- 2 months ago
- #considerthis
Who profits when Malaysians are angry at one another? A recent undercover investigation by The Fourth found that influencer agencies were willing to discuss campaigns involving racist and divisive narratives, exposing what it describes as a growing “hate economy”, where anger and polarisation can be monetised. But can the same tools of social media influence be used to help make Malaysia harder to divide? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with journalist Ian Yee, Co-Founder of The Fourth, and two content creators who are Fourth Influencers, who go by the monikers Pudds and Fiona Yoong.
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00:10Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:18the day.
00:19Who profits when Malaysians are angry at each other?
00:22A recent undercover investigation by the 4th found that influencer agencies were actually willing to discuss campaigns involving racist and
00:31divisive content,
00:33exposing what it describes as a growing hate economy where anger and polarization can be monetized.
00:41But can those same tools of social media influence be used to help make Malaysia harder to divide?
00:48Well that's what we want to discuss today with our panelists, our guests on the show.
00:53I have with me journalist Ian Yee who is co-founder of the 4th.
00:56We're also joined by two content creators who are 4th influencers who go by the monikers PUDS and Fiona Young.
01:04Welcome to the show everyone, thank you so much for joining me.
01:06It's good to have many people here to have different voices and perspectives.
01:10But if I may begin with you Ian, to tell us a little bit about the undercover investigation by the
01:164th.
01:16So you approached agencies, you posed as political aides and you asked them if they could help spread racist and
01:24divisive content.
01:25So tell me about what you found.
01:28What did you discover about just how easily hatred can be turned into a commercial endeavor?
01:36Yeah, I think we were just trying to confirm what I think everybody already suspects, right?
01:39Like we see the comments online, we know that there's so much hate, it can't be real, right?
01:44Because in our daily interactions with everyday Malaysians you always see that we are not really as divided as maybe
01:49social media makes it out to be.
01:51But at the same time we know that people, it's a niggling like suspicion in the back of their minds.
01:55So by going undercover, posing as these politicians or ministers, aides, we were able to speak to these agencies.
02:02They were more than happy to speak to us.
02:04And unfortunately we couldn't get information on their past projects, past campaigns that they've done.
02:09They said that they've done many projects similar before.
02:12And we basically asked them, we gave them a few topics as a politician's aide.
02:17Would you do this topic?
02:18Would you feature this marginalized community in a certain way that was probably a bit harmful and hateful?
02:25And most of them said yes.
02:27And I think the thing that surprised us the most was how much they were charging.
02:31It was up to a million ringgit for a campaign.
02:34So they are definitely benefiting from it.
02:36It is an economy that has grown, that has flourished, and is enabled both by the politicians as well as
02:40social media companies.
02:41So it confirmed your suspicions, but can I ask you what surprised you about what you discovered?
02:47Was it the fact that they were willing to do this?
02:51That they knew exactly what kind of content will go viral?
02:55Or the fact that nobody seems to care or understand about the social consequences of creating these types of content?
03:02I think it has to be all of the above.
03:04All of that was shocking to us.
03:06I think mainly the fact that they have almost like a playbook.
03:09They were telling us how they do it, how they get around the social media companies, like policies on hate
03:16speech and things like that.
03:18How they hire seeders and fake accounts.
03:22They use fake accounts, bot accounts, just to game the algorithm.
03:26All of that was really shocking to us.
03:28So the fact that we knew it happens was one thing.
03:30But to understand the level of sophistication that goes behind it, it's really much more advanced than most Malaysians know.
03:39Right. Can I bring the two of you in?
03:41Let's start with you, Fiona, if I may.
03:43You know, both of you as creators, you depend on the engagement, the clicks, the views, all of that.
03:50Is there a kind of uncomfortable truth that you have to face as content creators when you know that the
03:56very content that are divisive,
03:58that the content that people hate is what actually makes them engage and react?
04:05And does that tension sit difficultly within you as content creators? Fiona first.
04:11I think definitely, speaking for myself, my content, it's on gender equality.
04:15And I have realised that no matter how you frame it, it's going to attract some sort of tension, right?
04:21Because there are deemed to be people who want to misunderstand you, who don't come from the intention of wanting
04:27to understand your content.
04:28Because I almost always frame my gender equality content around how it's about the system.
04:34It's not about women versus men. It's never about that.
04:37But there are always going to be people who want to create that kind of tension in the comment section.
04:43Because when they are able to give this really polarising view of how you just hate men,
04:49and then you see all this hundreds of people liking that comment, and they sort of gain power from that,
04:55right?
04:55They sort of gain attention from that, like sort of riding on our platform, making themselves famous in a way.
05:02And this is what I would call bad engagement, because I guess as content creators,
05:07we start to recognise that bad engagement is still engagement, right?
05:11But for me, when I see hate comments like this, that are not necessarily constructive criticism,
05:17but more of like personal hatred towards like my very being, and not about the content that I'm spreading,
05:25then it's just a distraction. And I don't want my viewers to be distracted by these sort of comments.
05:31I want them to really be able to learn what I'm trying to say here.
05:35I see you nodding. Does this resonate with you?
05:37I feel for me, yeah, I also do get these sort of comments, but I think in recent times it
05:45hasn't been,
05:45because I've been shifting my content towards something that is more, well, positive.
05:50I actually run a series called Mystical Malaysia, and basically in my series I dive deep into like Malaysia's spiritual
05:56root,
05:56and also bring up like social issues that I think are holding like certain parts of people or like communities
06:03back.
06:03So, so far the response has been good, but yes, there are still people who get like with any chance
06:10they get,
06:11they will try to find a way to like bite at you in a way.
06:15And I think that it, okay, for me, I think there will be people like that.
06:22But like if people are well informed enough and they know how to read and dissect comments,
06:29then, you know, it will be much better for the society.
06:33So when, so if I just may come in here and talk a little bit about your series of Mystical
06:37Malaysia, it's great.
06:38So, so when you put out content like that, are you conscious that no matter how positive the intention,
06:44how good the intentions can be to create, you know, a post that it's someone will find something to pick
06:52a fight in the comments about it?
06:54Are you conscious that when you put out your content that seemingly harmless issues can become racialized and sensationalized?
07:05Definitely. I mean, like, like I said, people will take a, you know, an opportunity to bite at you whenever
07:10they can.
07:11But for me, yeah, like, like Fiona said, like bad engagement, I don't deal with it. I don't like it.
07:17So, I mean, it's my account. And what I do is I usually just hide the comment.
07:22So bad engagement is still engagement. Do you find that as content creators, you are able realistically to reject engagement
07:34in any shape or form?
07:35Because essentially that's your livelihoods, right?
07:38I think, okay, for instance, let's say I get a hate comment, right? I have two options.
07:44Either I hide the comment or I reply to the comment. But if I reply to the comment, I'll make
07:49sure that my message is very clear.
07:51Like, hey, this is not right. You know, please take it back. But yeah.
07:55And then people will see because if people are fans of my content, they usually would like side with me
08:00and then they will double think the person's hate comment.
08:03So from there, I would able to be able to deliver my message of like, you know, do the right
08:09thing. Do not talk like this.
08:11Okay. So you feel it's important to speak up and say something and not just let them get away with
08:15hiding behind an anonymous account or something.
08:18Fiona?
08:18For myself, I have seen so many hate comments like that on my content. And for some of those comments,
08:25when they try to put it in a very intellectual way of thinking,
08:29so sort of disagreeing with gender equality, but in an intellectual way. And that's when you can see it as
08:36constructive criticism.
08:37It's not no longer like a personal hatred towards my being. And so I just leave that comment there. I
08:42don't necessarily have to respond because I somehow feel like they want the attention from me.
08:47So what happens is that I see my followers who understand what I'm saying, what I've been saying, they will
08:53fight. They will fight with this person. And that you will see all these comments like being liked and supported
08:59by so many people.
09:00And I feel a sense of success. I feel a sense of satisfaction.
09:05Satisfaction.
09:05Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they are fighting for a good cause.
09:08Fantastic. Can I ask both of you how you responded to the expose by the fourth in terms of whether
09:18or not you have ever had to turn down a campaign or a partnership or any kind of engagement that
09:23didn't sit right with you.
09:25And I'm wondering because, you know, is it how difficult is it? Maybe you can give us a sense of
09:29your reality. How difficult is it to say no to a campaign when content creation really is your livelihood?
09:36Fiona, have you ever had that experience? Definitely.
09:38So I have had a campaign before from a brand that many influencers would want to take up. So basically,
09:45it's a semi luxury handbag.
09:48Okay, you're not going to name and shame them, right?
09:50I feel like even up until today, there are still a lot of influencers and content creators who want to
09:55be like associated with this brand.
09:58And I was given that opportunity. I did not reach out to them. But there was someone in that particular
10:03industry that could link me up to this brand.
10:07And at that point of time, I am against this. I was I am still against this because of the
10:13genocide that's been happening in Palestine.
10:15Yeah. And because this particular brand is is associated with Israel. And so at that point of time, I I
10:23almost took it up.
10:25But I knew it didn't sit right with me. I couldn't sleep that night because I did tell this person
10:30is very important to me.
10:31And so I did tell him that I will consider it. And she was already waiting for me to say
10:37yes. And so that night I couldn't sleep at all.
10:39Like it's not even about the fame. It's not even about the money anymore. Like it sounds like a privilege
10:45that I can say this, right?
10:47But I couldn't sleep. That's the reality of it.
10:50It has to sit right with you. What about your thoughts?
10:52For me, I have similar views about like the genocide. I strongly am against taking any brand deals that are
10:59in the BDS list.
11:00Okay. Right. So that is one. But I also do reject. I mean, personally for me, because I want my
11:06brand to be like family friendly and like, you know, enjoy by all ages.
11:10So I don't take up alcohol. I don't take up vape advertisements, anything that is harmful to the body. I
11:17reject.
11:17Right. And like you said, does it worry? Is it worrying for me that I, my career and my life
11:23depends on, you know, jobs like this.
11:25But I think for me, like, it's okay to push away one or two because like, if you're, I believe
11:30if your personal branding as a content creator is good enough, like there will always be brands that will come
11:35knocking on the door.
11:35So it's no loss. Yeah. Ian. Yes. No, I was just, I just want to give them their props because
11:41they have built a following of a few hundred thousand people by doing it the hard way.
11:47Right. By rejecting a lot of these rage baiting tactics, by rejecting bad engagement and really engaging people who engage
11:55with them in good faith.
11:56Because there's so many strategies that I feel like the cyber troopers and these paid political actors use to generate
12:02that engagement.
12:03Right. And the social media companies are complicit in enabling it. Right. Because the more engagement you have, the more
12:09comments, even if they're terrible, harmful comments on your posts, your content will travel wider.
12:15But they have refused to do it. And that's why we were so happy when they were, they said that
12:19they were on board to be one of the fourth influencers, because we do believe that people like them, creators
12:23like them have a huge opportunity, huge platform to show what social media can be instead of the hateful kind
12:32of bubble that we see now.
12:33Well, maybe you can tell us a little bit about this, this new initiative. Tell us about why you have
12:38decided to move in this direction of creating an influencer agency and recruiting wonderful impact influencers, as you call it,
12:47the fourth influencers. Tell us about that.
12:48Yeah, well, as journalists, and I'm sure you've probably seen this as well. I think the information ecosystem is is
12:54really in a terrible state. Right.
12:55Like we rely on news, we rely on information to make decisions of our daily lives. Right. Whether it was
13:01back in the covid days, you know, deciding on whether the vaccine is safe or not.
13:04We need information to help us make those decisions. Right. And now we don't know what's real anymore.
13:10And after our investigation, even more, we feel like everything you see online, you just can't tell what's real and
13:16what's fake.
13:16So we need to fix something. And we feel also that this is something that could fundamentally damage the very
13:23foundations of democracy in our country.
13:25Right. When you don't know if you can trust the news anymore, you don't know who is really holding people
13:31in power accountable anymore.
13:33That's a very dangerous place for society to be. So we have to act quickly. We have to act decisively.
13:38And that's where we launched Fourth Influencers to show people what actual ethical content creators would look like and how
13:46they actually engage with the public in ways that are constructive and helpful,
13:50at least not harmful. Right. So and they do that wonderfully.
13:53So what would that mean in practice? Talk to me about what an ethical impact influencer is and what ethics
14:01she espouses.
14:02She or he espouses. Yeah. Yeah. So we have five community values that we are pushing at this point.
14:09And we hope to get into more details. So we don't want to set the bar too high. Right.
14:13Because the way the system is right now, it's hard for influencers already to get by.
14:17So we want to make sure that we have a fairly low barrier of entry.
14:21So the five values are very closely mirror what journalism values are.
14:25So the first one is honesty. Make sure you say only what you know to be true, for example.
14:29I think that's a good starting point.
14:31So if you don't know if it's not true, at least say it.
14:34Say I've heard this, but I don't I haven't been able to verify.
14:37I tried my best. So that's one of them.
14:40I won't go through all five. But the last one, for example, is accountability.
14:43So if you've made a mistake, you own up to it.
14:46So I think that's something that's become a bit of a lost art saying sorry.
14:49I think on social media, if you create conflict, if you if you messed up, you kind of double down
14:54on it and create more engagement, more anger, more outrage.
14:58So with ethical influencers, we believe if you you said something and you realize later on it wasn't true, you
15:04were duped.
15:05Just say sorry and correct it. Make sure everybody understands what the truth was and that they can really trust
15:10you moving forward.
15:12And why did the both of you decide to join forces with the fourth?
15:15Was that did you know, had you already been kind of embodying these ethics before and found kind of kindred
15:23spirits within the fourth?
15:24Or was it something new that you decided, hey, I really want to tailor, I want to be this is
15:29the kind of content creator I want to be part?
15:32Oh, I think for me, I've always embodied these values. And then when I came across the videos by the
15:38fourth media, I was really excited.
15:40I was like, whoa, they're actually doing such impactful work. Like I want to be a part of them.
15:45But then it was before they launched fourth influencers. And then once they launched, I was like, I want to
15:49join.
15:50Timing was perfect.
15:53For me, yes, I have also been embodying these principles, like not necessarily consciously, but I guess it's a subconscious
15:59thing when you make content.
16:01And I've already seen their work before. And similarly, I also felt like, wow, it's so cool to be a
16:07part of investigative journalism.
16:09And when and after getting to know them, I realized that they are a group of people with a lot
16:14of integrity.
16:14Yeah, integrity in reporting in and being very transparent. And they have a lot. And this is where we find
16:21accountability.
16:22And these are the values that are very important in maintaining and upholding democracy in our country.
16:27Like not only for the voices of the majority of the people, but also marginalized groups and people who are
16:32silenced.
16:32I 100% agree with you. They are a bunch of really great folks over at the fourth.
16:37Yes. To add on to that, I also felt that because like I have a platform, right, and I felt
16:43like because their messaging was already like strong,
16:45I wanted to use my platform to like boost their work even more.
16:49You get what I mean? So we cannot.
16:50The amplification.
16:51The amplification.
16:52Actually, can we talk a little bit about that? Whether there is a commercial and algorithmic problem here.
16:59So outrage is very easy to measure, right? It's conducive for the fighting in the comments that we talked about.
17:05It's conducive for the resharing and also the longer watch times.
17:09But when you have empathy and understanding and positive content, that's a lot harder to quantify.
17:15That's also a lot harder to sell. And the algorithm tends to not like things that are not emotionally intense.
17:21So how do we think about that? Ian, if I may come to you.
17:24Does the algorithm itself make your project harder?
17:28100%. So we are fighting against technology.
17:32Sometimes people say that people are not so easily duped by social media.
17:36But these social media companies, they spend billions of dollars designing their platform so that people will keep consuming it,
17:43right?
17:44So sometimes it's not to say that people don't have agency, but you are fighting against really huge forces that
17:49want you to stay hooked on the app.
17:51And the easiest way to do that is for you to constantly be angry and to constantly find somebody else
17:57as an enemy.
17:57So it works against content. I think like the like what I mentioned that the wonderfully wholesome and positive content
18:04that you guys are doing.
18:05And we've seen that in our work as well.
18:07But having said that, what I find is when you embody these values that we are trying to lay in
18:13these principles, people have a deeper connection with you.
18:16So even as we have we have we've been around actually for quite a while, right?
18:19Like my team and I, we've been doing investigative documentaries for the past 10 years or so.
18:23We've gone from like the early days of Twitter to Facebook to Instagram to TikTok.
18:30So we've been through all the different types of content.
18:32And I think people have followed us throughout.
18:34So I think it just goes to show that there are trends.
18:37There are certain ways the algorithm will change.
18:39But trust is the one that will keep you in the audience's minds, in their hearts and minds.
18:43And what about you both? Do you find that positive and or socially constructive content, can that genuinely compete in
18:55this clickbait attention economy we have currently?
18:59Do you find it more difficult?
19:01And are you ever, I guess, concerned that your wholesome content might not be pushed out as much as something
19:09that's far more divisive?
19:11Fiona, if you might?
19:12For me, it is still a challenge.
19:14It was a challenge before and it is definitely still a challenge now.
19:17So for example, it's not just about whether people want to watch your content or not, but whether the social
19:22media companies are pushing out your content, right?
19:25So for example, I have about 400,000 followers on Instagram.
19:29But recently I have posted a video about gender equality, how I've been seeing a lot of hate towards feminism
19:36on Malaysian threats and how I just posted a video talking about that.
19:41And that video has only about 8,000 views, which has never happened before in my entire platform.
19:48It is crazy. It's insane. Like maybe I was thinking maybe because I've used words like feminism, body shaming, this
19:58kind of words that could have been censored.
19:59So I don't know if the social media companies actually just auto-sensor the content simply because they use AI
20:05to screen for words like that on the screen.
20:08And then they just consider it as harmful to people and just stop pushing it out for engagement.
20:13But that doesn't stop you from using those words, even though you know you might be, quote unquote, punished for
20:18it by the algorithm.
20:18Yes, but I'll have to do some modification.
20:22Okay. You'll find ways around it, right?
20:24You'll find ways around it, yeah.
20:26What?
20:26For me, I had a similar experience to that. It was like my recent video that I did in conjunction
20:30with Kementerian Papaduan Negara.
20:32It's about like anti-racism. And yeah, that video got taken down on TikTok.
20:38Yeah, for the reason it was what low quality QR code content. There's no QR code in the video.
20:44What are you talking about?
20:45Okay. So really it's quite no rhyme or reason to why things happen.
20:49I think sometimes it's also depending on like your luck and like how the AI screening is done.
20:54So can't really do much about it. But as much as I know, like in algorithm wise and like pushing
21:00out like positive content,
21:02there's actually, I mean, for me, I don't really have like a big struggle with it because I feel like
21:08there is an art to making videos.
21:10Like, you know, engaging hook and then like get them in. You know, they like all that viral, like sensitive
21:16topics.
21:17You hook them in. And then after that, you change the narrative and make it good.
21:20Yeah.
21:20Sometimes you need to fish and you need to fight fire with fire a bit. So I love that.
21:25That is the art of it, I guess.
21:26I mean, no AI can be, or no tech can be smarter than humans in figuring out ways around it.
21:33Ian, can I ask you, coming back to bad influence, the expose that the fourth did, the most obvious response
21:40I would have to say to bad influence would have been,
21:42let's regulate the industry. Is that how you feel about it? How do you see, is more regulation realistic in
21:50this sense?
21:52Yeah. I think some regulation is needed. So we are launching a campaign together with our fourth influencers.
21:58We can't say too much about it. But as we were developing the idea for bad influence, there were three
22:04solutions that came to mind.
22:05Number one would be more focused on influencers themselves. Like they need to change the way they operate.
22:11We need to uphold certain ethical standards. The second one is on the content, the social media companies.
22:15They need to fix their algorithm and try to promote things that are perhaps a bit more positive.
22:20And then the last one would be on the politicians who are actually funding this, right, and the agencies that
22:24they engage.
22:25So ultimately we landed on, of course, who should we target, right?
22:28It would be politicians and the agencies that are actually doing it.
22:31So we are trying to call for an anti-cybertrooper law. But in most countries that have similar laws, they
22:38call it political advertising laws.
22:39So basically you want to make sure that if a piece or a piece of content or some type of
22:44marketing is paid for by a politician, they need to disclose it.
22:48Number one, they need to disclose it on the content itself.
22:51So at the end of the content needs to clearly say this was paid for by so and so, right?
22:54So it gives the audience more power to decide for themselves what I want to make out of this content.
22:59Do I buy it 100%? Do I feel like this is the type of content that resonates with me?
23:03But at least I know someone's paying for it.
23:06The second thing that we can do, so the law, the first part, yes, disclose it on the content itself.
23:10The second part, disclose it to a public registry.
23:13So disclose how much was paid to a public, to a website, a platform.
23:18And that allows journalists, civil society, actors, people like yourself as well, to go onto this registry and find out
23:23who exactly paid for that piece of content.
23:25Fantastic. And if I may wrap up this episode with the both of you, some of your thoughts.
23:30We're in the Merdeka Day, Malaysia Day season at the moment.
23:35And as content creators, I think at this time, I wanted to ask both of you how you view your
23:42role as influencers, as content creators.
23:45Is there a way that you can play a role to help make Malaysia that much stronger, that hard, that
23:53much harder to divide?
23:55Because we're always told that what we see online, you know, we're made to be angry at someone.
24:01So what role do you see yourself playing?
24:03Is there one thing that you think Malaysian influencers could do better?
24:07Pat, if I may begin with you.
24:08For me, since I've always embodied these values, I think this month is the month to really amplify what I
24:14stand for.
24:15So that means more content, you know, more of Mystical Malaysia.
24:20You know, Mystical Malaysia doesn't just zone in into like one race.
24:24It actually embodies all races of Malaysia.
24:28So doing that and also maybe a few videos about the history of like Malaysia's independence, you know,
24:32to remind people of the hardships we went through to be able to like flourish as a country today.
24:37I think that would like ground people back to their roots and make them really remember what makes them truly
24:42Malaysian.
24:43Yeah.
24:44That's my plan.
24:44Fiona?
24:45For me, I feel like we need to talk more about breaking stereotypes, breaking gender stereotypes, racism stereotypes.
24:52And you see, content creators, we tend to play it safe.
24:55A lot of us tend to play it safe and we don't want to touch those lines.
24:58But what I'm trying to say here is don't just touch those lines.
25:01We need to break those lines.
25:03Go back to our roots like what Pat say.
25:05And I believe that is what makes us truly Malaysian.
25:08Ian, on the final message.
25:11Do you believe that the creator economy, the content creator economy, the influencer economy can be part of nation building?
25:20100%.
25:20We've done it before.
25:22I think you're familiar with some of our other campaigns.
25:24Like you went for a Dari Dapur visit where we brought prominent Malaysians to have a meal with migrant and
25:30refugee communities.
25:31And that spread so much positivity.
25:33And we've done it with other campaigns.
25:34For example, we've passed a law on child sexual grooming together with influencers and celebrities 10 years ago.
25:40So definitely 100% influencers have a huge role to play in the information ecosystem these days.
25:47And the message I would have to Malaysians and to influencers as well is we need to start building trust
25:52again.
25:52We've lost so much trust because we've placed so much, we've invested so much time into building up these social
25:58media platforms and their algorithms don't necessarily reward trust.
26:02So let's do things the right way, let's promote good values and regain the trust of the audience and we
26:08can build a country together from there.
26:10I'm very excited to see what this joint forces will come up with.
26:15But thank you so much for being on the show with me.
26:17I really appreciate your time.
26:19That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
26:21I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
26:23Thank you so much for watching.
26:24Good night.
26:32Good night.