- 6 weeks ago
In this edition of Democratic Newsroom, editors and journalists evaluate India's recent 7.8% GDP growth figures, analyzing official statistical methodology alongside ground-level economic conditions.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're watching Democratic Newsroom. I'm Akshita Nandakopal.
00:04As always, we've lined up one of the hot topics of the week to discuss with, of course, all of
00:10the top editors of our newsroom. So what are we discussing this week? Well, everyone's been
00:15talking about two numbers, essentially. GDP growth figures that came out earlier this week,
00:21released by the government at a robust 7.8 percent. You've got the Prime Minister and
00:26several ministers hailing this, saying this is India's moment, India's growth story highlighted
00:31by its GDP figures. But then you had some critics questioning the methodology and suggesting
00:38you had S.E. Garg, of course, setting the cat among the pigeons by suggesting that it's
00:42not 7.6 percent, it's not 7.8 percent, it's 2.6 percent. And that's where this entire debate
00:48came up on whether India is growing at 7.8 percent or is that wishful thinking? Are the
00:55numbers real or fudge? Joining me, we've got Rajdeep Sardesai, Raj Shankappa, Mariya Shaqeel
01:00to my left, Gaurav Savad and Siddharth, Zirabhi to my right, Siddharth, already busy taking
01:05down nerds. The right and the left. If you win, I didn't say that. If you win, I'm right
01:10in the center. Who's left? Okay. Look, I first think we have to change GDP to what I call
01:18a GTD. Gross Trust Deficit. Gross Trust Deficit. And I'll give you three reasons why this is
01:26happening. First, likely or not, there is an opaqueness in the way this government has
01:31functioned. Not just two people over the last 12 years. NDA sometimes I half jokingly say
01:36equals no data available. COVID was a classic example. Government said 4 lakh people dead.
01:41WHO said 40 lakh people dead. You ask the government about PMK's fund, sorry, no data available.
01:46It's a private trust. We cannot tell you what's the status of PMK's fund. On different
01:51parameters, particularly for COVID, how many migrants, you don't get data. And because
01:56the methodology has constantly been revised, even very, very eminent economists have from
02:02time to time raised question marks. Not just me. IMF gave us a C grade when it comes to our
02:08data collection and national accounting. So opaqueness. Opaqueness is marked by another O on
02:12the other side. Obstructionist opposition. So the reflex, reaction of the opposition, the
02:17moment any number is thrown out, this number is not true. Cannot be possible. We know better
02:23than you do. They don't debate the government statistic to statistic. The debate then goes
02:29into political rhetoric. And you see it through your political lens. So you have an obstructionist
02:33opposition and an opaque government. And therefore, rather than have statistical arguments based
02:38on hard numbers, rhetoric takes over. And I would say the third factor, whether we like
02:44it or not, we are in a hyper-polarized environment. This democratic newsroom sadly sometimes reflects
02:49that, where it is impossible to build consensus on anything at the moment, including numbers
02:56that we put out. So let me say this. And this is my final point. And I think this is
03:02something
03:02that we should all consider. Just because data is released by the government doesn't mean
03:07it is sacred.
03:08So you don't believe it. That is the old way of looking at that.
03:10No, no. So you don't believe the GDP number?
03:12No, no. In any of my points have I said I am not an expert. I know my limitations. I
03:18studied
03:19a BA in economics. I don't know how I got the degree. But my limited point, I am not an
03:23expert. I look at what experts say. And there are experts on both sides. In fact, the joke
03:28is you get two economists in a room, you get three opinions. Right? There are different views.
03:32And I think we should be humble enough. But I am saying government data is not sacred.
03:38You know what is sacred? Something called truth. Find the truth. Go beyond the data. Just
03:43don't look at GDP numbers. Look at employment. Look at other numbers. Look at wage increase.
03:47Let us be journalistic about it. Let economists do their battles. But the nature, just because
03:55I question your number, it doesn't make me anti-national. Please stop that. You know, targeting
04:00some former finance secretary, questioning his motives. All of this must stop. That's
04:05why I said, please replace Akshita GDP with gross trust deficit. We have a gross trust deficit
04:12in this country. You know, Akshita, permit me to comment before Siddharth Zarabi comes in.
04:17Now we have our expert economist taking over. So this is where, you know, where is trust lacking?
04:22Three minutes into the show. Three minutes into the show. So three minutes, Rajdeep Sardai
04:27speaks uninterrupted. I am not saying. Were there facts in what he said? Let me present
04:31some facts. Since journalists are supposed to present facts and not build a narrative. Right?
04:37What was the narrative built here? See, he doesn't even let you speak 30 seconds.
04:42Such is the insecurity. Okay, go ahead. No, no, no. Come on, come on. Let me just come
04:46purely on facts. The same IMF, the same World Bank, it projects India as the fastest growing
04:54major economy. Last check, IMF and World Bank are not headquartered at Nagpur unless Rajdeep
05:01will challenge even that. And last check, last check, Kristalina Georgieva and Ajay Banga
05:13are not Godi. But this is the data. This is what comes out of IMF and World Bank. India's
05:19fastest growing large economy. Point one. Let's go on facts, pure facts. This is what Prime Minister
05:26Narendra Modi actually describes as that Dimagi Naksal Mansikta that you create distrust
05:32with everything. Trust nothing. So, for example, when CA came, remember when Citizenship Amendment
05:36Act came, people said Muslims will lose their citizenship. Six years down the line, has a
05:41single Muslim lost his citizenship because of CA? Not wanted. But let's go purely by facts.
05:47Passenger vehicles posted its highest ever Q1 sales, highest ever in financial year 26, 27,
05:551.27 million units, 25.9% growth over Q1 of 2025-26. Facts, cars are sold more. What does
06:05this mean?
06:05More money is spending. Point one. Point two, vehicle export. Passenger vehicles saw highest ever export in
06:12Q1 26, 27, 2.2 lakh units registered, growth of 8.8% over Q1 of the previous year. Commercial
06:20vehicles,
06:26let me anyway come to commercial vehicles. Q1 20, 26, 27, commercial vehicles posted highest ever
06:33sale with 2.65 lakh units, posting a growth of 18.3% compared to Q1 of the previous year.
06:40Not my data.
06:41Where did this data come from? Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers. Do you want me to move on
06:46to more data so that we argue on facts and not narrative building? So Automobile is going to
06:51decide whether this country is moving right? Okay, so it's one, it's one. No, no, I'm glad you said so.
06:56Let's not cherry pick. I'm glad you said so. Okay, okay. Let's not pick up, let's not pick up just
07:00Automobile.
07:01Let's move to GST. Who is denying that we are not going? Let me come to GST. Sir, let me
07:06come to GST.
07:06You are an economist now. Let me move to GST. Sir, we are studying today. Okay, okay, let's not get
07:12personal,
07:13please. No personal. Okay, okay. No personal, no personal. GST. Okay. Okay, GST. No, Gaurav,
07:17I'll give you another term, please. August 20, 26. See, 3 minutes. I've given you 3 minutes.
07:21I've given you 3 minutes. Gaurav, come on. 3 minutes. 3 minutes I've given you. I'm not cherry picking you.
07:25I'm coming now. Look, India is growing, but are Indians feeling the growth? If it is about lived experiences,
07:34is our lifestyle improving? Is the job aspiration and job quality improving? All that has to be answered.
07:42I'm not an economist, but I will look at some numbers. For the last three years, the annual GDP average
07:50of last
07:50three years stands at 7.3%. So a number of 7.8 is great, but 7 is something that the
07:56RBI had said or projected.
07:58So I'm not going to go with whether that number is wrong, methodology is wrong. I'll not touch that.
08:04But I'm going to go with some other facts. The MOTN survey, which was done by India today,
08:09asked a question. Are the benefits of India's economic growth reaching the common people?
08:1552% Akshita said, no, only the rich benefits, benefit, and 8, that is the number of,
08:23know only the rich benefit and not at all. That is the number. Then another question that was asked
08:28in the MOTN, the most recent one, was who has benefited the most from NDA government's economic
08:35policies? 56% say big businesses. So the quality of data, yes, it's right. India is growing. We are the
08:43last, you know, fastest growing large economy. We should celebrate. But Neeti Ayo's latest job report
08:50also is highlighting that little India and rich India or poor India, the haves and the have-nots,
08:57the growing gap. So they've given the unemployment figures, which are very high. Yes, only 8.25%
09:04of graduates work in jobs matched to their qualification, which is mass underemployment.
09:0913% unemployment among graduates, spiking to 20.4% among graduate women. Over 2 crore of India's,
09:173.4 crore undergraduates are in generic BA, BSE. The question really is the quality of jobs.
09:24What I'm highlighting here is that the definition of growth is very about us.
09:31Of course, we have to feel the growth. Are we feeling the growth is the larger question.
09:35Siddharth, do you want to come in? You've been listening very patiently. He's the expert.
09:39I agree. It is unfortunate that every matter under the sun and the moon has been brought in,
09:46but basic economics has not been brought in. We are discussing the whole world. The problem is in
09:52the Strait of Hormuz, but we have gone to Babal Mandab. It's our choice. It is a democratic debate.
09:59GDP actually, in the context of this program, should stand for great domestic progress.
10:04If you take where India was at the time of reforms to where we have taken it, all prime ministers,
10:12all governments, regardless of political affiliation ideology, have stuck to these numbers.
10:18Economics 101. GDP is not a manufactured number. It is an estimate. It is re-estimated five times during
10:27every year. All the people who have questioned it, and I am referring to those who have been in
10:34government, not outside government. It is our job to doubt and ask questions. Those people,
10:40and whether they were called certain names, Gaurav, I will leave that aside, sat in, did press conferences,
10:47celebrated in the finance ministry, same base year revisions. Let me give you just two data points.
10:53That is why the duplicity and the falsehood and bringing in politics, personal ideology into a
11:00serious matter. Debate jobs. Debate wage growth. Debate the lack of opportunity. Debate what is
11:05happening to the IT sector. Debate the lack of, you know, AI progress. So is it personal growth?
11:11Obviously it is. I'll just give you two data points. Let the data speak.
11:14Agenda. Base year 2012. Financial year, what is called 2011-12. January 2015 revision, 6.9% for FY14
11:23versus 4.7%. FY13, 5.1% versus 4.5%. Did anyone object? How many press conferences did we cover
11:35as
11:35finance ministry reporters? Base year 2005, who was in government? I will not take names because I don't
11:41want to politicize and polarize the debate. Who was in government then? FY7 revision,
11:48taken to 9.2%. Celebrately headlines, above-asked headlines. Was that question?
11:55You are calling the chief statistician of India names without even knowing basics?
12:01You are comparing apples and oranges current year with constant prices? Exactly.
12:05You are going on TV. It is unfortunate that we cannot… I also faced the same question. I asked
12:12a humble question. So what is the real number? A number was taken. I had two economists on the panel.
12:18I tried to take that question to them. They didn't even want to respond because it was beneath a response.
12:24It is economic illiteracy. I have no other way of describing it. Debate fundamentals. Debate whether
12:34the government has managed this crisis very well or not. But to say car sales data does not represent
12:44economic output? I mean, if you are going to argue on such baseless thoughts, then there is no argument.
12:53I will rest my case here. Okay. Before we get into all of the questions
12:57over consumption, et cetera, that Maria put up, Raj, what do you make of what Siddharth has said? He says,
13:01you know, to question the methodology is bizarre. It is motivated.
13:05Yeah. I look at it, there are two kinds of debates when you look at GDP. One is a technical
13:10debate,
13:11which is the numbers debate. 7.6, 7.8, who are the figures? On that debate, I said transparency should
13:18be
13:18the number one thing that should be there. If the government has made a statement, it owes it to the
13:23public, whoever that public is, to explain how they arrived at that. And those stats are not, you know,
13:29personal to the government. These are public statistics. They must be made public. And that
13:33should be debated in the forum and argued out and put out for everyone to see. The second aspect is
13:40the
13:40substantive aspect in my sense. And I bring Maria into this in her thought in terms of the fact that
13:47you need to look at it in terms of how does it help the common person. A GDP growth of
13:527.8 percent,
13:53how does it translate to someone like you, me or anybody else? Yeah. Okay. So let's, if we are using
13:59various terminologies, let's say I'd rather like a citizen's progress report, a CPR. And in that CPR,
14:08one of the things I'd look at is jobs. How much in this quarter has jobs grown? What is the
14:14exact number? And the
14:15breakup? Who's got the jobs? Second, let's not forget that GDP is an aggregate. So if income has
14:21gone up, doesn't mean that, say, someone, a big industrialist income goes up and my income stays
14:27at 15,000. I don't benefit from that. Though the economy might show that there is the growth in
14:32income. So we need to know about equitable growth of income. So if you get down to some of the
14:37you and
14:37me stuff that we look at, inflation, where does it stand? As she was saying, it's a lived experience.
14:41You tell everybody inflation is 5 percent, everybody will say, hey, I go and buy sugar,
14:46today it's 15 percent more. I go and buy milk, vegetables, everything is more. Don't tell me
14:50about inflation. Ask about jobs. Any one of us who have children will tell you that it is damn
14:56difficult to get a job. There are not enough going, particularly for educated graduates.
15:00Why should people do only B.A. degree? Skill up, skill up.
15:05Let me just finish. I didn't interrupt you. The world belongs to skilling.
15:08Let Raj finish. I'm just saying that there are various indices for the common
15:13person, if we'd like to call it, or middle class, or whatever it is. It is time the government got
15:18off. Continue with your GDP. That's great for economists and, you know, all the various numbers,
15:23auto consumption. All these are very, very important figures for it. But also simultaneously bring
15:28out a report, a quarterly report, if you'd like to bring a GDP quarterly report, on all the key
15:33indices of interest to the common person in terms of jobs, income, inflation, and everything.
15:39If I may, when you talk about it, you've got to just one. Just two qualitative points.
15:43Jobs, wages, consumption keeps coming up.
15:45I will answer that. Raj, with due respect, pardon me for saying this, that when we focus only on
15:53organized sector jobs, we also reveal a certain kind of bias towards the organized
15:58economy. In the same quarter under review Raj Jengapa, the data says that our subsidy bill
16:04is going up 35%. There is a very large set of people in India. You can debate the numbers.
16:13I would put them at at least 800 million, those who still qualify to receive food grains every month.
16:20800 million people in this country are receiving various kinds of subsidies.
16:27In an economy of this nature, there will obviously be dichotomy. There will be case shape and post-COVID that
16:35got accentuated.
16:36However, it is fundamentally wrong only to look at it from organized sector jobs.
16:43Those who are receiving subsidies may not be in the job market, but they are at least not dying out
16:48of
16:48poverty. And in this very same quarter, there has been a 35% increase in subsidy. Ultimately,
16:55the taxpayer will pay. That bill will come at the end of the year.
16:58Siddharth, if you look at it that way, when you have 800 million people on the dole in some sense,
17:03on welfare, that itself speaks about the state of the economy.
17:06No, it speaks about the state of population.
17:09No, no, let's not divide. It speaks about the lack of population control failure.
17:13You take a look at the employment figures itself. And when you say there's a high number of employment,
17:18a large amount of that is self-employed, agriculture increase, not necessarily paying ones. So,
17:24when you disaggregate these, I'm not just talking of the graduates and others with the
17:28CJP and others fought for in the NEET exams. If you take a look across employment itself
17:35and income growth, these are the two things that concern us directly. You will find that
17:39as you disaggregate these, they don't look that impressive. And that is why I think
17:44some of the engines, like you say, manufacturing is starting to fire. I'd be very interested in that
17:48because you need a lot more of that happening. If services can absorb a lot, that's what I think
17:53you need to look at. If I may, you know, how is our life improving? If people are buying more
17:57two-wheelers, if people are buying more cars, if people are buying more luxury cars,
18:01and cars is one sector, you don't buy a car unless you have surplus funds and bigger cars.
18:06But just to answer that, don't look at cars. Take a look at housing.
18:10Take a look at commercial vehicles.
18:13No, one at a time, one at a time.
18:15One at a time, one at a time, one at a time.
18:17Akshita, I'm just requesting, let's not conflate price rise and bring it into a debate around whether
18:23our output data is being fudged or if there is jugglery. I think it is a most, most unfortunate
18:31thing to do that because the statistical exercise in this country is not done by political activists.
18:38Please do not bring in political activists. They are all serious people. And these numbers are not
18:44manufactured. They are estimates. And these estimates have been followed by every single
18:50prime minister, every cabinet, every finance minister in this country.
18:55What does more GST collection mean? No, no, one second.
18:58For the benefit of the uninitiated, what does more GST collection mean? What do more UPI transactions mean?
19:03And because the subject is so technical and because GST or other elements of data,
19:10including e-Wahand data, are now being brought in. In fact, I'll just end by one line, Akshita.
19:15Yeah. Our digital growth has meant that the quality of data that is being accessed and the
19:23time lag that has been reduced is phenomenal. Many years ago, as a reporter, data would come on fax,
19:31fax machine would run out of fax paper roll, data would not get updated. The digital dividend in India
19:37has meant that our data is even better. So please stop questioning the quality of data.
19:42Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, just let Rajdeep come and please.
19:45The argument, my friend, Mr. Zarabi, you see, this is the problem. You see, we live in a,
19:50what I call a 50-50 country. If you listen to Mr. Zarabi and Mr. Savant, you believe the glass
19:54is half full.
19:55No, he says GDP is great domestic progress.
19:57No, no, one minute, one minute, one minute. Let me complete. Within 10 seconds, you know, you're doing,
20:01what classic... You're doing a Rajdeep on Rajdeep. Oh my God. No, no, come on. No, no, no, no.
20:07Look, the fact is, at the moment, in the light of the global headwinds that have taken place in,
20:13because of the war in the Gulf, the oil shocks, the state of hormones supply side issues, to have,
20:19it is very clear that the Indian economy has proven far more resilient than many of the so-called
20:24doomsdayers have suggested, including prominent economists who suggested doomsday for the Indian
20:28economy. There is absolutely no doubt. We can quibble about the numbers. We can question the
20:33numbers. I believe we should interrogate the numbers. I don't agree with Siddharth when he says
20:37that the quality of numbers is perfect. That's not the way to look at it. You must question the numbers.
20:41I never... I didn't use that word. I didn't say perfect. You use the word.
20:45I said that data methodology is not under question. No, I'm not.
20:49You can debate your understanding of it. No, no. So, therefore, the lived experiences are just as
20:54important when the NITI. But that is in present. No, no. One minute. One minute, sir.
20:57The data is estimated with a lag. Sir, sir, sir, the point is that my, my limited point,
21:02therefore, is that you can cherry pick the data based on what you, how you want to project it.
21:08I believe overall picture economy very resilient. There's absolutely no doubt in that. And that has
21:13built up over the last 25 years. It didn't start in, in 23, 24 or 25, 26. It's been building
21:19up over the
21:20last from 92 to today. There have been setbacks, but the economy's overall trajectory has been positive.
21:27However, there will be concerns. There remain concerns over private investment. There remain
21:31concerns over, over unemployment. There remain concerns over, over incomes. These are legitimate
21:39concerns. And to reflect them, to reflect those concerns is not to diss the fact that the Indian
21:45economy is resilient. My problem is simply this. We are so, this is the point I made. We are so
21:50hyper-polarized that we are unable to have a rational reasoned argument, even which looks at the
21:56challenges that lie ahead and the successes of the economy.
22:00But, Rajiv, this is the moment you say something,
22:07these questions are unrelated to the statistical exercise.
22:11No, no, no. Why? But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, at the end
22:16of the day, at the end of the day, the person who said it is 2.6 percent has already
22:20revised it.
22:20No, no, no. I think we need this clarification on it.
22:22But why should the, why should one thing even say 7.8?
22:25No, no. He just clarified this.
22:27No, no. Why reduce the debate to Mr. SC Ghar Galon? That's a bad way to do it.
22:30No, no. Look at, actually, millions of Indian citizens' lived experiences,
22:34the resilience of the Indian economy, the sectors that are growing, the sectors that are lying behind.
22:38Why has private investment not grown to the extent it should have? Why has manufacturing not grown to the extent
22:45it should have over a larger period?
22:47No, I think, I think the debate is not limited to Mr. SC Ghar Gal in any way. I think
22:52it's a larger question.
22:53No, it has become, unfortunately. No, no.
22:53No, the larger question is about whether GDP numbers reflect what's happening in the economy.
22:57And it is some people who are constantly trying to create this doomsday image.
22:59If it is about 7.8 percent, the number in the previous quarter was 8.6 percent.
23:04The question is, why didn't we raise this question and this entire debate happened around the GDP base and the
23:13questions that are being raised?
23:14Because nobody read it. There are five revisions. The methodology was first released in the first quarter of F526.
23:21So, the manner in which it has been raised, raises the question on the entire functioning of the Indian economy,
23:28which certainly is problematic.
23:30Because it's one thing to say, to raise the question on the quality of jobs, on quality of, you know,
23:36the increase, unemployment of graduates.
23:39You know, when we come to this issue of unemployment, I mean, I mean, I just want to make a
23:43thing.
23:43One at a time. One at a time.
23:44And then we come up with the numbers of 2.6 percent and then change it to 5.6 percent.
23:49The problem is the reaction from both the sides, Akshita, which is very problematic.
23:52On one hand, there is the former finance secretary who's coming up with this number and then revising it within
23:57a matter of 24 hours.
23:58On the other hand, our set of people who are completely dismissing him and calling him disgruntled.
24:04Both sides, there is a problem in this approach.
24:06I wouldn't demolish the GDP, right?
24:09And wouldn't demolish the figures that the government has put.
24:12All credit to them if they've done that.
24:15But I wouldn't make it the sole measure of success of an economy.
24:18They shouldn't be taking a victory lap because of it, because this is the first quarter and there's a lot.
24:22No, it's a jadding.
24:23Hang on. One second. Let me just finish the point.
24:25Second is, if you take a look at, what you need is also a smaller dashboard that goes along with
24:31all these big numbers that they put in,
24:33which simple things that we asked for earlier, per capita income, jobs, inflation.
24:39All these are the numbers.
24:42No, no, let me just finish.
24:44Yes, sir.
24:44One of the things, if your numbers, like you said, were so good, right, this is great data.
24:49I'm sorry, there's a lot of data poverty in this country.
24:51We have not updated, despite the fact we have one of the best UPI systems in the world.
24:56We still don't have update real-time data that's going on.
25:00Take a look at sugar, which has gone up.
25:03What was the issue?
25:03We had an estimate that came in 2025 that said we will have excess sugar production.
25:10We do not revise that till April, May.
25:12And when we do suddenly realize there's a shortage for the first time, we start importing sugar.
25:17I mean, that is a reflection of just how bad your statistics are.
25:21So then, I know, Raj.
25:23Siddharth, the question that it comes down to is what Rajdeep said.
25:25It is nothing to do with statistics.
25:27It is, you can list questions about economic policy management.
25:31When you add surplus sugar or supposedly add, you didn't correct your figures early enough.
25:35Raj, it's a policy management question.
25:37Statistics aren't the victim here.
25:39No, no, sir.
25:40The question is also, I think that everyone's asking is about transparency of data, Siddharth.
25:44What more transparency?
25:44Which is what Rajdeep started with.
25:45It's a 30-page release.
25:46Gross trust deficit.
25:47Who has read those 30 pages?
25:48People didn't read this 10-page release.
25:52You had people who were supposed to defend it coming without reading this fact.
25:56I am saying these are estimates.
25:58They are revised five times a year.
26:00I have given you a small sample of revisions in the past.
26:03I can take half an hour and take you through other revisions.
26:06During Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's time.
26:08During Shri P.V. Narsimha Rahul's time.
26:10During Batal Bihari Vajpayeeji's time.
26:13During other times.
26:14These revisions in the last 12 years are base year revisions.
26:17So then, Rajdeep.
26:18We have thrown out typewriters and included mobile phones.
26:21The results come out.
26:23How can you compare two separate set of data in corporate accounts?
26:28Just one quick example.
26:29There are accounting standards.
26:31Indian companies follow Indian accounting standard.
26:35There is a US generally accepted principle of accounts, US GAAP.
26:39But if you cast the same company's accounts under those two principles, there will be a
26:43different set of numbers that will come out.
26:45Because US GAAP allows for certain inclusions, Indian AS doesn't.
26:51We are…
26:52Statistical illiteracy cannot be brought into a subject which is serious, Raj.
26:57You asked about social indicators.
27:00I'm sorry.
27:01But if you take a look at sugar statistics, if you didn't have that every month, which
27:06is one of the largest things that we consume…
27:09Sir, it's a question of economic management or mismanagement.
27:12You are basically on some statistics.
27:13The data that we are getting on the wholesale price index based on…
27:17There is no variation.
27:18No, no.
27:18What is the variation?
27:19No, no.
27:19What the government says is inflation.
27:22What the opposition claims is the inflation, the real numbers of inflation.
27:26There are two different…
27:27No, no.
27:27Because you are changing your basket from time to time.
27:29No, there is no change in basket.
27:31No, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, this is…
27:32No, please, with due respect, this is complete, you know…
27:36So, are you telling me the inflation numbers…
27:38No, WTI base years are revised.
27:40Please hold on.
27:41Wholesale prices are revised.
27:42Consumer prices always tend to be higher than WPI.
27:46If it is reversed, then it is a different indicator of the economy.
27:49Indian statistics in inflation have been updated.
27:52I was the one who said on this show that in 2007-08, the fax machine in the ministry
27:57was not working.
27:58Inflation data was not updated for three months.
28:00I broke that story under my byline.
28:02I know this subject better than most.
28:04I am asking you a simple question.
28:05Do not conflate…
28:06Do not conflate…
28:06I am asking you a simple question.
28:08Okay.
28:08…with questions that you might have about the quality of growth.
28:12Quality of growth, income disparity, wage alignment, opportunities are different subjects.
28:19Do not claim a conspiracy in data collection and methodology.
28:23We are as good as the best in the world.
28:26Okay.
28:26Why don't you question China…
28:27Why don't you question China…
28:29I think my friend…
28:29I agree with that.
28:30I see…
28:30You see, my friend Siddharth Zarabi is actually hitting the nub of the problem by saying it.
28:36What has happened is that there are…
28:39You can look at the glass half full and he will present to you the glass half full presentation here.
28:45Without…
28:45Statistically, the glass is full.
28:47I disagree.
28:48Not half full.
28:49I disagree.
28:50I disagree.
28:50You think it's…
28:51That is your right.
28:52I disagree.
28:52I disagree.
28:53Why is it more than full?
28:55Methodology wise, the glass is brimming over.
28:57Okay.
28:58And you know, when you talk about joblessness and it is a fact, there is joblessness, but
29:02it is equally big a fact that you have so many growth…
29:06No, Gaurav, is gig economy part of a job or not?
29:08Let's start a debate.
29:09No, no.
29:10Are gig economy workers employed or not?
29:12We don't have time for a new debate.
29:12Absolutely.
29:13And we should have a separate…
29:15We should have adequate selling.
29:17We've had these…
29:18If I may, electronics, semiconductors, advanced manufacturing, the skilled…
29:24I agree with you, Siddharth.
29:28The glass is brimming over.
29:30Is it empty to you, Raghuram Rajan says 20,000 rupees…
29:37No, no.
29:38He says, Raghuram Rajan questions 20,000 rupees in manufacturing.
29:41Should the person sell his body and not get 20,000?
29:45So, let's come back.
29:46I don't have time.
29:47I don't have time.
29:48You ask me…
29:49Okay, okay.
29:50One second.
29:51Hold on.
29:52You see, this is the problem.
29:53I said the numbers show the Indian economy is remarkably resilient.
29:58Now, is that saying the glass is half empty?
30:00I am saying technically the glass is over the brim.
30:03Okay, okay.
30:04That's your view.
30:05Okay.
30:06That's your view.
30:07No.
30:07I tried getting closing comments.
30:09One second.
30:10This is my new experience.
30:10I tried getting closing comments.
30:12I tried getting closing comments.
30:13Come on.
30:13Come on.
30:14Siddharth.
30:14My closing comment is very simple.
30:15I'm sorry, Raj.
30:16I don't have time for closing comments.
30:17I would not go that far to accuse the government of manipulating figures or statistical jugglery.
30:23I think we need to look, as I said earlier…
30:25On the quality.
30:25On the quality one and get into the aggregates of this.
30:29Okay, okay.
30:29In terms of GDP per capita income, these are things that we need to do.
30:33I apologize.
30:33No time for closing comments because you saw how heated it got.
30:35Thanks very much for joining us.
30:37Next week, we'll join you with another edition of Democratic Newsroom.
30:40Thank you for joining.