- 41 minutes ago
The video also looks at the key takeaways from the Summit in New Delhi, where member states adopted the 140-point New Delhi Declaration. The declaration called for reforms to the United Nations Security Council, backed India and Brazil, condemned terrorism including the Pahalgam attack, and called for de-escalation in West Asia.
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00:01Hello and a very warm welcome to an India First special broadcast focusing on the outcomes of
00:07the 18th BRICS summit and the India-China bilateral on the sidelines of the summit in New Delhi.
00:14I'm Gaurav Samad. The BRICS leaders were unanimous in the adoption of the 140-point New Delhi
00:20declaration under the theme of resilience, innovation, cooperation and sustainability.
00:27The leaders forged a consensus on reforming the United Nations and the Security Council
00:32with explicit backing for India and for Brazil. The grouping condemned terrorism in the strongest
00:41terms including the April 2025 Pehelgaam terror attack and rejected unilateral tariffs and carbon
00:48border measures as protectionist. One of the key highlights of the BRICS summit was the meeting
00:55between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chinese President Xi Jinping in New Delhi and this
01:00happened after a gap of seven years in India and the first after Galwan 2020. The two leaders decided
01:08that differences must not become disputes, relations must rest on mutual respect, sensitivity and interest
01:15and peace and tranquility on the borders remain the indisputable foundation for the relationship
01:22to move forward. Both New Delhi and Beijing recommitted to existing border agreements and to a fair,
01:29reasonable and mutually acceptable statement and settlement of the boundary question while
01:34pledging to tackle the structural trade imbalance, expand market access, restore people to people and
01:40business to business links and support each other's BRICS chairship. The optics were all right,
01:48showing the two Asian giants as rivals, as partners and not rivals. As two countries who draw from each other's
01:57strengths and help each other succeed. India insisted the relationship can move forward only when there is peace and
02:04tranquility at the borders. Our Diplomatic Bureau gets you our top story on India First.
02:29It is a mega diplomatic win for India. BRICS summit has successfully concluded in Bharat. Prime Minister Narendra
02:40Modi hosted the two-day meeting and transformed it into a win-win collaboration.
02:52Rezillience, innovation, co-operation, sustainability, in charge, remember, for all it is a win-win
03:04sustainability, and in charge, and in charge, the 뭐가 of sin need had been
03:05a great victory. I was so glad to make this year as a win-win challenge, the
03:11objective of the individual. Prime Minister Narendra Modi
03:11Al-Sala, I am happy to acknowledge that between the content of the world we are
03:18India forged a consensus of BRICS countries.
03:22Indian diplomats worked through the night to save a joint BRICS statement.
03:28Negotiators stayed up till 4 a.m. over the language of the joint declaration,
03:33carefully avoiding any ruffle feathers.
03:36Iran and UAE wanted the word attacks mentioned in the text of declaration.
03:41However, Iran and the United Arab Emirates agreed to a last-minute compromise
03:46on the language used about the war in West Asia.
03:49Later, all 11 members of the group adopted the new Delhi declaration.
03:54The declaration calls for restraint and de-escalation in West Asia,
03:59peaceful resolution of disputes, dialogue and diplomacy,
04:03stronger multilateralism and respect for international law.
04:11The declaration has made our trust and trust that BRICS is a solution of a eco-sisteme.
04:44Prime Minister has also flagged serious concerns over the weaponization of technology and critical
04:50minerals. Now, the baton has been passed to China, which will host the BRICS nations next year.
05:27India's success in bringing BRICS countries with incongruent, even conflicting outlooks on key
05:33global issues of contention together is a testament to its foreign policy.
05:38The 2026 BRICS summit in New Delhi concluded with the New Delhi declaration demanding a more
05:45inclusive global order. Bureau Report, India Today.
05:54And joining me now to analyze the outcomes of the BRICS summit and the bilateral with China
06:00is Salman Khurshid, former External Affairs Minister, former Minister for Law and Justice
06:05and Minority Affairs. He's dealt with the very tricky India-China issue directly as the External
06:12Affairs Minister of India during the UPA government. Sir, welcome. A consensus despite contentious
06:20issues warring sides on the same table in New Delhi. We saw a meeting between Iran and the UAE.
06:27your reading of this unanimous adoption of the New Delhi declaration.
06:36Look, I think that this is a part of a continuum that has gone in the right direction. There are
06:46a lot of
06:48issues that have been for which ground has been laid. But I think the important thing is that the ground
06:55that is laid in this declaration and whatever has preceded this declaration in the previous BRIC meetings,
07:05how that's taken forward in effect wherever there is some difficult area. And you know the difficult area,
07:12as you are aware, are West Asia, Iran, Iran, Israel, United States of America, and in Europe, etc.
07:20Now, how we take it forward and who takes it forward, what kind of role India will conceive for itself
07:27beyond BRICs? What can happen beyond BRICs is the thing.
07:32It indeed is. But the fact that they were able to come on common ground, sir, the explicit condemnation,
07:40for example, of the Pehelgam terror attack and of cross-border terrorism. Does this, in your view,
07:46represent forward movement and consensus on a very critical issue of terror, sir?
07:54Absolutely. But it's been happening. This is not something a rabbit out of a hat suddenly.
07:59This is something that's been happening over a period, over different BRIC sessions, etc.
08:07And we have gone in the right direction. But, you know, there will be disappointments.
08:11There are disappointments in India about not specifically mentioning the country
08:16from where cross-border terrorism is inflicted on India. There would be disappointments.
08:21But, you know, when you are in a multilateral situation, everything is not always possible.
08:27But what is possible is put down. And if that points to something more possibly in the future,
08:34then that can be said to be satisfactory or at least a good beginning.
08:39Sir, you know, you rightly mentioned that Pakistan wasn't mentioned by name.
08:43But when there is a reference to, for example, cross-border terrorism or UN-designated global terrorists,
08:49would that shame Pakistan or will Pakistan, you know, it's gone so far down that nothing actually shames it into
08:58reforming itself?
09:03Well, I think it's sort of expecting too much from Pakistan.
09:08Nothing in the history of the past 20, 30, 40 years indicates that naming and shaming is anything that has
09:17an impact on them.
09:18It's been much worse than that. And then the kind of support that they have got periodically from important countries,
09:26whether it's explicit or implicit, is something that we still need to deal with.
09:31I think that just the declaration may not do enough.
09:35We may have to go beyond the declaration.
09:38We may have to go beyond BRICS to the larger diplomatic outreach that we have to continue.
09:46So, there are many, many possibilities, openings pointing to right directions,
09:51but we need to take that right direction and move forward.
09:55Interesting you should mention that.
09:57And I'll come to China and the bilateral in just a moment.
10:00For a moment, I want to continue talking about BRICS outcomes.
10:04Russian President Vladimir Putin spoke of facing sanctions.
10:08Iranian President Masood Pizishkian spoke of sanctions, and these are not UN sanctions.
10:14Sir, has India been able to walk that fine line, stand strongly with BRICS partner nations,
10:20despite deep engagement with US and Europe?
10:22And what more should India do or can India do to ensure we also remain on the right trajectory
10:29and yet be with our BRICS partners?
10:35Well, very clearly, very, very clearly, there is much that is promising as far as the declaration is concerned,
10:42which we haven't seen, which we haven't seen before.
10:46We haven't seen, we haven't seen effective intervention by many countries.
10:51We certainly haven't seen effective intervention by India.
10:55But when India becomes party to this declaration,
10:58where would it go with intervention beyond this declaration is a big question.
11:02It's not easy. Let's be very clear. It's not easy.
11:05We can't, we can't just give up our relationship with one set of countries
11:10and say that we will deal only with another set of countries.
11:14That's not what India's position has ever been.
11:16And I believe, therefore, whatever was, and interestingly,
11:20that Bangdung has been mentioned after a long time in the declaration.
11:25Now, non-alignment has not been mentioned, but Bangdung is mentioned,
11:29which is where non-alignment began.
11:30So are we really looking at non-alignment in another format
11:36or non-alignment in a redesign, reformatted form, et cetera, is a big question.
11:47But you have to deal with contradictory aspirations
11:52as far as friendly countries or countries that we have relationships with are concerned.
11:57I think this will be the big challenge for us,
11:59as indeed it may be for other countries as well.
12:02So is multi-alignment the new non-alignment or, in fact,
12:07going from multilateralism to plurilateralism?
12:10I'm not.
12:12You don't think... Go on, sir.
12:15No, no. I'm not quite sure that multi-alignment makes much sense.
12:20It certainly doesn't make sense to me.
12:22Non-alignment gives you the freedom to deal with anybody that you believe you should deal with
12:27or you feel comfortable to deal with at a given time.
12:31If you're aligned already, then where is the freedom?
12:36Where is the freedom to deal or not to deal with somebody who is a comforting partner at that particular
12:41time?
12:41So I believe that there has to be a redefining of what non-alignment means.
12:51Now, multilateralism is fine.
12:54And I think that multilateralism has been strengthened and purportedly strengthened.
12:59And I think we should welcome it.
13:00But we should go along the path of multilateralism,
13:03which means that all the institutions of multilateralism have to be strengthened.
13:08And they can be strengthened only with the clarion call that has come,
13:12which is that the voice of the Global South must be reflected everywhere,
13:17from the United Nations to IMF, World Bank and every other multilateral organization.
13:24And they're speaking of reforms.
13:26But let me for a moment now come specifically to India-China.
13:30And that's a subject you've dealt with very closely.
13:34Your reading of the India-China bilateral in Delhi after a gap of seven years in India
13:38and China talking of drawing from each other's strengths or helping each other succeed.
13:44We are hearing sweet words.
13:47But what sweet action would you want to see on ground after these sweet words exchanged in Delhi?
13:55Well, it's very clear.
13:56First of all, it's important.
13:58It's important for us to know in the opposition of this country.
14:02It's important for us to know that where did we start
14:05and where have we reached after the conversations that have happened.
14:10Not just here, conversation at SCO, conversation between the National Security Advisor
14:19and Foreign Minister of China.
14:21Yes.
14:21Where have we reached?
14:23And now, finally, with the bilaterals that we've had here, where have we reached?
14:28And how much further do we have to go?
14:30Some broad parameters, some broad expressions of outreach between the two of us have been mentioned.
14:38But I think we have to be more specific.
14:41And I think where there needs to be a greater sharing of information and knowledge
14:46between the government and the opposition so that the opposition can, in a well-informed way,
14:51support the government if it's so needed.
14:54That's a very good point you make, sir.
14:57You know, statements like partners, not rivals, win-win cooperation, all of that sounds wonderful.
15:03But, sir, you've dealt with that situation on ground when you were External Affairs Minister,
15:08incidents like Chumar or subsequently Depsang or Dolom or Galwan or Tak Singh recently.
15:15So, partners don't do this.
15:17How do we verify?
15:19You know, it's trust but verify.
15:21How do you verify that it is a new dawn or if there is a result?
15:29Precisely, precisely, this is just the point that I continue to make,
15:33that we need to have a conversation which is a candid conversation.
15:38Not to apportion blame, but at least to ask, why do you think these things happen?
15:44Why do these things happen?
15:46And what is the way to prevent these things from happening?
15:49I think, specifically, enough candor has not been shown as far as our conversation with China is concerned.
15:57I think there's too much formalism.
15:59There is too much officialese, etc.
16:02I think something more needs to be done.
16:05But what more needs to be done will only be clear once we know what has been done.
16:11And therefore, I think it's important that the government takes us into confidence,
16:15meaning the government takes the opposition into confidence,
16:19whichever part of the opposition it wants to take into confidence,
16:22and then see how the conversation can go any further.
16:26If you can't take a conversation with the opposition further,
16:30how will you take a conversation with China any further?
16:33Interesting point to make there, sir.
16:35And, you know, you've heard both Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chinese President Xi Jinping.
16:40There is talk that differences should not become disputes.
16:42So, someone who's handled this situation on ground,
16:45and I remember I interviewed you when you were the External Affairs Minister in 2013.
16:52You'd recall, you'd call this relationship, you know, acne on an otherwise very beautiful face when those soldiers had come
17:00in.
17:00Has anything changed between India and China?
17:04Has it only worsened?
17:06And this conversation, do you see some kind of a reset?
17:14Well, I think that it's worsened. Over a period, it's worsened.
17:19It's become very depressingly very bad.
17:26But there are moments in which we are told repeatedly that we've now put it back on track.
17:32We've now put it back on track. I don't think that that's enough.
17:35So, generalities will not do. I think we need to do something very, very specific.
17:41Now, who does it and how it's taken forward is a matter for the government to take a call on.
17:45If they want any suggestions from us, we would be more than willing to give suggestions.
17:50But, you know, this point about blaming the Congress for being pro-China
17:54and then Congress saying that you are giving in to China is not the best way to prepare,
18:00not the best way to prepare to have a meaningful conversation with China.
18:04You have to trust. We have to trust each other first.
18:07And the trust will come only with sharing of information.
18:11Thereafter, we begin to verify and trust, as you've said.
18:15Trust, but verify and verify and then trust.
18:18Only then we can begin that journey with China.
18:21And, you know, verify and trust and any concrete steps, you know, whether it's greater access to Chinese markets for
18:29Indian goods.
18:30That's again a subject you've dealt with personally, sir, or peace and tranquility at the borders.
18:36So, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he was speaking about BRICS as a grouping, he said the world now expects
18:42concrete results from the grouping and not just ideas and commitments.
18:47So, what are those concrete results that you want to see on ground?
18:56Well, I think the concrete results are not entirely in the hands of China.
19:00Something China can do as far as the trade deficit is concerned.
19:04But there must be something that we can do and we must do.
19:07We can't just leave it all at their door and say that, now, they have to put their house in
19:13order so that we can ensure that there is no trade deficit.
19:16Must be something that we need to do.
19:19So, let's look at ourselves as well and then work out on a plan, step by step, how do we
19:25get rid of trade deficit.
19:26That's very, very critical.
19:27Now, of course, over the period when things have worsened, things have gone bad, etc., we've always kept open channels
19:36of people-to-people contact.
19:38And that's never been a major problem.
19:40There's some minor discrepancies, etc., which can be handled and which are now, I believe, being handled again with flights
19:47coming in and visas, etc., being released more easily.
19:51But I think, basically, there are some things that we need to do at home, and there are some things
19:58that we need to do with China, and there is something that China needs to do at its own end.
20:04Mr. Salman Khursheed, for joining me here on this India First special broadcast, many thanks.
20:13Thank you very much.
20:14On his first visit to India in seven years, and his first since Galwan 2020 clashes, the President of China,
20:21Xi Jinping, met Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the sidelines of the BRICS summit for a bilateral that lasted about
20:2650 minutes.
20:27The two leaders that reviewed India-China relationship, border, peace, and boundary question, trade imbalance, supply chain concerns, and market
20:38access, these were issues that were on the table.
20:40The key message, differences must not become disputes.
20:45Prime Minister Narendra Modi thanked the Chinese President for China's contribution towards the success of the BRICS summit.
20:51Chinese President Xi Jinping said, India and China can learn from each other's strengths.
20:56They are not rivals, they are partners.
20:59Here's how the Modi-shi bilateral played out in the national capital.
21:10One is the dragon, the other the tiger.
21:16Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping came face to face at the Bharat Mandapam in New Delhi,
21:23as Xi returned to India for the first time in seven years.
21:30Prime Minister Narendra Modi was on display right from the beginning, with the two sharing a handshake upon Xi's arrival
21:37at Bharat Mandapam.
21:40And then it was the turn of the Troika.
21:44Prime Minister Modi, President Xi and Russian President Vladimir Putin together.
21:51Handshakes, smiles and bonhomie between the leaders of three of the world's biggest powers.
21:58And then came the mother of all meetings.
22:02Prime Minister Modi and President Xi sat down for delegation-level talks.
22:07It lasted around 50 minutes.
22:10This was the first Modi-shi bilateral in India in seven years.
22:15And came six years after the Galwan flashes pushed ties into a deep freeze.
22:21And the message emerging from the meeting was clear.
22:25India and China want to move the relationship forward.
22:29The two leaders welcomed the steady progress in bilateral relations and agreed that India and China must take a strategic
22:38and long-term view of their ties.
22:41Crucially, both leaders agreed that differences should not become disputes.
22:47Prime Minister Modi put forward his three mutuals as the basis for the relationship.
22:53mutual respect, mutual sensitivity and mutual interest.
22:59On the border issue, the message was clear.
23:02Peace and tranquility in the border areas remain essential for the continued development of bilateral ties.
23:10Both leaders also committed to working towards a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable resolution of the boundary question.
23:21The two leaders discussed the structural trade imbalance and supply chain concerns, while underlining the need for meaningful and predictable
23:30market access.
23:32They also agreed to expand common ground on regional and global issues.
23:37Prime Minister Modi thanked President Xi for China's support for India's BRICS chairship and its contribution towards the success of
23:47the summit.
23:50I thank you very much for encouraging for your success of the summit.
23:55I thank you very much for your fulfillment.
24:16President Xi, meanwhile, pitched cooperation and shared development,
24:20saying India and China can learn from each other's strengths.
24:25We must keep the future of humanity and the well-being of our people at heart,
24:30working together to drive high-quality cooperation among developing countries.
24:35We should advocate for an equal and orderly multipolar world
24:39and inclusive economic globalization,
24:42thereby injecting more positive energy into global peace, stability, development and prosperity.
24:51From the opening handshake to the Troika tangle.
24:55And finally, the 50-minute bilateral.
24:58The optics were worn.
25:01But will this mark a new chapter in India-China ties?
25:05Only time will tell.
25:08Bureau Report, India Today
25:13And joining me now on India First is Ambassador Ashok Khan,
25:17former Indian ambassador to China.
25:19Ambassador, welcome.
25:22Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Xi have described each other as partners
25:27and not rivals, or words to that effect.
25:29Then they're committed to a fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable resolution of the boundary question.
25:35Sir, in your view, given the past track record,
25:41do you see this as a genuine reset in India-China ties, a new beginning?
25:48Or is this, you know, just taking baby steps, trying to restore the relationship?
25:54Gaurav, I will not characterize it as a new dawn in India-China relations or a reset of relations.
26:02In fact, you only need to look at the readouts issued by Ministry of External Affairs of India
26:09and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China yesterday.
26:12And there's a big gap.
26:14In fact, the formulation was just referred to partners, not rivals.
26:20Chinese readout has that formulation.
26:22Indian readout doesn't have that formulation.
26:24And there are some other very substantive issues on where two readouts are not convergent.
26:33For instance, if you look at our readout, the whole paragraph is devoted to boundary issue,
26:39especially need to maintain peace and tranquility in border areas.
26:43Whereas the Chinese readout says that, you know, we must advance bilateral ties and boundary issue
26:51on parallel tracks that reinforce each other.
26:55That means, you know, they are parallel tracks.
26:59They are not really intersecting tracks.
27:01Whereas our position is that it's only when borders are normal,
27:06we can look at overall relations being normal.
27:09It's a very, very substantive difference.
27:12True.
27:12Then again, you know, the Chinese...
27:14Yeah.
27:14Yes.
27:15So let's take this step by step.
27:16Prime Minister Narendra Modi stressed on peace and tranquility at the borders.
27:20And that remains the essential basis of this relationship to move forward.
27:24When you see the Chinese, you know, readout,
27:28that boundary issue moves in parallel with improving ties.
27:32Now, what does this actually mean on ground?
27:36What are key benchmarks that we should look at that indicate that China also has a genuine desire
27:42to move forward improving ties with India, ensuring there's peace and tranquility at the borders?
27:48It has been a substantive difference between two sides.
27:53We maintain that peace and tranquility is an essential prerequisite for continued normalization.
28:00Chinese don't accept that position.
28:02If you look at situation on the ground, unfortunately, what we are witnessing...
28:08Recently, we had reports on Arshad Pradesh about transgressions by China, you know, in Asafila area,
28:17possibly even in Longzhou area.
28:19You have a situation where disengagement was more or less agreed upon way back in October 2024.
28:28And since then, there has been absolutely no progress on de-escalation of troops.
28:33So there is still, you know, continued deployment of troops from both sides at a very high level,
28:40which is, you know, far from normal.
28:43The issue of de-induction, you know, doesn't figure at all at this point of time.
28:48So what I'm trying to say that if you look at, you know, situation on the ground,
28:54I think our concerns are definitely, you know, rooted in a factual position and our apprehensions are correct.
29:06Oh, absolutely.
29:08Because, you know, especially when it comes to China and who knows that better than you,
29:12it's not sweet words, but action on ground that must verify the next step in the relationship.
29:18And the two sides, while they may talk of agreeing to address the structural trade imbalance, for example,
29:25or supply chain issues and market access, the trade deficit stands at an alarming $112 billion.
29:32So do you see any conversation that indicates there could be formal, you know, formal movement or some forward movement
29:41that India gets greater access to Chinese markets?
29:45Our experience so far has not been very encouraging.
29:49We have been raising issue of getting better access to Chinese market,
29:54even products and services where we are globally competitive,
29:57for instance, pharmaceuticals or IIT services,
30:01where we have been unable to make a dent into Chinese market.
30:04And trade deficit keeps growing.
30:06Last year, according to Chinese trade statistics,
30:09they had a surplus of $116 billion.
30:11And this year, I don't know, they're likely to have been larger trade surplus.
30:15And it's not just a question of trade surplus, Gaurav.
30:18When we talk about economic engagement,
30:21we seem to be moving in opposite directions.
30:24We took steps on 10th March to liberalize the regime for investments from China to a certain extent
30:31through, you know, Press Note 2 of 2026.
30:34Whereas in the last three months, China has issued at least three decrees,
30:40tightening the regime for outward defense, outward, you know, direct investment,
30:46for technology transfer, for moving movement of Chinese engineers
30:51and technical personnel outside up.
30:54And these are specifically in areas where we are looking at, you know,
30:58Chinese investment to build up our capabilities, you know, electronics, renewables, EVs.
31:04They are, in fact, tightening the regime, especially, you know, Decree 837 of 1st July 2026.
31:11It's rather disturbing.
31:13It indeed is.
31:14We need to discuss the issue up front with the Chinese side in a friendly manner.
31:19But these issues cannot be brushed aside just by, you know,
31:23more talk that we must have closer economic engagement.
31:26Yes, closer economic engagement.
31:28But in what terms?
31:29Important thing is in terms of engagement.
31:32Absolutely.
31:32Because when Chinese president says that China approaches India
31:36from a strategic and long-term perspective, are these just words, you know,
31:43sweet words that we get from China, the irritants, they remain,
31:48these very serious issues, they still remain.
31:52What about this conversation, improve relations through mutual respect?
31:57If there is mutual respect, shouldn't we get access, for example,
32:00to the monopoly that China has either on solar or wind energy or on batteries
32:07or the tunnel boring machines that we so, you know, keenly require?
32:13No, you're absolutely right.
32:14You know, this language of taking a strategic and long-term view of India-China relations,
32:21we have been talking about it for more than two decades now.
32:25I was part of those conversations for quite some time, in fact.
32:31Unfortunately, you know, those mantras have to mean something in real practice.
32:38Yes.
32:38When it comes to, you know, action on part of two countries,
32:43we don't quite see that.
32:45You know, you just have referred to one aspect, which is economic engagement.
32:50And I'll refer to at least three other aspects very quickly.
32:55If we talk about, want to talk about, you know, reset in relations,
33:01a new dawn in relationship, it's not possible unless certain structural challenges are addressed.
33:09For example?
33:10For example, you know, last year during Operation Sindhu in May 2025,
33:16we witnessed a battlefield collusion between China and Pakistan,
33:21which was unprecedented and which influenced the battlefield situation in a very significant manner to a disadvantage.
33:29Point one.
33:30Point two, sir?
33:31Yeah.
33:31Point two, our prime minister had a meeting with President Xi at Kazan in October 2024,
33:37a good meeting which marked no sort of resumption or process of rebuilding of relations.
33:43Within two months, Chinese announced the largest hydropower projects at Medoc County in Tibet,
33:50within 50 kilometers in Arnachar Pradesh.
33:53And work started in July last year.
33:55No prior information to us, let alone any consultation with us.
34:00And now concerns have increased further after what happened in Nepal on 26 August.
34:07And point three?
34:08This project, no, this project, I'll just add one point.
34:11This project is being constructed in seismic zone 5,
34:18an area which has witnessed all the worst earthquakes in that region.
34:23And it's really a case of engineering hubris to take up a project of this magnitude there.
34:29Point three, I would like to say, you know, there's a broader issue.
34:33You referred to mutual respect.
34:36Now, mutual respect also includes, you know, acknowledging India as a peer nation, as a peer civilization.
34:44But Chinese, in fact, they tell us, in fact, to discussions quite bluntly,
34:48that what's the multipolarity in Asia we are talking about?
34:52In Asia, there's only one resident major part, that is in China.
34:57And India, you know, China's GDP is more than five times larger than India.
35:02So, why are you talking about multipolarity?
35:04I don't think India is going to accept that kind of...
35:07But do we see a change there during China's BRICS presidency
35:13when they're trying to sound conciliatory?
35:16And is this a window of opportunity for India to harness moving forward?
35:21And that's the story we will continue to track, Ambassador Khan, for joining me here
35:26on this India Today special broadcast.
35:28Many thanks.
35:29I now want to throw open this conversation for a wider discussion.
35:34Joining me is Left and Gentle S.L. Narsimman,
35:36former member of the National Security Advisory Board,
35:39former defense attache in Beijing.
35:41Andrew K.P. Leung is international China's strategist and analyst.
35:45And also, Ambassador Veena Sikri, former top diplomat.
35:49Andrew K.P. Leung, you've heard, you know, analysts in India
35:55who say that if there is a genuine desire for peace on the Chinese side
36:01or a reset, you know, when there is reference to India and China
36:06being partners, not rivals, it has to be based on peace and tranquility
36:11at the borders first.
36:13Do you see that happen?
36:15Do you see that change?
36:16Because the readout on the Chinese side, analysts here argue, is different.
36:21Well, there has been a great deal of mistrust, deep-seated mistrust
36:28because of these long-standing disputes of the line of actual control
36:34and then various territorial claims.
36:38All these frictions dates back to the partition of that area at the time of the British Empire
36:49before India gained its independence.
36:52And, of course, during that time, the British, in fact, invaded China.
36:59India did not—it was only a colony at that time.
37:03And then that extended the kind of boundaries and then partitioned certain areas.
37:09And this is a legacy of history.
37:11There is no way that China could just accept that and forgive and forget about all these claims
37:20because it was China's territory.
37:23But at least peace and tranquility can be maintained on the borders.
37:27Let me finish, please.
37:29I haven't—this is only a small point.
37:32My point is that because of these deep-seated differences,
37:37I think the presidency was saying that, well,
37:41both sides should treat each other with respect,
37:45respect each other and respecting history,
37:47but also setting these issues aside for the time being.
37:51Because there is no way that such long-standing problems are going to be resolved anytime soon.
37:57Both have—
37:58They've been resolved with 12 or 14 partners, sir.
38:02It's only with Bhutan and India that it remains.
38:05The presidency's statement suggests that, well,
38:11don't let these stumbling blocks kind of hinder the areas of cooperation.
38:19Both sides acknowledge these—their respective stance, but let's de-escalate.
38:26But that's both leaders, you know, actually order both sides to de-escalate,
38:33even a year or so to go,
38:35because this kind of relationship is not very productive.
38:41But now the whole world is now facing—
38:43You know, that point is taken, sir, but do we see de-escalation on ground?
38:46You know, Andrew K. Peelung, you've made your point.
38:48Let me bring in General Narsimhan to make his point.
38:51You know, if you say that we are partners,
38:54partners don't let a situation like Chumar or Depsang or Dolom or Galwan
38:59or the recent situation in Arunachal Pratesh at Taksingh take place, General Narsimhan,
39:05your understanding of what is being said on ground today,
39:10do you see this as a genuine desire to move forward from the Chinese side and the Indian side, sir?
39:17Good evening.
39:19Good evening, Gavlo.
39:20Thanks for getting me onto this show.
39:24Two, three points I want to mention.
39:26One, Mr. Lung mentioned about, you know, the keeping the boundary issue aside.
39:33I think we did that.
39:34We started doing that from late 90s.
39:37And that is how you found the relationship improving over a period of time till about 2013.
39:43Then the problem of Depsang bulge, Chumar, Dolom, and then Galwan happened one after the other.
39:51So that is something that we need to keep in mind.
39:54It has been tried earlier, but I don't think it worked.
39:57So that is something that we need to keep in mind.
39:59The second point is about, if you look at this statement that have come out from the Indian Ministry of
40:04External Affairs
40:05and the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I think both the sides have mentioned exactly their stance,
40:11which has been existing before.
40:12So I don't see a major diversion in that particular thing.
40:18So both the sides seem to have said exactly the same thing that they have been saying earlier.
40:23So I don't see anything new coming up here.
40:26The third thing is about, absolutely, we should always look for options.
40:31We should always look for forward movement.
40:34There's nothing wrong with that.
40:35But then I think both the sides have to do that.
40:38In fact, if you look at the kind of action that Chinese have taken over a period of time
40:43in restricting access to Chinese industry and market and other things,
40:49and also restricting the export that was supposed to come to India.
40:53So if you look at all that, while we are talking about improving relationship,
40:58but I'm not very sure that both the hands are actually clapping.
41:03So that is something I think we need to keep in mind.
41:06Very good point you made, sir.
41:09The two to tango doesn't seem to be happening at this point in time.
41:14Absolutely.
41:15Ambassador Sikri, post-Kazan 2024, Tianjin 2025, and now New Delhi 2026,
41:21and especially now that China takes over the chairmanship of BRICS for 2027,
41:26do you see this as a window to build good ties or to harness this opportunity?
41:32But then there is no give from the Chinese side,
41:35whether it's the border issue or greater access to Chinese markets.
41:41Yes, thank you.
41:42Thank you, Gaurav.
41:43I do agree with General Aftiman that we have to have a mutual give and take.
41:49If China wants to continue improving relationship,
41:52they have to respect India's point about mutual respect,
41:56mutual sensitivity, and mutual interest.
41:58Now, talking even about the old border,
42:00when you talk about the British having done the border in Arunachal Pradesh,
42:04we know that China accepted the McMohan line in Myanmar.
42:08So the whole argument that this was only a colonial thing,
42:12it is wrong, it's incorrect.
42:14But looking ahead, I would like to say that India is trying also to diversify.
42:19Let us take the issue of tunnel boarding machines, for example.
42:21This time, President Putin has been talking about giving tunnel boarding machines to India
42:26or even on the manufacturing basis, again,
42:29because Russia is always ready to transfer the technology
42:31and set up manufacturing units in India.
42:34And even the area of critical minerals and rare earths,
42:38even that area we are trying to diversify and not depend on China alone.
42:43So I think India has to continue that process very carefully.
42:48Even in issues like API for the pharmaceutical industry,
42:53India at one time had its own speciality in the API.
42:57But suddenly, after the 1991 reforms,
43:00it was given over to China and we've not been able to get it back again.
43:03So I think it has to be a combination of recognizing
43:07what has been happening in the last few decades,
43:12as General Akserman mentioned,
43:13but also seeing what we can do to move ahead and diversify.
43:17Because China has not changed its position on any of these.
43:20China has not changed its either vision or actions on ground, Mr. Leung.
43:26You know, when India seeks greater access to the Chinese market for Indian goods,
43:30India has both cost and quality advantage.
43:33And I want to mention specifics.
43:36Basmati, for example, or even non-basmati rice,
43:39spices, tea, coffee, mangoes, grapes, chilies, marine products, fish and seafood,
43:46processed food, generic medicines.
43:48There are many.
43:49They're doing extremely well in Europe and the United States.
43:52But then there is this China wall which blocks access to the Chinese markets.
43:59Well, I think that China, of course, is the world's largest manufacturer by far.
44:06Almost all, a lot of products under the sun is now making China
44:10or have China embedded in it.
44:13Now, there is both a strength and a fresh point.
44:19Because if China is embedded in so many different products,
44:23and, of course, that would affect the jobs in other countries,
44:28but also, for example, the AV cars, the EV cars, electric vehicles,
44:34are now decimating the industries, for example, in Europe and in other countries.
44:43While countries that China's competitiveness is, of course, beyond question,
44:50but then there's a problem there.
44:52And then there seems to be a movement towards establishing production of, for example,
45:00the EV cars in host countries, creating jobs on the ground and paying local taxes.
45:07I think this model is likely to have traction.
45:10And even President Trump, only about yesterday or today,
45:16did mention that Chinese investments in terms of locating some of the Chinese production of cars,
45:26for example, in the United States, would be welcome.
45:29So this is one model where both countries can work on.
45:33But greater access for Indian goods to Chinese markets in a structured manner, sir.
45:40But also expanding the export of Indian products to China?
45:41Yes.
45:42Yes.
45:43Specifically.
45:44And all this could be discussed.
45:46And my point is that at the end of the day, if both sides remain aloof because of this deep
45:53-seated mistrust,
45:54and the relationship will never, never improve.
45:58But you will pick on some easy, low-lying fruits, and both sides work on it.
46:02And then more areas where both sides can cooperate.
46:10You know, like General Narasimhan said, it takes two to tango, to build trust.
46:16You know, China has great access to Indian markets, Chinese products.
46:20It's the Indian products, General, that need greater access to the Chinese market.
46:24You know, while we hear words both from Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping,
46:30General, do you see forward movement on addressing trade imbalance, for example?
46:33And it's a structured trade imbalance, General Narasimhan.
46:37You see, sorry, Mr. Leung, you want to go?
46:42No, General Narasimhan.
46:44Okay.
46:45Two points.
46:46One is, of course, you know, we allowed the Chinese to come in very early in our opening up.
46:51Like, for example, Huawei has been here for almost 20, 25 years.
46:54But at the peak of their operations, they were only employing about 6,000 to 8,000 people.
46:58Which means most of the items are coming in from China.
47:03Only the value addition in India is minimal.
47:05It just gets assembled and then sold here.
47:08And whatever profits, etc., goes back to China.
47:11So it doesn't really help the Indian trade and industry in any way in terms of either technology transfer or
47:18manufacturing, etc., etc.
47:19In comparison, if you look at Samsung, if you look at iPhone, I mean, Apple, look at the number of
47:27people they were employed.
47:28Look at the value addition that is taking place here.
47:30So these are two different models.
47:33So while we can say that, you know, we want FDA, etc., from China to come in, which is fine.
47:38In the last 25 years, we have got $2.52 million as investment from China, which is not really very,
47:44very high in any way or any other.
47:46That is before Pest Note 3 came into existence, okay?
47:50So my problem is this.
47:52If there's a genuine interest in actually improving this trade relationship and reducing the trade imbalance, etc.,
47:58if there is a genuine way of mutually collaborating and cooperating in helping India and mutually getting help by China,
48:08if that is the model, then it will work.
48:11But I don't think that is the model that is happening.
48:13And therefore, the problems are coming up.
48:15I think, like I mentioned earlier, while we are willing to open up, we are willing to enter into discussions
48:23on many issues,
48:24but I think it takes two to tango.
48:26And I think both the sides have to come together with an open mind.
48:30Then it will happen.
48:31I think we are more than open.
48:32Both sides need an open mind.
48:33And both sides.
48:34And given the fact, Ambassador Sikri, there are benchmarks that need to be put in place.
48:39One, peace and tranquility at the borders.
48:43Two, structured access for Indian goods to Chinese market.
48:47Your reference to, you know, to your understanding of, you know, references to cross-border terrorism or specific reference to
48:57Do you see this as a very little gift from China and expecting a lot from India?
49:05No, I think that, you know, the fact that President Xi Jinping came to India after seven years, and this
49:13is in the context of BRICS.
49:14So, I think all the red lines we have already drawn, our Prime Minister has mentioned them very, very clearly.
49:20The three mutuals he's mentioned, he spoke even today about there should be no access, you know, weaponizing, leveraging trade
49:28for, you know, their own individual benefit.
49:32He was referring to rare earth.
49:33He was referring to various technologies.
49:35So, this is there.
49:36But I am saying that President Xi Jinping coming to India was very much in the context of BRICS.
49:42China is the incoming chair of BRICS, and India is the outgoing chair.
49:47Our Prime Minister spoke yesterday about a continuity and implementing mechanism.
49:52Now, because India has done a lot in its chairmanship, we've had 350 meetings, over 30 cities covering a vast
49:59degree of areas.
50:00All the outcomes are reflected in the consensus document, the New Delhi Declaration.
50:04We must implement this.
50:07And China should not brush it aside.
50:09If China and India can work together for the betterment of BRICS, for the BRICS people to achieve what they
50:16have come, what they look forward to achieving in BRICS.
50:19You know, for example, if you look at early warning on infectious diseases, you've got the COVID experience.
50:24People want that benefit.
50:26There are very, very specific areas, the startup fund for BRICS.
50:29You know, on AI technologies, President Xi Jinping spoke about this, that they are the incoming, he mentioned some of
50:35the areas where they are looking to take it on, like AI and so on.
50:39India has its own area.
50:40So, India and China cooperate in the context of BRICS for ensuring that the BRICS example, the BRICS experiment moves
50:50ahead for the benefit of the global south.
50:52Oh, absolutely.
50:53Because should they do that, they'll be taken more seriously by the west.
50:57One last point.
50:59In the global south, China cannot expect sole dominance.
51:03They must respect the concept of multipolarity that India has always been speaking about.
51:08This is an essential part of India's strategic autonomy in our foreign policy.
51:11And we are going to insist on the multipolarity.
51:14It cannot be that China will dominate BRICS and push aside India.
51:17That should not happen.
51:18That's going to be a very crucial test.
51:20In addition to all the other points about the border, and India has said very clearly that we want peace
51:25and tranquility.
51:26This is the sin qua non of the future relationship.
51:28It's the red line for us.
51:29All those issues are very much there about leveraging of trade.
51:32And we'll be tracking that story very, very closely.
51:36The point that you make, multipolarity.
51:38Andrew K.P. Leung, it is said that China does not believe that two tigers can exist in one forest
51:45or two swords in one scabbard.
51:47But that is the reality of Asia.
51:50Is China willing to come to terms with such a reality?
51:54Because from Beijing's perspective, how important is a stable relationship with India at a time even when China is facing
52:00growing geopolitical and trade tensions with the west?
52:03And for BRICS, India and China need to work in tandem for Global South.
52:09Well, I'd like to borrow my favorite example, which is that if a panda, a small panda, of course, obviously
52:18poses no threat.
52:21But if the panda grows to be a million ton panda, even though by nature it's benign, that is seen
52:27as a threat.
52:28The fact remains that China's economy is bigger than the rest of the original five BRICS countries put together.
52:37It's more than four times that's the size of India.
52:40And then if you add up all the BRICS other original five members, China's economy is bigger.
52:47So this is a fact of life.
52:49But I think that other countries are also understandable in seeing China as a threat.
52:57No, sir. I respectfully disagree.
52:58But I think that these kind of questions should be set aside.
53:01Whether a big power or a small power, they're all equal powers in BRICS.
53:05Can you please not interrupt, please?
53:07Now, let me finish.
53:09Otherwise, I'll never make my point clear.
53:12As a host, then please respect your guests.
53:14I respect my guests, but I have to let you know that everyone is equal.
53:19Please let me finish.
53:20I think there's some fruitful issues that both countries can work on.
53:25There is in the Joint Declaration about alternative payment systems.
53:32And that's where China is very intent to push ahead.
53:36Because there is no reason why, for example, in the Middle East, the Arab countries selling oil to China, China
53:44sells manufactured products to the Arabs.
53:46Why should they use the U.S. dollar?
53:49The dominance of the U.S. dollar takes back to the era of the so-called petrodollar.
53:55Sir, with due respect, you've made your point, but the U.S. dollar cannot be replaced by the R&B.
54:01And that is something that even BRICS has to guard against.
54:04The last 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show, China may be a bigger economy, but
54:09that does not mean China has two votes.
54:11Every BRICS member has the same one.
54:13Vote, Ambassador Sikri.
54:15Yes, I want to also make a point.
54:17Yes, China does have a huge economy, and there's no doubt about it, as far as the per capita income,
54:23as far as the output, the trillions of dollars difference between India and China is there.
54:27But let's not forget that, according to the latest calculation, that China's economy is today on the downward slide.
54:33As Dan Wang in his recent book has said that whereas in 2021, China was 76% of the American
54:40economy, in 2026, this figure has come down to 64%.
54:44So, I mean, I think the pride about China being the biggest economy and remaining the biggest economy should also
54:50lead to respect for what other countries are doing, and that there has to be a place for growth of
54:57everybody.
54:57If China thinks that because of its large economy, it should have the unique position to dictate to other countries,
55:04it hasn't worked.
55:04That is why the BRI, the Belt and Road Initiative of China, fell flat in many countries because they found
55:13themselves going deeper in debt.
55:15You know, this is a story that we need to discuss at greater length in the days and weeks ahead.
55:22I have, unfortunately, run out of time on this part of the show, but this is something that shows you,
55:28while it's a relationship that may be moving in the right direction,
55:32there are many pitfalls that you have to guard against and continue to keep India first.
55:39Thank you very much for joining me on this special broadcast.
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