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A Right Royal Podcast LIVE with Ingrid Seward
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00:00Hello VIP members and welcome to this special live recording of a Right Roll podcast at Quaglino's.
00:05We're joined by Ingrid Seward, author of the brilliant new book Catherine and Diana.
00:10She's here to share her fascinating insights into two of the world's most famous women.
00:15We really hope you enjoy the episode and thank you to all our VIP members who are in the audience.
00:20I see lots of familiar faces so it's great to have some of you back. I just want a special
00:26shout out though to Audrey who has come all the way from New York and you attended our New York
00:32live podcast so thank you so much for being here with us today. And I wonder if there's anyone
00:39that has come from outside of London. Oh wow, quite a few of you.
00:46From Finland? Who's come all the way from Finland? Oh, hands up Finland.
00:51Welcome. Thank you. Well it's lovely to have you all with us today.
00:57We've got such a brilliant episode for you all but before we bring on our amazing guest,
01:02Emily, I want to talk about the Royal Beat the last few days. Yeah, and nothing's been happening.
01:06Hectic. Nothing? What are you talking about? What have we missed?
01:10There's been a book. There's been a book. There's been quite a lot of drama. The controversy around
01:15the old Spencer memoir, Diana, my sister, has been fairly intense. We're going to get into that in
01:21just a moment with our guest. But for me what's been most fascinating is seeing Diana's sons out
01:28on manoeuvres this week. Very high profile outings for both of them. Wondering what's going through
01:33their minds while all this is playing out. And them just effectively having to very much keep calm and
01:39carry on. We were at World Child. We were at the World Child Awards with Prince Harry on Monday
01:45evening. I think my invite got lost in there. Did you have a nice time? We're lucky enough to
01:52have been the media partner for World Child for many years now and it is one of, and he told
01:56us
01:56that evening, it is one of his favourite events. Of the year. Of the year. He actually said to me,
02:02this coming here and meeting these families fills me up for the whole year. And you can't be at that
02:07event and not just feeling, you know, incredibly aware of your own fortune in life when you're
02:13meeting families who are going through such difficult circumstances. Well he told you that
02:17when you spoke to him. Yeah, and it was really interesting to see him back. Obviously he's only
02:22been back here for a few weeks now. His return in itself has been controversial. I'm sure lots of
02:28people have opinions on that. We can get into that later. But what I found interesting is that
02:35all of this drama has been playing out behind the scenes and again, you know, there was no
02:40discussion of that. The focus was on the engagement, on the families and on the children. But my big
02:45takeaway from it was how happy he was to be back in the UK. He was so happy. All night,
02:51a smile from
02:52ear to ear. He was happy to be there. He was happy to be reunited with you as well. Was
02:56he pleased to see you
02:59guys? He was very friendly. Did you get a hug? I might have got a hug. I've been, you know,
03:07on tour with
03:08Harry over the years and to many different places. And so, you know, I feel like I've had a good
03:13understanding of his work certainly over the years. But it struck me that I think he just enjoyed
03:20seeing some familiar faces, even if some of them were from the press, which was unexpected.
03:25And he talked a bit about the kids and them settling into the UK. He did, yeah. We asked
03:29him what was the most British thing he had done. No, this is controversial. With Archie
03:34Lillibut. And apparently he's been giving them crumpets with Marmite. Marmite does sort
03:40of divide opinion. Show of hands who likes Marmite? Oh, okay. More than I thought, if I'm
03:46honest. People sided with Prince Harry Fawns. So that was fascinating. Of course, he wasn't
03:52the only prince out on the town. Oh, no. Of course. Yes. Prince William and Catherine
03:58were at the premiere of Digger last night with their very good friend, Tom Cruise, and
04:02their very good friend, David Beckham. I know. Well, I was thinking about this earlier.
04:06He's king of the Cotswolds in many ways now, David Beckham. So it was an interesting moment
04:12that he's come out with the Waleses. He's got some new neighbours. Oh, yeah. Of course.
04:17Well, you know, he's got a knighthood, so he's got to be friendly with William. I want
04:24to talk about yesterday because Catherine was superb. Now, this was her first film premiere
04:29as the Princess of Wales. Yeah. It's been a while. What a look. She looks sensational.
04:35And for me, the outfit she chose really made quite the statement. It was regal purple, a
04:42beautiful gown by Jenny Packham. But then she also picked these beautiful pieces of jewellery,
04:48a very striking amethyst sautoir heart-shaped necklace that had belonged to the late Queen
04:53Mother, and then Diana's Collingwood pearl earrings. And what a way to sort of mark yourself
05:01out as very much a paid-up member of the firm.
05:05Now, earlier that day, though, William was out at the cinema, other than serving popcorn.
05:11He was ignoring a few questions. Now, they both have been asked questions, Harry and William,
05:17this week. They've been faced with questions from the press about their uncle. What are they
05:24thoughts? Have they read their book? And they even asked Harry at Well Child, actually, as
05:28he was arriving. They asked if he had been in touch with his family in the last few days.
05:32It's really difficult. It puts them in an incredibly difficult position. And we were
05:36talking about this upstairs before we came on, you know. Although Earl Spencer has sort
05:42of intimated that of the four members of the family he told about the book, his two sisters
05:47and his two nephews, one of them was okay with it. And we take that to be Harry. But Harry,
05:54of course, does want reconciliation with his father. So it's not going to be easy for him
05:58to come out. I think the absolute best thing that they can do is to say nothing. And as
06:03we say, just sort of keep calm and carry on.
06:06It's a huge talking point. And I think it's about time that we bring our expert on to talk
06:10a little more about it. But first of all, who came to our last live event with Ingrid?
06:15Because I missed it. I was on maternity leave. So I get a few people, a few people. What did
06:21I miss?
06:21Well, you missed the wonderful Ingrid Seward, who's going to join us on stage, if you will,
06:26Ingrid. She's one of our foremost royal authors. And she benefits from having had a close friendship
06:34with Diana, Princess of Wales.
06:37I just saw where you put your water, so I just put mine down there.
06:41That's fine. But not only did Ingrid know...
06:46Are you okay? Let's give you a second.
06:48It's not the easiest.
06:49I know. They're not thinking about us...
06:52Us little people.
06:53No, they're not thinking about us, little people. Ingrid is one of our foremost royal
06:58authors. She knew Princess Diana personally, and she's also written extensively about the
07:04current Princess of Wales. Ingrid, what a time to be publishing your book. I think before
07:10we get into this, we'd love to hear an extract from you, if you would. And you're very fortunate
07:15to be the first people ever hearing this. The book is not on sale until tomorrow.
07:21Right. Now, can everybody hear me? I've just got to put my glasses on.
07:27Right, here we go. This is really... This is the introduction to my book, so you'll understand
07:31a little bit of what it's about.
07:34Two women, born 20 years apart, who never met, yet found themselves bound by a title, a ring,
07:42and a man named William. One arrived in the world with the weight of dukedoms behind her.
07:49The other was a daughter of a woman from a gritty London suburb. One whose ancestor was an astounding
07:56military leader. The others, who forebears worked down the pits as coal miners. Different worlds,
08:03different inherences. Good, that's a hard one to say. And yet each stepped into the same role,
08:10carrying its history in their own unique way. Both fashion icons, both beauties in their different
08:17style, both, when they married, counted among the most famous women on the planet. They could not be
08:24further apart in background, temperament, character, or even looks, yet the world did and does adore them both.
08:34Being the Princess of Wales is not just about acting as a decorative accessory. The title and rank
08:41can be a force for good, employed by both Diana and Catherine to champion big issues, using their celebrity
08:49ability to shine a light on often overlooked but critical challenges, ranging from aids and landmines
08:56to mental health and supporting vulnerable children. Each used their status as a weapon against life's
09:04indignities. But if they met, would they have liked each other? Would Diana have approved of the way Catherine
09:11supported and nurtured her boy William, helping him turn from a royal refusenic in those early years into a
09:18credible future king? Or would she, renowned for possessing that occasional stab of jealousy,
09:25have found it hard to admire Catherine's effortless style, patience and true grit? And Catherine,
09:33if she'd spent time with her quicksilver mother-in-law, once the most sought-after woman in the world,
09:40would she have enjoyed her company, found things in common outside the royal family to chat about?
09:47Their most likely mutual ground will surely be the trials and tribulations of being Princess
09:53of Wales. The protocol, the crushing media interest, the desperate search for me time,
10:01the dealing with the men in grey suits at the palace, and no doubt the constant pressure to come up
10:07with
10:07alluring outfits to please the public and the press. Diana's character was both grand and vulnerable.
10:16Catherine's neither of those things, but more contained, even in the darkest hours of her cancer.
10:22They shared a love for the future king, Prince William, but beyond that, perhaps very little.
10:29When Diana and her family rubbed shoulders with royalty, but they ultimately came to despair
10:36of the institution. Catherine was brought up to love and respect the monarchy. She comes from a royalist
10:42family who sat around the television on Christmas Day and watched the Queen deliver her traditional
10:48speech. When the national anthem played, they all stood, because they wanted to. Despite her rocky
10:56start, Diana went on to make the role of Princess of Wales her own and do it brilliantly. So much
11:02so that
11:03even today, the title immediately conjures up one image, and that is of her. It's been a hard act to
11:10follow, but Catherine declared long ago that she wanted to make the role her own and only her own,
11:17which is exactly what she's done. It's one of the tragedies of Diana's story that she was adored by
11:29millions, yet emotionally denied by the few who mattered most. And that is where the contrast with
11:36Catherine is most striking. Her life is not perfect, but it is rooted in a shared understanding with
11:43William and her husband Diana's son. They faced the institution together. Diana faced it alone.
11:52So there you are.
11:57I hope that gives you a bit of an idea of what it's about. It was quite a hard book
12:01to write,
12:02this one, because it's not a straight biography. But I hope that you might buy it and enjoy it.
12:07Thank you so much, Ingrid. It's fascinating. I can heartily recommend.
12:12Now, do we go straight into it, Ingrid? Yes.
12:15I want to ask you, what do you make of the claims that Charles Spencer has made about the royal
12:20family
12:20in his new book? Well, I've been asked this a lot, and I've thought about it a lot. And I
12:26think that
12:28there's an element of truth in what he said, but I think it was totally, totally taken out of context.
12:36The two men were having a furious row, and I'm sure everyone, you're all interested in subject,
12:41know that both Charles's have a temper. And tempers are huge, and the emotion runs very high. And they
12:48were arguing about whether the boys should walk behind the coffin, Diana's coffin. And
12:57Charles Spencer said, it's not going to happen. And then Charles apparently lost it completely and
13:04banged on about the sense of duty and etc. And then he might have said something similar to this.
13:11He might have said, for goodness sake, they have to do this because people are going to forget about
13:15her soon enough. He was worried that Diana's image would not last. And he wanted the boys to be there
13:24because he thought when they grew up, they would regret that they hadn't done it.
13:28And that is my take on it. So I don't, obviously, I think it was a despicable thing for Spencer
13:34to do,
13:35to even put this in his book. Why did he need to do it? I tell you why he needed
13:40to do it. Because
13:41the more salacious a book you write, the more it sells for serial rights. And he needed to make the
13:48money. If only he'd said, look, I did it because I wanted to make the money. But no one ever
13:52says that.
13:52But that, I think, is the root of it. He wanted to make a lot of money out of the
13:58serialisation.
13:59And these days, you cannot serialise a book in a newspaper unless it's got something salacious
14:04to say. And I just think it was a very cruel and unnecessary thing to say. And he shouldn't have
14:10done it.
14:11I think that says a lot on the reaction of the public.
14:16Yeah, it's something we'll get onto, I'm sure, in the Q&A as well.
14:20What do you think the publication of this book means for Diana's boys?
14:25Well, I should think, I think they just think there's too much. I mean, I'm afraid I'm,
14:31you know, kind of in that too much bunch, I would imagine. I have to be honest. I've written a
14:37lot
14:38of books about Diana. But I would think that they're also absolutely horrified that their uncle
14:44should say something like that about their father. You know, he's their father. Okay for
14:50them to say something rude about their father. And if anyone said anything rude about somebody you
14:56really love, you might have shouted something rude at them. But you don't want anyone else
14:59shouting something rude at them. And I think they would be absolutely horrified and furious.
15:04And as I would think that that Charles's two sisters would be as well. And as for Diana,
15:11I mean, that's the last thing in the world she would ever want is for anyone to put her husband
15:17down. She could, but no one else can. Well, that's fascinating. I want to pick you up on that
15:24in just a moment. But if you take us back to the beginning, you've written about both Catherine
15:30and Diana from their early childhoods on. Who do you think Diana was before she crossed paths
15:38with Prince Charles? Well, Diana was so young. She was only 19. And back in the day, 19 was young.
15:4619 year olds now are very sophisticated, but they weren't then. And she'd had a sort of country life.
15:52She'd come to London. She was rooming with her, some flatmates. It was her flat. But she was rooming
15:59with some lovely girls. And they all giggled and had fun. And, you know, Diana said, oh, I don't really
16:04like London. I want to be in the country. I don't like London. It's dirty. I don't know why she
16:10thought
16:10that. But she did go out, you know, with a couple of quite, you know, attractive young men. And she
16:15went to
16:16the theatre. But I think that, you know, I've actually forgotten what you asked me. Now I'm banging on so
16:23much.
16:23I suppose my question is, you know, what was her background? What brought her into
16:30his field? We know that there were very, you know, historic connections between both families,
16:35weren't there? Well, she said to me, I've known Prince Charles since I was in nappies,
16:39because the Spencers lived on the Soundringham Estate in a park house. And Diana used to go to tea
16:47parties at what they called the Big House, which was Soundringham House. And she used to moan, I don't want
16:52to go and watch Chitty Chitty Bang Bang again and again with Andrew and Edward. But she did,
17:00because, you know, her father said she had to go. And so she knew the Queen, you know, probably not
17:07so
17:07much as a monarch, but somebody who was just very nice to her and would play hide and seek with
17:11them.
17:12I mean, the Queen did play hide and seek with the kids. So she knew them and she felt easy
17:17around them.
17:18And also, I mean, so did Charles Spencer. He felt easy around them. The Queen was his godmother.
17:25But she was, as you say, she was a young 19 year old. She was looking after children. She was
17:31quite shy,
17:32wasn't she? She was quite a modest personality at that point.
17:36No, I think Diana was a huge personality.
17:38She was a huge personality. And children adored her. And she had this, when she was at school,
17:45one of the teachers said to her, Diana, if you kneel down to people's level,
17:51you will connect directly, just look at them in the eyes. So if it's children, or even old people,
17:58or even disabled people, if you can look them in the eye, you can get a better rapport with them.
18:05And that's exactly what she did. And she did that throughout her entire life.
18:10So I think that she, you know, she had that look, the sort of lower eyelid look,
18:18which William used to have to, didn't he? But I don't think she was really shy. She was
18:22she was nervous more than shy. Now, in the book, you write about Diana and her mother Francis.
18:29What was their relationship like? Well, when, you know, to begin with, it was,
18:34it was obviously a mother daughter relationship, very good. But I think that Diana blamed her
18:40mother for leaving them. And I think probably children do slightly, because, you know, she was
18:45six or seven, when her mother left to go and live with Peter Shan Kidd, who Diana was very,
18:54very fond of. And so was Charles. But I think she did blame her mother. And she missed her mother
19:00terribly, as you know, as any little girl would at that age. And then she looked after her baby
19:06brother. But she she had, she had her elder sisters. And she was incredibly fond of Sarah,
19:13who was an absolute naughty, naughty girl, but great fun and had enormous personality. Diana
19:19absolutely adored her. So and she, you know, they had, you know, Park House was very grand,
19:26even though it wasn't a stately home. And they had a lot of staff, and they all looked after them.
19:30They were not neglected children. And I think Diana's mother said much, much later that Diana made a big
19:37thing about hearing the noise of the tires on the gravel, which is very evocative thing to say.
19:43But in fact, she said, Diana was perfectly happy. So I think these things change as we all change
19:50our minds as we get older. And I think Diana changed her mind about how she felt about life.
19:56Well, do you think that her relationship with her mother affected her personality as an adult?
20:01She was quite an insecure person.
20:04What? The mother?
20:05And well, the mother and Diana.
20:06Oh, I think I don't think either. Mrs. Shan Kidd was very, very straight in your face.
20:13I don't think she was insecure at all. I think Diana felt insecure with the fame she had,
20:20but I don't think she felt insecure in her own person. But of course, it was hello.
20:25What have we done? Oh, no.
20:28When I was, I was very fortunate to be probably the last journalist to ever see Diana, you know,
20:33in a journalistic capacity. And she told, she actually took me down. She said, I hate my mother.
20:39I'm never going to speak to her again. And I was so taken aback. And she said, she's always
20:45ringing me and I just put the phone down. And that, that I think is very difficult. Anyhow,
20:49she took me down to her office. I've just remembered this and said, and she picked up, um, uh, hello.
20:58Hello. And she turned it over and said, that's what I think of that. What a ringing endorsement.
21:06Not meaning your magazine, but meaning the fact that Mrs. Shan Kidd had given an interview to hello,
21:11in which she had said, I think it's a good thing that Diana lost her HRH. She didn't need it.
21:17And she
21:17said, how dare my mother speak for me? How dare she give an interview? And I just remember her
21:23picking up the magazine and banging it down. Well, I don't know. I don't know.
21:27That's a great anecdote. We'll take it. It's a great anecdote. And also before our time,
21:31let's just make that clear. Um, but I think that's, that is really quite telling, isn't it? Of
21:37the sort of fractious nature of their relationship. Yeah, absolutely. But with, with Diana as well,
21:44what was the story about her going through her housemate's drawers? I want to hear about that.
21:49Her housemate's drawers. Yes. No, you mean when she dressed up as a police? Oh, no, sorry. Yes. No,
21:56sorry. There was a moment where she went on a stag do, which was when she was dressed up as
22:01a police
22:03woman. I think, oh, yes, sorry. Oh, that was a wonderful story. Um, this was Fergie's, this was
22:10Andrew Stagnite. In fact, you can bear to hear that name. Literally in the good old times, eh?
22:14Andrew Stagnite. And Diana teamed up with Pamela Stevenson. Do you remember her married to Billy
22:22Connolly? Um, Elton John's wife, one and only wife, Rowena. Um, Renata. Renata, she was called. Um,
22:32Jules Dodd-Noble, who is a great friend of Fergie's and a couple of others. And they decided that they
22:38would go and sort of spring on Andrew in his, uh, where he was having his stag night. But it
22:44was a
22:44gated house and it was locked. So they, they went up there giggling like mad, as you can imagine,
22:50a whole lot of them. Um, and then they, and it was locked, so they couldn't do anything. So they
22:54went
22:55back to Buckingham Palace. And Pamela Stevenson said, I just happened to have six police woman's
23:02uniforms in the back of my car. So she'd obviously been planning this. So they put on these police
23:08woman's uniforms and Diana put on a pair of glasses as well. And they went, they thought that what is
23:16going to happen is Andrew's going to go on to a nightclub. And in, in those days, Annabelle's
23:21of Barclay Square, not the one that's there now, but the original one, which was really wonderful,
23:25was the hot spot. So they decided to go to Annabelle's. So they got in, I don't know the
23:32detail of how they got in, giggling like mad. And it just happened to be the night the Daily Mail
23:38was having a sort of party for their sort of head honchos. You know, they were sort of Nigel Dempster,
23:45Brian Vine, all the sort of big journalists. Rothermere was there and no one recognised them. And they
23:52thought, what on earth are police women doing? And yeah, everyone got very nervous. And then
23:58Brian Vine, who I don't know if you ever remember him, but he was a wonderful journalist. And he went
24:04up to Diana, and she had a pair of glasses on like this. And he took her glasses off. And
24:09he still
24:09didn't recognise her. And they were laughing. And they suddenly thought we'd better get out of here
24:15before we get into trouble. And they just laughed and laughed. And they ran across Barclay Square in
24:22their policemen's uniforms, and went back to Buckingham Palace, where they tried to stop
24:27the unmentionable driving in. So they just and they were all hysterical. I mean, that is a fun
24:34group of ladies. Anyhow, the next morning, somebody I'm responsible for this, I'm afraid,
24:41because somebody rang me up. And they said, you will not believe it. But Diana was in Annabelle's last
24:46night dressed as a policewoman. And I said, don't be silly. So I immediately rang James Whittaker,
24:53who was a sort of doyen of royal reporting in those days. And I think I can't even I think
24:59he
24:59worked on the mirror. He was at the mirror, he said, wait a minute, I'm going into a stable, he
25:04said,
25:04to take this call. And so he got the story. And and by this time, it was all it was
25:11bursting
25:11away. But I think the mirror had the first exclusive. And I probably got 100 quid or something
25:16for being disloyal. There's also some mention about Diana making prank calls, which weren't
25:23really very, but they were more serious than funny. Tell us about those. They're not good,
25:29those prank calls. Diana had she was obsessive, as I'm sure you all know. And she started making
25:35practice. She was rather keen on these ringing people in the middle of the night. Did you do that
25:40as a school girl? I mean, we all did that. And then slamming the phone down. She certainly did
25:45it to Camilla. But she she also did it to one of her lovers at the time, Oliver Hall. And
25:53of course,
25:53I think his wife knew exactly who it was. And she didn't just do it once. She did it on
25:58and on and on.
25:59So this is like a mom. She was very like a mom. Her mom was obsessive, too. And so when
26:04Diana put the
26:05phone down on mom, mom would ring back. So anyhow, and this unfortunate incident got into the press,
26:12certainly not by me, I can assure you. And it became headline news. And then they traced these calls.
26:20I think they traced them to a phone box near Kensington Palace. And Diana denied, denied, denied.
26:27But in the end, I think people realised it was her.
26:30Wow. So it sometimes went beyond a prank, really. It went beyond a prank.
26:35Across the line. Yes, it did. They're very unpleasant, those sort of calls. I mean,
26:39obviously, it doesn't really happen anymore, because everyone's got mobile phones. But
26:44it certainly in the day was a thing that young people and not so young people like to do.
26:51I wanted to pick up on a couple of themes in your book, one which is similar to the other
26:58book that's
26:58out at the moment and one which is very different. Now, first of all, you talk about the fact that
27:04the late queen saw Diana as a threat and feared what she might do. Tell us what you mean by
27:11that.
27:12But then there's also the flip side that you do say that the queen did try to support her.
27:16The queen was incredibly supportive to Diana in the beginning. And she said to her staff,
27:21treat her like a nerdy racehorse. So she equated everything to horses, as we know.
27:27But as so, but I don't know, you're all probably too young to remember, but it was such that was
27:33the War of the Whaleses was on the front of newspapers every day. And it was Charles and Diana,
27:38Charles and Diana. And what are they up to now? And the queen really didn't like this because she
27:44felt it was distracting from the job of the monarchy, you know, which is, you know, to represent
27:51the country, not to be part of a soap opera. And Diana used to wait in the pages vestibule,
28:00which is next to the queen's meeting room where she sees prime ministers and things in her sitting
28:05room. And the minute that whoever it was in there went out, Diana would run in and start crying and
28:13saying, everybody hates me. Everybody hates me. And I hate my mother. And I hate my brother. And I
28:18hate my sisters. And I hate Charles. And he's unfaithful. And the queen, remember, you know,
28:25she was born in 1926. And she'd had a very formal upbringing. She'd never done moral confrontation,
28:33nor her mother. If there was any moral problem, her mother would just take to her bed. The queen
28:39mother just went to bed and said she had flu. And the queen couldn't do that.
28:43But she hated having to deal with this. Because if you've never had to deal with somebody crying
28:49and sort of begging you, you don't know what to do. You just, oh, my goodness, keep her away from
28:55me.
28:56And she felt that this shenanigans between Diana and Charles was actually really damaging to the
29:02monarchy. I think it was the beginning of, you know, the soap opera, which we still have.
29:07I was going to say, she didn't like it, but it's still going on. And it's 2026.
29:11Well, yeah. And the other thing that I wanted to mention again in your book, and it tells a
29:17slightly different version of events to the other one that's around, and that is the conversation
29:22that you had with Diana about Prince Charles. And it's not what I was expecting.
29:27No, well, I was, as I said, I was very lucky to see Diana shortly before she died. Not that
29:32obviously anyone
29:33knew that. But she was going out with Dodie. And I'd been to the Ritz with her, with Rain.
29:42So I knew the whole sort of set up. And I knew Dodie. And we talked about it.
29:47And she said, but she actually told me that she really loved Charles. He was the one she would
29:54always love. He was the one that got away. And she said, it's very important to me, Ingrid,
29:59that my boys know that their father loved me. It's really, really important. And she said,
30:08and of course, the world won't know, because they won't see the letters that we wrote to each other.
30:14So they're in the Royal Archive. But of course, you have to wait 50 years. But Charles wrote her the
30:19most beautiful, beautiful love letters, and which he praised her and talked about her in the most
30:26loving way saying, I think about your beautiful long brown legs. I mean, that's very charming,
30:32isn't it? Quite sexy, I suppose. But he did love her. He may not have loved her in the very
30:39beginning.
30:40And he may not have loved her by the end. But he always loved her. And he felt so bad
30:46that he
30:46couldn't make the marriage work. He was plagued by guilt, because he knew he was the old, you know,
30:52he was the one that should have made it work. But her intense jealousy, and, you know, many,
30:58many other things, and they were just not suited at the time. But Diana also said to me, she thought,
31:03if they'd met when they were older, that they probably would have made it work and conquered the
31:08world. That's what she loved to say. But I noticed that Harry and Meghan said the same thing.
31:14I want to turn to the other subject of your book, Catherine, of course. How was her childhood
31:20different to Diana's? It was very different, wasn't it?
31:23Her childhood was very different to Diana's. And although, I mean, Catherine was born in the
31:28Royal Barks Hospital in Reading. And I actually was there yesterday. And I thought, my gosh,
31:34I'd forgotten how awful it was. Sorry, NHS. But I literally, you know, hospital and the floors are
31:41sort of bright blue lino. And they've been like that for 50 years. I went there to have my appendix
31:47out sort of age 13. Not yesterday. No, not yesterday. Age 13. So I do know it was they had
31:53blue lino then.
31:54And I just thought, this is so different. And Diana was born in Park House in the bedroom that her
32:02mother was born in, with sort of beautiful long windows. You know, those sort of lovely country
32:06houses with floor to ceiling windows. And in the background, there was a very smart cricket match.
32:12And this is what her mum says. She was born the moment they scored a century. And so there was
32:18this
32:18polite clapping. And that was Diana's entry into the world. So for a start, they were just so
32:25different. But the Middletons had something that Diana didn't have. And they had this incredibly
32:32close knit family and a very ambitious mother. Now, I reckon, Em, if we, you and I'd had a mum
32:39like Mrs. Middleton. I'd be queen by now. You could be queen. You certainly might be a princess.
32:46I think, I mean, what strikes me as incredible about Carol is her drive and her determination and
32:52the sort of life that she created for her family. It was very different to her own, wasn't it?
32:57There's nothing that Catherine can't do apart from riding. She climbs mountains. She abseils. She
33:03sails. She rows. I mean, she is amazing. And that's all mum and dad. All their children are just
33:11brought up to be able to do everything. She cooks. She sews. And she's beautiful. It's really
33:17unfair. It is a bit me. It's a bit me. Her relationship with her mother really is day
33:23and night with Diana's relationship with her mother. It is day and night, yes. I mean, I think
33:28at the end, Diana, well, Diana didn't speak to her mother. I won't go on about hello, but
33:32Diana didn't speak to her mother. But it wasn't just that. It was, it was a lot of other things.
33:37And she said to me, well, mummies are drunk, which isn't, you know, I think she, obviously,
33:43everyone probably knows that's interested that poor Mrs. Shan kid did turn to the bottle.
33:48And so, you know, she wasn't always sort of totally on the ball.
33:53Now, Catherine faced the same things that Diana did with paparazzi. And we all know that. But
34:00I want to go into her relationship with William and how she helps him make the decisions,
34:07how good she is to have as a companion to him, the future king.
34:11Well, I think what the great thing was that she and William were very good friends before they
34:16became lovers. And, you know, she was sort of, in a way, his sounding board. And during the first,
34:23I think it was like the first sort of vacation from uni, he drove to take Catherine out. He drove
34:31to her house in Bucklebury. And he took her to the local pub. And they had a long, long chat.
34:36So,
34:37oh, actually, this might have been, anyhow, that's what happened. I can't remember the exact timing.
34:42But they were very good friends. And she listened to him. And she advised him. And she said, look,
34:46if you're not happy doing history of art, you know, do something else. Do geography or something,
34:53which is what he did, I think. And she was such a good friend. She also, at the time,
34:57had a very handsome boyfriend. So it was very gradual. And I think that was what's really stuck
35:04them together. And I think she just helped him hugely. And in turn, much later, you know,
35:11he was able to help her. Emily, you've met Catherine, you've shadowed her on countless
35:17engagements. What is the real Catherine like? Who is she really as a person?
35:21Well, I think that's a fascinating question, because she is a very reserved person. I don't
35:26think she's someone who would ever have set out to be a public figure. I don't think it's something
35:31that comes naturally to her, although she's playing a bit of a blinder these days. And she is somebody
35:37who is very, very family oriented, you know, she's incredibly close to her parents and her siblings.
35:44And she is continuing that relationship with her own family. And she's very much of the belief that
35:51everything else will fall into place as long as you get that right. And I think that's very
35:55interesting in the context of the history of our royal family, in that a lot of the problems that have
36:00come to a head have been born from family issues, right? You know, it is very much the stuff going
36:06on
36:06behind the scenes that has has put the wider institution at risk. Would you agree with that,
36:12Ingrid? I would. And I think that actually Catherine took lessons from Diana. I'm sure
36:16and obviously William was the main teacher. But he she she saw that Diana gave so much of herself to
36:24people. And that was her way of sort of dealing with people she didn't know. She she would say to
36:29them, Oh, what did you think of that show on television last night? And what did you think of that?
36:33And she would engage with them. And then she'd tell them wonderful little anecdotes about William.
36:38That's why we know so much about William. William used to break everything. And he put a pair of
36:43shoes down the loo. Now, I don't know how he managed to do that as a little boy. But he
36:47found this
36:47his father's probably very expensive shoes. And he put them down the loo. And he broke things. And she would
36:55delight and then she would delight in telling people about William and later Harry. And so we knew so much
37:02about Diana and her life. And I think that exposed her too much. And it wouldn't work now with with
37:10the
37:11internet and everything else. I mean, Diana would have a, you know, telling everyone about her life would
37:16be, can you imagine the kind of criticism you would get? So she was in another era. And certainly, and
37:23I think
37:23Catherine learned from that, just give enough, but don't give too much because you're too vulnerable
37:29that way. And people are going to strip you bare if you do that. But Diana found this was her
37:36way of
37:36engaging with people she didn't know. And it worked for her. And it worked at the time.
37:41I think what Catherine brings as well is the kind of sort of steadiness. Do you think I think basically
37:49she's able to sort of see and has learned, I think, from from the past, and is obviously very
37:55influenced by William's own experience of that being that child and, you know, facing the banks,
38:01the photographers and having all of those stories told about him. And that's how they measure the way
38:06that they do it with their own children. But I want to cast forward now, because eventually,
38:12she will become our queen. What do you think she is going to bring to the role from her very
38:18unique
38:18background in this family? I think it'll be more inclusive. This is what everyone says, the monarchy
38:25has to be more inclusive. It can't be something that is just, you know, so far away, and strange,
38:34in a way. They have to be more inclusive. They have to be like William and Catherine are now. They
38:39get
38:39down, and they talk to people, and they ask them about their problems. They deflect from themselves
38:44and ask people, which is a very good way of people not asking you too many questions. They talk to
38:51them,
38:51they want to know about your life, and they're genuinely interested in people. And I think
38:55that sort of making it inclusive, do you see what I'm, am I being clear? Yeah, I completely agree.
39:00Absolutely. Do you think that Catherine will be the linchpin that keeps the royal family together
39:06going forwards? I certainly do, because I think she keeps William together. And I think, you know,
39:12her illness, her cancer absolutely rocked him. Well, we know it does, because he said it did. And
39:19the thought of losing her was just unbearable. I mean, he lost his mother. He didn't want to lose a,
39:23you know, anyone, you know, another mother, the mother to his children. And he would have done
39:27anything, anything. And I think that that has made their togetherness a real cement. And I think she
39:37will just be wonderful. If you can get through that, I think, you know, her strength is so admirable.
39:44Yeah, I want to talk about, oh, oh, yeah, I think it deserves a round of applause.
39:50Going back to Carol, which we've spoken about. I love the role that she plays, you know,
39:56in the Wales family, she is their only living grandmother. And I've loved this year, one of my
40:01favourite royal photos is after the Three Peaks. They took a family photo, and Carol was there,
40:06and so was Michael. You know, she is very integral to the Wales family. What do you think
40:12her role will be want her daughter as Queen? Oh, that's very difficult. I think she will be in
40:19the background, but she will be in the foreground, if you see what I mean. I think she's a very
40:24determined and clever lady. I really have huge admiration for her. I think we all do. And I think
40:31she's pushy, but she probably needed to be. The right amount. She's pushy. But I think she will keep
40:37in the background and come forward when wanted, rather than pushing herself forward. And that's
40:44really what she's done since Catherine married William, isn't it? She's been in the background
40:49and come forward. For instance, when Catherine was ill and they, you know, she took over. She took over
40:57helping with the children and the school and the cooking and, you know, making food for William and
41:03looking after him too. Yeah. And I think she's, she's a very strong and determined person. Yeah.
41:09I mean, Catherine has said several times in some of the engagements, how difficult this has been for
41:13the family as well. Yeah. You know, her diagnosis. So I can assume that when she's also talking about
41:18her parents. I think so very much. Because it must be so hard for, you know, parents to see their
41:23child
41:23go through what she did, obviously. Now, I want to talk about the two women together, because they
41:29both have held this role as Princess of Wales, but from very different backgrounds, different
41:35personalities. For Catherine, and you've touched on this already, what kind of pressure do you think
41:41that brought for her, knowing that she would eventually inherit that title, which of course was
41:47kind of held in abeyance, wasn't it, for Camilla? That was something that just wasn't entertained.
41:51She was Princess of Wales, but it doesn't, it's, I don't know what the correct word is. But she,
41:56it was, I suppose, held in abeyance, or she just didn't take the title, quite rightly. So it would
42:01not have worked at all. No. I think that, what was the question again? Do you think that for Catherine,
42:08that brought a specific kind of pressure? Because it's a one thing to marry the future king, but it's
42:13quite another thing to then inherit the title that his mother so completely owned, and is still so
42:20closely associated with? I think Catherine lives very much in the present, because she's had to.
42:27And I think that's, again, how she, you know, got through her illness. And I don't think she would
42:33give it a lot of thought, because even if you think about it, what can you do? There's nothing you
42:37can
42:38do. You don't know what's going to happen. Maybe we won't even have a monarchy. We don't know. And I
42:44think that she just wants to be what she is now, the Princess of Wales. And I don't know how
42:52much
42:52she thought about it before. But I guess she, you know, we all thought it would never happen. We
42:56never thought the Queen would die. We were, you know, we just, you know, I think they live very
43:02much in the present. But I don't think she would have worried too much, because she had William at her
43:08side. Always William is there. She wasn't on her own, like Diana was on her own. When I say Diana
43:15was on her own, obviously, Charles was there. But mentally, Diana was on her own.
43:19Yeah, very different experience, wasn't it?
43:21Do you think Diana and Catherine would have gotten along? I mean, do they have,
43:24besides the obvious, of course, do you think they had anything in common?
43:28I think they had, they both love fashion. I think, I do, when I very first met Catherine,
43:33it was a polo match or something. And she said, oh, and she was, she was, you know,
43:39the polo matches, well, I don't know if you do. But anyhow, they have all these beautiful clothes
43:43for sale in, you know, in sort of the side shows and things. And she was really digging into those.
43:49I mean, and she and Diana both loved clothes, and they both look completely stunning in them.
43:54But I think probably their main link would have been children. Both absolutely have a magic with
44:01children. And I think that's, they would have talked about that. I mean, I just feel children,
44:07clothes, Charles, maybe, I don't know. Families, yes, I think they would have had a lot to talk about.
44:15One last question. What impact do you think Diana had in the monarchy? And what impact do you think
44:21Catherine will have in the future?
44:25I think that Diana's initial impact on the monarchy at the time of her death was quite damaging.
44:33And that's what the Queen was really worried about. Because she felt that Diana had this enormous
44:41media power. I mean, it was huge. She only had to just lift her hand and it was the front
44:46page,
44:47still, even to the moment that she died. I mean, the front pages of the newspapers were pictures of Diana
44:52jumping off boats and diving off boats. It wasn't about anything that was going on with the monarchy.
44:58And I think it was Charles's, oh, Camilla's 50th birthday. And Charles had given her this huge
45:04party at Highgrove. So Diana did a beautiful sort of, one of the sort of most fantastic dive when you
45:12touch your feet with your hands. I don't know what you could swallow, is it? A swallow dive off
45:18Mohammed Fayyad's yacht into the sea. And of course, that was the front page. Nobody mentioned
45:24Camilla's birthday or Charles's party till afterwards. So she had the power of knocking
45:29everything else sideways. And that worried the Queen intensely. And that's why she was became what I
45:36call frightened of Diana. She was frightened of that power. And quite rightly so, I think. So I think
45:42initially, Diana was quite damaging. I mean, not initially, at the end, she was quite damaging
45:49for the monarchy. Because also, it was, you know, the world was in a sort of how, you know,
45:54where they hated, you know, Charles was practically booed. And he had lots of letters literally
46:01threatening his life before the funeral. So when he walked behind Diana's coffin, he actually thought,
46:10someone could take a pot shot at me. And that would be it. But Charles is a fatalist. He believes,
46:15you know, when the bullet comes, you just, you know, that's it. But he rarely thought he might get
46:20killed. And he could hear people in the crowd saying, oh, look at him. He's a murderer. He killed
46:26his wife. You know, I mean, terrible things people were saying. And you can hear a lot. You know,
46:32people don't think you can hear, but it carries. And of course, it was such a still day. So damaging.
46:37And I suppose, in a funny way, she's still sort of damaging the monarchy slightly.
46:43But she had a positive impact as well, didn't she? The way she raised her sons,
46:47the way she changed sort of the face of royal engagements.
46:50Her legacy is her sons, and the way she changed the face of royal engagements,
46:56which Catherine has completely taken up the mantle. That's what joins them. And I don't know what
47:01would have happened if we hadn't, if Catherine hadn't come along, and William had married someone
47:05quite different. But they are linked very strongly by that, which is why I wanted to write. And also,
47:12the ring. The ring, the ring. Yes, we haven't even got into the ring.
47:15No, we haven't got time to get into the ring. The ring from a catalogue. Isn't that wonderful?
47:21Diana's engagement ring was from the Garrard catalogue. And it was taken to Windsor Castle. I'll be very quick.
47:27It was taken to Windsor Castle by Garrard and the Crown Jeweler. And they sort of undid this thing of
47:34rings. And Diana said, ooh, that's the biggest. I'll have that one. And she did.
47:41She's like me. I was going to say, my kind of woman.
47:45Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed the episode as much as we enjoyed recording it.