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00:00The doors to the den are open for business a place where fortunes are made and
00:07futures are forged
00:10But this time the game has changed a fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up and
00:17steal the deals
00:21Tonight I'm tiny temper. I'm a multi-platinum selling music eyes
00:26Welcome back feels good to be here, man
00:29I'm best known as a creative, but I'm also a passionate entrepreneur and investor
00:33Yeah, that brand game is really hard
00:35It's kind of a tricky space to put yourself in I tend to look for driving entrepreneurs
00:39So if you're willing to get up and do it yourself that will usually get my attention
00:51So this is it
00:53Okay, let's go
00:55I'm David Hodgson, and this is Will Willis and we're the founders of Zeno
01:03Sparkling wine. Yeah, huge in the UK now. Do you like wine? I do very much. I know you do
01:11I love you
01:13I like cheese
01:14Maybe they're pitching that
01:17Investment for us would really help us to scale
01:22Here we go
01:23Here we go
01:24We're nervous, but excited
01:25Pretty nervous
01:25Pretty nervous
01:26Excited, but confident in our product
01:39Hello dragons. It's great to be here. I'm David and I'm Will and we're the founders of Zeno alcohol liberated
01:48wines
01:48We're seeking a hundred and twenty thousand pounds for five percent equity share in a brand that's at the heart
01:56of a revolution
01:57The no low drinks category is on fire
02:00The UK alcohol free wine market is valued at one hundred and forty seven million pounds
02:07And it's forecast to grow eight point four percent year on year
02:12We're two wine trade veterans who've both spent more than three decades in the industry
02:18And what we wanted to do was create alcohol liberated wines for every occasion without compromise
02:27Since launching Zeno at the end of 2022 we've won numerous international awards and our first full year turnover was
02:35six hundred thousand pounds
02:38We're already available in independent retail and restaurants as well as waitrose and the fuller's pub group
02:46Dragons you can be part of the celebration missing out only on really nothing except perhaps the hangover
02:55So
02:56Invest in us and let's swap your vino for a Zeno
03:02Thank you very much. Um, should we taste some wine great
03:08A range of de-alcoholized wines to take the pain out of any overindulgence
03:14Is the proposition from will will willis and david hodgson
03:19we could start with the sparkling white it's really reminiscent of green apples and lemon citrus with a perfect bubble
03:28They're seeking
03:30120 000 pounds the second wine is our sparkling rose
03:35for a five percent share in their business
03:38And then are still white quite serving your blank in its um attack and the still rosé is mouth-watering
03:46beautiful with food
03:47cheers mate
03:48cheers cheers
03:49cheers
03:50and for the last wine a temperanillo and cabernet sauvignon
03:55the red is excellent thank you
03:58It may have hit the spot for touca sulliman but will wine connoisseur peter jones be quite so easily convinced
04:12Um interesting
04:16It's not really wine though. Oh here we go
04:19It is this is an alcoholic wine and we've removed the alcohol so it's still wine just without the alcohol
04:27Like a coffee that's decaffeinated is still a coffee
04:30Yeah, it's still coffee. It's not really though
04:35However
04:37I think it's amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Absolutely amazing as a wine drinker
04:42I love my wine. I am surprised how good it is genuinely especially the red
04:48Thank you so much the smell the scent. I think you've you've knocked that out of the park. That's fantastic.
04:53So thank you really do think that's good
04:56Um, you said in 2022 you did 600k turnover
05:00Uh, whether that was the end of 2024 so our first full year first full year
05:06Yeah, what's the next 12 months looking like?
05:09So we're anticipating by the end of our financial year. We're hoping to have turned over 750 000 pounds
05:17Okay
05:19Why why just a little bit more why not?
05:22double
05:23That's why we're here
05:25We'd love to double it and I think we can do more with your backing
05:29Okay, and what's the variance in pricing?
05:32So 10 pounds for the still wines and 12 pounds for the sparkling wine
05:37And how does that compare to your competition?
05:40So the market leader
05:43Is a prosecco look-alike at three pounds 50 a bottle?
05:47And they are um, I think their current turnover is is probably close to 20 million. I'd need to double
05:53check the statistics
05:55We feel for ourselves and our brand that we can do um five to 10 million pound turnover in the
06:02next three to five years
06:06David and will um, yes, I really like the products. I think especially the red wine. It tastes great
06:11I'm a big fan of tamper nido as well
06:13Thank you time
06:15So you're saying that the inception around the brand was just not wanting to feel hungover after a while was
06:21that the main main reason?
06:23More than that it was
06:26Not being able to find anything that was satisfying
06:29If you're in a restaurant that may happen to have
06:31Alcohol-free wine, it was sort of like how disappointed am I going to be?
06:36Is it going to be acceptable because they're so sweet if they're sweet, they're not great for food pairing
06:41And that's I think that's the point is that is
06:44everyone approached it with
06:45Um, and dare I say it in our early um founding um trials we were being offered wine for free
06:52This was wine that wasn't good enough to be alcoholic wine
06:54And the perception was well there you are for your project and you can have it for free or 20
06:59cents on the liter
07:00And we were tasting and thinking well if it's not good enough for alcoholic wine
07:04Why would the industry seem it being as good enough for for um non-alcoholic and and sugar can be
07:10used as the sweetener?
07:12Now if you're a fan of Tempranillo you'll be drinking wines at maybe one two
07:17Four grams per liter residual sugar and now you're being asked to to have a red wine with 45 60
07:24grams of residual sugar
07:25It's so far away from what you would normally drink
07:29But the market was saying oh, but it's only going to cost you four pounds
07:32So but that's not our research
07:35Um showed us that the people really wanting to trade into this are the traditional wine drinkers like
07:42Ourselves like yourselves like yourselves perhaps are looking for that night off, but you still want to have something delicious
07:48How did you get the sugar content so low?
07:50aha
07:52Um, we've worked tirelessly at that there's a little bit about um the amount of alcohol that we bring back
07:57in
07:58So we we we dealkalize to zero we then reintroduce alcohol
08:03So the alcohol levels for all of these wines is slightly different
08:06Depending on what it is. We're trying to get back
08:08Because we want the natural aromas the classic grape aromas we want when you smelt it all
08:14And tiny you said I like Tempranillo that smells like Tempranillo
08:17That's the key for us is first and foremost
08:20Is appealing to the people who are enjoying glasses of wine already?
08:25Where is this selling at the moment?
08:27So in waitrose wages are our principal national retail account um at the moment and how has it gone in
08:34waitrose really?
08:35Well, we're almost on the cusp of the top 10
08:38Non-alcoholic wine brands in the uk within just one year of trading
08:43Why why is it that you've come into the market and yet you're still only in the top 10?
08:49Because we've focused on really getting our product right and tasting great
08:54But you're you were you're in waitrose waitrose have their wine club. They're they're very good at targeting with wine
09:00Why has it not cut through really quickly to get to that number one position?
09:06It's we we we want to be number one in the premium category at the moment a lot of the
09:12market is really um split on
09:15four five and six pounds
09:17With the best wine that they can provide at that price point and for the premium market and peter
09:24Which is where we know the value is the opportunity is because the base wine that we're making is the
09:30very best that we can do
09:31So get that your product is still 12 pounds and under isn't it?
09:34So you are you're not far away from that gap
09:37As a considered purchase paying a few more pounds
09:40on a bottle of wine
09:42Yeah, and that's what we're but that's what that's why we what's the feedback that you've had from the from
09:47the team there?
09:48Of why you why it's not?
09:50No, I think the feedback was very positive
09:53When we came into waitrose we pushed the rrp up
09:58For alcohol-free wine, so it was um
10:01They're up to sell more to sell less sorry
10:04What was your tactic we're driving we're driving people into um our our price point area?
10:10Why would you not drive them in by making it cheaper?
10:13To build the awareness and then put your pricing back up
10:15In other words give them a gift and incentives keeping it at 10 pounds, but having perhaps maybe a two
10:22-for-one offer
10:23We fair fair point
10:26So I I hardly drink at all
10:30um peter was a lovely bottle of wine when we go out for dinner and I like to taste wine
10:36But I just I couldn't finish a whole glass a complete waste of time on me
10:40So I think would I drink this because I should be the perfect person because I actually like to taste
10:45wine
10:45And um, but I I just don't want I just don't want to drink a whole glass
10:50But this makes me feel unsatisfied
10:54In what way?
11:00Well, it's not wine and actually it doesn't give me that
11:04That lovely feeling of all that take that depth of taste
11:08And actually there's a now plethora of alternatives. So for instance kombucha
11:15It looks like that it's as sparking as that to be honest
11:18You could have put that in that glass and told me it was a alcohol-free wine and I i'd
11:22have believed you
11:24I think that what is actually going to happen
11:26Is that this category will definitely grow
11:29But I think there's going to become a growing confidence in offering proper alternatives
11:34I think it's changing and I know actually I know it's changing
11:38I know it's changing because I see it changing because we see it changing as well deborah
11:43The the the restaurants now the the restaurant groups
11:47Particularly in london that have a curated page of no and low drinks and products
11:55Is is growing and it just shows how sophisticated they could they sophisticated they could be
12:01In what they're putting on those lists, but the issue for me with this if I drink for instance kombucha
12:08I feel it is it it fully satisfies me it is fully tasteful
12:13It's exactly what I expect and and I get it. This just isn't quite
12:18And I think the market's going to change in a slightly different way that i'm not sure
12:23You're predicting at the moment, so it's just it just doesn't feel right for me. So I won't be investing.
12:29I'm out
12:33Will David
12:34So I I am I don't drink alcohol
12:38So I love that you're doing this because you're like leading the change
12:40I want to see in the world where I go to the restaurants as well
12:42And there's more options than just a diet soda or something
12:44So I am I really hope you do you are successful because if you are then as a customer
12:49That'll make my life better for sure for sure and your products are great
12:53Um the the sticking point for me is do I believe that this business I see before me
12:59Is going to get big enough fast enough to get a return as an investor
13:04When I factor in the amount of competition in this space
13:06And how this these industries are kind of mirages in a way because one assumes that
13:13Alcohol drinkers are going to transition directly over into the same drink in the non-alc
13:17category and that doesn't seem to translate
13:20It's just a bit too much for me to get my head around and at the 120k investment level
13:24I'd really need to have high conviction here, but I don't
13:28So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very very best
13:30Thank you
13:34Will and David
13:36Yeah, I think what you guys have done is great. I think the product is great as well
13:41But this is not a space that I'm well versed in to be fair. So for that reason I'm out
13:46But I think it's great and I wish you guys all the best
13:48Thank you
13:49What I'm about to say is no
13:54Disrespect to yourselves, you're very credible
13:57But this is not an area where I could put my hand on my heart
14:00To you and say guys if I invest i'm going to add value apart from investing and I don't invest
14:06passively
14:07And for that reason i'm out. Thank you
14:13I
14:14Guys yeah, look, I think I think you've done really well
14:16You've had a lot of compliments and it's very good and I do think that this there's there's no doubt
14:21that this is a
14:22There's a future here for a business like this
14:25But I think your valuation is ludicrous
14:29You know you're three and a half times your forecast of revenue against your value that you've come in
14:35So I do think that that's Matt. That's madness
14:38Look, I
14:39I take my hat off to you. I think you've done really well
14:41But um, I think that you you have over-evalued the business
14:45So i'm going to say that i'm out
14:49But thank you for introducing me to a really nice flavoured wine and thank you for your thank you
14:54Thank you dragon. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck
14:59That's it for will and david their de-alcoholized wine stirred conversation, but their offer to the dragons was politely
15:07and firmly declined
15:10It was exhilarating exciting just disappointed not to get the investment
15:15But we carry on pick ourselves up next opportunity
15:20I think deborah's point about it not feeling satisfying is a really really important one. It's because it's not wine
15:27I
15:28What an experience, huh? Wow
15:29Amazing
15:42I'm tolly farinto i'm from london and the founder of limitless
15:47When I was younger i came out of school was permanently excluded but i'm good now
15:54I was trying to figure out what was next for me in life and I feel like there are so
15:57many kids who
15:58Currently are in that stage of their lives and limitless is a perfect platform for them to connect to to
16:03explore what that could be
16:06Anybody here know anything about music?
16:09Yeah, I know a thing or two. Yeah, I can see it now pj and tiny there you go done
16:15Should we set it up? That'll go viral
16:19I really love music, but I just saw that there was a pain point around how inaccessible it was
16:25That's kind of when I stepped in to create limitless
16:44Hi dragons, my name is tolu farinto. I am a social entrepreneur and the founder of limitless a live music
16:51media company
16:52I'm asking for fifty thousand pounds for ten percent equity in my business
16:58I'm sure you'll agree young people are facing numerous barriers and we believe that they deserve to be inspired with
17:05music being an incredible medium to do so
17:08We commissioned some research which found that almost half of 18 to 24 year olds see live music as essential
17:13to feeling socially connected
17:15Yet over half of britons have been priced out of live music in recent years
17:20Further research shows that almost 1 million young people are not in education employment or training
17:27At limitless live we try to solve those challenges and since 2022 we've curated epic live music experiences at the
17:34roundhouse in camden
17:35Which has seen performances from multi-brit winner ray miss banks gets young t and bugsy and more
17:42And what if I told you young people could see this entirely
17:46For free well, we work with brands who want to access culture live music and social purpose through
17:54sponsorship
17:55We work together to unlock the benefits of live music making it accessible for people who increasingly can't afford it
18:01And we also give access to opportunities beyond our live music moment
18:06I would love a dragon or dragons to join me on this journey to make live music accessible and have
18:12a hell of a lot of fun while doing so
18:14a lot to open to questions
18:19A musical events business with social enterprise at its heart is the offering from tolu forinto
18:27He's asking for 50 000 pounds for a 10 percent share in his company
18:33Leading the lineup with the questions is tiny temper
18:41How you doing tolly you good good good good it sounds like it's right up my street already
18:45um
18:46So what what was the reason behind limitless live what what caused you to set it up?
18:51Um i've always been really passionate about supporting people and doing that through business
18:58um and you know music could be a great children horse in getting brands and businesses excited about
19:04supporting young people creating a free space where they could access music
19:07Yeah, but also while we do that signpost them to opportunities that may exist within their organizations cool and then
19:13you mentioned
19:16Brands so how does the whole model work like how are you guys making money?
19:20So brands sponsor the show we sell them various sponsorship packages
19:24So paying for a ticket on behalf of a young person we price each ticket between 30 to 35 pounds
19:30We work with brands to bring kids from
19:32Manchester liverpool huddersfield leeds and they pay for coaches and they get the kind of
19:38Ability to tell stories around those moments, but that's how we we raise money we um sell those packages to
19:43brands
19:44Okay, and um
19:46What sort of brands are you working with at the moment?
19:49So we've worked with a whole host of brands. We work with kfc. We've worked with viagogo. Okay, and um
19:56Have you got any of these brands to commit beyond one?
20:00experience? Yeah, so we've been working with
20:04Kfc over two years work with brands roughly around one to two years and sometimes that shifts
20:10But we've we've been working with brands for as long as as long as we've existed
20:13Okay, and since you've started how much have you turned over?
20:17Um, so in 2022 we turned over 85 000 pounds with a 17 000 pound gross profit
20:23And a profit of just over 2 000 pounds in 2023
20:28We turned over 82 000 pounds with a gross profit of just over 1 000 pounds and a loss of
20:357 000 pounds
20:36in 2024 we turned over 96 000 pounds
20:40With a gross profit of 6 000 pounds and a loss of just over 6 000 pounds
20:47Okay, um, i'll start with the numbers
20:52Um
20:54The business hasn't grown in three years
20:57And when I look at this growth profile and these this sort of financial performance it makes me think that
21:01maybe this is just a
21:03Sort of a small charity and not a business
21:06Well, the growth profile is down to us just building the proposition of making live music accessible
21:12There isn't really anything like what we do out there and we've gone through a process of really proving that
21:18to brands that it's really worthwhile
21:19And we've got a lot of evidence to prove that now
21:22But numbers are telling me a different story
21:24Because if if you've been able to prove that brands are willing to work with you
21:29What you'd be seeing here is you'd be seeing retention of brands in the past and then the addition of
21:35new brands
21:35So the numbers would be growing i'd be keeping my old brands and adding new ones
21:39So this kind of suggests to me that you're not retaining your current brands or something
21:44Something isn't quite working because you've got eyeballs and you put brands in front of those eyeballs. Yeah, and
21:51The numbers don't usually look like this if the products in high demand
21:55Yeah
21:56I I would say that we are retaining brands, but there is volatility
22:01So I would say that the level of pots of money that we're going after the budgets that we're going
22:05after and due to the relationships
22:07We have at those brands on occasion. They will just disappear
22:11Okay, so what's happening is you're going after
22:14Campaigns not retainers. Yeah, we're going after campaigns not retainers
22:18So brands are effectively giving you money for a one-off event. Yeah
22:21Okay
22:22So in order for you to get to the point where these numbers start to grow exponentially
22:25You basically need to change your approach
22:27Or else you're going to constantly be in a in a vicious sales cycle
22:32Where one marketing director at x brand decides it's a good idea they give you 20 grand
22:37Next year that maybe they're not there or they're onto a different initiative
22:40So you can't actually hire people and start to build a business unless you've got that predictable forecastable revenue
22:49You
22:50Tolia i'm slightly disconnected unless i'm missing something because your voiceover doesn't match the reality of what you've delivered
22:57It sounds
22:58Okay, i've got a business i'm working with loads of brands and then you go. Okay. What have you turned
23:03over?
23:03Well 85 year one 82 000 year two 96 000 year three
23:08Yeah, so i don't know how you've been able to pay for these events
23:14I don't i'm i'm missing something
23:17How are you paying how how for example last year 96 000? Yeah, what did it cost to put that
23:23roundhouse event on?
23:25It it costs about 98 000 pounds
23:29So more than your turnover. Yeah, that's why we've that's why we've made a loss year on year
23:34And I've put you just do one event then yeah, we do one event
23:37You've done one event in a year. Yeah, we do one event every year. Yeah, so what have you done
23:41for the other 11 months of the year?
23:43Oh, I I run another business
23:47There's got to be something yeah great. Can I invest in that because this one is not good enough. I
23:52don't know how that one's going
23:53I don't care
23:55Right so okay now it makes sense. Yeah, this is a part-time hustle
24:01social enterprise
24:03Stroke slash business that you're looking for investment in yeah
24:07You've run a one event each year for the last four years
24:10And you want to now build out this limitless live into something much bigger. Is that the plan? Yeah, that's
24:16the plan
24:16That's the plan. Why didn't you say that at the start? Oh, sorry. Sorry. You were all right. That is
24:21that was a missing gap
24:25So I think actually the crux of the issue that I'm seeing in this business is you're focused on the
24:31impact for young people
24:32Which is great that that side of the equation is really really happy
24:36But in order for this model to work there's two sides to it
24:39You also need to have big impact for the brands because they've been paying for just one-off events so
24:45far
24:45And you will never get retainers unless you sell brands impact
24:49So if this is the sales pitch we're putting on an event at the roundhouse. There's going to be
24:543,000 young people coming there
24:56you'll get
24:5815k if you say to that same brand we're going to change the perception of your brand amongst culture
25:04And it's going to take us a 12-month campaign which involves five events
25:09This this this this you can charge them two three four million
25:16You want to sell impact so you need to do big creative campaigns for those brands. Yeah
25:22Now I think you're going to brands and asking for 10 10k and 15k
25:27I'm asking for more they give me 10k 15k
25:31What you're saying is deserving of that 10 or 15k
25:35It is totally but sell them transformation
25:38And look them in the eyes when you say it and really justify it you'll have a different business
25:41But that's not what you've pitched me today, so i'm going to say that i'm out but i wish you
25:44the very best
25:46Thank you stephen
25:50And tolu i think that's great feedback i'll be really honest i don't think you've got a business at the
25:55moment
25:56And and and it's certainly not worth half a million pounds
26:00I love what you're doing. I love what you're trying to achieve
26:04But i can't invest in this at the moment because i don't see it as a business so i'm going
26:07to say that i'm out
26:14I
26:14Tolu um i love what you do
26:20However you're never going to make real money as you are now one event a year so for that reason
26:28i'm out
26:29Thanks tika
26:37Um, I get what you're doing
26:40And that's a lovely you know a lovely thing to do
26:44But I think you got some really valuable advice from stephen
26:49You need to think how can I make this absolutely compelling so i'm not having to come back every year
26:55You know with cap in hand saying can you can you sponsor me um but it isn't currently a business
27:02So i'm really sorry i won't be investing but i genuinely wish you all the luck i'm out
27:08Thank you deva
27:17Yeah, I think i think stephen had some incredible points about
27:21How you can communicate to the brands to kind of have like a
27:24You know a bit more of a you know retainer sort of relationship versus just the the one or two
27:31But in terms of looking at this as a business
27:34I can't invest in this so unfortunately bro i'm out really sorry
27:38Thank you appreciate it tony
27:40Good luck to learn thank you good luck
27:42Thank you
27:44That's it for tolu the dragons were impressed with his mission to make music accessible for all
27:50But on the business front they were dancing to a different tune
27:56It was tough in the den um but some really good feedback maybe it's too early for them to to
28:03invest in it
28:04But hopefully i have the last laugh and i can say i told you so then it's a fully fledged
28:08business
28:22I'm cameron i'm from essex and i'm here with arrowheads limited
28:29I first thought of this business in 2023 and then i got to work on it when luke littler came
28:34onto the scene
28:36Our first store launched last year and it's been beyond what we ever expected so far
28:44Is anyone any good at darts no not at all he's good at everything you're good at darts
28:48Okay i'm sorry deborah peter is good at no i'm not saying it again i'm not saying it again
28:53We got that didn't we
29:07Hi dragons i'm cameron and i'm the owner and founder of arrowheads
29:12I'm here today seeking 150 000 pounds in exchange for 10 of my company
29:19Back in 2022 i was working in the construction industry and it had me away from home for weeks on
29:25end
29:26So i started playing darts to keep myself occupied in the evening and no matter where i was in the
29:31uk
29:31I'd venture out in search of a dartboard if i even managed to find one it was often shoehorned into
29:38the corner of a pub
29:39And it consists of a battered board poor lighting and an old set of odd brass darts
29:46Obsessed with my new hobby i started to dream of a venue where darts was front and center
29:51I'd find myself ordering different sets of darts online only to be disappointed when they arrived in the post
29:57I'd try them out and realized that they just weren't right for me which eventually led me to the creation
30:03of arrowheads
30:05Our hybrid retail and leisure concept store began trading in august 2024 in norwich and has since become an absolute
30:13haven for darts fans new and old
30:16Our in-store playing lanes are fitted with automated scoring technology and are available to hire by the hour
30:23We also offer a try before you buy service and have an extensive range of demo darts that customers can
30:29experiment with free of charge
30:32We have a second larger store set to open later this year in scotland as well as the launch of
30:38our e-commerce platform
30:39Your investment would allow me to further stock our website
30:44It'd also accelerate the launch of our third store further cementing ourselves as the go-to name in darts retail
30:51I thank you for your time and i'd love to invite two of you up to try out some darts
30:57We've got history
30:59We've got a rematch to make because he hits the bullseye every time and i can't hit the ball
31:04Well that's exactly what we're about to try and do closest to the ball with free darts come on let's
31:08go
31:10A combined retail and leisure space for darts enthusiasts
31:15Is the proposition from cameron clark
31:18This could actually hit you
31:23See i hit the tire
31:25This is going to be the one
31:28Oh
31:28Unlucky
31:30Cameron is seeking a hundred and fifty thousand pounds
31:33Beat that mr
31:34James okay
31:35In return for 10 percent of his company his arms are so long as you put it in
31:46No one likes to show off
31:51But will this entrepreneur's business hit the bullseye with the dragons tiny temper is first to find out more
32:05So could you just explain to me about the darts world per se because you you spoke specifically about darts
32:12fans coming to arrowhead
32:13Yeah, so you know what does that world look like who is the profile of that
32:18So there really is no
32:20One customer that comes to us
32:23But darts has exploded the last few years i'm sure you've heard of luke littler
32:27The growth has been meteoric recently
32:30Fair enough and talk to me about um
32:33The difference between uh your your retail space
32:36Yeah
32:37In norwich and the e-commerce business like where where are you seeing more upside currently so the website is
32:42set to launch in
32:44Hopefully around august this year hasn't launched yet
32:48I'm hoping the website can
32:51Send us into a lot more revenue i'm sure it will
32:56Do we talk about uh the numbers for a bit yeah
32:58So in terms of like your retail space what's the revenue been like what's the overall
33:03So our revenue in eight months trading today has been four hundred and seventy five thousand pounds
33:07Okay
33:09And gross profit gross profit of a hundred eighty thousand which is fitting
33:13And the net
33:16Net of eighty three thousand nice okay
33:21Cameron yeah um well done thanks you seem like a very very capable young man appreciate that and uh
33:27I guess that leads me to my first question which is
33:30Why why did you want a dragon to invest in your business?
33:33So we really do want to launch that third store in high footfall key shopping malls
33:39We want to be next to well-known brands to really increase our brand perception
33:46And am i right in thinking that the social element of people coming to the store to play darts with
33:50their friends?
33:51Yeah
33:51Is really critical to driving the retail proposition?
33:55So people experience exactly what i did they want to try the darts out
33:59I mean tungsten darts cost anywhere between 20 and 500 quid
34:03You can waste a lot of money trying out different weights
34:07To discover which weight you need to be throwing you need to spend an hour somewhere throwing them
34:11And that's what we provide the lane rentals is
34:14A small section of what we do okay
34:16We are largely a darts retailer okay
34:18The leisure aspect is brilliant it gets people in the shop people love spending their time here
34:24We're in norwich and we've had people from gloucester and manchester travel across the country just for our store
34:28So is this always going to be a retail business in your in your mind?
34:32Yes
34:33Yeah
34:33Yeah
34:33That's the opportunity
34:34A lot of places now do do
34:36Um
34:39Darts in bars
34:40In fact i tried to get into one last night and i couldn't because they were all booked up till
34:4410 o'clock
34:45It's so popular at the minute
34:46Do you know what cameron it is and i'm really pleased you brought that up because last year
34:50We went to exactly the same place and we had a competition
34:54I can't remember this one dragon particularly
34:57Um i thought he was quite good because he's done it quite a lot before
35:00This is fake news but do you know do you know who won that
35:04I'm assuming you did
35:05He's still got the medal in his pocket
35:08I've actually still got the medal here
35:10But you're right it's a great joking aside
35:12So whilst those type of places they are really fun
35:17Real darts players don't want to go to them
35:19We do social darts in a different way
35:21It's genuine darts players that really do take the sport seriously
35:26As well as people that have popped in for a bit of fun
35:28It wasn't real darts and if we'd gone to real darts it would have been a different outcome so
35:32That begs the question though how big is the market
35:36So you've got you've got the social darts over here but you're talking quite purist aren't you
35:42Yeah
35:42So how big is that market
35:44Huge it is huge
35:46A lad that now works for me he was one of our best customers when we first opened up
35:50He's a good friend of mine now he was buying a set of darts off us every seven to ten
35:54days
35:55How many of those people are sort of wandering through a shopping mall
35:59We're a destination venue right like I said we get people from manchester gloucester
36:04Travel hours to see our shop
36:07I get a message sorry every single day when it's scotland opening
36:11Well that's gonna be my next question so you've opened the first one and that's you know
36:15That's great guns, but what's the hurry for the third store?
36:21Well, we figured we're making money in one
36:24We're gonna make money in two we don't want anyone that loves darts to be more than three hours drive
36:30from an arrowheads
36:30If we could have six or seven or eight even around the country that'd be fantastic
36:40Cameron yes, how big's the store?
36:4312 and a half thousand square foot in its entirety
36:46Okay, so you made 180,000 gross profit. Yep. What's the rent?
36:53We got a very good deal on the first store well, but what would be the rent?
36:58So the rent
37:00After our third year when we're paying the full amount including service charge and everything is around 20,000 for
37:07the shop
37:07Good and how many staff do you have there now?
37:10Now I have five staff
37:12So what's your staff wage a week then on that store?
37:15I think so far we've spent 85 to 90,000 on staff
37:18So that's where I want to get to because
37:22You've made 180,000 gross profit. Yeah, if you had to pay the proper rent proper rates
37:28You'd probably not make a lot of money in that store
37:31At the moment you're showing only a low margin 30 odd percent
37:35We have a gross margin an average gross margin of 37 percent. It's low you're going to be making 60
37:41percent margin in retail
37:44The margin we have to follow
37:47Recommended retail price if we go far beyond that then people will not shop with us
37:54My concern for you, okay, it's all well and good if you're in norwich and you're paying 20 grand
37:59Yeah, but as you quite rightfully said you want to be in shopping centers
38:04Lots of traffic you will find those rents
38:08We'll go up yeah, and for whatever reason if
38:13The manufacturers squeeze you a bit on the margin you'll struggle I think
38:19So I'm going to say I'm out okay, thank you
38:26Cameron and I think you built a great business
38:30But I look at this and I go okay hang on a minute if I was to go and invest
38:34and put a million pounds on the table
38:37Could I open five or ten outlets?
38:40Immediately and do exactly what you're doing and I had a hundred percent of it
38:45You're asking me to invest in business valued at hundred one point five million and have a small little piece
38:51of that
38:52And I can see you're going to go on and you're going to make money out of this
38:56But I can't see the value of being part of that journey
39:01So for that reason I'm out
39:02Okay, thank you Peter
39:08Cameron um, I I think there is uniqueness in your business
39:11I also just think you're incredibly impressive
39:14But um, I feel like in order for me to get involved in this business
39:19I would have to be a pretty active darts player
39:22And that's why I kind of struggle with this business because it's not something that I would be
39:26Tremendously excited about personally
39:29So for that reason I'm gonna say that I'm out
39:32Thanks very much
39:36So my issue is I know this is gonna come as a massive surprise to you
39:42But I'm not a darts player really
39:47I know but I genuinely I would echo what everybody else says you're good
39:52And I think investment or no investment you've you've got a good business here
39:56And i'm sure that you will absolutely maximize it
39:59So but i'm afraid it's not an investment for me. So i'm out
40:07Cameron um, I think what you've done is pretty incredible you started off a business
40:12You've already turned over a profit and actually um when I first started making music I was
40:19In a group with a guy called rare and his dad was a world champion darts player as well
40:24um
40:25But I remember just having like very little interest at the time and so to see the way you've kind
40:30of
40:30Disrupted the space like I love the branding I love
40:34The whole direct creative direction um that you're taking everything
40:37But I think where I got stuck was on the fact that you said it was for purist
40:41Darts players and I understand that it's a growing area in in in the world of sports
40:47However, it's something I know very little about and it's something that I have not much passion for as well
40:55So for that reason I'm out as well
40:57Okay, thanks very much. Thanks Cameron. Cheers. Well done. Take care. Good luck. Well done, mate
41:04Sadly for Cameron he must leave empty-handed
41:08His dark space business having failed to take flight in the den
41:13So obviously very disappointed not to get the investment
41:17However, we are going to move forward with this business and achieve everything we set out to do
41:22Should we leave and let Deborah practice?
41:24Yeah, do you want to practice?
41:25Well, we're going to go into the dragon's lair
41:27I'm going to hit the ball. I'm going to hit
41:28We'll leave you Deborah. Good night Deborah
41:33I hit the board. You didn't hit a number
41:36Have I got to hit a number? Yeah
41:49I'm Abilasha Bowie and I'm from London
41:53I think what I'm really genuinely passionate about is getting more and more people
41:58access to products that genuinely have more natural ingredients in them
42:04Plant-based ice cream
42:05This is perfect for you Deborah
42:07Is it plant-based ice cream?
42:09It looks like it
42:10It also says it on the side of my fridge here, but I'm not giving it away
42:16I've poured my heart and soul into this
42:19I've just been doing it all on my own
42:21And because of that, it's just taken its time
42:24But now I feel like I'm ready to take this business to the next level
42:37Hello dragons, my name is Abilasha Bowie and I'm the founder of Moonji
42:41At Moonji, we make delicious, all-natural, plant-based ice cream inspired by Ayurveda
42:49Today, I'm here seeking £75,000 in exchange for a 15% equity in my business
42:58So growing up, my mum really inspired my love of cooking with natural ingredients
43:03So inspired by my British Indian heritage, I was inspired to create Moonji
43:08Where I could share those values and memories through ice cream
43:13So our ice creams are of course plant-based and we use an oat and coconut cream base
43:19So after a year of countless recipe testing with friends and family
43:23I then launched into the acclaimed vegan restaurant pharmacy in Notting Hill
43:28We also have worked with premium retailers like Fortnum & Mason's and Planet Organic
43:34Up to this point, we've been very small-scale, producing all in-house, small batches
43:41And now we're really ready to take Moonji to the next level
43:45So thank you so much for listening
43:47And now I really can't wait for you to try our ice creams
43:51Nor can I
43:53Amazing, great
43:54OK, let's do this, all right
43:58A plant-based ice cream with her British Indian heritage at its heart is the offering from Abhi Lashabawi
44:05Great, thank you
44:06She's seeking £75,000
44:09Thank you
44:11For a 15% share in her business
44:15The ice cream seems to be going down well
44:18He's eating all
44:19He always eats all the pies
44:21Great, I love it
44:22Tuka Suleiman is already a fan of the product
44:26But will he find the business just as palatable?
44:33Hi, do I call you Abhi?
44:36Yes, most people call me Abhi
44:37Abhi, right
44:37OK, Abhi, um
44:40You've mentioned Fortnum's
44:41Yeah
44:41You've mentioned Planet Organic
44:43So I'm assuming that you're positioning this at the higher level?
44:48That's correct
44:49Like it is an artisanal premium product and better ingredients costs more
44:55Sure
44:56So when did you actually launch this?
44:58So we launched into pharmacy at the end of summer 2019
45:022019?
45:03That's correct
45:04That's correct
45:04It's not new, new
45:04Yeah
45:05No
45:05OK, alright
45:06So give us the last years of your trading to give us an idea of how the business has progressed
45:13Sure
45:13So for three years back we had a revenue of 26,000
45:19Yep
45:19And we had a loss of minus 19,000
45:22Yep
45:232022 to 2023
45:25We had revenue of 22,000
45:29Mm-hmm
45:30And we had a loss of minus 42,500
45:35Mm-hmm
45:36And then this is the last year that's just gone
45:38Uh, we generated a revenue of 18,000
45:4118
45:4218
45:4218
45:43And we had a loss of minus 46,000
45:48Whoa
45:48Yeah
45:49So could I just explain a little bit about the last thing?
46:03You can explain
46:05Feeling at the beginning really
46:07To scale this I want to find a factory manufacturing partner
46:11So we raised 105,000
46:13With the intention of taking on the factory
46:16So that's why the expenses were higher
46:20However we had a factory let us down basically
46:24And then I said okay we'll start over again
46:27And we'll find another factory
46:29And this factory was really keen to take us on
46:33And then, um, it was just
46:35They just didn't quite work out basically
46:38They were having financial difficulty
46:42Abby
46:42Yeah
46:43Um, I think it tastes amazing by the way
46:45Oh, thank you
46:45It's great, congratulations
46:46Thank you
46:48What is, um, Ayurveda?
46:50Because I, I don't really know what that is
46:52What is it?
46:53Yeah, so Ayurveda is basically an ancient holistic system
46:58That comes from India
46:59And it's sort of like lifestyle
47:02Holistic lifestyle health
47:03Which is a really beautiful thing about it
47:07Cool
47:07Anything that's kind of like lifestyle consumer brand
47:10I'm, I'm very much into it
47:12So you were saying initially when you launched in 2019
47:15You launched in Fortnum & Masons and Planet Organic
47:18Why didn't those relationships continue?
47:21With Fortnum & Masons, the issue was
47:24Was that I was making it on a really tiny ice cream machine
47:27And they wanted quite a considerable amount of volume
47:30And then with Planet Organic
47:32We were like, yeah, we will listen with them for three years
47:34And I was so focused on finding this factory
47:36That I, I just, I missed the boat on getting it back in the freezers last year
47:40Yeah, because yeah, the numbers are a bit concerning as well
47:44But how, as a brand, are you guys marketing yourselves currently?
47:48Obviously just organic kind of followers on social media
47:52How many do you have now?
47:53We currently have just over 4,000 on Instagram
47:56What about TikTok?
47:58Last time I checked, we got maybe about 300 followers
48:02Okay
48:02Admittedly, it's pretty poor
48:05It's not poor, that's more than Tuka
48:06Okay
48:09It's all, I guess it's all relative
48:13Happy last year, hi
48:14Yes, Peter
48:16I love ice cream
48:17Yeah
48:20It's really good
48:21Oh, thank you
48:22I'm really genuinely surprised how good, especially the vanilla and the black cardamom it is
48:28Yeah
48:29Really, really nice taste
48:30Oh, thank you so much
48:31But then when you gave out the numbers of where you've got to
48:35It kind of, it was quite deflating to hear the last three years
48:40Turning over 20,000 a year
48:43So what is it specifically, the feedback you're getting of why this isn't taking off?
48:48The feedback so far is price
48:51So I understand as we scale, our ingredients costs, our packaging costs will go down
48:57Well, it's got to be a
48:58I go back to this three to four years of very flat growth
49:03And you're in some really great places
49:05Thank you
49:06As a test bed, this would be great
49:09You say it's just price, but I wonder if it is something else
49:12Are you sure it's just price?
49:14This is where I can really, the help of a dragon would be really valuable
49:18Because there have been points where I think even for me really distilling like what are our usps
49:24And how to really translate that to a buyer who's looking at how that can really add value on their
49:29shelf
49:29And I haven't actually had those conversations with big retailers
49:36Are you an overthinker?
49:44Yeah, with things I feel uncertain about, I would say
49:48Business is quite an uncertain thing though, isn't it?
49:52Because I'm looking at your numbers and watching you explain things and rationalise certain things that happen in the business
49:58And I'm wondering if you have that like tenacious high-risk entrepreneur in you
50:06Because it is quite remarkable that a product that I think tastes gorgeous is what in year five or year
50:13six
50:13And is doing 18 grand or something or 20 grand and less than it did last year
50:19Yeah
50:19And when I simply ask myself the question, as an entrepreneur, would I have allowed that to happen?
50:25There's absolutely no chance
50:26Yeah, and I've asked myself that same question
50:30What question?
50:31Why have we had just a flat line for the last three years?
50:35What's the honest answer when you're alone at night and you're asking yourself that question?
50:39I found that the weight of like the production when honestly my heart was never really fully in it
50:46It was just to create the recipes, right?
50:48And then to hand over the production to someone else
50:51You don't like that part of the business?
50:52Yeah, but I just have hated the manufacturing to be completely honest with you
50:57It's really, it's drained me
50:58And is that causing you to procrastinate?
51:00Yeah
51:00Okay, so we got there in the end
51:03It's interesting because humans are discomfort avoiding creatures
51:08Which means that if we have an important essay to do or important homework
51:11What we end up doing is cleaning the house
51:13Now, unfortunately, when you're a one-person band, you've got to do it all
51:17And I think maybe that's what you've struggled with over the last couple of years
51:21For me, I think the best predictor of the future is the past
51:23Sure
51:24So I'll use the past as my compass
51:27So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very best
51:29Thank you, Stephen, thank you
51:33Abby, hi
51:34Hi, Deb
51:34Um, so my worry is for you
51:37You've already been into some of your key stores and you're out of there
51:41Yeah
51:41Because if you actually go into some of these key stores
51:44You can actually talk to them about manufacturing
51:47Not the stores themselves
51:48Somebody who's actually having product made
51:51Like another ice cream business?
51:53Yes
51:53Yeah
51:53Yeah
51:54So that's what I did with the last factory that they ended up
51:57We ended up paying for the first order with them
52:00And then in January, we found out they were going into liquidation
52:02So that was actually me asking another brand who produces for you
52:07That's great
52:08Yeah
52:09But actually this does go to show your depth of knowledge in business
52:12Because before you hand all of your business over to somebody else
52:18You can very easily check whether or not they are solvent and sound
52:26Sure
52:26You didn't do that bit, did you?
52:28Um, you know what?
52:30There were people that were warning me that maybe there was slight
52:34You didn't?
52:35There were a couple of red flags
52:36But I think I was just really willing to take that risk
52:39Oh my goodness
52:40Now that's exactly the kind of risk you don't take
52:46Sure, yeah
52:47Yeah, I can understand why that
52:48That would really seem like, um, a bad decision on my part
52:53So
52:53Yeah
52:53My worry is here
52:55I hear you say I spoke to a
52:57You know, there was one person let me down
52:58Then another person let me down
53:00It's not a good story when you're trying to gain investment
53:04Yeah, yeah
53:05So I'm afraid I won't be investing
53:07Mm-hmm
53:08But it is lovely stuff
53:10Thank you
53:11I'm out
53:11Thank you
53:16You have a great product
53:18Thank you
53:21Unfortunately, you're the problem
53:23Okay
53:25I don't know where you're going to go with that investment
53:26But that investment today is not going to come from me
53:29Okay
53:30For that reason, I'm out
53:31Okay, thank you, Jika
53:38Um
53:42I think you're
53:44I think you're in trouble
53:46Okay
53:48I love ice cream
53:49This is what is interesting
53:50Because when I invested in Levi Roots
53:53It was like quite weird
53:54But I loved the sauce
53:56I tasted it and I went, oh my god, wow
53:59But the person standing in front of me wasn't an entrepreneur
54:01It was a musician
54:05And I feel the same about that today with you
54:09Wow, okay
54:11You need somebody to back you
54:13And believe in you, don't you?
54:17Um, so I'm going to give you that opportunity
54:23Um, I have everything organizationally
54:27To allow you to do what we allowed Levi to do
54:29Which was to go out and be you
54:32Telling the world about this amazing product that you've created
54:36But you have no idea of how to make that happen, do you?
54:40Well, that's where I come in
54:43I think this is a wonderful opportunity
54:47And that's why I'd like to talk to Tiny
54:49Hello, Peter
54:50I was hoping you'd say that
54:52What are you thinking?
54:53I would love to have an opportunity of sharing this potentially with you
54:57Thank you
54:58Because I think that what you what you need is you need the operational capability which I bring
55:04And Tiny what he brings to make this the awareness of this product and to back you and to be
55:09I mean, this is perfect
55:10So I would like to offer you
55:13Half of the money
55:15But for 15 percent of the company
55:18Okay
55:19And I'm happy to offer you that of a half but also for 15
55:24Okay, wow
55:25So I'll be last year you came in asking for 75,000 for 15 percent
55:31And we've offered you 75,000 but for 30 percent
55:37Yeah
55:38Okay, thank you so much. I'd like to accept both of your offers
55:44That's the right decision
55:47Success for Abby
55:48Thank you so much
55:50As peter jones and tiny temper unite
55:53Congrats
55:54In a double act to help take her plant-based ice cream venture to the top of the charts
56:03I'm feeling such a mix of emotions
56:08I just love the fact that i've got two dragons like how cool is that
56:14I can see it's at glastonbury i can see the headline tall and tiny
56:17Cool and tiny
56:18I like that
56:19What a force
56:20To be fair he said tiny and tall but you're gonna have to sort out who does that
56:24Yeah you can't
56:24No go on you take it
56:26You take it man this is your world
56:29Peter was one of my dream dragons to get
56:32He's like the og dragon and then on top of that the fact that we have tiny as well is
56:38amazing
56:39I literally in my teenage years used to listen to tiny temper so wow is this actually really happening my
56:47dreaming
57:00If i be me i'll never let this down
57:02Next time here we go
57:03I am absolutely your perfect dragon
57:06I disagree with deborah i'll be your perfect dragon
57:08We've got a showdown
57:08Is your life now complete something fishy here
57:11Sorry
57:12You really have stepped up well today
57:15Then it's all off
57:16Come here mate
57:17I'm so proud of you
57:18I'm so proud of you
57:19I knew you had deborah when she sniffed your clothes
57:24Like love island only a little bit more smelly
57:27Is that right?
57:30Why does some british food have such a bad reputation?
57:34Find out on the here for the history visualized podcast
57:37Listen on sounds or watch on iplayer
57:39This and everything across the bbc is made possible because we're
57:44Funded by you
57:45Thank you
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