok Lavasa criticised the Election Commission's response to questions over SIR and changes to Form 6. He likened the poll body's concessions to “applying a Band-Aid to a fracture”, arguing that they did not address concerns over the fairness of the exercise. Lavasa and former CEC OP Rawat also questioned the procedure followed for issuing different versions of Form 6 and the absence of recorded minutes of constitutional decision-making.
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00:00Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like you to warmly welcome the president of the AIMIM, Mr. Asaduddin Ovesi,
00:07Member of Parliament. We see him very often make some of the fiercest speeches when it comes down
00:14to constitutional morality, equality, social justice in Parliament. He also has a record,
00:20I would reckon, of being the best attendance where Parliament is concerned. One of the best,
00:27Chalo. He's magnanimous there, one of the best. We have him today at a time where there's so much
00:32happening in Indian politics. As we speak, there will be an all-party meeting tomorrow,
00:41but we're going to come down to that. The CWC of the Congress at the back of what has been
00:45a damning news report where the Election Commission of India is concerned. All those questions,
00:50but let's come to the moot point. Minority matters. In a country, Ovesi Saab, like India,
00:56where you have, what, 14.2 percent Muslim population, 19.8 percent if you count all
01:02minorities. Minorities, of course, matter. But is India doing enough to safeguard the interest
01:08of our minorities, socially, politically? Are we equitable as per you?
01:16No. Are you asking me, has India done enough or the parties which have governed India done enough?
01:23Whichever way you'd want to. No, no, no. It's very important because if, in my opinion…
01:29Excessive government, sir. No, no. In my opinion, our founding fathers have given us a constitution
01:37wherein our constitution talks about that this country will not have a religion. It will celebrate
01:42all the religions and people who don't believe any god will also be respected. Our founding fathers,
01:48including Babasa Ambedkar, had given us fundamental rights, right to equality, Article 25, 26, 29,
01:55and 30. Now, parties that have governed India have completely marginalized the minorities,
02:03especially the Muslim community. They have made them politically disempowered. They have not allowed
02:11their growth in education, and they have been denied the political justice. That does it in short.
02:20So you're saying India has stood by its minorities, but the successive governments, be it whichever side
02:25of the political divide, haven't done justice to the minorities of this government?
02:28Exactly. Our… Our… We cannot question the country because, you know, my grandfather made a choice,
02:37which was a right choice, that we'll stay back in India. We didn't believe in this two-nation theory.
02:44We believed in the constitution. We believed in all the guarantees, the fundamental rights, and all the
02:49promises that were made. So it is the subsequent political parties, starting from Mr. Nehru up to Mr. Modi.
02:57You know, there's an empirical data of how Muslims have been made a mere voter and not being treated
03:04or given the equal status as a citizen with rights. And that is why we see various data, various studies,
03:12which show that Muslims are at the lowest ebb of everything.
03:16MS. But, Ovesi Saab, you know, we're going to come down to, you know, the politics of it,
03:21and how equitable have the politics been in this country. But you speak of data suggests,
03:25but data then also suggests that Muslims in this country continue to pick and vote for the Congress
03:30over even when you are in the same playing field, though you choose or you say that you represent
03:36their interests far better than a party which you think has only exploited them.
03:40So, I… I don't agree with that. I… I am of the opinion that the Muslims have always voted for
03:46the lesser of two evils.
03:48Muslims have always voted because they didn't have any alternate viable choice.
03:54And that is why they voted for whatever that was worth. In my opinion, that has not been worth it.
04:01So, if you see, the political representation of Muslims in… in the Lok Sabha is four percent.
04:11And we have BJP which has decided not to give any Muslim tickets and…
04:17MS. Save one in Kerala, Mallapuram.
04:19Okay. Save one in Kerala, but they lost the deposit over there, I think so.
04:24And you have other political parties who want Muslims to be treated only as authors,
04:29and who give a message to Muslims that BJP wants to marginalize you or exterminate you.
04:35You be grateful that we are keeping you alive. So, what is the choice left for Muslims now?
04:43MS. And I… this is a very big, important question. What is the choice left for Muslims?
04:47MS. The other ones to marginalize you. The BJP, RSS ideology we know. They believe in a Hindu
04:54Rashtra. And you have other so-called political alternative, which only treats Muslims as authors.
05:01So, where do we fit into this whole political spectrum? That is why,
05:06when I talk about… without political justice, you cannot get economic and social justice. That is
05:12very important. MS. You speak, Mr. Rovesi, of the RSS. And I'll just go back to the last statement
05:21that has come in from Mr. Mohan Bhagwat. He was in New York. And he says that for any Hindu
05:26who thinks
05:27that Muslims should not live or be present in India, then you're not a Hindu. Do you… how do you
05:33read that comment?
05:34MR. You see, these… these are all… Mr. Mohan Bhagwat had given a talk
05:40in United States of America. You must remember that the U.S. State Department,
05:46Department of Freedom and Religion, had given a very, very strong adverse report about RSS.
05:53MR. So, Mr. Mohan Bhagwat was there to send them a very positive message. And can one forget what was
06:01written by Mr. Gulwalkar in We Our Nation Who Defined in Bunch of Thoughts? Can… can he deny what
06:10Dean Jalupad said in his theory of integral humanism? For example, if few Hindus get together,
06:16how do they think? And if few Muslims get together, how do they think? There are various speeches. You see,
06:22RSS is an ideological party. This is just, you know, to divert or to, you know, put a wool over
06:32our eyes.
06:33And that is why Mohan Bhagwat has been saying this for a long time. But what is happening on the
06:38ground
06:38is completely opposite to what he has said. Because he agrees, you know, unless and until the RSS supports
06:45what is happening on the ground. So, if they decide it has to stop, it will stop in a few
06:51days,
06:52a few months. But it has to continue to keep this boogie of Muslims being an internal threat.
06:59That was written by, uh, Gulwalkar in his book, A Bunch of Thoughts.
07:04Okay. So, you disregard that statement. You speak of the Congress. We are sitting in Kerala,
07:10Ovesi Saab. And, um, you've also never decided or thought that, uh, or deemed fit that your party
07:18should fight elections in Kerala, considering that there is a sizable minority representation.
07:23Yes. And you've always chosen not to do so. First, why?
07:26Because I feel the Indian Muslim, Indian Muslim has been doing a, uh, fantastic work over here.
07:32And, uh, and we should, I think if, if need, if, if there's a need, I'll strengthen the IUML.
07:38Why should I come and disturb them? Because they are doing a very good job for many years. The
07:43Tangal family has done fantastic work over here. They have made a lot of sacrifices, uh, for the
07:49development of community. And I feel that it should continue.
07:53Then why is it, Ovesi Saab, that, um, party like the Congress, you've spoken about the BJP,
07:59but a party like the Congress, which you say has only exploited the Muslim community, um, calls itself
08:05a secular party, has no qualms aligning with an IUML and being in alliance with the IUML in Kerala,
08:14but will always, always never, ever ally with the AIMIM despite you offering an alliance multiple times.
08:23They don't trust you. They feel you're the team B of the BJP. It's an old cliché term, but I'm
08:30trying to, you know, give you examples on why the Congress distrusts of you. Because they say you're
08:35a secular party. If they align with you, then they feel that they could project an anti-Hindu image.
08:41Why is that? Why is that quandary there? Well, this, the, the, you know,
08:47blaming me for your losses is, is very easy. You know, uh, 2014 Modi became the prime minister. How many
08:57Lok Sabha seats have I contested? 2019 he won more than 300 seats. You still want to blame me?
09:052024. Yes, the numbers came down, but there's still one. The issue is that one should not compare
09:13what is happening in Kerala with what is happening, uh, uh, in other places of India, because traditionally,
09:21uh, IUML has been with Congress party. They stood even with them,
09:26even when the demolition of Babur Masjid took place.
09:29Question that needs to be asked is why can't the Congress tolerate the political leadership,
09:35which IUML has created for the Muslims over here in other parts of India? What is stopping them?
09:44They don't want it. And, and, and please don't forget that even, uh, the, the, the riots which took
09:50place when Mr. Nehru was a prime minister and GB Pan was the chief minister, the fatalities were high
09:56on the Muslim side. You don't want to have an alliance with me. Fine. The heavens are not going
10:02to fall on me. You know, the skies are not going to fall, but I will definitely strive for, uh,
10:08for
10:08Muslim political justice. And I will continue to fight the elections. So this whole argument of Boogie
10:15Oh, if I fight, uh, the, you're helping BJP. So, okay, come, let's have an alliance. You don't want
10:22to have an alliance, but I am good for you when the 2008 nuclear deal, uh, was there. I was
10:29very good
10:29for you, you know, at that time. And then, uh, uh, recently in our state, there was a by-election
10:37in
10:37Jubilee Hill. I was, uh, I was very, uh, sweet for you. Uh, and then, uh, I was very good
10:45for you when you
10:46took my support in the Rajasova elections of Bihar, when an RJD candidate was a sitting MP and
10:52the Congress had six MLAs, four didn't turn up. One Muslim Emily of RJD didn't turn up. Our MLS
10:59turned up and voted for them. So, so this is it. But issue is that you don't want to tolerate
11:06any political Muslim independent political agency. You just don't want it. You have other side, BJP
11:14doesn't even want to talk about, uh, the word Muslims. And you, here you have all secular parties
11:20who treat us as mere otters, as show boys. You know, we are only important at the time of
11:27Iftar party. We are only important at time of some Dargah or us. Uh, we should be seen there,
11:33uh, offering some flowers. Uh, you know, I fast for 14 hours and when a most Congress Hindu leader
11:40comes, I should open his mouth and put that date in his mouth, then open my fast.
11:45That cannot be the case. You see, it, it should, when you believe in equality,
11:50you, you should show it. But anyway, let us see what happens. We are still ready for an Alliance
11:55despite, uh, the India Alliance taking four MLAs of ours in Bihar. That was, uh, not, that was Gandhian
12:04politics. But if Shiftena was broken, it was not Gandhian politics. So that is the reality over here.
12:13You talk about alliances and, uh, you know, for those of our viewers, our audience, uh,
12:19I'll make it clear. There's less than six months. There's an election in Uttar Pradesh and, uh, OVC
12:26saham's party has fought in Uttar Pradesh, but strangely, it hasn't given his party as much luck as
12:31Seher Bihar, uh, has. And this time around, he has made it very clear to both the Samajwadi
12:38party and the Congress that I am open, like he did in Bihar as well, that you are open for
12:43an Alliance.
12:44Don't cry later if votes are cut. Yet nobody has responded to you, sir, neither Samajwadi party,
12:51nor Akhilesh ji. See, we have given them this opportunity.
12:56They want, they don't want it. That is their choice. The constitution gives me the right to
13:02contest selection. I'll contest the election. You didn't want an Alliance with me in Bihar,
13:06despite me writing a letter to the Congress party, RJD, CPI, ML, CPI, give us six seats.
13:14You didn't give us six seats. We won back those four MLAs, which you took away from us. And, uh,
13:20we won five seats. And, uh, in one seat, we lost by 350 odds, other by 9,000 odds. Other,
13:27in every other assembly segment, which we contested, the minimum odd, which we got in Bihar was 13,000,
13:3414,000 odds. Of course, we want, we don't want the BJP to win again third time in Uttarak Pradesh,
13:41because Hindutva is a bigger challenge to us. And we want to stop them. Now, if you believe in,
13:47in that, okay, show your magnanimity, at least, or show your, uh, intellectual honesty in stopping
13:55Hindutva. So, you've offered an Alliance till now, nobody seems interested. No, no, see, I, I cannot
14:02force anyone, you see. No, you've offered. See, in love and in election Alliance, you cannot have a
14:07forced, uh, uh, uh, you know, Alliance. So, I want to ask you. And it cannot be one side also.
14:15Fair point. But there has been a two side Alliance in UP before where you tried
14:19very, um, you know, I think it was a politically smart move that Dalits and the Muslims come together.
14:26The AIMIM fought that election with BSP. This time, you know, we didn't, we didn't. But there was an
14:31informal kind of grouping together. No, no, no, no. We had an Alliance with, uh, Mr. Babu Singh Kushwaha.
14:36Ha. Uh, and other smaller parties, which we didn't win any seat. You did. But there was an
14:43understanding. But now, Mr. Babu Singh Kushwaha is a Samajwadi member of Parliament from Jonapur. Ha.
14:48But he still retains his party also at the same time. But there was an understanding that you were
14:53open to go with the BSP at one point of time. No, see, that Alliance didn't happen. But why,
15:00so this time around, have you accepted that, that Mayawati ji or BSP's politics is pretty much ended
15:06in UP at least in this election? No, no, I have not said that. It's still an open game? No,
15:11we, we,
15:11we want to have an Alliance so that, uh, BJP does not forms a government third time over there. So
15:17BSP
15:17is an option? So only time will tell, uh, we will have an Alliance with whom we don't know.
15:22Okay. So first option is Samajwadi party and the Congress. You've already said it. No, no,
15:27it's not a question of option. If it happens, we'll let you know. If it doesn't happen,
15:31it's fine. We'll contest the elections. And BSP is still open as an option. No, why? I don't know
15:36why you're only talking about one political party. There are many political parties out there. Okay.
15:41So it's one of the many political parties where options are still open. They are very important
15:45political party. Yes. All right. You talk about, uh, why is it that the Congress is not, uh, you know,
15:51comfortable or the Samajwadi party as well, not comfortable with you in Uttar Pradesh.
15:56Um, because OVC sahab, I'll ask you a question. Do you consider AIMIM as a secular party?
16:02Well, if I was not secular, my party will not have been registered in the election commission of India.
16:07That is the law. You consider the BJP a secular party then? No.
16:12By the same virtue, I can give you the same argument. No, because, because, because, uh,
16:15because, uh, actions, uh, and their statements speak louder than that. And your actions and your
16:21statements, sir? No, no. I'll, I'll, I'll prove you why I'm saying that. BJP does not believes in
16:25the secularism which has been enshrined, uh, as part of a basic structure of our constitution. BJP,
16:33uh, the present prime minister made a famous statement that you identify people with the clothes which
16:38they are wearing. The BJP has passed laws which are religious centric, uh, which the constitution
16:44does not allow us. The BJP has not stopped mob lynching. The BJP has not stopped the demolition
16:50of masjids which has taken place. And I feel that more than about thousand masjids have been demolished
16:56so far. BJP has made laws, uh, on waf to grab waf property, not to protect it. And BJP has
17:04made UAPA
17:05more stringent than what the Mr. Chidambaram had bought a bill. So on these grounds, yes, we have,
17:13we definitely oppose, uh, what has happened over here. So I don't, I, I don't, I will not call BJP
17:20as secular, but I would call them as a right wing, uh, party having, uh, at its core RSS ideologies.
17:27And then you have these so-called secular political parties, uh, who, who call themselves secular,
17:33but when it comes to the political empowerment of Muslims, they don't have that intellectual honesty
17:39to stand with the community and to ensure that they progress politically, they get, uh, their rightful
17:44share. You know, I'll give you an example. There is a study which has a study which is done by
17:49some
17:50famous American university. I don't remember the name that the intergenerational operability in all
17:56the communities in India has, has improved. For example, what my grandfather was earning hundred
18:01rupees. Everyone is earning more than two hundred rupees now. You know, there's only one community
18:06which is earning less than what my grandfather is earning. That is Muslim community. Now you want to,
18:11you want to make me respond for that? I'll take that credit. But you are in power.
18:16Okay. So, but you think your party is a secular party?
18:20Of course I'm a secular party. Not a so-called secular party, not a…
18:23See, if, if I am saying that, uh, a community should get his rightful share
18:29and our, uh, constitution talks about the representative form of democracy.
18:34Mm-hmm. So, if each and every community gets a political voice or a space in, in, in the corridors
18:43of power, that is the parliament and the assembly and the panchay and the local bodies, what is wrong
18:48in that? No, I'm just, what I'm, I'm not saying there's anything wrong. I'm just, all I'm saying is
18:53that the advisors for the Congress and the Samajbadi Party advise both the political parties that by
19:00allying with somebody like you will give them and paint them anti-Hindu, which is a picture that
19:05they don't want in Uttar Pradesh. No, no, no. So, are you accepting that Congress and Samajbadi
19:10Party are getting Hindu vote? They think, they see, they've gotten the Hindu, if you go by 2024?
19:16No, no, if you go by… Lok Sabha election data, they've managed a fair amount of the Hindu…
19:20Good, good, good. If you go by 2024 in Uttar Pradesh, 80 percent of the upper caste voted for BJP,
19:2760 percent Kurmi and Kyori community voted for BJP, 9 out of 10 Rajput voted for a BJP. What more
19:36consolidation do you want? Can I give you another figure in that? The non-Jatab Dalits, how much did
19:40they vote? Because you know the numbers, so you will know the numbers of how much they voted for the
19:45Congress and the Samajbadi Party. Even within the Dalit community, the Paasi community voted for BJP.
19:50In pockets, not really. No, no, no, they have… Ayodhya, sir? No, no, see, you should go back
19:56to your program on the day of the elections, where you had Mr., the great famous Pradeep Gupta over
20:01there, and he was giving you all the data. No, no, no, you're talking about the Paasi community,
20:05I'll give you an example on the seat of Ayodhya. It is, the Paasis decide that seat,
20:09and that seat has gone to Samajbadi Party. But let's not get into the… No, no, there can be some
20:14exceptions here and there. Right. But, okay, let's not, let's not get into that. What's happening at
20:19this juncture, Ovesi Saab, that along while we get caught into binaries of religion of Hindu-Muslim,
20:25there is this new breed of voters that have come that they don't understand binaries. We call them
20:31the Gen Z, at least with what we've seen, in the manner in which they've conducted and spoken about
20:35their politics. They don't understand Hindu, they don't understand Muslim. Do you think this could,
20:42or this new voter group could be as much a problem for you as it is for the BJP?
20:48I'm, you know, what problem? When my masjid is being demolished, when I'm being shot in a false
20:56encounter, when my names are being cut in SIR, when a law is being made to take away my places
21:05of worship,
21:06when the lower judicial judgments go contrary to the Supreme Court judgments and my place of worship
21:13is grabbed, I'm already in a huge problem. What more problem can be created? You know, I'm at the
21:19abyss. I only have to rise from here and I'm sure the phoenix will rise. So, you know, it's democracy
21:26allows them to say what they have to say. But why is it that you say that, oh, more problems
21:34for me?
21:34I'm not saying more problems. I'll tell you why. Because…
21:37You know, you should say it will be more problem for BJP.
21:40I think that it is a problem for the BJP. Good, that is, that is good.
21:43But I think it could also be a problem for you.
21:45No, no, obviously it doesn't matter. You know, more the… I'll be happy if there's more competition.
21:51No problem. And I'm… So, the… Does your politics speak to the young
21:55voter of this country? Of course. It does. Yes. Beyond the lines of… Yes, you should,
22:00you see, you should come and sit in my one public meeting, not as a India Rudd reporter,
22:05but somewhere sit and see the… the people who are coming to my public meeting, we don't mobilize them.
22:13You know, like other political parties do, 10 buses here, 10 buses there, one lunch box,
22:19one this box, one that bottle, that is not there. People come out of affection. And you'll see them
22:25that maybe 70, 80 percent are young youth who have now decided that they will not fall into this trap
22:33of being a mere voter and who will not fall, who will not fear in voting for a party just
22:39because BJP
22:40has to be defeated. They want to defeat BJP, but at the same time they want a… a political agency
22:46for themselves. The latest politics right now is drawn against the election commission of this
22:56country, OVC Saab, and the SIR process which the ECI has been conducting. You have now gone on record to
23:05say that the SIR is a backdoor entry of the NRC. Yes, it is like that. Why do you say
23:11that?
23:12It is an NRC, it's a backdoor NRC, because what you have to do is that first you have to
23:18find out where was my mother,
23:20or father, or my grandfather, or grandmother in 2003. Which house was he in? Which village was he in? Then
23:27I go back to which assembly constituency he was in. Then I check his name was there in 2003. If
23:33it was there, what is the spell?
23:35What was the spelling used to write down my father's or grandmother's name? Then I write that name with the
23:44booth number, with the constituency number, and then I keep on praying, O God, Allah, my name should come in
23:51draft list. Okay,
23:52it has come in draft list. Then after draft list, then I get a notice. And in notice, if it
23:58is unmapped documents,
24:01where should I get documents from? In India, people are surviving, you know, where should we get our next meal?
24:07This government and ECI talks about SIR. You should get those 12 documents. And then if, even if I give
24:14those 12 documents, we don't know what will happen with that great ERO over there, you know, that, that,
24:20that software which election commission, ECN, we don't know. And then, and when I read the representation of
24:27people's act, where is this word anomaly there? I don't find an anomaly over there. So what is this?
24:34And then please remember, Mr. Amit Shah has gone on record and said that we will do NRC also. Now,
24:40what form of NRC can take place? Can it take shape? You go back to Assam, 3 crore 30 lakh
24:47people,
24:48everyone was asked to get documents. Everyone was rushing for documents, parental linkage,
24:56where was he in 1966, 1950? I mean, even after that, nearly 19 lakh people names have not come.
25:05You know what happens in, in, in, after 19 lakhs, the 2 lakh Muslims are there. Mr. Hemant Abhis Khan
25:11says,
25:11oh, no, no, no, I want an, another NRC. Why? Because according to his whims, he wanted more Muslims in
25:18that NRC.
25:20After Supreme Court monitored NRCs after having spent 1100 crores. So, and many people have committed
25:27suicide in Assam. Many people have been, you know, even now as we speak, the case of Mumtaz Begum.
25:35Without a court saying anything, the Assam chief minister dumped her in, in Bangladesh.
25:41And the, today, Times of India has reported that the, the Bangladesh Home Ministry is trying to locate,
25:47where is Mumtaz Begum? The Gauhati High Court ordered a compensation of 10 lakhs to Mumtaz Begum's husband.
25:55An Indian has been thrown inside Bangladesh, and the chief minister takes prides in that.
25:59So, that is NRC.
26:02So, you think it's a backdoor NRC? I was talking to some of the Congress leaders, OVC Sahab here only,
26:06and they say, because there is now a rallying cry, you're not a part of it, there's an all-party
26:11meet
26:11tomorrow in Delhi, uh, deliberating on the election commission of India at the back of what is a damning
26:17report that has come in a newspaper. But some of the Congress leaders I was speaking to are saying,
26:22OVC Sahab doesn't have to worry, wo toh apna sara chunaaf jeet rahe.
26:25No, unko hara ke jeet rahe na. Congress ko bhi hara rahe. You see, uh, when I was fighting
26:31elections in 2024 on behalf of my party, all the top Congress leaders campaigned against me.
26:37I didn't say you're, you have come.
26:39I want the CEC to step down. Should the CEC step down? Because that's the demand of the opposition.
26:45Do you know who CEC is?
26:46The chief election commissioner.
26:47No, no. Do you know his background? He came from this state.
26:50Yes.
26:51Yes. Yes, he came from this state.
26:53Kerala.
26:53Then you know, he used to work for which ministry under whom?
26:58You will not say that he was working with Mr. Amit Shah, great Amit Shah.
27:03And he was, and he's his appointee. Do you think he'll, he'll, they'll make him resign?
27:09No, it will not happen.
27:11No, it will not happen. So, but for me, an SIR is going on in Telangana. I have to ensure
27:18that
27:19lakhs of lakhs of people who have got these notices for what? For what reason?
27:24Six children notice. Twins. I have twin daughters. You know, I, I had to work for nearly four days to
27:32convince that BLO boss. It is not my mistake, not my wife mistake that she, we, she gave birth to
27:38twins at one.
27:39No, no, no, no. What is my mistake? He's not. So, does Asaduddin Ovesi want the CEC to step down?
27:51I want SIR to go away. Listen to me. I have made a speech in the parliament, opposing this bill
28:00of
28:00selection of CEC. Unfortunately, many opposition people boycotted, they're suspended. And I had said
28:07in my speech, the way you're going to appoint, uh, appoint a CEC, it will reduce the credibility
28:13of the election commission in the eyes of the Indians. And that has happened right now
28:18with all these, uh, uh, great, uh, uh, work done by Indian express reporters.
28:23Where is the credibility now? Where is the credibility? People in the eyes of the people
28:29of India, the credibility has gone down. But do you, but if you ask me, will he resign? I don't
28:34think so. He'll resign. Should he resign? Well, we don't know if he, if he resigns on, uh, upholding,
28:41uh, the independence of election commissioner of India. Fantastic. But I don't think so that will
28:46happen. Is it a demand by your party? My demand is SR, SR should be, SR should be scrapped. That's
28:53your
28:53demand. Yes, that is the main demand. See, we are sitting here in a very comfortable five-star hotel,
28:59fantastic hotel. Thank you, Kaushik for calling me, you know, uh, but if you go down on the streets,
29:05in my state, out of the 12 documents, we don't have three documents. NRC has not happened. Family
29:11register is not given. I hear you. So you want the SIR to be scrapped? Yes, that has to be.
29:18You can continue. No, no, I'm not saying. See, continue or what? You, you make me the prime
29:23minister, I'll remove him. You, you're a political party. You have a, you can, like, the other
29:29political parties that are demanding. See, you have an ex-election, you have an ex-election
29:34commissioner sitting over there. You know, you should ask me. They have their both. One is an EC. Yeah,
29:38I know, I know. They have their session. See, let us, see, let us have real, let us make a
29:43realistic
29:44point. What is important for us? Okay. It is SIR that has to go. But unfortunately,
29:49Supreme Court has upheld it. Last two questions that I will ask you, OVC Saab, where we talk,
29:54you talk about the Home Minister, Mr. Ramit Shah. He also speaks of what is a long-standing
30:01dream of the BJP, which is the UCC. And one by one, each BJP-run state, 21 of them, will
30:09implement
30:10the UCC. What are your views on that? So they'll open many windows, but not quite the door. That
30:15ultimately means India has UCC. No, no, I understand. Uniformity or sameness
30:20is not the same as equality. BJP must first accept diversity if you want equality. You don't accept
30:28the diversity of this country. How can you get equality? For example, in Hindus, the marriage is
30:37in Muslims, it is a contract between two equals and the UCC of Uttarakhand, Assam and Gujarat
30:47is nothing but Hindu marriage act, Hindu succession act, Hindu divorce act. How are you going to impose
30:55that on me? What about article 25? What about article 26, 29, right to protect culture, right
31:03equality, article 14? And why are we forgetting that when the drafting committee in the constant
31:11assembly was debating, then article 35, which became 44, the great Molvi Ismail, the founder of
31:19UML, Mr. Ismail has openly said it, he moved it, he moved the amendment that you cannot take away the
31:26personal law of the religious rights of the community. And what did Ambedkar say? Baba Sahib said that yes,
31:33if you will, we will not force it on anyone before article 44 was, we will not force it on
31:39anyone.
31:40If anyone wants it, let them accept it. This was the vision and the statement of
31:45Waba Sahib and BJP is working contrary to that. How is it that 21% of tribals in Madhya Pradesh
31:53are
31:53excluded and 7% Muslims are there? Fair point, that's a good point. So why should, see in Muslims,
32:02you don't have judicial separation. Grandson does not get the share in his grandfather property.
32:08How is it that? You know, you, you, you first, you accept the diversity and why are you imposing,
32:14if that is the case, why are you giving him the tax rebate of nearly 1500 crores every under Hindu
32:20undivided family? Why not to me? And then the second question you might ask, Oh, Goa, you have UCC,
32:28but in Goa, no, no, you might not like it. What I'm saying in Goa, if a Hindu marries someone
32:34and his
32:35wife does not gives him a son by the age of 25 or a child or by 30, a male
32:42child is not born,
32:43that gentleman can have a second wife. Why don't we make a law that if someone deserts his wife
32:51and becomes a constitutional authority, where is the wife? Fair point. But OVC,
32:57Saab, you are a champion of equality. You've just elucidated that. Why is it that Mr. Asaduddin
33:02OVC then doesn't stand up and say anything against the likes of Mr. Abu Bakar, who makes the most
33:07misogynistic, sexist statement in this state, Kerala? Well, you allowed, well, you, you allowed,
33:12uh, uh, who's this Malaysian prime minister? What's his name? Who was here?
33:19Anwar Ibrahim went and met him. Government of India arranged it.
33:24What does that have to do with you criticizing him?
33:26Are you asking me, madam? Anwar Ibrahim, a foreign dignitary comes,
33:31flies down and goes and meets, uh, AP Abu Bakar. And, you know, he has a right to say his
33:40statement,
33:40you and me don't agree, don't agree, fine. Do you agree or do you disagree? See, in what-
33:45Because there are a lot of young Muslim girls who look up to you as a champion of equality,
33:50to call this out. You see, I, I have said in my speech that
34:03You will be surprised that if you come to Hyderabad, I'll show you Muslim girls riding Triumph 900 CC.
34:16So, so, so, so don't, so don't generalize, you see, and everyone has a right to their opinion.
34:24What, what is wrong in that? We'll disagree with that. Fantastic.
34:28Do you disagree?
34:29In if, in what context that was made?
34:31I'll tell you, it, it was just made in one very clear context that most of the girls in Kerala,
34:35who are Muslim as well understand that girls and women should not go out in public spaces.
34:40That's what was the context. That, that, that is his opinion.
34:44Is it, do you agree?
34:45No, I might agree. I might not agree. But why make it an issue?
34:48Because, sir, he is somebody who is on a public stage and he is a cleric.
34:52No, sir, there are many clerics who, who has a different view than him.
34:56What, what, what, what would you tell them?
34:57I'm not asking him. I'm asking you.
34:59No, no, no. No, no, no. You should call a cleric and ask him,
35:01the Shafiq jurisprudence or the Hanafi jurisprudence, ask them, they'll tell you.
35:09No, I was asking you as a representative.
35:11No, I've answered it. I've answered it in a very clear way.
35:13I'll ask you one final question, delimitation.
35:16Your views on delimitation have been very clear, Mr. Rovesi.
35:20But when the government comes out and says that where are the South, we're sitting in the South,
35:23everybody will get, every state will get a proportional increase in, in the South.
35:28Well, how do we believe them? If the delimitation happens on the basis of population,
35:34then the North will rule and South will be ruled. So our, the South share will come down to 20
35:42percent.
35:42And out of those 850 seats, round about 400, 450 seats will be from north of India.
35:50Second problem with that is that they'll be gerrymandering. And I'll give you a specific example of what,
35:56No, I'll give you. Kashmir has 56 percent, Kashmir division has 56 percent population.
36:04What is their share in assembly seats? 52 percent. Jammu division has what, 43 percent population and
36:11their share is 47 percent. In Assam, there were two lokes of our seats which could have been easily won
36:16by
36:16Muslims. Now it has reduced to one. There were 30 assembly Muslim majority seats, it had to be reduced to
36:2220.
36:22Now who's going to control the gerrymandering? Is, is your charge that the government through
36:27delimitation is going to try and make Muslims politically ineffective? The share of Muslims,
36:33see BJP is not giving any tickets to Muslims. The other so-called secular parties have reduced the
36:40Muslims to mere voters and mere show boys, right? And the, the representation of Muslims in Indian
36:45parliament is 4 percent. Only 4 percent. Does that speaks volumes about our democracy?
36:52That you have an 18 crore population. They are only 4 percent getting elected and every, everything can be
36:58blamed on me. You know, I'm fine with that. I, I take, I take it as a badge of honor.
37:02But what is it that
37:03you're doing? You don't have a Muslim in Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Karnataka. You, you go to Gujarat. Gujarat from
37:131984, not a single Muslim MP is there. Rajasthan, Delhi, there's so many states.
37:21So if you're talking about under-representation, who's under-represented? Who's, who should get his
37:29rightful share? Where is my political voice? Where is my political agency? Why have you not created that
37:35political agency? When Brahmans have it, Thakurs have it, Nair's have it, you name any, any community,
37:42even Dalits have the political agency. But Muslims are being told, no, you must only vote
37:48and be silent and suffer everything, whether it's bulldozer, masjid encounter. But at the time of
37:55elections, secularism, Zandabad, and vote for those political parties who have played a major role
38:01in marginising you. OVC Sahab, this is always a great pleasure to speak with you. And I am glad you
38:07chose India to come here. Thank you, thank you for inviting me. I must thank my friend Kaushik.
38:11Again, thank you. But for his insistence. But thank you, OVC Sahab, for doing this for us. And thank you
38:17so much.
38:18Tomorrow, the all-party meet, you don't think you should have been invited?
38:22Well, it is a club of old-school boys. I don't fit in that.
38:26The hot-button political topic, as well as now a topic of conversation for the Gen Z,
38:32is the Election Commission of India. It all started with a news report in the Indian Express,
38:38raising pertinent questions against the Election Commission of India's conduct.
38:44Ever since, we have seen the ECI come up with two press releases in one of them,
38:49as per the ECI, issuing a point-by-point rebuttal, something which the political parties in the country
38:55are not quite buying. And now, the Kokoro Janata Party will start a jail-bharo-andolan on the 2nd of
39:01October, asking for the resignation of the CEC, Mr. Gyanesh Kumar.
39:07What we will do is, we have the country's two former election commissioners with us.
39:13All the issues that have been brought up by the report in the Indian Express is something
39:18we'd be asking them, putting questions on, and also the response of the ECI.
39:22I have with me former EC, Mr. Ashok Lawasa. Thank you, sir, for joining us.
39:26And former EC, Mr. O.P. Rawat. Both of them are here with us at the South Conclave for India
39:33today,
39:34and are joining me right now. Mr. Lawasa, let's begin with you, because we've discussed at length,
39:39the charges, or at least the queries that have been put up by the Indian Express report.
39:45The Election Commission of India, in now the latest statement, has attempted to give a point-by-point
39:52rebuttal with the picture of all three ECs together, suggesting that this was a decision,
39:58and all three election commissioners are on board with what the EC is trying to say.
40:04Do you think they've been able to justify and explain the charges of the news report,
40:10or certain questions still beckon answers? In fact, the impression that I got after reading
40:16the press statement was that, one, it's some kind of an admission of all the allegations that were
40:24being levelled. Number two, I felt that there was an attempt to appear to be a little responsive
40:31and do course correction. But I thought that course correction was like applying a band-aid to a
40:39fracture, because the entire exercise of SIR does not become fair because you provide a few concessions
40:50to people. And third, I thought that there are a number of questions which arise from the press
40:57statement itself. To give an example about Form 6, there is a clear admission that there is a
41:05declaration form which is being used in Form 6 in the SIR. And the Election Commission is clarifying that
41:13A, this was upheld by the Supreme Court, and B, that there is a difference between
41:19form used in SIR and form used in non-SIR. So actually I am very confused because the rule does
41:28not permit two versions of the same form.
41:31So how does it... And yet there were two versions of the same form. Exactly. So how does it get
41:35validated?
41:36It is not clear to me. And the final impression I got was, I found some of the explanations a
41:47little ridiculous.
41:48Because for the Election Commission to say that henceforth agenda will be issued and minutes will be recorded,
41:55I thought, how can a constitutional body, which has to work in accordance with the Act, which says that you
42:06will take decisions unanimously or by majority.
42:09If you don't maintain minutes, how does anyone know whether it was unanimous or by a majority?
42:17So I think these are the questions. I don't feel satisfied at the response at all.
42:24So you think, you know, you don't feel satisfied and the Election Commission of India has much still to answer
42:30to.
42:31Exactly. That's what you feel.
42:32Mr. Rawat, what's your opinion of the explanation and the press release by the Election Commission of India?
42:41I agree only with what Mr. Ashok Lavasa, my colleague at the Election Commission, has said.
42:49In fact, if the Election Commission wanted to sort of close the chapter or stop the simmering of this whole
43:00issue for long,
43:02should have come out comprehensively from the very beginning.
43:06means the start of SIR in Bihar and all other issues and all three of them should have put everything
43:18in public domain through the media.
43:21So you think they should have, instead of a press release with a picture, there should have been a press
43:25conference?
43:26Answering everything.
43:27And should have taken every question?
43:28Yes. It would have shut down the whole thing. Nobody would then come forward and agitate.
43:37So you are saying by issuing a statement which raises more questions than it answers, the ECI has further painted
43:47itself in a corner.
43:48And it has been the tradition with the ECI. Whenever even slightest issue came up, the Election Commission will go
43:54whole hog to answer that comprehensively, squarely and to the satisfaction of common man.
44:01And they fail to do so at least till now.
44:03These two press notes, etc. are too little too late.
44:08Too little too late?
44:09Yeah.
44:10Inadequate would you say?
44:11Yeah.
44:12And inadequate.
44:13Inadequate, yeah.
44:13Mr. Lava, sir, I'm here. I know you want to comment, but first make your point, sir.
44:18No, I just wanted to add that, you know, a press note is not open to being questioned.
44:25Hmm.
44:26If you have a press conference and you present your viewpoint, then whoever has a doubt, he has an opportunity
44:32to ask you a question and equally you have an opportunity to clarify further.
44:37So I think actually they have denied themselves this opportunity.
44:42And which they could have, you know, taken every question and answered every question.
44:47I want to, you know, Mr. Lava, sir, I want to delve a little deeper onto the questions that were
44:51raised and today are still being asked and something that hasn't been at least replied to where, you know, the
44:58press note is concerned.
44:59Yes, the issue of form six and admittance that possibly there wasn't an extra in a form of an extra
45:05question added, which doesn't quite agree with what had to be done in the rules and the norms.
45:11The question on why 16.1 lakh voters in West Bengal on their, you know, why there were, why ECI
45:22in itself had lodged appeals for their names to be taken out and deleted.
45:26There was no answer on that.
45:28And that still remains a big, you know, loophole or a question that West Bengal on what really happened.
45:37In fact, that, of course, is a very clear case where ECI has not responded to a very burning issue.
45:45And it's not just that the question was raised by the one of the election commissioners.
45:51But it is a fact that if you look at the history of role preparation in India, after a role
45:58has been finalized in any state for 16 lakh appeals to be filed against people whose names have been included
46:07following a due process.
46:08So we were told that SIR is an effort to purify the electoral rolls and to make sure that no
46:16ineligible person is allowed to remain in the poll.
46:20So how come that you have more than 16 lakh appeals being filed?
46:24And if indeed they have been filed by somebody from the commission or somebody who's authorized by the commission, it's
46:32very problematic because then you're questioning your own procedure.
46:37Then other than this, see, you also had this case where you have 22 and a half lakh appeals filed.
46:45The deleted.
46:47The deleted orders.
46:48And then out of that one lakh 26,000 or 30,000 have been adjudicated.
46:5393,000 have been found to 93 percent have been found to be wrongfully deleted.
46:58So they've passed the purity.
46:59That itself is a scathing criticism of the quality of SIR.
47:04But more than that, I think what worries me is that is the election commission of India satisfied that so
47:15many lakhs of people, their voting rights should remain suspended for 10 or 12 years, which it will take for
47:23the adjudication to complete?
47:24Yes, because the, yeah, because the numbers that are less, like now 38 lakhs, which includes the 22 plus the
47:3016.
47:31Exactly.
47:31And it would take about 12 years at the pace with which the EC is going to hear those appeals.
47:37Though even the EC is saying that they will try and increase the number of tribunals from 19 to 42,
47:43even then it will only reduce the time by seven years.
47:45So it will still take another election cycle.
47:49Precisely.
47:49Fair point.
47:50I want to ask, you know, Mr. Rawat, I want to ask you this one question.
47:55Where do you think the questions that have been raised, which you said, have not quite been answered, at least
48:02by the election commission of India?
48:05A press conference now, because now the demand is by a lot of political sets or pressure groups, you may
48:11call, for the CEC stepping down.
48:13But the answer has always been that all three of them might have, there might be differences, but they all
48:20unanimously came together.
48:22How, you know, there might have been differences or dissent, but the decision was unanimous.
48:26So how does it go away from unanimity clause?
48:31Actually, I personally feel that so long as these people do not talk in public, it is more or less
48:39like a black box emanating some grey.
48:43That's why we cannot jump on any such conclusion unless every question, every corollary is answered.
48:49So you're saying ultimately, it's a press conference that needs to happen immediately, where the ACI makes everything clear.
48:56But Mr. Lawat saw the same question, allow me to ask you.
48:59Because yes, dissent can happen, differences can happen, but at least, you know, again, we only have press releases to
49:05go by.
49:06Is, the assumption is, or, it's not assumption, we can see that all three of them are together.
49:11So they all signed in, they could have raised differences, but decisions were taken unanimously, so how, what is wrong
49:17with that?
49:17Differences happen in any organisation?
49:20Of course, and they should happen in every organisation.
49:23The point which Mr. Lawat is making is that they have to give all the facts and details.
49:31For example, let's say if one of the election commissioners wrote about the form 6 changes being illegal or unauthorised.
49:42I think people are entitled to know that when these letters were received, what did the ECI do with these
49:50letters?
49:50Were they examined on the file?
49:52Was the file sent back to the commissioner concerned?
49:56Was it circulated among all the commissioners?
49:59Or was this matter discussed in the meeting of the commission?
50:02When did that meeting take place?
50:05Who attended that meeting?
50:07Unless all these things are brought out in the open with facts, not just assertions.
50:13You have to give the facts.
50:15Only then people will be convinced that, yes, what is happening is this.
50:20Or the charge that both of the ECs wrote to the cabinet secretary?
50:26Because why should they be writing?
50:27You know, the BJP here, because they are defending the EC, comes out and says,
50:32why should they be writing to the cabinet secretary the report to the president?
50:35They didn't write to the cabinet secretary.
50:35Well, first of all, I think the EC is quite competent to defend itself.
50:39Nobody needs to defend the election commission.
50:42But the point about the letter to the cabinet secretary is this.
50:46That in this release, the press release, the point made is that this was a communication
50:52sent with regard to an officer on deputation.
50:56And it had to do with the administrative responsibility of the cabinet secretary
51:00being in charge of the civil service, et cetera.
51:04Even if you buy this argument, the point is simply this.
51:08That I don't recall cases where if the election commission has to take up an administrative issue
51:16with the government, the CEC is not writing, one of the ECs is writing.
51:21Either the communication is sent by CEC or by somebody authorized by him
51:25to send an administrative communication.
51:28But a letter going to the cabinet secretary from one of the election commissioners,
51:32I think that is unparalleled.
51:34The other thing which it shows is that it means if, for example, one of the ECs was dissatisfied
51:43with the conduct of an officer who was on deputation, why did he not tell the CEC?
51:49Yeah, why did he?
51:50Why did he write to the cabinet secretary?
51:52Why did he write to the cabinet secretary?
51:52Because CEC is the chairman of the commission and he is responsible for the administrative work
51:58in the organization.
52:00So if it is not being told to the CEC, then the implication or the indication is that there is
52:07some communication issue.
52:11Communication issue, transparency issue, whatever one might call it, it needs to be.
52:16I will also, you know, final words sir and I will come to you.
52:18On the issue of a software glitch where ECiNet is concerned, the example of Goa is given where 97 voters
52:26and the local official on repeated attempts of 5 or 7 times writing to the centre could not re-establish
52:32their names in the voter rules.
52:34The explanation coming from many parts which are defending the EC and, you know, political parties and otherwise say
52:42that the local authorities have the option or the power to add names but not to re-add names who
52:48have been flagged earlier.
52:49So this is a normal, this was normal procedure.
52:53It's not normal actually.
52:55You don't...
52:55ECiNet they started in sometime in January or February and it is still undergoing changes, modifications, additions, alterations.
53:03because it was not fully commissioned.