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00:00As a Prime Minister, you have to have a story.
00:02You have to be able to think what's wrong with the country
00:04and how are the things that I'm going to do
00:06going to solve people's main issues and tell a story.
00:09I felt that's what Starmer tried to do and then go,
00:11well, why don't we have a great story?
00:12It's because you're a bit of a political vacuum.
00:15The reality is it's much easier for everybody in the room
00:19if it's a comms problem.
00:20The ones that used to always drive me slightly crackers
00:23would be the self-inflicted wounds that you would often have.
00:26And I think for me, the ones that stand out,
00:28particularly during COVID,
00:30Boris sort of squinting his eyes being like,
00:31ah, commissar, it's a comms problem,
00:33one that I'm sure you can resolve.
00:35And I remember saying that, you know,
00:37this won't last 24 hours.
00:42Welcome to In The Room, lessons from number 10.
00:45It's our summer series on what it's like
00:47to work behind that famous black front door.
00:49My name's Cleo Watson.
00:51I used to be a special advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
00:53And I'm Helen McNamara, the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
00:56And this week, we're very excited to be joined by Lee Cain.
00:59He started as a tabloid journalist
01:00when he briefly became famous
01:03for wearing the Daily Mirror's chicken costume
01:05covering David Cameron.
01:07And then he went on to become
01:08Boris Johnson's Director of Communications in Downing Street.
01:11Lee was a key figure in the Vote Leave campaign.
01:13He helped to shape the Conservatives'
01:15general election victory in 2019.
01:17And he was the Director of Communications in Downing Street
01:20during the COVID pandemic
01:21and responsible for some of the clearest
01:23and most effective political messaging in the modern age.
01:26Lee, welcome to In The Room.
01:29Thank you for having me.
01:30Thank you for coming along.
01:31Very brave of you.
01:32Let's start at the beginning,
01:33before the rows, before COVID,
01:36before indeed Downing Street
01:37and your first career, if that's OK.
01:42So you obviously became
01:44one of the most powerful figures in government
01:47when you became Director of Communications.
01:49But you had a little stint in a chicken costume
01:52for the lawyer.
01:53Glorious stint, I would argue.
01:54And you cut your teeth, I believe,
01:55at the Gloucester Citizen.
01:56And I know that because our producer is from Gloucester
01:59and he was an avid reader.
02:02What did you understand about political comms
02:04before you came into the job?
02:05And then what surprised you once you got there?
02:08Very little, I would say,
02:09in terms of political comms.
02:11You know, my background was a journalist
02:14from, let's say,
02:15I actually started on the Leak Post and Times
02:18in the Staffshire Moorlands,
02:19which was a fantastic local paper.
02:21They had like nine or ten journalists
02:23on this once-a-week local paper.
02:25In Leak, really?
02:25In Leak Post.
02:26It's a fantastic, fantastic time.
02:28Lots of long lunches.
02:29Wonderful.
02:30And then sort of moved through various local papers
02:33and news agencies
02:34and then on to nationals.
02:36But just a, I was a news reporter.
02:40Very much like, if you remember the,
02:41for your, if any, older listeners here,
02:43the pigs in Spitting Image,
02:44where they used to wear sort of old trench coats
02:47and hats with press in it
02:49and then they'd sort of run round
02:50after celebrities and things.
02:51That was quite, I spent a lot of time for.
02:53So it was not the sort of strategic,
02:57political comms that I would come to enjoy,
02:59much more about news cycles
03:01and sort of daily tactics.
03:02What is a good story, fundamentally?
03:05How do you write a good story?
03:06What grabs the attention of a reader?
03:09It was much more focused on those things
03:10as opposed to the strategic roles
03:12that I would go into.
03:14Can I just ask you,
03:15how did you go from that
03:15into working for Boris Johnson?
03:18Yeah, I'm not sure myself sometimes, actually.
03:20It sort of, it was quite a pivot.
03:23I remember I was working for a rather sleepy law firm
03:28in PR to try and pay off the huge amounts of debt
03:32I'd managed to get from university
03:33and other such things.
03:36And I saw an advert for the Vote Leave
03:38as some sort of media officer
03:40and sent a CV and assumed
03:42that I would have no chance of being sifted for that.
03:45You'd have to have sort of contacts and networks
03:47and all those other such things.
03:48Not realising that nobody in politics
03:51was going to work for Vote Leave
03:52because it was seen as a bit of sort of career suicide.
03:55It was only real...
03:56Yeah, here we are.
03:57It's worth it okay for you two.
03:59I think it was only true believers who were there.
04:02So they didn't have huge numbers of people.
04:06And I think, you know, Dominic, who he worked with,
04:08is probably a lot more open to external people
04:11from outside the Westminster bubble.
04:13So there was an opportunity there.
04:15And from that moment, things just tend to happen.
04:18It was a bit of a whirlwind.
04:20Well, famously, Vote Leave, where we both worked
04:23and where we met,
04:25had incredible message discipline.
04:28What else did you learn from that campaign
04:30that you then were able to take into your later career?
04:34One of the things that I think Dominic instilled
04:36in everybody on that campaign
04:37is to be incredibly voter-focused.
04:39We knew, you know, who was our audience,
04:42what to say, how to say it,
04:44who to say it to,
04:45in order to sort of build the broadest possible coalition
04:48for what we were trying to communicate.
04:50And I think I learned pretty much everything
04:53that was worth learning
04:53in the sort of four or five months
04:55during that campaign.
04:57Why is it that a campaign like that
04:59seems to be able to achieve things
05:01that a government press office can't seem to manage?
05:04So we have a new prime minister at the moment
05:07who seems to want to do communications differently,
05:09but he's sort of come in as a campaigner
05:11and now he's the prime minister.
05:14What's your take on the idea of being,
05:16you know, an insurgent campaigner
05:18versus actually the establishment
05:20and government comms always just seems more difficult?
05:24We only had, I think,
05:25eight people on the comms team at VoteLeave.
05:27It's an incredibly small number
05:28where if you look at, say,
05:29something like the Home Office
05:31or, you know,
05:32whatever the business department's
05:34going to be called these days,
05:35you know, you're looking at 250 comms people plus.
05:38It's an extraordinary amount of people
05:39and there will be some great talent in there,
05:42but it's just far too many people,
05:45undefined roles, undefined goals.
05:47So it often just gets lost.
05:49They don't really know who they're talking to.
05:51A lot of the platforms, you know,
05:52we have hundreds of campaigns
05:54that don't really have metrics
05:56of who we're trying to talk to,
05:57what behavior change do we want,
05:58what are the outcomes we're looking to change.
06:00And I think even in somewhere like number 10
06:02where it's a much smaller team
06:03than around the rest of government,
06:05one of the core elements is like,
06:07what are we trying to do?
06:08What is the big problem
06:09that it's facing the country?
06:10What are our priorities?
06:11How are we remaining focused on those?
06:13And what's the sort of moral story
06:14we're looking to tell?
06:16Even with Andy Burnham now,
06:17I think there's some really good content
06:19and it's, you know,
06:20it's interesting content,
06:21but, you know, again,
06:22what's the moral story
06:23they're trying to say?
06:25How will all of those pieces,
06:27you know, piece together?
06:27It's all very tactical.
06:29I'm not seeing a huge amount
06:30of like long-term strategic communications.
06:32There's plenty of time for that to come,
06:34but I think that's the core thing
06:37of like, what is the focus?
06:37What are you actually trying to do
06:39ahead of whenever the next election is?
06:41How do you want people to think
06:42of, you know, you and your government?
06:45And I think that's still unclear.
06:46I do remember that
06:47one of the conversations you and I had,
06:49it was during COVID,
06:50but COVID was one of those experiences
06:51in government where,
06:52as well as all of the kind of shocking things
06:54about the pandemic,
06:55it showed you some shocking things
06:56about your own government
06:57that you worked in.
06:59I remember you had some really brilliant plans
07:00for kind of actually
07:01what we would do about comms
07:02because we had discovered
07:03far too late in the day
07:04that the government system
07:06just wasn't set up
07:06to actually talk to actual people.
07:08I remember sitting there in the office
07:10with like all of the maps
07:11of how many people there were
07:12to your point
07:13of working in different
07:14government departments
07:15on the comms,
07:16kind of so-called on comms.
07:18You just think
07:18we've actually institutionalised
07:20these people just briefing
07:21against each other
07:21as well as we've created this machine
07:23that occupies all the space
07:25and tells stories
07:26against itself all the time.
07:27If you look at
07:28the Government Communication Service,
07:30which is the GCS for short,
07:33that, when I started,
07:35I was told by the Executive Director
07:37who's actually in charge
07:38of the Government Communications.
07:39So I would often get the blame
07:41for Government Communications
07:42but controlled about 5% of it.
07:44The whole section is run
07:46by the sort of
07:46within the Civil Service.
07:48That's what we like
07:49having political people.
07:50Yeah, exactly.
07:51Helpful lightning rods.
07:52Helpful lightning rods.
07:53But, you know,
07:54I was told there was 4,000 people
07:55working in Government Comms
07:56so I asked for an audit
07:58and then it was,
07:59oh, actually there's 8,000 people,
08:00which I still think
08:01is probably an underball.
08:03And then, you know,
08:04we have to say,
08:04actually, well,
08:05let's look at how we can make
08:05this more efficient,
08:06more effective.
08:07And it's like,
08:07well, we can't lose
08:08a single person
08:09was what came back.
08:10And it's like,
08:10well, we just found 4,000 people
08:12we didn't know existed
08:12three days ago.
08:13So it can't be that critical.
08:15But that was,
08:16and there was a real hostility
08:17for trying to streamline
08:19in a way in a corporate sense
08:20you would never get.
08:22You know,
08:22it's all about
08:22how we can be more efficient.
08:24There is no upshot
08:25in Government
08:26to be more efficient.
08:27It's actually,
08:27you become a bit of a lightning rod
08:29for people
08:29if you start saying,
08:30well, we should be more efficient.
08:31I remember, you know,
08:32in the previous Starmer administration,
08:34there was a whole thing
08:35about how we're going
08:36to streamline GCS
08:37and all these exciting comms
08:38things we're going to do.
08:38As far as I'm aware,
08:39none of it has happened.
08:40And it'd be interesting
08:41to see what focus
08:42communications has
08:43in the new government.
08:44I suspect we're going to see
08:45just a lot more people hired
08:47in different titles.
08:49And I think we were talking
08:50earlier on about
08:51all of the new digital people
08:52that are coming on board.
08:54And more people
08:55does not necessarily mean
08:56better quality comms.
08:58And I think I'd have fewer people
08:59trained to a higher standard.
09:01would be what I'd focus on more.
09:02It certainly doesn't give you
09:03that big story
09:04or the reason for being
09:05or any of those other things.
09:06Well, that's again,
09:07that's a very different thing.
09:08And it's quite funny.
09:09I remember with Starmer
09:10and we're sort of going off
09:11down a sort of Labour avenue.
09:13But I think with Starmer,
09:14there was an awful lot of talk
09:15about, you know,
09:16bad comms
09:17and these more comms people
09:18and, you know,
09:19some very capable comms people.
09:21But your comms people
09:23won't develop your story for you.
09:25As a prime minister,
09:26you have to have a story.
09:27You have to be able to think
09:28what's wrong with the country
09:29and how, you know,
09:31how are the things
09:31that I'm going to do
09:32going to solve people's main issues
09:33and tell a story.
09:35That's not something you offset
09:36for someone else to do.
09:38They can turn your ideas
09:39and thoughts
09:39and everything else
09:40into a, you know,
09:41powerful, emotive story.
09:42But you can't offset that.
09:44And I felt that's what Starmer
09:44tried to do
09:45and then go,
09:45well, why don't we have
09:46a great story?
09:47It's because you're a bit
09:48of a political vacuum.
09:50So, again,
09:50it'd be interesting
09:51to see what Burnham's story is
09:52and if he tries to tackle that.
09:53And I think he probably will
09:54because he seems more in tune
09:55with, you know,
09:56that element
09:57and having a story
09:58to tell to the country.
09:59Very quickly,
10:00can you talk about
10:01your expectations
10:02of going into number 10?
10:04You came off the back
10:05of a big leadership contest,
10:06which Andy Burnham
10:07has happily not had to fight.
10:09And then there you were
10:11in Downing Street.
10:12What were you expecting
10:13and then what was the reality?
10:14I had a bit of a view already
10:16because I'd worked briefly
10:17in number 10
10:18under Theresa May,
10:19which, with you as well,
10:21which you've clearly forgotten.
10:23I forgot, Matt.
10:25I was, I, well,
10:26because I'd been working
10:27with Michael Gove
10:28in DEFRA
10:28and the then director
10:30of comms, Robbie Gibb,
10:31asked me to come on board
10:32and work with,
10:33on Theresa's team.
10:34And I was like,
10:35media spad.
10:35Do what?
10:36I was like media spad
10:37number 15, you know.
10:38I literally don't remember that.
10:39That's terrible.
10:40Yeah.
10:40One of the 8,000.
10:42I was there quite briefly.
10:43I was there two or three months
10:44and felt things weren't great
10:47and that the political strategy
10:49they had over Brexit
10:50was going to go off a cliff.
10:51And an opportunity came
10:52to work with Boris.
10:53So then I moved over
10:55to the Foreign Office
10:55and went to work with Boris.
10:57But I'd spent a couple of months
10:58in number 10
10:59and had a bit of a feel
11:00for the structures.
11:01So I wasn't totally blinded.
11:03Oh, so did you have your eye
11:04on that big office?
11:06Yeah, I did.
11:06Yeah, I did.
11:07Well, do you know,
11:08I never wanted to do
11:09the press secretary job,
11:10which probably would have been
11:12the natural fit
11:13when I was, you know,
11:14after that leadership campaign.
11:15But I made a very strong pitch
11:18to take the director of comms job
11:19because the press secretary job
11:21is awful
11:22because every day
11:23you are just harangued
11:25by the lobby
11:26and have to, you know,
11:27be grilled.
11:28And it's quite an unforgiving arena
11:31where the director of comms
11:32hangs with the prime minister
11:34in Gordon Brown's office
11:36thinks big thoughts
11:37in this beautiful,
11:39large oak panelled room
11:40with sort of sofa
11:41and large mahogany desk.
11:44Overlooking the garden.
11:45It's by far the most beautiful office
11:46in Downing Street.
11:47Bulletproof windows as well,
11:48someone told me.
11:48I don't know if that's true.
11:49You probably know better than I do.
11:50Some of them were.
11:51Fantastic.
11:52So you didn't know
11:52which one was the last one.
11:55Crikey.
11:56So I had a vague idea
11:58of what to expect.
11:59I think even in that sort of
12:01interim period though,
12:02what was for me surprising
12:04when you came in,
12:05there was no digital function really
12:08to speak of.
12:09There was no broadcast function.
12:13I think the previous directors of comms
12:15had come from the BBC
12:17so had sort of taken quite out of the weight
12:19like, you know,
12:20obviously Craig Oliver and Robbie Gibb.
12:21They'd taken a bit of the weight
12:22of the broadcast on them
12:23but there was no institutional
12:25broadcast expertise.
12:28Everything was set up
12:29to feed and appease the print lobby
12:32which, you know,
12:34you obviously have to feed the beast
12:35but it felt to me
12:36that if Alistair Campbell
12:37would have walked in
12:38on that day in 2019,
12:39it would have felt very similar
12:41to what he had in 1997.
12:44To a degree,
12:45I don't think it would have felt
12:46especially different to Bernard Ingham.
12:48You know,
12:49and when you think
12:50in the period of time,
12:51say, you know, 1997
12:52to, you know,
12:542019,
12:54how different the means
12:56of communication
12:57were in the country,
12:58how people were getting their news.
13:00It's extraordinary
13:01to think how far
13:02government comms
13:04lags behind that
13:06and it's still to catch up,
13:08I would argue.
13:08I think we move things on a bit.
13:11I think COVID,
13:12one of, you know,
13:12one of the things
13:13we were able to do in COVID
13:14was really turbocharge
13:15some of that stuff,
13:15particularly on the digital side
13:17but it's still lagging behind
13:18what you would expect
13:19for, you know,
13:20for Downing Street.
13:21Well, come on,
13:21Keir Starmer's got a substack,
13:23so.
13:24Fantastic.
13:25We all wish we had a substack.
13:27On the cusp of things.
13:29So, take us back
13:30into your time
13:31in number 10 then, Lee.
13:33Can you give us
13:34a bit of a flavour
13:35about what it was like?
13:36What's a genuinely bad day?
13:38How did your days work?
13:39And give us an example
13:40of a bad one.
13:41I mean,
13:41they're all bad days.
13:43I mean,
13:44there's just,
13:44there's degrees
13:45of bad days,
13:46I would argue.
13:47They are,
13:47I think,
13:48you know,
13:48I would broadly be up
13:50about sort of five,
13:51half five,
13:52because I'm still
13:53quite old-fashioned.
13:54We used to have the papers
13:54delivered to my house
13:55so I'd sort of
13:56go through those
13:57and listen to the sort of
13:58headlines in the morning.
13:59You'd have
14:00multiple WhatsApps
14:01to get through
14:02and, you know,
14:02sort of trying to juggle that
14:03with a,
14:04getting a small child
14:06ready for school
14:06and all those other things.
14:07Phones, you know,
14:08so you have all of that
14:08before you leave.
14:09I would aim to get into the office
14:10for about half seven.
14:12We'd have a team meeting
14:13in the comm side.
14:14Then you have,
14:14you know,
14:15the sort of senior team
14:17meeting pre-PM meeting
14:18and you go through it
14:19like just all days
14:20meeting,
14:20meeting,
14:21meeting,
14:21meeting.
14:22Your phone's always going crazy
14:23and I would normally finish,
14:25I'd tank out between
14:26sort of like nine and ten,
14:27dependent.
14:28You watch the ten o'clock news,
14:29you deal with some more
14:30and it's just this relentless
14:32cycle on a daily basis
14:34and I think it's Obama
14:35who always said,
14:36you know,
14:36the problem with those
14:37sorts of jobs is
14:37you only deal with
14:38the hardest problems
14:39because if they weren't
14:41the hardest problems
14:41they'd have been solved
14:42somewhere else.
14:43So everything's a really
14:44difficult sort of
14:4550-50 political call
14:47but then there are moments
14:48that are,
14:48you know,
14:49even worse than the bad days
14:51and the ones that used
14:52to always sort of drive me
14:53slightly crackers
14:54would be the self-inflicted
14:55wounds that you would
14:56often have
14:57and I think for me
14:58the ones that stand out
14:59were particularly during
15:00COVID.
15:00I remember very early on
15:04when we were looking
15:05if you were in this meeting
15:06but when we were looking
15:06to deal with the rising
15:10R-rate
15:10and we had a meeting
15:11with the Department of Health,
15:13the Treasury and Number 10
15:15and it was suggested
15:17that we should close
15:18pubs and clubs
15:19because they are a,
15:20you know,
15:21vector for social mixing
15:23so there's a lot of fun.
15:25I think that's what
15:25the youth call them.
15:27Yeah, yeah.
15:28So people go,
15:29they mix it
15:29obviously at high rates
15:30and they're drunk as well
15:33and there's a,
15:34you know,
15:34comparatively smaller
15:35economic benefit
15:36so the Department of Health
15:37like this is an area
15:38we think we should close first.
15:39The Treasury,
15:41ironically now looking back
15:42we're like
15:43absolutely insane.
15:44We can't close any part
15:46of the economy.
15:46This would be crazy.
15:48You know,
15:48we'd have to bail them out.
15:49It's absolutely a disaster.
15:50We can't do it
15:50and somebody
15:51from the Mated,
15:52I think it might have been Boris,
15:53I can't remember
15:54but somebody said
15:56I know what we should do.
15:57We should
15:58leave the pubs and clubs open
16:00but we should tell people
16:01not to go to them
16:02because it's dangerous.
16:03Oh, I remember that.
16:04Right?
16:04Yeah.
16:05And I remember
16:07it's just such
16:07a bonkers thing to do.
16:09I remember looking
16:10at James Slack
16:10who was the
16:12wonderful
16:13official spokesman
16:14on the civil service side
16:15and he had the same
16:16look of horror
16:17in his eyes
16:18that I did
16:18knowing that he was going
16:19to have to try
16:19and explain this
16:20to the media
16:21and I remember saying
16:23as my sort of role
16:24as a sort of political
16:25Cassandra at the time
16:27that perhaps
16:28this wasn't the best
16:28of all worlds
16:29that it was being spun
16:30in this room.
16:30It was possibly
16:31the worst of all worlds
16:32because the pubs and clubs
16:34will howl
16:34and demand a bailout still
16:36because fewer people
16:38are going to be going
16:38because we're telling
16:39everybody not to
16:41and on the flip side
16:42we're going to have a situation
16:43where the R rate
16:44is still going to grow
16:45because some people
16:45will be going
16:46so we're not going
16:46to control the virus
16:47so we're going to get
16:48all the pain
16:48and none of the benefit
16:50to which sort of
16:52Boris sort of squinting
16:53his eyes being like
16:53ah commissar
16:54it's a comms problem
16:55one that I'm sure
16:56you can resolve
16:58and I remember saying
16:59that this won't last
17:0124 hours
17:01we will not hold
17:02this position
17:02because people
17:03will simply ask
17:04if people shouldn't go
17:05which you're suggesting
17:06why don't we close
17:07the pubs and clubs
17:08why aren't we doing that
17:09what's our answer
17:11so we'd go through that
17:12and then 12 hours later
17:14there'd be a whole series
17:15of stories being like
17:16how the government
17:16comms is a mess
17:17and they don't know
17:18what they're doing
17:18and isn't it a disaster
17:19we would U-turn
17:20because that's what
17:22happened quite frequently
17:23at that point
17:23so we'd U-turn very quickly
17:25Boris would lament
17:26the whole thing
17:27and say
17:27how do we get in this idea
17:28I never thought
17:29I'd ever want to do this
17:30how did we end up
17:31in this position
17:32and then the papers
17:33would write pieces
17:34about how we needed
17:35a new comms team
17:36because they were clearly
17:36out their depth
17:37and they didn't know
17:38what they were doing
17:38and it would
17:39ring the mirror chickens
17:41it would drive you
17:43bonkers
17:44because it was so
17:46avoidable
17:46and it was just
17:47a slow moving car crash
17:48and that did happen
17:49particularly at the start
17:50of Covid
17:50it happened quite a few times
17:52luckily I think
17:53once
17:54even in politics
17:55once people
17:56make the same mistake
17:57over and over again
17:58they did start listening
18:00I think to the
18:00comms professionals
18:01in there
18:02and start going
18:02actually we could
18:03probably save ourselves
18:05some pain here
18:06but that happened
18:08more often
18:08than I would care for
18:09every time you say
18:10it's a comms problem
18:11I can see the slight
18:12grimace on your face
18:13because that is the thing
18:14that we used to all
18:15sit in rooms
18:15and raise eyebrows at
18:18talk us about why
18:19that is not usually
18:20the answer
18:21well it's
18:22yeah I mean
18:23it became a running joke
18:24in our administration
18:25didn't it
18:26the reality is
18:29is it's much easier
18:30for everybody
18:31in the room
18:32if it's a comms problem
18:33so if there is a
18:35strategic position
18:36that is taken
18:36by the government
18:37and there is a policy
18:38and it's usually
18:38the prime minister
18:39if you're you know
18:40in the cabinet room
18:41the prime minister
18:42is probably alighted
18:43on a particular policy
18:44and it's a disaster
18:45it's much easier
18:46for everyone
18:46to turn around
18:47and go
18:47oh actually
18:48the brilliant policy
18:49is not the problem
18:50the problem is just
18:51how we're explaining
18:52that particular policy
18:53that's where it is
18:54because it's much easier
18:55for everyone to go
18:55oh it's your fault
18:56it's the comms person
18:57if you turn around
18:58and go actually
18:58the policy is to blame
18:59well then we've all
19:00got to sit there
19:01and look at
19:01who's developed
19:02that policy
19:02so there's a
19:04there's a
19:04there's a very rational
19:05reason why everybody
19:06just keeps blaming comms
19:07and then after
19:08three or four times
19:09of sacking your comms
19:10people people
19:10kind of go
19:10oh maybe
19:11maybe just the principles
19:12are duffer
19:13I do also remember
19:14that and that
19:15to your point about
19:15in number 10
19:16you don't get to
19:17kind of make the easy choice
19:18you only get to make
19:18the difficult choice
19:19that quite often
19:20I definitely used to
19:21tactically use
19:22the comms
19:23try and get the comms team
19:24if I knew a policy
19:24was a disaster
19:25and a really bad idea
19:26and was going to be impossible
19:27you try and get the comms team
19:28to kill it
19:29sooner rather than later
19:30by just doing the practical
19:31this doesn't work
19:32I can't explain it
19:33there aren't three sentences
19:34you can string together
19:35that make this possible
19:37I remember distinctly
19:38listening into a phone call
19:39in the 2019
19:40general election
19:41when the conservatives
19:43had a candidate
19:44who inevitably
19:45had said some
19:46very unfortunate things
19:47Boris Johnson
19:48did not want to
19:49jettison this guy
19:50as a candidate
19:51and there was a long
19:51pause on the call
19:52and I just heard you say
19:54okay okay boss
19:55well let's pretend
19:56that you're going
19:57on the Today programme
19:58tomorrow on Radio 4
20:00question one
20:02do you think
20:02it is acceptable
20:03to use the following language
20:04and you just heard
20:06this sort of hissing
20:06as he sucked his teeth
20:07and he was like
20:08oh god
20:09gotta get rid of him
20:11and being able
20:12to use comms
20:13like that
20:14in quite a defensive move
20:15it was comms jujitsu
20:18well I think
20:19you know
20:19I think he was getting
20:20quite a lot of pressure
20:22from other quarters
20:22of the campaign
20:23to hold on to candidates
20:25and you know
20:26it was a ridiculous
20:26position to be in
20:27and I think
20:28I remember at the time
20:29there was a good
20:30half a dozen
20:31women on the campaign
20:32who were threatening
20:32to quit
20:33because it was
20:33an appalling thing
20:34the guy had said
20:35and he should have
20:36clearly gone
20:36and I think sometimes
20:38just bringing that
20:38into the light
20:40and saying
20:40well you can go
20:41and defend it
20:41then I think
20:42people then have
20:42a slightly different
20:43vantage point
20:44when it's kind of like
20:45oh I have to go
20:46and talk about this
20:47and you know
20:48so yeah
20:49you can use comms
20:50for good
20:50on occasion
20:51which is nice
20:52comms for good
20:53that's a lovely phrase
20:54there's a book
20:56bestseller
20:58I've been wondering
20:59though
20:59I mean we've seen
21:00Andy Burnham
21:00who's just come in
21:01and there's been
21:02much excitement
21:03because he's doing
21:03comms differently
21:04they send emails
21:06at 6am
21:06instead of midnight
21:08to embargo stories
21:09and make things
21:10more difficult
21:10for newspapers
21:12for example
21:13lots of directors
21:14of communications
21:15come in
21:16and do new things
21:17I remember
21:17in February 2020
21:19under your stewardship
21:21we were going to
21:22have a different way
21:22of running the lobby
21:23so that instead of
21:24being a kind of
21:25behind closed doors
21:26briefing
21:27that the public
21:28are not party to
21:29you're going to
21:30build a multimedia suite
21:31and have a kind of
21:31White House style
21:32you did build it
21:33and then use it
21:35straight away
21:35almost
21:36yes well then
21:37yeah we had to
21:37use it for COVID
21:38in the end
21:38but the idea
21:40was to essentially
21:40level the playing field
21:42on lobby briefing
21:44so that the public
21:45could see the questions
21:46being asked
21:46and how they were
21:47being answered
21:49that didn't work
21:50there was a boycott
21:51by the lobby
21:52to this plan
21:54why is it
21:55that so many
21:57directors of communications
21:58want to come
21:59and do something new
22:00and then ultimately fail
22:01I mean firstly
22:03the lobby didn't
22:03boycott it
22:04the lobby
22:04were broadly fine
22:06because they then
22:06get to go on TV
22:07and be minor celebrities
22:09which was kind of
22:09one of the worries
22:10with the plan
22:12it didn't happen
22:14because I think
22:15there was a lot of
22:16I think at editor level
22:18people sort of
22:19spooked the PM
22:20at the time
22:20to say
22:21oh that you know
22:22the bad story
22:23that will be out
22:24will suddenly be
22:24top of the 10
22:27which was
22:27I thought sort of
22:29insanity really
22:30because the bad story
22:31is already top of the 10
22:31if it's a bad story
22:32top of the 10 is in 10 o'clock news
22:33yeah
22:34it's you know
22:35it's already dominating
22:35the news gender
22:36and I think people
22:37misunderstood
22:38what an on camera
22:41briefing was for
22:42this wasn't a broadcast
22:45tool
22:45it was a digital tool
22:47this was about
22:48making a social first move
22:51because as a government
22:52you may have five
22:53interesting announcements
22:55on a particular day
22:56one of which
22:57the lobby want to talk about
22:58but say you have
22:59I don't know
23:01investments in new
23:02nursery school places
23:03and you know
23:03we're going to
23:04give X amount of
23:05you know
23:05billions to nursery school
23:06blah blah blah
23:08most people don't hear that
23:09now
23:10it'd be much better
23:11if you have
23:12your
23:13on camera briefing
23:14you have a press secretary
23:15who will deliver that message
23:17and you've got content
23:18you could then take that content
23:19and use social media
23:20you know
23:21platforms
23:22maybe it's you're on Facebook
23:23wherever your audience is
23:24you can put some spend in there
23:26from government spend
23:26and you can ensure that people
23:27are actually seeing it
23:28and you can be where they are
23:29and that would have put
23:30the government much further ahead
23:31because we'd be using
23:32again social first
23:33and I think one of the things
23:34that Andy Burnham
23:36is doing
23:37which is obviously
23:38the right thing to do
23:38it's a social first approach
23:40I mean
23:41this is not revelationary
23:42this is what government
23:43should have been doing
23:44for an awful long time
23:45you look at things
23:46and you know
23:47the majority of people
23:48get their news
23:49from social media
23:49that is where people are now
23:51through a variety
23:52of different channels
23:53it's over
23:54you know
23:54my wonderful company
23:56Charles B
23:56available for all
23:57reassuringly expensive
23:58strategic communication needs
24:01you know
24:01when we did a survey
24:03last year
24:04we did a report
24:04on where people
24:05get their news from
24:05and you know
24:07Facebook has now overtaken
24:08the BBC
24:09as the primary source
24:10of news
24:10for most people
24:10in this country
24:11and most people
24:12wouldn't see Facebook
24:13as a you know
24:14the big thing anymore
24:16but it's where people are
24:17so obviously
24:19as a political actor
24:22as a government
24:22you need to be
24:23where people are
24:24and you need to say
24:24your message
24:25as many places as possible
24:26that doesn't mean
24:27that the lobby
24:27still isn't important
24:28the lobby isn't
24:28critically important
24:29because they do set
24:30some of the tone
24:31of how you're perceived
24:32but you need to be
24:33everywhere
24:34everything everywhere
24:35all at once
24:35so to speak
24:36I think in modern
24:37communications
24:38and I think
24:38they've made
24:39an encouraging start
24:40tactically
24:41in just getting out
24:42in that format
24:42but do you think
24:43it's going to stay
24:44do you think it's going
24:45to stick
24:45or do you think
24:45inevitably
24:47things slide back
24:49it's inevitable
24:50that there is more
24:51and more focus
24:52on social media
24:53just because that's
24:54where the eyeballs are
24:54so there's going
24:55to be more of that
24:56I think most
24:57directs of communications
24:58actually don't try
24:58and change anything at all
24:59they just do
25:00the same thing
25:01which is go in
25:02and play to the lobby
25:03that is where
25:04your pressure points are
25:06that is also
25:07where the principal
25:08wants you to be
25:08because most of these
25:10people don't have
25:11an understanding
25:11of modern communications
25:13they don't really know
25:15what they're hiring
25:15so this is another
25:17big reason
25:18why we've seen
25:18such a churn through
25:19directors of communications
25:21in politics
25:22is because people
25:23hire people
25:24with the wrong skill set
25:25so a prime minister
25:26will come in
25:27they will usually find
25:28a journalist
25:29or someone who's worked
25:30within the political team
25:31whose job fundamentally
25:33is being media management
25:34is what is the story
25:35of the day
25:36how do we get the best
25:37top line on that story
25:38of the day
25:38and we sort of win the day
25:40journalists are brilliant
25:41for that
25:41because they've got
25:41the understanding
25:42of the media cycles
25:43and what's a great top line
25:45so it's like winning today
25:46but your director of comms
25:48is a different role entirely
25:49your director of comms
25:50is someone looking
25:50at the next election
25:51and working backwards
25:52and working out
25:54what is the moral story
25:55we're telling the country
25:56and once you've got
25:57that sort of moral story
25:59that should help you
26:00when you're developing
26:01your policy
26:02because your policy
26:02should align
26:03and fit in
26:04with the moral story
26:05you're trying to tell
26:06so it's coherent
26:07to the public
26:07and they understand
26:08what you're trying to do
26:09and how you're trying to do it
26:10so it all fits together
26:11so most of my job
26:13and I used to drive
26:14certain members of the lobby
26:14mad because they thought
26:15my job was to be on the phone
26:17to them all day
26:18I think Boris thought
26:19my job was to be on the phone
26:20to them all day
26:20but my actual job
26:21was to be in the room
26:23in number 10
26:23to sit next to Boris
26:25and when someone come in
26:26with a slightly batshit plan
26:27that was totally at odds
26:29with what we were trying to do
26:30and would confuse the country
26:32because it's kind of like
26:33oh you want to do X
26:34but you're saying Y
26:35so it doesn't make sense to us
26:36it's to keep us on track
26:38an example of which
26:39for example
26:39it would be during COVID
26:41so you know
26:42our key message is
26:43stay home
26:44protect the HF
26:45to save lives
26:46so encouraging everyone
26:46to stay home
26:47stop social mixing
26:48very important
26:49don't mix with people
26:50or people will die
26:51very simple
26:52clear message
26:53for everyone
26:54and one of the senior team
26:56in number 10
26:56with a sort of business hat on
26:57understandably
26:58came in and said
26:59well you know
26:59we spoke to the airlines
27:01and they're all going crazy
27:02and they're worried
27:03that they're all going
27:03to go out of business
27:04and we need to allow
27:05the airlines to
27:06basically let people
27:07fly into the UK
27:08we've got to do that
27:09and in number 10
27:11the view is
27:11oh we should do that
27:12we should let people
27:13come into the UK
27:15but we're also making
27:16people stay at home
27:17so it's kind of like
27:18you can't go out
27:18and mix
27:19but we can import
27:20COVID from abroad
27:21and let people sort of
27:21mix around that way
27:22it's totally incoherent
27:23and it undermines your message
27:25and it means you will get
27:27fewer people
27:27being willing to adhere
27:29to the rules
27:29that you're setting
27:30so it's what's our
27:30coherent sensible story
27:32so my job was to be in there
27:33and kill the stuff
27:34that you know
27:35was undermining us
27:36and you did a very good job
27:38of that
27:38but let's be frank
27:40a coherent moral story
27:42and Boris Johnson
27:42aren't natural bedfellows
27:44in people's minds
27:46so how do you square
27:47that circle
27:49in what way
27:50well so how did you
27:52when you were doing that job
27:53for Boris Johnson
27:53how were you trying to
27:55what was the moral message
27:56that you were trying
27:56to communicate
27:57for the government
27:58so I think
27:58during our time
27:59it was relatively simple
28:00because there were
28:01two very clear challenges
28:03so you always have
28:04to ask yourself
28:05what is the biggest problem
28:06facing the country today
28:07and how do we solve that
28:09the two things for us
28:10firstly was the
28:11sort of get Brexit done
28:12which was the first half
28:13the whole sort of
28:14premiership
28:14that half was about Brexit
28:15people saw that
28:17in all of our sort of research
28:18and I think this is a core thing
28:20for anyone looking to do
28:21sort of communications
28:22we were incredibly
28:23research focused
28:24so we understood
28:25the voters
28:25we understood
28:26who we were talking to
28:27and what we needed
28:27to tell them
28:28and we knew from the research
28:30that we'd done
28:30before we even walked
28:31into number 10
28:32we knew that
28:33obviously Brexit
28:33was the challenge
28:34people thought
28:35it was a blocker
28:36it was stopping us
28:36focusing on the things
28:37that they really cared about
28:38the NHS
28:38policing
28:39education etc
28:40so we had to tell a story
28:42of hey we're going to get
28:43Brexit done
28:43and then we move on
28:44to something else
28:45so we would
28:46even visually
28:47we'd get Boris out
28:48at things like hospitals
28:49and police stations
28:50and such that
28:51and so you'd turn on
28:53the BBC 6 o'clock news
28:54you would see
28:55Jeremy Corbyn
28:56and Dominic Grieve
28:57and all these other people
28:58sort of shouting
28:58at each other
28:59in a sort of zoo
29:00of parliament
29:01that everyone was fed up with
29:02and then you'd turn
29:04to the next item
29:04it would be Boris
29:05and they'd be asking him
29:06about Brexit
29:06but he'd be in a hospital
29:07surrounded by nurses
29:08very clear message
29:09which is
29:10listen we're going to get
29:11Brexit done
29:11and that's why
29:13we're going to get
29:1450,000 new nurses
29:15or whatever it might be
29:16and you see that
29:17so even if you had
29:17the sound off
29:18you would see a very different
29:19you would see a very clear
29:20story from Boris
29:21and what he was trying to do
29:22and what the government
29:22was trying to achieve
29:23so that was sort of stage one
29:25and then after the election
29:26we pretty much fell into COVID
29:27so again
29:28the story then was
29:29stay home
29:30protect the NHS
29:30save lives
29:31how do we control the R8
29:32how do we keep people alive
29:34etc
29:34so very difficult
29:36huge
29:37things to sort of
29:38be part of
29:39and work on
29:40very challenging
29:40but in some regards
29:42simple
29:42because they were
29:43sort of one
29:44issues
29:45now
29:45if you're Andy Burnham
29:46the question is
29:46it's about cost of living
29:47people are feeling poorer
29:48they're incredibly unhappy
29:50how do you tell a story
29:51about making this country
29:52better off
29:53and making everybody
29:53better off
29:54and I think that's the
29:55big circle to square
29:56which is tough
29:57you talked a bit about
29:58the director of communications
29:59job
30:00it wasn't the only job
30:01that you were in the frame
30:02for at least
30:03when you were in Downing Street
30:04so at one point
30:04you were tipped to be
30:05the chief of staff
30:07what do you think is different
30:08about being the chief of staff
30:09from the dock
30:09and did you really
30:11want to do that
30:12as you'll know
30:12Downing Street is a court
30:15and titles themselves
30:17I think can be
30:18a little bit misleading
30:19I think during
30:21my time
30:23in Downing Street
30:24there was probably
30:24like six or seven people
30:26who made the weather
30:27people who could go in
30:29to see the PM
30:30whenever they wanted
30:30could walk into
30:31any meeting
30:32that had that direct access
30:34to him
30:34and he would listen
30:35and that proximity
30:37to power
30:37is basically
30:39how the whole building
30:40moves and survives
30:41chief of staff
30:42I think
30:44it's a slightly ridiculous term
30:45because there is
30:46no chief of staff
30:46if you understand
30:48how number 10 works
30:49the political
30:50so called chief of staff
30:52is not our chief of staff
30:53they are the head
30:54of the political team
30:55and they are basically
30:56the prime minister's
30:57primary political advisor
30:59but the chief of staff
31:01in essence
31:02should be
31:03the PPS
31:04the principal private secretary
31:05number 10
31:05which is a hugely powerful role
31:07that no one really focuses on
31:08or pays any attention to
31:10well stay tuned
31:11unless it's a number 10
31:12to hear from a PPS
31:13coming up
31:14so I think to be
31:17a chief of staff
31:18it's not the White House
31:19where you actually
31:20do control
31:21all of the staff
31:22and can dictate
31:23the rhythm of the day
31:24it's not quite like that
31:26so I think
31:27yes there is some
31:28additional responsibility
31:29you know
31:29you'd be the point person
31:30dealing with the White House
31:32and things like that
31:32so there will be a lot more
31:34I think it's a lot more pressured
31:35and it's a lot more focus on you
31:36but some of the day to day
31:38would have been
31:38relatively similar
31:39because you know
31:40I probably spent more time
31:42because the way Dom operated
31:43and the fact that he was
31:44arguably slightly resentful
31:46of Boris most of the time
31:47I probably spent a lot of time
31:49as the sort of
31:50Boris whisperer
31:51during that time
31:52and spent more time
31:53than anybody else
31:54I would say
31:54being that sort of
31:55political advisor
31:56alongside probably Eddie Lister
31:57so
31:58well and trying to solve
31:59problems in the day
32:00that's what I remember
32:01is that actually trying to
32:02make the fix work
32:03yeah
32:04so in some ways
32:05I think my role
32:06probably would have
32:07stayed similar
32:08had I took it
32:09I also knew realistically
32:11that it wouldn't have worked
32:13I think the sort of
32:14the parliamentary party
32:17that had had enough
32:19of the sort of
32:19vote leave axis
32:21and wouldn't have swallowed it
32:23I think that was kind
32:25when it was
32:25when it sort of
32:26was leaked
32:26by some rotter
32:29into the times
32:30I think you know
32:32it felt like
32:32it was a non-starter
32:34but it's flattering
32:36I think when you get asked
32:37it's a flattering thing
32:38and you sort of
32:38one of those wonderful
32:40things in politics
32:40you can convince yourself
32:41of things that you know
32:43are not good
32:43you're like
32:44maybe
32:44a couple of years
32:46it would be fantastic
32:47and I could turn it all around
32:48but
32:48I don't think it's ever
32:50really a starter
32:51you did get a taste of power
32:53you did get a taste of power
32:53though didn't you
32:53because I remember
32:54quite early on
32:55in Covid
32:56when Boris Johnson
32:57was very unwell
32:58and in fact
32:58most of the staff
33:00got Covid
33:01and you were basically
33:02in charge
33:03from the country
33:04we clear
33:05I think it literally
33:06was just the three of us
33:08I certainly remember
33:09having a very
33:10frightening conversation
33:11in a little room
33:13where we realised
33:14the constitution
33:15didn't really provide
33:16for what to do
33:17if the prime minister
33:18is really unwell
33:19and we wrote it down
33:21and it was
33:22don't worry everyone
33:23it was all good
33:24I remember going
33:24in for a meeting
33:25because I had Covid
33:26the week before
33:27and was self-isolating
33:28and then came in
33:29because Martin
33:30who was our PPS
33:31had called
33:31and sort of said
33:32you know
33:32Boris is taking a bit
33:33of a turn for the worst
33:34in the way
33:35that Martin does
33:36meaning he was
33:37on his way
33:38to hospital
33:38and we came in
33:41and I remember
33:41sort of looking
33:42at you
33:42and Mark
33:43Sedwell
33:43who was the
33:44cabinet secretary
33:44at the time
33:46and realising
33:47that there wasn't
33:47a plan
33:48and I remember
33:49looking at you
33:49for reassurance
33:50Helen is a very
33:51reassuring figure
33:52in these circumstances
33:53when Helen looks
33:54worried
33:55you know
33:55you should be worried
33:56and I think
33:58very quickly afterwards
33:58there was a very
33:59good plan
33:59with serif font
34:00that looked like
34:01it existed
34:01for a very long time
34:02I think you remember
34:03yeah
34:04I think that's
34:04what
34:04and I mean
34:05it was
34:07I remember walking
34:08into the cabinet room
34:09that day
34:09and sort of
34:10I sort of come in
34:11a bit later
34:11and like Boris's
34:12the PM's chair
34:13has arms on it
34:14it's a fantastic detail
34:15that no one else
34:16in cabinet's chair
34:17has arms on
34:17except for the PM's
34:18which you know
34:19it's a power play
34:20and it's fantastic
34:21and I got to sit
34:22in the chair
34:22with the arms on
34:23which was
34:24which was quite
34:24I did yeah
34:25because we were
34:26so concerned
34:27about making sure
34:27that everyone knew
34:28that it was still
34:29the prime minister
34:30that was in charge
34:31so there was a big risk
34:32when you genuinely
34:33have a risk
34:34and we really did have a risk
34:34that the prime minister was ill
34:35that people would feel like
34:36well okay
34:37they could start
34:38disobeying the might
34:39of number 10
34:40and actually at that point
34:41particularly in Covid
34:42it was so important
34:43that we kept the discipline
34:44so yeah
34:45I remember making you sit
34:46in the big chair
34:46you do wonder
34:47what sort of country
34:47it is though
34:48when you're looking
34:48at yourself going
34:49oh crikey am I
34:50am I nominally in charge today
34:52this feels like
34:53not a serious country
34:54it was Dominic Raab
34:55Dominic Raab
34:56who was absolutely fantastic
34:58during that period of time
34:59absolutely magnificent
34:59it's a huge
35:00one of the best bits
35:00of public service
35:01I've ever seen in my life
35:02was the way that
35:02Dominic Raab
35:03took that chair
35:04for those
35:04after you'd vacated it
35:05obviously
35:06got it warm a few weeks
35:07yeah
35:09that's the job
35:10warmer upper for Dominic Raab
35:12now that is like a court
35:13there are worse places to be
35:18it would be great
35:19to have some of your
35:19general observations
35:20of being in number 10
35:22there's a new team
35:23in there now
35:23obviously with Andy Burnham
35:25who I'm sure
35:26will be wanting
35:27to make all kinds of changes
35:28make a big impact
35:29a first fantastic 100 days
35:31as everyone likes to
35:32talk about
35:33what are the kind of
35:35best and worst bits
35:36about working in
35:37that building
35:39I think
35:40there is something wonderful
35:41about just walking in
35:42every day
35:43that you
35:44you don't forget
35:45and I felt
35:46every day
35:46was a privilege
35:47you sort of
35:48walk through the door
35:49and you do
35:49kind of pinch yourself
35:50and I think
35:51for the almost
35:52two years
35:52I was there
35:52you sort of
35:53that never stopped
35:54and I think
35:55I was obviously
35:56particularly lucky
35:56to have a wonderful office
35:58you know
35:59and it's just
35:59you kind of pinch yourself
36:00and think
36:01this is wonderful
36:02and then the day
36:03sort of
36:03you know
36:04starts
36:04and you
36:04bang your head
36:05against a wall
36:06for how
36:07Minister 17
36:08has made an absolute
36:09balls up
36:10of something again
36:11that should have been
36:11relatively simple
36:12but you know
36:13we carry on
36:14and I think
36:15so the building
36:16itself is magical
36:17although I think
36:17very few people
36:18appreciate also
36:20what
36:21what an absolute
36:22mess it is
36:23in terms of
36:23you know
36:24there was
36:24in the press office
36:25there was a massive
36:25hole in the wall
36:26for about six months
36:28that never got filled in
36:29and you know
36:31we really should
36:31except for your head banging
36:32probably
36:33we should
36:34spend much more money
36:35in terms of
36:36on the building
36:36and making it
36:37you know
36:37it is a
36:38it's a wonderful
36:40historic building
36:40and it does feel
36:41sometimes that it's
36:42not fit for purpose
36:44as an office
36:45and I think
36:45it's against
36:46those little
36:46political things
36:47because everyone's
36:47terrified that
36:48you know
36:49people are going to go
36:49oh they spent money
36:50on number 10
36:51which is you know
36:51I don't think
36:52any other country
36:52in the world
36:53runs quite this way
36:54so it'd be quite nice
36:55if all the parties
36:56got together
36:56and just said
36:56we should obviously
36:57be doing this
36:57and make it
36:58you know
36:58a wonderful
36:59state of the art
37:00sort of building
37:01and renew its heritage
37:01that wasn't quite a good idea
37:02for a Downing Street
37:03trust at one point
37:05if you remember
37:05but that got slightly
37:06waylaid by some wallpaper
37:07yes
37:10yeah that's a whole
37:10another podcast
37:11how about
37:12if you got to go back
37:14and have your time over
37:15is there anything
37:16you do differently
37:16key thing
37:18I would do differently
37:19and this will shock you both
37:20I'm sure
37:21is try and take more people
37:23with me
37:23for the changes
37:24that we were looking to make
37:27I think
37:28we were a bit
37:29of a blunt instrument
37:30which
37:31in some regard
37:32did work
37:33and we moved
37:33some things
37:34quickly
37:36and I think
37:36we always felt
37:37given the difficulty
37:38in the relationship
37:40with
37:42some of Boris's
37:43wider circle
37:44that we might not be there
37:45for a long time
37:46so it was
37:47how do we
37:47try and create
37:48as much positive change
37:49as possible
37:50but I think
37:51partly after the election
37:52there was
37:53maybe a bit too much hubris
37:55and
37:57that meant
37:57that we
37:58you know
37:59there was enemies made
38:00that we just didn't need to
38:01because we were just
38:02running out of things
38:03maybe a bit too quickly
38:04and I think
38:04trying to change everything
38:06all at once
38:07was probably a bit of a folly
38:08and we should have focused
38:08on areas of change
38:09and I think
38:10we could have also
38:10brought more people in
38:11internally
38:12and be a bit more collegiate
38:14and we would have ended up
38:15getting more things done
38:16so I think
38:17if I was ever going to go
38:18back in again
38:19you know
38:20I mean I remember
38:21there was things like
38:21people like Peter Hill
38:22who's PPS
38:22who is brilliant
38:23and we worked with
38:24briefly under
38:25Theresa May
38:26and there was a lot of
38:27oh you know
38:28because Brexit
38:29was the big thing
38:29when we went in
38:30it was like
38:30oh we've got to make sure
38:31everyone's on board
38:32with where we're going
38:32and things like that
38:33and those sort of people
38:34we should have really
38:34made an effort
38:35to buy in
38:36and bring on board
38:37and you know
38:38because I think
38:39there's a lot of
38:39really great
38:40particularly civil servants
38:41who would have loved
38:42the energy of the team
38:43and what we're trying to do
38:44after probably a bit
38:46of a stale period
38:46with during Theresa's time
38:48and we just didn't do
38:49enough reaching out
38:51buying goodwill
38:51all those sorts of things
38:53in politics
38:53that I think
38:53are really critical
38:56you know
38:56because I say
38:57I think there's a bit
38:58of hubris
38:58and it gets worse
39:00when you have more success
39:00so you go and win elections
39:02and things
39:02everything's going well
39:03it's very easy
39:04to fall into that
39:05pattern of things
39:06so
39:07yeah Doug
39:07I totally agree with that
39:08I think if you look
39:09it's one of my regrets
39:10I think of the wasted
39:11opportunities
39:11at that particular period
39:13in our country's life
39:13that could have actually
39:14been so profitable
39:15and there were alliances
39:16on both sides
39:17actually
39:17that I think
39:18there's a missed moment
39:19on the civil services side
39:21as well
39:21I think from my perspective
39:22looking back on that
39:23where we could have made
39:24we could have made
39:24more happen
39:25more quickly
39:26but it felt too often
39:27like we were
39:28the wrong side of the table
39:29that we weren't even
39:30round together
39:30I think as well
39:32if you look at
39:33much of the
39:35much of what was
39:36identified
39:37that needed to change
39:38if we look at
39:39people saying
39:40oh the levers don't work
39:41and all those other things
39:42I think there was a diagnosis
39:43for what was wrong
39:44with the state
39:45and ways to fix it
39:46that was broadly
39:47the right one
39:48I think it's now
39:49a sort of common consensus
39:50for much of these
39:52discussions
39:52everybody from
39:53Tony Blurter
39:54Nigel Farage
39:56broadly seems to agree
39:57with a lot of these things
39:58and that was a sort of
39:59unique moment
39:59where I think you had
40:00people brave enough
40:01and smart enough
40:02to deliver on some of that
40:04and it didn't happen
40:05and I think that's the thing
40:06I really do regret
40:08looking back
40:09because I think the country
40:10would be in a much better state
40:11than what it is now
40:12if we'd have got that right
40:13I totally agree
40:14and look you mentioned before
40:15that you've now
40:16since leaving number 10
40:17you have a company
40:18which I should confess
40:19I have benefited
40:21from the strategic advice
40:22of Lee
40:23very generously came
40:24and talked to the
40:25shelter board last year
40:26with his political insight
40:26which was hugely helpful
40:28so while we've got you
40:29in the hot seat
40:30can you just give us
40:31your view on where
40:32you think we'll be
40:32in politics next year
40:34across the board
40:35everything
40:37everywhere all at once
40:38yeah I don't
40:39particularly see
40:41a lot of things changing
40:42I think
40:43we will see
40:45Andy Burnham
40:46has a very short window
40:47he has a sort of
40:4890 days or so
40:49100 days
40:50there's always these things
40:50where people are going
40:51to look at him
40:51and make a decision
40:53at the moment
40:54it's like 52%
40:55Napoli saw recently
40:56said they had no opinion
40:58on him
40:58they hadn't made
40:58their mind up
40:59so they're going to look
41:00and they're going to see
41:01what he's about
41:01and they're going to make
41:02a decision
41:02a bit more promising
41:03I think than Keir
41:03but he's going to face
41:05some hard challenges
41:06and I just think
41:07that the size
41:09of the challenges
41:10and the problems ahead
41:11may well damage
41:14his flourishing reputation
41:15quite significantly
41:17I think
41:18Kemi seems to be
41:20I think doing well
41:21tactically
41:22and within the party
41:23but he's making
41:23no headway in the country
41:24I don't really think
41:25the Tories will move
41:26very much at all
41:27and reform
41:28we seem to be having
41:29a bit more of a
41:29choppier element of it
41:31are still holding up
41:31relatively well
41:32in sort of polling
41:33so the most likely element
41:35is we're going to end up
41:36in a very fragmented
41:37parliament
41:38next time round
41:39and that in itself
41:41you know
41:41we could see a sort of
41:42left wing coalition
41:43probably the most likely
41:45but I actually think
41:45we might end up
41:46with a sort of
41:46Tory reform
41:48coalition government
41:50but I think Andy Burnham
41:51will be crazy
41:51to go to an early election
41:52so I think we're still
41:53a few years off that
41:54so I think we'll see
41:56something probably similar
41:57to what we've seen
41:57for the last couple of years
41:58just on reheat
42:00over and over again
42:02until we get to an election
42:03and then you know
42:04we will then
42:05yeah
42:06we will see
42:07what seems quite interesting
42:09is people talk about
42:10the party leaders
42:11a lot
42:11so there's
42:11Kemi Badenoch
42:12as a figure
42:13or Nigel Farage
42:14or Zach Polanski
42:15sort of Ed Davey
42:16Andy Burnham
42:18and not necessarily
42:19attaching them
42:19to their parties
42:20so much
42:21for better
42:22or for worse
42:23but it does feel
42:24like everyone's
42:25trying to be
42:26a person
42:27with a microphone
42:28campaigning
42:29doing interesting
42:30stuff online
42:31and so on
42:31have you got
42:31a bit of advice
42:32for anyone in particular
42:34or for all of them
42:35in general
42:35about how to sort of
42:36nose ahead
42:37of the others
42:38and do things
42:39a bit differently
42:40I think we live
42:42in an age
42:43of authenticity
42:44and that is what
42:45people are looking for
42:46you know
42:46the sort of
42:47previous
42:48political generation
42:49it was all about
42:50the line to take
42:50holding the line
42:51and I think
42:52you know
42:52we've seen
42:53that everybody
42:53is fed up
42:54with that
42:55it feels
42:55inauthentic
42:56you don't
42:56answer questions
42:57so I think
42:58the public
42:59respond well
43:00to people
43:01who are just
43:01honest
43:01and authentic
43:02and come out
43:03and say it
43:03as it is
43:04so to speak
43:05so there is
43:06a definite
43:07benefit
43:07for remaining
43:08authentic
43:09as I think
43:09Andy Burnham
43:10is trying to do
43:10at the moment
43:11but again
43:12fundamentally
43:13for me
43:14it's looking
43:15at like
43:15what is
43:16the moral story
43:17of your party
43:17and you
43:18as an individual
43:19how are you
43:20going to fix
43:21the problems
43:21of the country
43:22you know
43:23and there should
43:24be a story
43:24to be able
43:24to tell for that
43:25and I think
43:25the big
43:27challenge
43:27that I see
43:28for many
43:28of the parties
43:29is they're
43:29very good
43:30tactically
43:30they'll pop up
43:31at PMQs
43:32and they'll talk
43:32about things
43:33individually
43:33of themselves
43:34but I don't
43:35see a sort
43:36of larger
43:36thematic
43:38this is how
43:38we are going
43:39to fix
43:39Britain
43:40you know
43:40in a sort
43:41of also
43:42a bit more
43:42optimism
43:43about how
43:43we're going
43:44to do things
43:44and sort
43:45of building
43:46that story
43:46out
43:47so at the
43:48moment
43:48it's
43:49you know
43:49I think
43:50particularly
43:50when you
43:51look at
43:52you know
43:53look at
43:53Kemi
43:54or you look
43:54at Ed Davey
43:55it's just
43:55they are
43:55individual
43:56sort of
43:56stunts
43:57and events
43:57and they're
43:58responding
43:59to things
43:59they're very
44:00much just
44:01responding
44:01to events
44:02not framing
44:02events
44:03for themselves
44:04and like
44:04seeing much
44:05more of that
44:05if they're
44:06really going
44:06to sort
44:07of get
44:07traction
44:07people have
44:08to believe
44:08this person
44:09can make
44:10my life
44:10better
44:11and we look
44:13at those
44:13individual
44:14pollings
44:14the one
44:14thing that
44:15you do see
44:15is people
44:16don't believe
44:16any politician
44:17they don't
44:18trust any
44:18politician
44:19they don't
44:19think any
44:19of them
44:20are going
44:20to deliver
44:20for them
44:21there is
44:21an overwhelming
44:22cynicism
44:23which is why
44:23Andy Burnham
44:24won't get
44:24long
44:25if you know
44:25if people
44:26look at him
44:26and go
44:26actually you're
44:27just the same
44:27as all the rest
44:28it will quickly
44:28slide
44:28so you've got
44:29to get out
44:30of that
44:30and you've
44:31got to tell
44:31a great story
44:32and you've
44:32got to identify
44:32how you're
44:33going to get
44:33change
44:33and fundamentally
44:34be serious
44:35you're going to
44:35deliver change
44:36and know
44:36what that is
44:37it's not
44:37about comms
44:38it actually
44:38is about
44:39something so
44:39much more
44:40it's about
44:40being a politician
44:42with substance
44:43and being able
44:44to really look
44:45at identify
44:45what are the
44:46problems we face
44:47how are we going
44:47to fix them
44:48and then telling
44:48a story about
44:49that afterwards
44:50just a last one
44:52then do you
44:52think someone
44:53who has made
44:53the weather
44:54for themselves
44:55in the last
44:56couple of summers
44:56is Nigel Farage
44:57obviously
44:58reform really
44:59went on the
44:59front foot
45:00with their
45:00press conferences
45:01and it's
45:02quite interesting
45:02to see the
45:03nation's media
45:04are normally
45:04able to take
45:05a summer holiday
45:05and suddenly
45:06they were having
45:06to go out
45:06to like
45:07airport hangars
45:08and stuff
45:09like that
45:09to see
45:10their latest
45:11announcement
45:11do you think
45:13we've got
45:13the Clacton
45:14by-election
45:15coming up
45:15in a week
45:16or so's time
45:17do you think
45:18he's got it
45:18wrong
45:19and he's
45:19overshot
45:20and he's
45:20maybe been
45:21a bit
45:21too authentic
45:22on this one
45:23he's kind of
45:24been himself
45:24and cooked it
45:25as the youths
45:27say
45:27I mean
45:28I think
45:28it's probably
45:29the best card
45:31he had to play
45:31at that point
45:32he's in a very
45:32difficult position
45:34and it was
45:34likely to just
45:35be a death
45:36by a thousand
45:36cuts
45:36so you may as
45:37well try and
45:37take the
45:38ownership of it
45:38win the election
45:39and then he
45:39can say
45:40well you know
45:40the voters
45:41have seen this
45:41and they don't
45:42care
45:42and this is
45:42all Westminster
45:43bubble nonsense
45:44etc
45:45so it probably
45:46works out
45:47well for him
45:47overall
45:48ideally you wouldn't
45:49be going directly
45:50head to head
45:50with Count
45:51Binface
45:52but I think
45:53it's probably
45:54the right strategy
45:54from where
45:55he's landed
45:56himself in
45:56but I mean
45:56the real question
45:57is
45:57when you're
45:58looking at
45:59donations
45:59and all those
46:00other things
46:00is you know
46:01Helen will be
46:02much more
46:02an expert
46:02than this
46:03than I am
46:03but if you
46:04can't explain
46:05openly and
46:06transparently
46:06what you're doing
46:07then there's a
46:07question of
46:08again it's not
46:08a comms problem
46:09it's a policy
46:10problem and
46:11that's you know
46:12for whatever
46:12reason isn't
46:13around that
46:14they've got
46:14themselves into
46:15difficulty
46:15very similar to
46:16the sort of
46:17stuff we'd often
46:17end up dealing
46:18with Boris on
46:19and then you're
46:20dealing with
46:20what's the
46:21sort of
46:22you know
46:22the best
46:22the worst
46:23best option
46:24sort of thing
46:24or the best
46:25worst option
46:25yeah and you
46:25can tell whether
46:26you've got a
46:26problem with
46:26the length
46:27of your answer
46:27if you have to
46:29craft a paragraph
46:30in response to
46:31any of those
46:31questions
46:32you're sunk
46:33yeah
46:34agreed
46:34advice to live
46:35by
46:36Lee
46:36thank you so
46:36much for
46:37joining us
46:37in lessons
46:38for number
46:3810
46:39been a pleasure
46:39guys
46:40thanks very
46:40much
46:40thanks for
46:41listening to
46:42this episode
46:42of lessons
46:43from number
46:4410
46:44remember
46:44to follow
46:45the show
46:45on your
46:46podcast player
46:46of choice
46:47and do
46:47leave us
46:47a five-star
46:48review
46:48please do
46:49email us
46:49with any
46:50feedback and
46:50questions
46:51our email
46:51address is
46:52intheroom
46:52at
46:52independent
46:53co.uk
46:54if you're
46:54listening on
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46:56comment under
46:56today's episode
46:57with your
46:57thoughts
46:58and you can
46:59keep up to
46:59date with
47:00all the best
47:00bits from
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47:04this podcast
47:05is part of
47:05the independent
47:06podcast network
47:07and is produced
47:08in association
47:09with next
47:09chapter studios
47:10the executive
47:11producer is
47:12rod adahali
47:12and the producer
47:13is sam
47:13durham
47:14and a special
47:14mention to
47:15content editor
47:16maya nushka
47:16video editor
47:17valiraza
47:18and videographer
47:19dan faber
47:20and we'll see
47:21you next week
47:21we'll see you next week
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