- 6 weeks ago
In his conversation with India Today anchor Marya Shakil, former Home Minister P Chidambaram criticised what he described as the government’s current economic model, calling it a “default system” that lacks deep analysis and expert economic leadership.
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00:00P. Chidambaram unplugged and unapologetic
00:06Ex-Home Minister on Gen Z and Dimagi Naksal debate
00:10What is bothering in Gen Z is the poor quality of education.
00:19At the end of education, they have no jobs.
00:23The condition of the schools is terrible throughout the country.
00:28Powers must be given to the states.
00:31The states are closer to the ground.
00:33What can one education minister sitting in Delhi do about the state of education in India?
00:41P. Chidambaram on State of Indian Economy
00:47Candid, Confrontational Chidambaram
00:50Mr. Chidambaram, since you speak about the crisis of jobs
00:56and something that we saw play out also on the streets
00:59not just in Delhi
01:01the protests at Gen Z protests
01:04similar protests also happened in Jharkhand
01:07the concern is that the youth are now taking to streets
01:10because
01:11the crisis of jobs is real and it's staring at us
01:16what can be done, how do you address this crisis, how do you
01:20because this may have happened only in Delhi at Jhantar Mantar first
01:25and then of course it was similar protests we saw in several parts of India
01:29including Bihar, my home state
01:31but then sir, this is also something
01:35perhaps which is showcasing that India needs more
01:38that this crisis has to be addressed now
01:40Yes, we need more reforms
01:43every day
01:45every month, every hour
01:48we need more reforms
01:50nobody in this government
01:52is thinking of what to do
01:55in terms of reforms
01:57basic reforms
01:58not tinkering and
02:00mending here and stitching here
02:03basic reforms
02:04kind of basic reforms
02:08which Dr. Manmohan Singh introduced
02:11opening up the economy
02:14abolishing a lot of laws
02:18rewriting the regulations
02:20there is so much work to be done
02:23I can give you a facile, glib answer
02:26Mishiva's answer
02:27elect a non-BJP government
02:31They have a non-BJP government in Jharkhand
02:34the protests are continuing
02:36in fact, the anger is there against the government
02:38Yes, because states are crippled by lack of finances
02:44no state is solvent
02:46every state is buried under mountains of debt
02:52and if the state wants to do anything
02:57it has to get the approval of the central government
03:00practically in every field of activity
03:06the state has to get the central government's approval
03:11the central government is an immovable block
03:16there is no irresistible force to move that block
03:20the central government is an immovable block
03:24Sir, staying with the Gen Z question
03:26and you know it's clear that Gen Z is impatient
03:28as Maria was pointing out, it's impatient across the country
03:31it is not impatient with you know
03:33It's impatient with all political parties
03:36Yes
03:39Why is this?
03:40Is it because jobs have decreased
03:43IT which was a great engine for decades
03:46is not firing as much
03:47costs have gone up
03:49I hear young colleagues in our profession sir
03:52and you know who say that their dream of owning a house on their own
03:58is perhaps unachievable for them
04:00I didn't hear this 20 years ago
04:03What really is bothering Gen Z in your assessment?
04:06What is bothering in Gen Z is the poor quality of education
04:13at the end of education
04:17they have no jobs
04:18because half of them are unemployable in the present economy
04:24because they are not made educated and trained for the jobs that are available
04:31they are unemployable
04:33We are talking about not only graduates
04:36but there are several people who are not graduates
04:40who drop out at class 12, class 10, class 8
04:45There are many children who drop out at class 5
04:49Look at the state of education survey
04:54The drop out ratio increases from 5 to 8, 8 to 10 and 10 to 12
05:01We have to find jobs for all the people
05:05for different categories of people
05:09with different levels of education
05:12There are simply no jobs today
05:14and those who have jobs
05:16there is no wage increase at all
05:19I saw a statistic yesterday
05:24that rural jobs
05:30the casual and irregular jobs
05:33there has been no increase
05:35regular jobs
05:38the increase is 0.4%
05:41and the highly skilled jobs
05:46who pretend to do skilled blue collar work
05:51the wage increase is 0.7%
05:56if the economy is growing at 6.5, 6.8, 7%
06:01why are wages not increasing?
06:05So Mr. Chidamram, if there is a mismatch between education and job market
06:10which is evident
06:11then would you say that what is needed at the moment is
06:14more allocation in terms of budget for education
06:19and at the same time
06:21there is a thought that I have picked up from some analysts
06:24who are of the opinion
06:24that the political class right now
06:27is concentrating in increasing
06:28the number of seats in the Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha
06:32overall number of MPs in parliament
06:35they should be rather concentrating and ensuring
06:37that the same money is allocated
06:39in improving the condition of our schools
06:42the condition of the schools is terrible throughout the country
06:47it is slightly better in Tamil Nadu
06:50it is better in Kerala
06:53but I have visited several schools in Tamil Nadu
06:57and I am doing whatever I can do
07:01to improve the quality of schools in colleges
07:06but there are schools
07:08there are 6,000 schools with teachers
07:13no students
07:15there are 1,000,000 schools with a single teacher
07:19imagine a single teacher
07:221,000,000 schools
07:24what does the teacher do?
07:27what can she do?
07:28she can only make sure that the students get a midday meal
07:33how can she teach 5 classes?
07:36the minimum number of classes is 5
07:39primary school
07:40how can a single teacher teach 5 classes at the same time?
07:45is it a 3 ring circus?
07:48or a 5 ring circus?
07:52there are thousands of jobs
07:55of teachers in schools
07:58colleges
07:59universities
08:00universities
08:01I have got the numbers for university
08:03central universities
08:0530% of the jobs are vacant
08:08in Madras University
08:10I went to the Madras University
08:14Tamil Nadu has about
08:1714 or 15 vice chancellors
08:20universities
08:20there is only one university
08:22with a vice chancellor
08:23and she will retire
08:26at the end of this month
08:28the Madras University
08:30which is
08:31over 150 years old
08:33has not had a vice chancellor
08:34in 2 and a half years
08:363 years
08:38but how are you looking at these
08:40gen alpha protests?
08:42the gen alpha protests
08:44yes alpha protests
08:45for the students
08:46I mean young children
08:48taking up the issue
08:49that the infrastructure is poor
08:50there was an agitation
08:53there was an agitation
08:54in a girls college
08:55in my district headquarters
08:58Shavaganga
08:59they have been asking for classrooms
09:02the government does not make available classrooms
09:06therefore they boycotted
09:08the classes
09:09and locked the door
09:11and locked the gates
09:12etc
09:13they are protesting
09:14I don't know whether they are
09:16gen Z or gen alpha
09:17but gen alpha
09:19is also doing it in schools
09:21because the state of the schools
09:23is pitiable
09:24I have got
09:26Saurabh Sauchalaya
09:28is it?
09:28Sulabh Sauchalaya
09:30Sulabh Sauchalaya
09:32I have got Sulabh Sauchalaya
09:35to build toilets
09:36in several schools
09:37in my district
09:40because the government
09:42doesn't build the toilets
09:43they don't have money
09:45to build the toilets
09:48you see the first thing
09:49that should be done
09:50is
09:50we made a mistake
09:52I admit it
09:53the previous generation
09:55made a mistake
09:56I admit it
09:57we should decentralize education
09:59and leave it to the states
10:01the one entry in the constitution
10:04which empowers the central government
10:07is to run central universities
10:09that's a different matter
10:10but to lay the standards
10:12of university education
10:14but all powers must be given to the states
10:18the states are closer to the ground
10:20what can one education minister
10:23sitting in Delhi
10:24do about the state of education in India
10:27Sir very quickly
10:28therefore also decentralize testing
10:31because the NTA has had the art of
10:33NTA is in a country
10:36I mean whoever conceived of the idea
10:38that in a country so large as us
10:41and so many million students
10:43write exams
10:44and so many exams
10:46one agency
10:47can hold all these exams
10:49and what did that one agency do
10:52it had 26 permanent staff members
10:55all the rest were hired
10:57and temporary workers
10:5926 alone
11:01for the whole country
11:02you have a national testing agency
11:05we all think
11:07it's a great agency
11:08but it has 26 people
11:10I'm sure
11:11that number 26
11:14includes the permanent driver
11:16and the permanent
11:19Siddharth
11:19you know
11:21because I have a political question
11:22for Mr. Chidamra
11:24before we have
11:26when did you become
11:27political today
11:29sir I dabble between both
11:31so I'm proud to be
11:33a Dimagi Naksal
11:34those are your words sir
11:36yes
11:36and before I
11:38ask my question
11:39imagine if Dimagi Naksals
11:40got together
11:41what will happen to this country
11:43sir
11:43that statement of yours
11:46has made a former colleague
11:48of the Congress Party
11:50of your party
11:50and a present chief minister
11:52that why didn't you
11:54as the former home minister
11:57take action against Naksals
12:00and is there some kind of
12:02an understanding
12:02I've got a long list of actions
12:04which we took as
12:06against the Naksals
12:08in my three and a half years
12:11of home minister
12:12I can read it to you
12:14if you want
12:16I've got it on my phone
12:17but remember
12:21this guy
12:24Vijay Kumar
12:25Mr. Vijay Kumar
12:27who is a security advisor
12:29to successive governments
12:31who hunted down
12:33Veerappan
12:34who became a DGPN
12:36security advisor
12:37he wrote an article
12:39about six weeks ago
12:41saying that
12:44the anti-Naksalite movement
12:46started
12:48under Mr. Chidambaram
12:50and then it's continued
12:52under Mr. Shah
12:53you read that article
12:55and then
12:56Yashu Vazdan
12:57Azad
12:58is releasing his book
12:59on September 4
13:01he has a chapter
13:02on
13:03Naksalism
13:04what did
13:05what did we do
13:06under the
13:07anti-Naksal drive
13:08I can
13:09I can read out
13:11all that we did
13:12but suffice to say
13:14that one third
13:16of the
13:17CPI
13:18Morvest Politburo
13:19and one half
13:21of the central government
13:22were eliminated
13:23in those three and a half years
13:25that
13:26job continues
13:28I don't
13:30fault the government
13:31for continuing
13:32the job
13:33and more or less
13:34ending
13:35Naksalism
13:36but it started
13:38under
13:39my tenure
13:40in the
13:41UPA government
13:42over the last
13:43several months
13:44business today
13:45has been working
13:47on
13:48a very detailed
13:49analysis
13:50which takes
13:51stock of
13:52what has been
13:52India's manufacturing
13:54ecosystem
13:54progress
13:55over the past
13:56decade or so
13:59three parts
14:00to that research
14:01are states
14:02our districts
14:03and the companies
14:04that are driving
14:05India's manufacturing
14:06growth
14:08and what is lacking
14:09that has come
14:10together in an
14:11edition
14:11which we will
14:12subsequently request
14:13you to
14:14unveil and release
14:15as well
14:16but I want to
14:16begin this evening
14:18today by
14:18asking you
14:20about a
14:20broader point
14:21that is
14:22top of mind
14:23which is
14:24India's place
14:25in the global
14:26economy
14:26the current
14:28circumstances
14:29that we see
14:29globally
14:30what is happening
14:31in our domestic
14:32economy
14:33and I really
14:33wanted to
14:34begin by
14:35asking you
14:36is the
14:37current
14:38economic
14:39model
14:39enough
14:41to deliver
14:41quality
14:42growth
14:42and jobs
14:44and fulfill
14:45the aspirations
14:46of millions
14:47of young
14:48Indians
14:48sir
14:50you know
14:52the answer
14:52as well
14:53as I do
14:54the answer
14:55is
14:55no
15:00the current
15:01economic
15:02model
15:02is a default
15:04model
15:05it's not
15:07based on
15:09a deep
15:10analysis
15:11of the
15:13situation
15:14on the
15:15ground
15:15nor is
15:17it
15:17backed
15:18by
15:19economic
15:21knowledge
15:21and
15:21expertise
15:23please
15:24remember
15:25that however
15:27political
15:28politically
15:30strong
15:30the top
15:32executive
15:33is
15:33it still
15:35requires
15:36an economic
15:37brain
15:39Mr.
15:41Narsimarao
15:41was
15:42the
15:42political
15:43executive
15:44but the
15:45economic
15:45brain
15:46was
15:47Dr.
15:47Manmohan
15:47Singh
15:50I don't
15:51know
15:51whether
15:52the
15:53present
15:54Prime
15:54Minister
15:54should
15:56be
15:56compared
15:57with
15:57Mr.
15:59Narsimarao
16:00but there's
16:00certainly
16:01nobody
16:02I underline
16:04nobody
16:04in the
16:05government
16:06today
16:07that can
16:09compare
16:09with
16:10Dr.
16:11Manmohan
16:11Singh
16:11unless
16:13you
16:13have
16:14another
16:15economic
16:16expert
16:17and an
16:18economic
16:18brain
16:19which
16:20understands
16:21the world
16:22economy
16:22and the
16:23Indian
16:23economy
16:24theoretically
16:25and
16:28practically
16:29there's
16:30no way
16:31out of
16:31this
16:32situation
16:33this
16:36situation
16:36won't
16:37deliver
16:37growth
16:38we can
16:40boast
16:41of
16:41ourselves
16:42as the
16:43largest
16:44growing
16:44highest
16:46growing
16:47large
16:47economy
16:48that means
16:50nothing
16:53nor will
16:54it deliver
16:55jobs
16:57as the
16:58climate
16:58country
17:00reveals
17:02nor
17:03will it
17:04deliver
17:04quality
17:05infrastructure
17:09I can
17:10go on
17:10and on
17:11but I'll
17:12stop here
17:12Mr.
17:13Chidamram
17:13since you
17:14say that
17:14the government
17:15perhaps doesn't
17:16have anyone
17:18with the same
17:19economic heft
17:19or understanding
17:20as Dr.
17:21Manmohan Singh
17:22had
17:23but here is the
17:25government
17:25which has made
17:26manufacturing almost
17:27like a national
17:28priority
17:29they have spoken
17:30about
17:31make in India
17:33the prime minister
17:34increasingly is
17:35speaking about
17:36semiconductor plants
17:37and the
17:38initiatives
17:38which have
17:39been taken
17:39by the
17:39government
17:41aren't these
17:42efforts in the
17:43right direction
17:44then
17:44why do you
17:45stop with
17:46make in India
17:47there was
17:48make in India
17:49there was
17:50Atman
17:51Nirbarta
17:53there was
17:54PLI
17:55there was
17:56even a
17:58symbolic
17:58representation
17:59of make in
18:00India
18:00it was a
18:02tiger
18:02metallic
18:03tiger
18:04every one
18:05of them
18:06has failed
18:07the
18:08semiconda
18:09drive
18:11that they
18:11are giving
18:11is entirely
18:13out of
18:14public money
18:16do you know
18:17that the
18:18semiconda
18:18companies
18:20which are
18:21putting up
18:21semiconda
18:22plants
18:23are subsidised
18:24almost to
18:2680 to
18:2685 percent
18:27so it's
18:29public money
18:30not private
18:31money coming
18:34there's no
18:36great
18:37infrastructure
18:38that is
18:38being built
18:39we boast
18:41about the
18:42road
18:43infrastructure
18:44but only
18:46yesterday
18:46the
18:48Lucknow
18:49Allahabad
18:50road
18:51or something
18:51collapsed
18:52therefore
18:54where is
18:55the
18:56large
18:58plan
18:58large
18:59vision
19:00which
19:01Dr.
19:01Manmohan Singh
19:02introduced
19:03in 1991
19:05and
19:06given the
19:07coalition
19:08compulsion
19:09that he
19:10laid out
19:11for 2004
19:12to 2014
19:14where is
19:15the
19:16what is
19:18the result
19:18of all
19:19these
19:19initiatives
19:20manufacturing
19:21is stuck
19:22at
19:22today
19:2313.5
19:25or 14
19:25percent
19:27of GDP
19:29and that's
19:30not
19:32the proud
19:33product
19:34of all
19:35these
19:35initiatives
19:37Mr. Chidambaram
19:38when we speak
19:40with members
19:40of the government
19:41and there have
19:41been several
19:42who have been
19:42here on this
19:43very stage
19:44since the
19:44morning
19:45they speak
19:46about the
19:46PLI scheme
19:47which you
19:47refer to
19:48they speak
19:48about tax
19:49reforms
19:49GST
19:50corporate tax
19:51rate cuts
19:51recent personal
19:53tax
19:54rationalisation
19:54and they say
19:55that all of
19:56this is
19:57designed
19:57to strengthen
19:58India's
19:59manufacturing
19:59ecosystem
20:00and the
20:01results
20:01will come
20:02yet we
20:03equally see
20:04Mr. Chidambaram
20:04that private
20:05investment
20:06remains cautious
20:07foreign capital
20:08inflows
20:09and you have
20:09recently also
20:10touched upon
20:12this subject
20:13the question
20:14sir is that
20:14is our
20:15challenge
20:16what is really
20:17our challenge
20:17is it about
20:18less policy
20:19announcement
20:20and better
20:21execution
20:23and certainty
20:24to build
20:25confidence
20:26in foreign
20:26investors
20:27what exactly
20:27is the
20:28challenge
20:28the challenge
20:31is sound
20:33economic
20:34thinking
20:36before
20:37behind each
20:39initiative
20:39so today
20:41the Indian
20:42economy
20:43and capital
20:46investment
20:47is trapped
20:48in a square
20:50or rectangle
20:52one line
20:53is
20:54regulations
20:55do you know
20:56that
20:57the rules
20:58and regulations
20:59today
21:00on the statute
21:01book
21:02are worse
21:03than
21:03what it was
21:04in 1991
21:06I pointed
21:08out to the
21:08then governor
21:10of reserve
21:11bank
21:11I don't
21:12why do you
21:14keep these
21:16RBI
21:16regulations
21:17they are
21:18meaningless
21:19they are
21:22mindless
21:23they are
21:23mind boggling
21:24he said
21:25he will have
21:26to appoint
21:26a committee
21:27etc etc
21:28it didn't
21:29happen
21:30electricity
21:32a subject
21:33with which
21:34I am
21:35familiar with
21:36do you know
21:37there are
21:3730 state
21:38regulators
21:39and each
21:40one makes
21:41this regulation
21:41as a result
21:43you know
21:45that the
21:46solar power
21:4735%
21:48of solar
21:48power
21:49is stranded
21:49therefore
21:51I can go
21:52sector
21:53by sector
21:54there is
21:55no economic
21:56thinking
21:56there is no
21:57economic plan
21:58there is no
21:59economic design
22:00it's trapped
22:02between
22:02regulation
22:03on the one
22:04hand
22:06investigation
22:07and
22:08enforcement
22:09on the
22:10other
22:11the other
22:12is
22:13crony
22:14capitalism
22:16and the
22:17bottom
22:18line
22:18is
22:19bureaucratic
22:20hurdles
22:21in this
22:23square
22:23or rectangle
22:25it's
22:25trapped
22:27are you
22:28therefore
22:28saying sir
22:29that
22:29license
22:30Raj
22:31or
22:31pre
22:311991
22:32control
22:33Raj
22:33is
22:34back
22:34it's
22:35practically
22:36back
22:36it's not
22:37a controlled
22:38Raj
22:38it's not
22:39license
22:40and
22:40controlled
22:41Raj
22:42it's
22:43rule and
22:44regulation
22:44Raj
22:45the names
22:46have changed
22:46but they
22:47are as
22:48formidable
22:50and as
22:50forbidding
22:51as the
22:52old
22:53license
22:53and controlled
22:54Raj
22:54then
22:55what
22:56really
22:57is
22:57the
22:57future
22:58of
22:58all
22:58these
22:59foreign
23:00trade
23:00agreements
23:00which
23:01are
23:01being
23:01inked
23:03where
23:04have
23:04we
23:05where
23:06have
23:06we
23:06concluded
23:06with
23:07four
23:08of
23:09I
23:09think
23:09the
23:10last
23:10count
23:11I
23:11think
23:12the
23:13commerce
23:13minister
23:14says
23:15he's
23:15signed
23:16five
23:17FTAs
23:18but
23:19who
23:19are
23:19these
23:20FTAs
23:20with
23:21is it
23:23our
23:23major
23:23trading
23:24partner
23:26there's
23:27one
23:27with
23:27a
23:28major
23:28trading
23:29partner
23:29but
23:30that
23:31is
23:31the
23:31European
23:32Union
23:32I
23:32think
23:32it's
23:33false
23:33far
23:34short
23:35of
23:35what
23:35we
23:35desire
23:36but
23:37all
23:37the
23:37rest
23:37are
23:38with
23:38minor
23:39trading
23:39partners
23:40where
23:41is
23:41the
23:42FTI
23:42with
23:43US
23:43where
23:44is
23:45the
23:45FTA
23:46with
23:47France
23:49Germany
23:49etc
23:51there's
23:52no
23:53FTA
23:53with
23:53China
23:54so
23:55the
23:55major
23:56trading
23:56partners
23:57we have
23:57not
23:58concluded
23:58an
23:59FTA
23:59yet
23:59and
24:00we
24:01are
24:01not
24:01likely
24:02to
24:02conclude
24:02because
24:03their
24:04leaders
24:05are
24:06worse
24:08than
24:08our
24:08leaders
24:10how
24:10do
24:11you
24:11conclude
24:13FTA
24:14with
24:14US
24:15with
24:16a
24:16whimsical
24:17president
24:19how
24:20do
24:20you
24:20conclude
24:21FTA
24:22with
24:23China
24:23with
24:26veil of
24:27secrecy
24:28over
24:28the
24:29Chinese
24:30economy
24:31therefore
24:33I don't
24:33think
24:33I don't
24:35set
24:35much
24:36door
24:36with
24:36FTAs
24:38I don't
24:39government
24:39and
24:40commerce
24:40minister
24:41Piyush
24:41Goel
24:41have
24:42spoken
24:43particularly
24:43about
24:44one
24:44trade
24:44agreement
24:44which
24:45is
24:45with
24:45the
24:45four
24:45European
24:46nations
24:47including
24:47Norway
24:48and
24:48Sweden
24:48and
24:48they
24:49say
24:49that
24:49this
24:49is
24:49the
24:50first
24:50FTA
24:50where
24:51hundred
24:52billion
24:52investment
24:53will
24:54come
24:54in
24:54they
24:55have
24:55agreed
24:55to
24:55that
24:56they
24:56have
24:56promised
24:56that
24:56these
24:57nations
24:57will
24:57invest
24:58in
24:58India
24:58is
24:59that
24:59not
24:59substantial
24:59enough
25:00let
25:01it
25:01come
25:01first
25:02what
25:02is
25:03our
25:03trade
25:03with
25:03Norway
25:04what
25:05is
25:05our
25:05trade
25:05with
25:06Sweden
25:07it's
25:08miniscule
25:09they
25:10are
25:10small
25:10countries
25:11with
25:11small
25:12populations
25:12with
25:13a
25:13large
25:14per
25:14capita
25:15income
25:15but
25:16their
25:16capacity
25:17to
25:17trade
25:17is
25:19nothing
25:20besides
25:21our
25:22hunger
25:22to
25:23trade
25:23our
25:25hunger
25:25is
25:25gargantuan
25:26hunger
25:27gigantic
25:28hunger
25:29they
25:30can't
25:34satisfy
25:35our
25:35hunger
25:35but
25:36they
25:37are
25:37small
25:37countries
25:38with
25:38small
25:38trade