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00:04Hello and welcome to Copper Independent, the Independent's football podcast on the morning
00:08after the transfer-induced chaos of the night before. I'm Kieran Jackson and I'm joined
00:13by Chief Football Writer Miguel Delaney and Senior Football Correspondent Richard Jolly
00:17as we look to unpick the transfer deadline day and a record £3.48 billion spent by Premier
00:23League clubs this summer. I think it's probably worth doing a very quick rundown, guys, of
00:28the biggest deals of the day and also just the experience of covering a transfer deadline
00:33day from a journalist point of view. So the quick rundown is Enzo Fernandes finally got his move to
00:38Manchester City for a British transfer record or joint British transfer record £125 million
00:43from Chelsea. That's level with Isak to Liverpool last year with Iliam and I also moving to City
00:49from Everton. It felt like City were certainly the big winners of the day. And then Chelsea's bid to
00:53bring in a replacement in Monaco's Lamine Kamara was called off by the club at the 11th hour as a
00:58result of following Balogun's on-off transfer to Everton and in the end the player decided
01:02against the move. There are a few other bits of drama to close out the day as well. But
01:07Miguel, to sum up your day, I don't think I've quite ever seen you enrich so active on our
01:11desk's WhatsApp chat. I mean, how frenetic was it for you?
01:15I've never seen a deadline day like that. I suppose basically a mess or maybe a morass of details,
01:25deals, theatre, absurdity. And the thing about particularly recent windows in the transfer
01:32league is actually the details and the completed deals and even some of the figures, they almost
01:40don't resonate as much as kind of some of the stories or the chaos that goes on. And obviously
01:45this one, this particular deadline day window had a lot. You've already referenced a few,
01:52particularly what happened to Balogun and Kamara and like an unexpected late turnarounds like that.
01:58But that's also in a context, I think, where the figures themselves, the deals, the transfers made less
02:05sense than ever. Like, I mean, you know, there's already been so much reference to how more money
02:09than ever before has been has been spent in kind of breathless terms or well over treated the previous
02:14record of 3.14 billion. And yeah, for all that money spent, I can't remember as many clubs who are
02:19unhappy, so much fury, so much business still to do. So yeah, while kind of the deals usually kind of
02:29pale
02:29next to kind of the theatre of it all, that's accentuated this window, I think, by just like what
02:36this business represents. And like, there's a lot bigger discussions you could have here about kind
02:40of the football business, where it's going. I'm doing a few bigger pieces on this myself today and over
02:45the next few days. But like I'm talking to a lot of executives, the phrase a lot of them use,
02:51and I
02:51reference this in my piece, my analysis today, it was a market where value went out the window,
02:57pun unintended. And there's a lot of reasons for that. And maybe the one that highlights it is
03:01the big deal, the record deal, the one that appropriately kind of, sorry, where the transfer
03:07record was appropriately broken on a window this big, which is Enzo Fernandes. I mean, I know Rich
03:11has got a few opinions on this. Like, whatever about his need to Enzo Maresca, and even kind of
03:18all the debate you can have about Chelsea selling, whether they, you know, could have sold earlier
03:21to get a replacement in. Is he really worth 125 million? Is he really worth being the Premier
03:26League's most expensive player? I think those questions almost sum up a lot of an experience
03:32where, yeah, a lot of money spent, little sense, less sleep.
03:35Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just to put that into some context, I think more than half of
03:39the Premier League clubs have broken their transfer record this summer. And I think it's four of
03:44the five most expensive British deals ever. So you had Anderson for 116 million, you had
03:48Rodgers for 117, you had Barcola for 123, and then it ends with Fernandes at 125. And that
03:54Fernandes deal getting over the line kind of made a bit of a mockery of Chelsea's deadline
03:58a few weeks ago. And the fact that they couldn't bring in a replacement, maybe they missed out
04:03there. I mean, Rich, what do you make of it all in the end? It was a busy, busy night
04:07up
04:07in the North West, I bet.
04:09Yeah, mainly due to two clubs, really, Manchester City and Everton, and rather more than Manchester
04:15United and Liverpool, though they were both involved in one or two things. Yeah, it was
04:21all, it was, it was all crazy. And I share a lot of Miguel's views. I thought the amount
04:27of money spent, obscene, grotesque, ludicrous, so many prices, just so far out of kilter with
04:35reality. And I don't just mean reality in terms of the normal person's experience. I mean,
04:41footballing reality, you look at the prices compared to clubs turnover, their match day
04:47revenue, their commercial and their broadcast revenue, and they just don't add up. And the
04:54only way it can carry on is if the merry-go-round carries on. And so if you're suddenly signing
05:00someone for 80 million, you can sell someone for 80 million. And a lot of clubs that has
05:05been their experience and clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City, they've brought in vast amounts
05:11of money. They've also spent vast amounts. Some of the clubs who haven't been able to spend
05:16so much are the ones who haven't been able to bring money in. And so maybe their, people
05:20are looking at them saying, why aren't they spending? And actually their net spend might
05:24be similar to some other clubs. But you think at some point, there has to be some level of
05:30sanity. And people will look at these prices and say, we're not going to pay that for that
05:34player. And yet, somehow, you know, it carried on. And even when, even when clubs looked
05:40at the market and asked for incredible numbers and didn't get them, they got big numbers,
05:46you know, PSG were asking for 145 for Barcola. They didn't get it. They got a basic of 106
05:52that could become 123. Chelsea, at one point, I think we're asking for 135 for Enzo Fernandes.
05:59They didn't get it. They got 125. I'd say that that's at least 50 million more than he's worth.
06:05Just touching on a few Rich's point there. I actually would for, there's a lot of obviously,
06:10look, Everton, they are obviously short. There's a whole lot of, although you could argue that maybe
06:15with no European football and possibly only kind of 40 to 42 games, an 18 man squad and
06:20academy players might actually be worth it. Similar, there's been a bit of criticism for
06:24Manchester United. And I wonder in the medium to long term, whether restraint in this specific
06:31window is actually the right move. Because just touching on something that Rich said there as
06:36well about how kind of the money going around, the prices and how, whether that matches with
06:42revenue or the money coming in. So I've done, I'm doing a piece on this over the next two days.
06:47You should be able to catch it by the time this podcast is out. On a lot of people in
06:52football
06:53are expressing real concern, not just the prices and the irrationality of the market,
06:57but how much of it is built on private debt. And the landmark independent football regulator state
07:05of the game report is going to come out soon. And there's a widespread expectation that will
07:09point to a concerning lack of liquidity up and down football. At which point you wonder, look,
07:17and it's funny for all, for all the headlines about big transfer fees, I know we're delving into
07:22a potential holder podcast, but for all the headlines about these transfer fees, there's an argument
07:26the most relevant headline to football on deadline day was about rising global bond yields, because
07:33that is going to have an effect on private credit. And when all this starts to crunch, football is
07:38going to feel the effects. And look, while the entire global economy is subject to this, from speaking
07:44to a lot of people, from talking to people a lot about these deals, there's a sense that football
07:48actually isn't, or a lot in football actually aren't considering the implications, or even future
07:53proofing them against it. In fact, there's almost this sense that a lot of this, a lot of this
07:57business almost reflects that clubs, a lot of clubs only seem to be thinking in the short term
08:02right now. And I think that's reflected in how some of the clubs that a few years ago, we would
08:06have been hailing as the most forward thinking, the most forensic. Well, they were among the kind of,
08:10the most prominent in doing these kind of slapdash late deals, trying to get deals over the line,
08:15and some of them for massive money.
08:16Yeah, I think it's kind of indicative on that point that you saw Brentford and Brighton not really
08:20getting involved yesterday. They'd done their deals, they'd already done their stats-based
08:24research and got it over the line. I mean, it just feels like a case in a window where
08:29clubs have never been more out of reality with the real world in terms of figures. And then also
08:33in terms of, I think a big factor has been the selling on of homegrown players. It's something
08:38we saw last year and the year before, but to an extent this year has been crazy. I mean,
08:43the lack of a homegrown player at Liverpool this season, for example, I think they're going to rely
08:46on Jadon Dans to be that one scouser in the team if he's in the squad. I mean, and also
08:51just the
08:51late madness of certain situations and transfers potentially happening, like Ait Nuri at Man City
08:57was kind of offered to Man United by his agents on loan. There's never been a move that way,
09:02I don't think, since 1999 for obvious reasons. So does it just sum up, Rich, the way in which clubs
09:09aren't really engaging with the fan base? It's just players are being sold off as commodities as
09:13opposed to actually treating them as human beings. Yeah, I think in that respect, the backlash from
09:18the Everton fans last week when the club were considering selling Harrison Armstrong was a
09:23case in point because he is the young player who's come through the youth system. He's clearly
09:29talented. I mean, I have to say, I don't know how good he will become. And maybe that was the
09:34boardroom logic of thinking where you can get 40, 45 million now for someone who is basically untried.
09:40But on the other hand, you do get that, you risk having that disconnect with the fan base. And
09:49it's not healthy. I mean, I actually quite like seeing Marcus Rashford back at Manchester United
09:54on the grounds that he's a Mancunian who's come through their youth system. And I hope it works.
09:59And I didn't like the way Reuben Amrum treated Rashford, which is not saying Rashford was entirely
10:05perfect in everything he did. But I think this treating players as commodities, as with a lot of
10:11things, the worst offenders were Chelsea when they discovered that homegrown loophole, if you see what
10:19I mean, of pure profit and which they've gone on to every summer. And even this year, you look at
10:24it
10:24again. And for instance, Tyreek George, the minute he came through the youth system and got a debut,
10:29they obviously thought we could sell him for pure profit and nearly went to, you know, went to Fulham
10:34and then he ended up going to Everton. And so too many clubs of doing that. I don't know. Interesting
10:39to see the extent to which changing from FFP to SCR, whether that fundamentally changes the need to
10:46sell it. But in a way, it actually also shows if you have a good youth system, it can be
10:51a brilliant
10:52business decision if you can, if you can sell these players and maybe it will encourage executives to
10:57invest in a youth system in that respect. I actually feel that the, the rare dissent about
11:05transfer businesses somewhere from Everton over Harrison Armstrong could end, like I know it generated
11:10a lot of headlines, but it could end up being a more significant moment than maybe people realise
11:14because it does feel like just a little bit of a kind of a first real reaction to what's going
11:19on
11:19and the kind of irrationality and the sense of kind of a lot of business that doesn't mean as much
11:26as it should. And on that, I think, look, I've argued in this podcast, I've argued in pieces of
11:31independent videos that cost control is essential in football. We've got all sorts of evidence for
11:36it going back to the 2000s. And in fact, this window arguably emphasised it because clubs left
11:41to their own devices will just spend. But there are questions about the kind of unintended
11:47consequences about the current rules. One is obviously a lot of what Rich has touched on there
11:51and the kind of, some of the incentives it creates. And I feel like they go counter to
11:57team building, especially as regards young players, academy players. Like that, that just feels wrong
12:02that this is one of the effects, even if it does come down to accounting principles. You do feel like
12:06that rules should be in effect to actually protect the promotion of young players.
12:10Then there's the, then there's the way that so many moves are made to comply with the restrictions.
12:17But even that is a bit of a consequence of just the amount of business clubs do.
12:23And like just from speaking to a lot of football executives over the past few weeks about this,
12:27especially the high prices, there is a sense that a lot of this is actually driven by
12:32a profile of owner that's been there for a long time, but is growing, which is invariably mostly
12:38a type of American capitalist owner. And just how much is almost being driven, like it feels like
12:43more deals than ever now have been done for business reasons, rather necessarily than pure
12:47football reasons. I mean, like you mentioned Brentford and Brighton there, and they, and
12:52Bournemouth arguably, stand apart because they've got these analytical models that allow them
12:57basically, I suppose, to absent themselves from the wider irrationality of the window.
13:01And like, I mean, look at Sangare, got for 41 million. Everyone must be looking at that
13:06now going, where were we on that? But from that, there's two things. How many clubs would you
13:12say conform to the classic ideas of sort of squad building this summer? Like I know like
13:18the cliche of the Ferguson one, it's taken a different dimension because it's a squad
13:21game now rather than a team game. But I mean, is it outside, outside Brentford and Brighton,
13:27who of course have to, have to adapt to clubs coming in for their players. Is it only really
13:31Arsenal actually? And hence with Arsenal, we've got the big thing where, yes, they've almost
13:35kind of, they're enduring the most acute failure, or at least our fans are because they
13:40didn't get that big star. But that big star really genuinely would have been the final
13:44piece. Outside that, I'm not, I'm not really seeing kind of like a lot of transfers to make
13:50a logical, in fact, in some cases, there's so many transfers. Like I was going through
13:54the, the Premier League's page of ins and outs. Yeah. Like this is, this is like a, you
13:58know, the, the cast list to a James Cameron film or something like that.
14:02You're scrolling, you're scrolling for a while, aren't you?
14:04Yeah. You're scrolling for ages and then you're on, and you think, how is this going to fit
14:08together? And that's compounded as well by how many of the deals were done late, or even
14:13the way, in some cases, clubs went from, yes, players that play in a similar position, but
14:17in a similar position where they do completely different things, like Gakpo and NDA being
14:21one of the obvious ones.
14:22Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just, just quickly before we get onto the winners and losers per
14:26se of the window, because we will touch on Arsenal's conclusion to the window. Just a bit,
14:31Miguel, about the experience of being a reporter on deadline day and, you know, getting briefings
14:36and statements from clubs, probably from agents, what you need to believe and what you need
14:41to kind of be a little bit mindful of. I mean, talk to me about it and how it was
14:45as an experience
14:45yesterday compared to other windows you might have had, which have been similarly busy.
14:49I think my main impression of it now is, I think I said this last year, but this year
14:55is worse. You could, there's sometimes, not moments, four to five hour spells in transfer
15:02windows where you realise you haven't actually got up and you've been on your phone for all
15:05that time. Often, like with WhatsApp open on your laptop and then kind of taking calls
15:11a lot of the time. Obviously, kind of, the transfer window has become an industry unto itself
15:17now, almost separate from football, even as it shapes it. But kind of the social media
15:23dimension, it does add, like, because even the way kind of a rumour flies, the way just
15:29noise goes around, the way, like, some journalists or accounts have become transfer specialists
15:36and don't kind of do much else in terms of football reporting. This creates a whole other
15:40wall of noise. Like, I think it creates more of a kind of an information swirl than we've
15:50ever seen before. And, like, on a day like yesterday, there's actually, like, I found
15:57something like that, in some cases, especially if you have to chase info on some deals rather
16:01than kind of necessarily coming to you, you have to kind of, I'm going to concentrate on
16:04a few, because there was just so much to take in. And I suppose we've got the, like, we're
16:09fortunate here, like, Rich is in the North, I'm in the South, or in London. So you can
16:14kind of, you know, to a certain degree, concentrate on kind of both of those clubs. But then in
16:20the case of City and Chelsea, like, there's an obvious overlap there, because one in the
16:23North and one in London.
16:24Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think I feel like you'd be taking offence, Rich, if I called
16:28you any kind of transfer guru journalist. So, but I don't think you'd like that one at
16:33all. But with, say, with Malik Fofana's deal, which eventually happened to Sunderland, it
16:36seemed he was back and forth between Sunderland and Crystal Palace about three or four times.
16:40Both clubs sent planes to France to try and get him over. I mean, if you're, if you're
16:44a specialist reporter for one of those clubs, you'd just be, you know, walking around your
16:47living room going out your mind, wouldn't you? I mean, how did you find it, particularly
16:51from an Everton point of view, because a lot was going on there?
16:53Yeah, Everton, there was just so many things, so many spinning plates. And sometimes you'd
17:00ask a question about one player and get a reply about another one. Because, you know,
17:04there are all these things happening. It wasn't just Baloghan, it wasn't just Indy, it
17:08was Jack Grealish, it was Ainsley Maitland-Niles, it was Timir Agbunam. But it also reminds you,
17:16that's just not the way to actually competently, coherently run a club. And I don't think Everton
17:22are, in general, the worst offenders in this, I should say. But to have everything coming
17:26down to one day like that doesn't make sense. And to go back to what Miguel was saying earlier,
17:32just stay off social media. Everyone should. Because you get people who spend too much time
17:37on social media, and they believe things that just are not true. And Miguel will have experienced
17:42transfers like this as well, where people believe something because it's on social media,
17:46and then you speak to someone at a club or whatever, and there was never any possibility
17:50of it at all.
17:51So on that, Rich, as well, I mean, because that's absolutely true. But there's now another element
17:55to this, which is, it's the kind of the cascade and momentum of discussion that creates.
18:01And like, I was talking to people connected to several clubs yesterday, who were basically,
18:06who couldn't but make reference to how the noise that emanates from social media, especially
18:12because of the way that picks up among the fan base. In a way, that was sort of impossible
18:1615 years ago. Like, you would have to go, I know we're getting into a discussion about
18:19social media and the internet now. But stuff that used to be on fan forums is now can take
18:24a life of its own because it's all in the public and social media. And it does create a different
18:28debate and atmosphere and noise around clubs that clubs can't but be aware of. And there's
18:34almost this, like, there was a bit of census yesterday for speaking to people clubs. There's
18:37obviously, there's those trying to actually get the business done, who almost have to
18:41be insulated from, you know, those around them, have to deal with kind of obviously requests,
18:47questions, and have to, and are aware of the wider debate.
18:51Yeah, for sure. So we'll get on to the winners and losers in the next part, and also discuss
18:56whether the Premier League window is almost at a breaking point.
19:01So welcome back to Copper Independent. I think we'll just discuss very quickly, guys,
19:05who are the clear winners and losers from this window, and even maybe from deadline day,
19:09because I feel like it felt like Manchester City, where the clear winners bringing in two
19:12really big buys, really two impressive players. Do you not agree, Rich? You're shaking your
19:18head.
19:20I really like Elliman Indai as a player, and I think he is one that has kind of flown under
19:25the radar. I think Evertonians know how good he is, and I don't think enough people in the
19:29outside world do, so I'll be interested to see how he does at City, even though I assume
19:34Docker and Semeni will be the first two choices on the wings.
19:37Enzo Fernandes, I have issues with the price, the tactical fit, and his temperament. I wouldn't
19:45have signed him on three reasons. His best form for Chelsea came really as a sort of attacking
19:51number eight or even a number ten, which actually meant that probably there isn't a role for
19:56him in Xabi Alonso's Chelsea when Morgan Rodgers and Cole Palmer are there. What do Manchester
20:00City need? Well, they need replacements to Rodri and Bernardo Silva at the base of the
20:04midfield. Elliot Anderson's coming in for one of those roles, Ayubayadi's coming for one
20:09of those roles. But the role that's there that City have, the players who filled it at
20:13Chelsea were more people like Moses Caicedo. And I mean, City were interested to some extent
20:20in Manu Kone of Roma, and I think he would have been a better fit tactically. Then you
20:26look at Fernandes himself, you know, petulant, selfish, ill-disciplined. He's forced his way
20:34out of his last two clubs. You look at his behaviour at the World Cup, and you also think of
20:40Manchester
20:40City in recent years. And we can talk about their success being built on having Pep Guardiola
20:46and having large amounts of money, and all of those are factors. But you look at the team
20:50that won things, and you look at the characters they had, and you think there were a lot of
20:55really good characters, really good professionals. You think of the treble team, Bernardo Silva,
21:01Rodri, Kevin De Bruyne, Ilkay Gundogan, Ruben Diaz, really low-maintenance people like
21:06Nathan Ake and Manuel Akanji, who I think Pep Guardiola loved. Would you use low-maintenance
21:12as a description of Enzo Fernandes? And then there's the price. You know, he's gone
21:16out for over £100 million twice. Chelsea have made a profit on him. He was there for three
21:22and a half years. The club underachieved for most of that time. How is he the joint most
21:27expensive player in the history of English football?
21:31Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I'm not going to be the one to defend Enzo Fernandes.
21:34I should make that absolutely clear, to be honest.
21:37I mean...
21:38I like him a lot more than Rich, I must say. But I agree with a lot of his sentiments.
21:44But just on that, I was going to ask, Rich, what do you think of the concept of winners
21:49and losers in the transfer window?
21:50I dislike it immensely. I think... I mean, by and large, I think most people have lost the
21:57transfer window anyway. But it's this simplistic nonsense. And it's quite amusing, actually,
22:03that Tottenham, you get all these people saying they've won the transfer window. They lost the
22:07first two games. Then last day, it was like, Liverpool have won the transfer window. Well,
22:11they spent £450 million to go from first to fifth. Judgment of players can only come over time. And
22:18as you were saying earlier, it's partly not just, is it a good player? How do they fit in the
22:22team?
22:23Is it what the team wants? And one of the interesting things at the start of this season is,
22:27two of the best players in the first couple of weeks, were players who were bad signings last
22:32year, but who have done well now, and Johan Visser and Anthony Alanga, which suggested they were good
22:37players all along. But you need the right combination of fitness and a tactical framework. In the case of
22:44Visser, a pre-season. Newcastle, it seems, have got it right in appointing a manager who can use these
22:50players he inherited. It's all that. And, you know, after all of this, you know, even at the weekend,
22:56some of these people they've spent absolute fortune on might not even play, you know.
23:01Barcala hasn't played since the third place match in the World Cup. Enzo Fernandes has only played
23:0620 minutes since the World Cup's final. So, but yeah, I hate the whole winners and losers thing.
23:13Well, there is actually one obvious winner, and that's the credit companies financing these deals.
23:20But, I mean, on that concept, though, like, I suppose when you're looking at kind of winners and losers,
23:26what you should be thinking about, I think, is the, is who solved the issues they needed.
23:34And obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean the signings are going to work out, which is where we
23:38touch on what Rich is saying, of course, about kind of, you can't say who's won the window until we
23:42see who's
23:42actually winning games. But as regards that, there's so few clubs, I think, that have solved their
23:50issues. And as we were saying, it's just, there's also this question about, you know, how you fit
23:56these players together. But that almost kind of compounded by the fact there are so many new
24:00managers in jobs. It does all feel a bit of a shapeless mess. And I had kind of, like, a
24:05lot of
24:05executives even this morning talking about how, like, it's for this stage of where football is,
24:10in 2026, where we've notionally come through the analytics revolution, and you have the
24:15example of Brentford and Brighton, that actually, it seems like there's been a complete knee-jerk
24:21response in the other way for more knee-jerk transfer activity. And hence, you just have
24:26this kind of, this morass or this floating cloud of loads of different players kind of
24:31jumping around without necessarily making much team sense. And I think from all this, the
24:38first few weeks of the Premier, or sorry, the first few months of the Premier League could
24:42actually be chaotic. Bar clubs that will have a certain stability, like, I suppose, like
24:48Arsenal, who, despite that, if you go online, I mean, as someone messaged me yesterday, I
24:54see Andrea Berta has taken Richard Hughes' status as the most hated sporting director in the Premier
25:00League. And that one, their squad is in pretty good shape.
25:04Yeah, I think there's quite a few sporting directors under pressure. Okay, so part two,
25:07winners and losers, delete. Fine. Not a problem. I mean, let's, I mean, we've touched on a few
25:13of these points so far, but I mean, you wrote about it, Miguel, this morning, and like, the
25:18headline was pretty strong about whether we feel like the Premier League has got to a breaking
25:21point with the transfer in there, whether it's too frenetic. I mean, I said, I said to someone
25:26yesterday, it almost just feels like football manager, really. Like, in the way people, you're
25:30selling and buying just so quickly, and the lack of squad building, the lack of cohesion
25:34within squads, and it shows, as Rich rightly said, that Tottenham are seen as a winners
25:39and they lose the first two games. I mean, do you think it has reached a breaking point?
25:44And if so, what realistically can be done in the next six to 12 months to bring in some,
25:50almost some safety measures to the amount of spending and the amount of expenditure, the
25:53amount of costs going into it? Because it almost feels like, to me, like the Everton fans
25:58protesting against their homegrown player going, it will take fan revolt. It will take
26:02backlash from the supporters for something really significant to happen. We've seen that
26:07with the European Super League proposal a few years ago. That got cancelled because of
26:11the fans. Will it take something similar from the fans for something to change?
26:15I do wonder whether, kind of, the wider forces that are referenced up the podcast might end up
26:21having a suppressive effect on this. If there is a global credit crunch over the next
26:27year, two years, that is, like, that's going to have huge implications for football.
26:34And hence, you've potentially got a situation this season where a few clubs might actually
26:39be, end up unusually dependent on European football. I think for all the criticism and
26:45everything, and the fans are obviously absolutely right to revolt about Armstrong, given what that
26:50means, I think clubs that were more restrained in this window, in the medium to long term,
26:55could end up looking better. I think it was right to wait in what was an unusually bullish
27:02market. I mean, look, as regards, kind of, the whole issue about a competition out of
27:06control, let's not forget, this is pretty much, outside Real Madrid, say, Barcelona, some
27:11of the big clubs, this is an exclusively Premier League thing. And it's all the more incredible,
27:17given, like, this is a market entirely generated within the Premier League. I think what was, I
27:21counted, it was hard to keep track, but I think last night counted that, seven of the ten most
27:27expensive deals were within the Premier League. That's never happened before in that way. It's
27:33not like they've got competition for these players for abroad. I think it's obvious, as Rich has
27:37touched on, that prices were usually inflated, not just beyond the kind of actual real-life
27:44inflation, but beyond the kind of football inflation. You'd wonder how long that in itself
27:50can go on for until clubs eventually hit some sort of wall. I mean, weighing over a lot of
27:57this, actually, is what happened to Leicester City, who almost got kind of, who felt kind
28:03of wider effects of, or kind of a modern version of reaching so high. And ironically, that wasn't
28:09the 2016 title, it was actually what happened afterwards. Reaching so high, not making the
28:14Champions League, and then kind of enduring this fall. We could see similar situations,
28:21but like, look, I would say that the entire transfer market, well, basically, that football's
28:27entire economy needs some sort of, the game's version of das Kapital, basically. It does need
28:33a significant overall. I mean, it was fun, it was interesting, as all this kind of money
28:37was being sprayed around by the wealthiest clubs in football, the Union of European Clubs,
28:43who are kind of this body to represent, for want of a better phrase, the smaller clubs,
28:47those who don't necessarily reach European football a lot, to protect the interests,
28:51or promote the interests that aren't necessarily reflected at kind of European lobbying level.
28:55They put out this model to argue that just 5% of this money should go towards the clubs
29:00that develop these players. That alone can have some sort of correction and spread the money
29:05around better. And I think that's one of many potential solutions that football should be
29:11looking at. We discussed this in the pod last week, actually. I think football should bring in
29:15more rules about actually playing homegrown players, academy players, as a corrective for
29:21a number of issues.
29:22It's actually interesting that one of the clubs that made the most money in the transfer window
29:26almost was Middlesbrough, out of their salon clause for Morgan Rodgers, and it got them far
29:32more than they could ever have expected when they put that salon clause in. They made about
29:3620 million from it, which I think is good. And every now and again, these things do work.
29:42And I think it worked for Exeter with Ollie Watkins a few years ago when he joined Aston Villa.
29:48And so those are some of the few good news stories out of this. But in terms of what Miguel
29:53was saying
29:54about Premier League to Premier League transfers, imagine if some of these players had been
29:59French, German, Spanish, Italian, and they've been doing a move within their home country.
30:05What would the prices have been? You know, someone like Morgan Rodgers, if he's Italian and he's
30:10joining Inter Milan from Roma, I don't know, is it 40 million? It's not 117.
30:16Yeah, I hear you. I mean, Rich, can I just ask you about the short-termism kind of on show
30:21here
30:21as well? As someone who covers some really hardcore fan bases with real kind of moralistic
30:28backgrounds, shall we say, the idea that the chopping and changing, I mean, for example,
30:34last summer's transfer window, quite appropriately described by Jamie Carragher for Liverpool as
30:39maybe the worst in Premier League history just for the outlay compared to the results, 450 million
30:44and only just got into the Champions League places. I mean, surely fans can see it happening
30:50and be like, hang on, can we have some stability here? And why can't club owners, why can't
30:57sporting directors see that for what it actually is?
30:59I don't think you often see fans calling for stability in the transfer market.
31:04Well, I think, I actually, I feel like fans online and fans on the terraces are probably
31:09two different sorts of fans.
31:10Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's a fair point. It's an interesting one. I mean, yeah, I mean,
31:16Liverpool's transfer window last year was awful. What you can say is sometimes sporting directors
31:22can be proved right over a period of years. And in the past, sometimes Liverpool's have.
31:27Isak was just a disaster. And you would hope, you would have hoped that in the past year that
31:32clubs would have learned from that. And you spend 125 million on a bloke who gets three goals in a
31:37season. And it's clearly not value for money. And yet, a whole bunch of other clubs have gone
31:43out and spent vast amounts, similar amounts in the case of Fernandes, exactly the same amount.
31:50Yeah, I would like to see more stability. I suppose the counter argument is that
31:56some of the players moving, at times of the homegrown ones choosing to move, I would have liked Trent
32:01Alexander-Arnold to stay at Liverpool for his entire career. And I'm not a Liverpool fan. I just
32:06thought that would have been, would have been brilliant. I don't blame him for going to Real
32:10Madrid. I don't blame Curtis Jones for going to Inter Milan. I mean, those are terrific moves in
32:15different ways, but I don't know. I think the whole thing's so out of control that, you know,
32:21I don't think you see a lot of fans calling for stability. I really don't. And I don't think,
32:27even though I think fans have become more conscious of costs in the age of, you know,
32:32PSR and all the rest of it, sometimes you just hear people say, why aren't they spending more
32:37money? Why aren't they buying more players? We need even more players. We need even more players.
32:40And I realise that's not every fan, but yeah, the whole thing's just ridiculous.
32:46Just to illustrate the point there, I was actually, I'm just, I'm seeing my,
32:49my WhatsApp on my laptop that is just continuing to kind of go with fallout from the day and a
32:57lot of
32:57kind of claims and all that sort of thing. But just on Rich's point, I mean, I suppose the thing
33:01that drives the transfer window generally, and especially the way it's become this other
33:05industry is because of that kind of basic thing, which is a kind of a natural, understandable thing
33:11that a new signing for any supporter is exciting. It's also, in some cases, it's more exciting than
33:18actual football because it allows you to imagine what your team's football can be. Because when you
33:23sign a player, you always, in most cases, especially an attacking player, fans are imagining the best
33:28possible example, not all the potential issues that come with them. But I wonder, and I'd actually
33:34be keen, keen for comments on this. I'd wonder what our listeners and viewers think. Like,
33:41did you enjoy, even if you love transfers, did you enjoy this deadline day? Did you enjoy what
33:48your club was doing? Because it did, it did feel like going, even for what the transfer industry has
33:55become, and the, and the transfer media industry, it feels like it went beyond that. That was like,
34:00this is basically just too much, like, like, like a lot at the moment. Yeah, just an absolute free
34:06for all. I mean, it doesn't, it just fills up because of the, the broadcast revenues, as you
34:10referenced last week, Miguel, it's just, there's just no limit to the spending. These clubs have so much
34:15money, particularly compared to other European clubs who are kind of standing by the wayside,
34:20waiting for the Premier League club to come in and, and double the bid and double the asking price. I
34:24mean, just, just, just to finish this bit and just, just to look ahead to the, to the next few
34:28weeks
34:29and months of the Premier League season. Rich, you're at Everton, Man United this weekend. Miguel,
34:33I assume you're at Arsenal, Chelsea. Yeah, I mean, two, two games which are significant in their own
34:39right in terms of games, but also because of what's happened last night. I mean, we'll start with
34:43Everton United, Rich. I mean, how do you see that one going? I know before the, before the podcast,
34:48we spoke a little bit about Sir Joshua Xerxes Derby after last night. Yeah, the, the, the loser gets
34:53to keep Joshua Xerxes. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see the atmosphere at Everton. Some of the
35:00Everton fan base are often quite unhappy, I think it's fair to say, and I suspect will be so even
35:05more.
35:06I mean, as Miguel was saying earlier, sometimes if you're not in Europe, you don't actually need a
35:11huge squad. And there are examples of teams who've done very well punching up from mid table where
35:17they've had the continuity of being able to pick the same 11 every week. Everton, they really,
35:24really need Tieno Barry to stay fit and to score some goals because last year they had the job
35:30share of Beto and Barry, which a lot of people laughed at. One of them played 38 Premier League
35:35games. One of them played 37 because they were forever coming on and off for each other.
35:40Now they've only got one striker. David Moyes, I don't think he's particularly excited about Tieno
35:45Barry. I was at Preston last week. Barry scored a hat trick. Moyes still sounded quite nonplussed,
35:51but Moyes is actually a very resourceful manager who is good at making do. And if you look at some
35:58of
35:58his good spells in his first time at Everton, a lot of them came when they didn't have vast numbers
36:04of players. And he was able to use that to galvanise them. And there's even some points
36:09there where they didn't have an actual striker and it was Tim Cahill or Marilyn Fellaini or someone
36:14like that up front. I think Moyes has got quite a lot of what he wants. He hasn't got as
36:20many players
36:20as he would have wanted. He hasn't got a couple of real quality additions. But I mean, for instance,
36:27Tyreek George was a player Everton wanted. Kiernan Dewsbury Hall is a player who is improving under
36:33David Moyes. Hayden Hackney's a player he's actually liked for quite a long time. And as a general rule,
36:39the best Moyes signings are players that he's tracked and liked for a long time. So can he use that
36:46despite his own dissatisfaction with the board? Can he use that to galvanise it? United, there's still a
36:52lot of questions about this, this midfield refit and will it work? They've had two mixed performances,
37:00well, poor performance at Hull, mixed one against Ipswich with an emphatic scoreline.
37:05They actually sat out quite a lot of deadline day. They're an example of a club who I think
37:10just didn't have any more money. They've spent so much in recent years. They didn't have any more,
37:16or they had a bit more, but not enough to go big for a player. So yeah, we'll see on
37:20that front.
37:21It's funny though at United, isn't it? I mean, having been a picture of inefficiency and
37:29overindulgence at obviously years where a lot of money was spent, but nowhere near to this level.
37:35It is interesting and conspicuous for a few reasons that they're now a picture of restraint
37:41in many ways. Some of that is obviously externally enforced, but it's hard to feel that some of it is
37:47also a bit of a calculation. Look, I think a bit of a theme I'm developing about out of this
37:52window
37:52is that those that showed restraint in this window are going to be served in the long term because I
37:58can't see these prices and the wages connect to these prices being sustainable. And those that will
38:04have allowed themselves some headroom may end up serving them over the next two to three years.
38:09Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if United, if restraint is the word. I think the problem they've had is
38:14that
38:14in a way, they almost ran out of leeway and they ran out of money. And it was telling early
38:19on in
38:19the window when they didn't go in for Matias Fernandes, who they liked, partly because Tottenham,
38:24I think, deliberately decided to blow them out of the water with the 85 million bid.
38:29But United, I mean, certainly the midfielders they signed, they signed from the second tier of
38:35prices, if you look. And the Telemans one is value for money in this market. But there's a few
38:40things you have to consider with United and money. And one is that Amorim cost them so much.
38:46I mean, he really did. If you think they finished 15th in a season, if they were budgeting to finish
38:51fifth, that's a difference of about 30 or 40 million in prize money. You think there was the
38:5711 million euros in compensation for Sporting Lisbon to get him. There's the money at the end
39:02where they're still paying him and his coaching staff. There's the fact that last year, because they
39:07go out of the Cups at the first possible opportunity, one of them under Darren Fletcher,
39:12but there's no extra money from extra home games, from extra broadcast money, extra everything.
39:18They paid over the odds the previous summer, players like Mbwemo, Cunha, Sesko. I think they
39:24probably paid about 10 million too much for each. And then there's the fact they couldn't sell.
39:30You know, they're able to, in fairness, they're able to get decent prices for kids like Radek,
39:34Vitek and Toby Colia. But at the start of the window, United might have thought,
39:38sell Andre and Erna, sell Joshua Xerxi, sell Manuel Agate, sell Rashford. They didn't sell
39:45any of them. I mean, Rashford, I think, is a really good player. The other three aren't.
39:49And with Rashford as well, maybe it's one of those, like obviously there'd been an expectation
39:52for a fair bit of the summer that he would eventually go. And obviously that's been kind
39:58of linked to the long-term opinion that he needed to get away from United. But I do wonder
40:02whether his time away through Villa and then Barcelona, which I think had a bit of a revitalising
40:07effect on him, and has come back to a transform Manchester United, whether it might suddenly
40:11be good for both parties. Actually, he's back now, revitalised. And I think we've already
40:16seen the impact on some of his performances this season. But just almost a contrast to
40:22United this season. I suppose if he said this to people 10 years ago, they would have been
40:26staggered by it. But you mentioned Tottenham there. I mean, Tottenham, to me, almost feel
40:30like they sum up a lot of this window. They've obviously spent so much. You can see, look,
40:37they are a better team, a better squad. There's no doubt about that. But it's hard to know
40:41how much better. We've got no real idea about that. Were the players, even if they were improvements
40:47in what they had, were they worth the prices they paid?
40:50And how do they go together? Because that's been the big question about Fernandes and Tonali
40:54from the start. I mean, I really like Tonali, but Fernandes is a decent player. But do they
40:59go together with someone like Rodrigo Bentenker as a more defensive midfielder? Or do they
41:04go together with someone playing as a number 10? At the moment, we just don't know.
41:09Yeah, and I think with Spurs executives, they would argue that it couldn't get any worse
41:12than last season. So let's splash the cash and really try and leapfrog up the table.
41:16I mean, just quickly, Miguel, Arsenal-Chelsea, a lot of people talking up Chelsea at the moment,
41:20two wins from two under Xabi Alonso, even though they've showed some defensive frailties
41:25within that. Arsenal a bit more dogmatic on Monday night in their 1-0 win at Aston Villa,
41:31an almost classic Mattel Arteta-Arsenal performance away from home. I mean, how do you see that
41:37one going?
41:38I think Arsenal win with a control display that exploits Chelsea's lack of control. Let's
41:45see what happens. But it's funny, actually, given all this discussion, that Arsenal,
41:50Arsenal are suddenly presented with one of the signings they could have had. And people
41:56say that they could have had him before. One of the big explanations for Arsenal not getting
41:59Morgan Rodgers is because of the level the price went to. But there is this argument that
42:04they could have got him sooner when they didn't have competition, when he really wanted to
42:08go there. That's a matter of some debate. Arsenal would say they respected the World Cup
42:12campaign and all that. Then Chelsea were always going to come in with the valuation they
42:15did. But it's funny, yeah. Like, almost kind of the two teams this week, these two
42:21teams speak to kind of almost these contrasting approaches, especially with like Chelsea have
42:25had this constant turnover. I think they are, they have made an astute signing, a very good
42:29signing in Xabi Alonso, who is able to corral this together. But there is still that question,
42:35I suppose, over the midfield, especially the midfield in a situation where their games have
42:43been so frenetic. I mean, like the stats from the Brighton game, like, look, everyone's
42:47pointed to them. Like, they weren't the stats, really, of a 4-3 win. I think Chelsea were
42:53very entertaining. Like, with Chelsea, I'm almost a bit conflicted. On the one side, there's
42:57what we've got now, which is games where they can seem to control them and it always leaves
43:01them at a risk, no matter how good that attack is. On the other, of course, there is the
43:05fact that without European football, they can gradually, especially a coach as good as
43:10Alonso can gradually hone the team into something that works, that mitigates that risk, that
43:17control or that lack of control. And they do eventually seize it in another way. For
43:21the moment, it does just feel that I think Arsenal can take advantage of that, especially
43:27at home. That Chelsea have been kind of, they've been on a bit of a high-wire act in
43:31the two games so far. And just on the Arsenal thing as well, look, obviously, I do think
43:37the squad is almost exactly as Arteta would want it, bar that one final piece.
43:44But, just unfortunately for them, and if I use unfortunately like a bit, I'd temper it
43:50a bit. The lack of that final piece, that left forward star, the one to really elevate the
43:56attack in the way they wanted, that does just feel it leaves them a little short, especially
44:00as, look, as someone connected to the club, put to me yesterday. Can it really be that good
44:04a window when three Premier League-proven players have gone, even if two of them weren't actually
44:09used that often? And you've only brought in one untried player? They also seem to lack
44:14a bit of pace up front, maybe. But, as someone connected to the club also put to me, well,
44:19this is just one thing where a coach as good as Arteta can adapt, and where more managers
44:24should adapt. I mean, they pointed to the example of the goal that Saka got against Villa
44:28on Monday night, where Eze plays on the left, okay, it's not the kind of the outlet they'd
44:33have with a proper pace on that side, but he's more controlled, and it allowed Calafiore,
44:38or potentially Hincapié, to come in as a kind of a flying left-back and set up the goal
44:43as happened with Saka.
44:44Just quickly, Miguel, actually, just the final point. You mentioned that Arsenal missed out
44:48on that superstar signing in Julian Alvarez. They obviously kind of showed interest in Vinicius
44:52Junior earlier in the summer. I think it kind of says a lot that Premier League
44:57Clubs will spend all this money, and yet still can't quite attract the top, top superstar.
45:02I mean, particularly given Arsenal, Premier League champions, got the biggest depth in
45:07the whole of the Premier League, heavy favourites to win it again, and they were Champions League
45:10finalists last year. I mean, do you think that speaks to a wider point about, actually,
45:15the lure of Barcelona and Real Madrid is still heavier, even though Premier League clubs
45:19can offer more money and more in wages?
45:22So, I did my newsletter on this two weeks ago. I think it's really interesting, especially
45:26for all the money spent, a star hasn't come in. And it wasn't just Arsenal that arguably
45:31needed one, but maybe the Premier League. The Premier League would say that, obviously,
45:34that works two ways. The lack of stars, well, not the lack of stars, they wouldn't say that,
45:40but the competitiveness that the Premier League rules condition, or especially money sharing
45:46in that, has ensured, despite the perception of stars in Spain, the Premier League has become
45:51a more attractive product than La Liga. And that is undeniably true, because there's more
45:56competitive intensity to the games. I think there's a few other elements to that, though,
46:00as well. I mean, the thing is, like, you hear all sorts of stuff about, kind of, you know,
46:04luxury taxes and all this. The reality is the Premier League has the revenues to buy the stars.
46:09Of course, it's not for want of not spending money, but I think the competitiveness of the
46:15league, or rather the kind of, the much steadier gradient between the top and bottom compared
46:20to the steep gradient in Spain, it means that teams need, kind of, deeper, bigger squads,
46:26and you've got to, kind of, spend more of your budget in different areas, rather than being
46:30able to, kind of, go big on one or two. There are other elements. I mean, there's an obvious
46:34lifestyle issue. I mean, one of the reasons that Alvarez wanted to go to Barcelona was,
46:38A, what Barcelona represents, and B, just living in Spain. And also, we can't escape
46:45that for all the Premier League's revenue, by the last Deloitte Football Money League,
46:49none of its clubs were in the top four by revenue. That was still the three who were
46:53the most, the biggest attractors of stars, Madrid, Barca, and Paris Saint-Germain, and
46:58maybe there's a little bit of an outlier there, Bayern Munich, who do operate in a bit
47:01of a different way.
47:01I wonder if, I mean, there's a few things Miguel said, but I wonder if part of the issue
47:06is just that Arsenal targeted the wrong stars, that Alvarez and Vinicius didn't actually either
47:11really wanted to come. But, I mean, I do think the depth element that Miguel referenced is
47:17really important when it comes to Arsenal. They've probably got not just the deepest
47:21squad in England, you could say they've got the deepest squad in Europe. And, I mean,
47:25I wrote this the other day, because I went to their game and asked Aston Villa, I feel
47:29if you give Mikel Arteta 150 million, he will often sign three 50 million pound players rather
47:35than 150 million pound player. And even though, in a way, they are a bit short on the left
47:40flank, and I do wonder if they would have sold Trossard if they'd known that they were going
47:46to sell Martinelli and that they would only get Solis. But, on the other hand, I was thinking
47:50about this Arsenal squad and not just the depth they have, but the number of versatile players
47:55they have. And if you were to compile a depth chart in every position, they would have so
48:01many options because they have so many versatile players. And maybe with Arsenal, that position
48:06on the left, does that mean maybe Saka has some games there? Does it mean maybe Madweke
48:10does? Possibly even someone like Myles Lewis Skelly. I don't think it's as simple as just
48:15saying, well, they've only got one out and out left winger. I mean, Eze, I think, will spend
48:19more time on the left than in the middle this year. But I do think there are ways around
48:23it, certainly in terms of winning the Premier League.
48:26The one thing I would say is, well, so they wanted, you know, the phrases used to me were
48:32absolute X-factor as that left forward. The player, like, Arteta touched on it, or he
48:36didn't touch on it. He basically had a coded request after the Champions League final to
48:40show ambition. And to be fair to him, there are very few players that fit that profile.
48:47Kvarchgelia, Vinicius, Alvarez, like, I wrote back in March, they were interested in Kvarchgelia.
48:51That wasn't going to happen. Vinicius, there was a potential opening. I think people were
48:56surprised that Madrid went as high as they did with their offer. And then Alvarez, who
49:00Arteta and Arsenal kind of were desperate to convince. And after that, I think you could
49:06get into a bit of a bigger debate there connected to what we're talking about. Maybe that's a
49:09situation where actually you identify the next potential player to be that, and you get
49:19up an entire theme at the window. That, this is something I would agree with, that was put
49:23to me yesterday as well. If you can't get the player you want right now, and it's better
49:27to show discipline and not move, rather than waste a budget on a player you mightn't fully
49:33want in that way. And this is something that actually Jurgen Klopp typified in building his
49:38Liverpool team.
49:39Yeah, I was about to mention that, you know, if you can't get Virgil van Dijk in one window,
49:43you wait for him. You don't sign a worse centre-back. And it paid dividends with Alisson.
49:47I mean, with Arsenal and the left wing, it's interesting. They obviously didn't want to
49:51go as high as Chelsea for Rodgers. They didn't want to go as high as Liverpool for Barcala.
49:55I do wonder if, could they have rivaled Barcelona for Anthony Gordon, or would they have just
50:01taken the view, well, he's not that X-factor player. He's not substantially better. So,
50:06just wait until we find someone who is.
50:09Well, I feel like discipline and patience is a pretty good sentiment and a good way to end
50:14the podcast, actually, in many ways. So, that's all we've got time for today.
50:17Thank you, Miguel. Thank you, Rich, for joining me this morning. Enjoyed that. Thanks again
50:21to our producer, Jamie McDonald, for his brilliant work in putting all this together. Make sure
50:25to give us a like and subscribe. And Copper Independent is an independent podcast network
50:29production. So, do please check out all the shows on our website and on YouTube. And we'll
50:34catch you again next week for what we promise won't be a transfer-focused show. So, see you
50:38all then.
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