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00:00:00Elon Musk, thank you so much for joining me on The Insider. Thank you for having us here at
00:00:03Tesla Giga. It is really hard to introduce you without using superlatives. I mean, you are doing
00:00:10I think more to build the future than literally anybody alive right now. I'm doing a lot of
00:00:14building in general. I'm sort of an instinctive builder, I suppose. I just like building things.
00:00:19You are, but you're building, I mean, you know, run around building things all day long. You run
00:00:24around building a lot of things. You pioneered electric vehicles, you've revolutionized space
00:00:28travel, you've got a cutting-edge AI model now, humanoid robots. Can we start this
00:00:34conversation by putting all of this together? Tell me what the world's gonna
00:00:38be like in, let's say, ten years, if you succeed. Ten years, so we're talking 2036.
00:00:43Yeah. Hopefully we'll both be around. Hopefully, yes. Probably. Most likely we will be. It's hard to
00:00:52imagine the future that where there's not an overwhelming amount of artificial
00:00:57intelligence. Meaning, I continue as I would expect artificial intelligence to be far greater
00:01:04than the sum of human intelligence. Like, far greater. In fact, I think AI may exceed the
00:01:12sum of human intelligence in about, in around five years.
00:01:16Five years? Roughly five years is my guess. So, there really won't be anything that AI can't do better than
00:01:27humans,
00:01:27apart from being human, perhaps. At a more prosaic level, what will life be like?
00:01:34The most likely outcome is an age of amazing abundance, where anyone can have anything they can think of.
00:01:46This is, this is, this may sound preposterous, but, well, here we are in 2026.
00:01:52Let's see where we stand in 2036. Now, of course, there are things that could derail this, like a massive
00:01:58global
00:02:00thermonuclear war, or something like that. But assuming that there's not World War III,
00:02:06I think, I think we're headed for an age of amazing abundance. So, this is, I guess, a message of,
00:02:12of optimism and excitement about the future.
00:02:17So, we'll talk about the abundance in a second, but just a very prosaic matter. How are your companies going
00:02:23to be making money?
00:02:23Because when you, in the SpaceX IPO prospectus, it, it looked as though the overwhelming amount of the revenue would
00:02:30be coming from AI, from Grok, really.
00:02:32It won't be transporting things to space, as SpaceX is now doing. What is, what will your companies be doing
00:02:39in 10 years?
00:02:40And how will they make money? Well, you can really think of the economy as digital and physical intelligence.
00:02:52So, what we have right now, advancing very rapidly, is digital intelligence, obviously, with, with AI that is, it seems
00:03:01that, well, almost with every passing week,
00:03:04there are more AI breakthroughs. It can do something amazing that it couldn't do before. But it's still somewhat confined
00:03:11to the digital realm.
00:03:13It doesn't have end effectors. You need the end effectors in the form of humanoid robotics.
00:03:20You need, basically, lots of bots, in a nutshell. You need lots of bots. And then you can go from
00:03:27intelligence manifesting itself only digitally,
00:03:32to shaping atoms. And you say, what is an economy? An economy is the production of goods and provision of
00:03:45services.
00:03:46And if you have vast numbers of robots with vast amounts of digital intelligence, you have a sort of quasi
00:03:57-infinite economy.
00:04:01So, this is, this is really, the future is going to be very, very different from the past. There's no,
00:04:09there's no analogy or metaphor that I think illustrates the magnitude of change that we're going to experience here.
00:04:18I understand that. And I'm also trying to kind of figure out what that world will look like. But in
00:04:24some way, you have-
00:04:25I think it'll be good. It's going to be pretty incredible.
00:04:27Yeah, well, we'll also do, there are some risks too. We'll come to those.
00:04:30Yeah, there's risks. I agree.
00:04:30We'll come to those. But just on how then you make money, because in the end, people are buying your
00:04:36shares because they expect you to make money.
00:04:38Do you sell robots?
00:04:38Let's make another prediction. Money won't matter in 2036.
00:04:42You're watching my interview with Elon Musk. If you want to get early access to other interviews, subscribe to The
00:04:48Economist by clicking the link above. Now back to the interview.
00:04:52I'm not sure that the people who bought your shares think that money won't matter in 2036.
00:04:58Well, what do you want money for? You want money for goods and services, right? You want money for obviously
00:05:06food, housing, transport, entertainment.
00:05:10Well, if that is so abundant that there's more, that the robots and AI are providing more goods and services
00:05:19than any human could possibly consume, what do you need money for in that case?
00:05:25You're creating these robots.
00:05:28I guess between now and then you'll need money, sure.
00:05:29Are you selling these robots? Are you selling humanoid robots or are you producing goods and services with the humanoid
00:05:37robots that you control?
00:05:40I'll give you the Levi Strauss.
00:05:41I think I would probably be, it would be an exercise in vanity for me to think that I would
00:05:48be controlling super genius AI that is vastly smarter than me.
00:05:53I think what we can and should try to do is to make sure that the AI has good values,
00:06:00that it cares about humanity and that it wants us to be happy and prosper.
00:06:10I think it probably will be.
00:06:14What my biological neural net tells me is that the most important thing for AI safety is to be maximally
00:06:20truth-seeking and curious.
00:06:22If that's the case, I think it will foster humanity.
00:06:28So let's unpack that. You're sure that humans will no longer be in control in 10 years' time?
00:06:33I think it is unlikely in the same way that if the difference in intelligence between AI and humans is
00:06:42vastly greater than the difference in intelligence between AI and chimpanzees, it's hard to imagine that the chimpanzees would be
00:06:49in charge.
00:06:51I'm really struck by this.
00:06:52And we are essentially an evolved form of chimpanzee.
00:06:57So it wasn't that long ago that we were swinging through the trees, eating bananas in the jungle.
00:07:04And we still eat bananas, by the way.
00:07:06We do.
00:07:06We do.
00:07:07And there's still, you know, bananas.
00:07:08Sometimes swing through trees as well.
00:07:10Yes, sometimes swing through trees is kind of fun.
00:07:12It's sort of reminiscent of the past.
00:07:15For all time's sake, swing through the trees once in a while.
00:07:17Probably, you know, there should be more swinging through trees.
00:07:20I bet it's way more fun than people think.
00:07:21I'm with you on that.
00:07:22I'm definitely with you on Swinging Through Trees.
00:07:24I love Swinging Through Trees.
00:07:25But I'm really struck listening to you say this now, because I've been listening to a bunch of things that
00:07:30you've said over the years.
00:07:31And 10 years ago, you were on a podcast, I think it was with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
00:07:35And you said that the thing that terrified you most was rapid recursive self-improvement in AIs.
00:07:41Yes.
00:07:42And that you said, and it really struck with me, you said that we will just be the pet Labradors
00:07:46at the best.
00:07:47Well, Labradors are pretty happy creatures.
00:07:49That's my experience.
00:07:50But in 2023, you asked for a slowdown in AIs because you were worried about it.
00:07:55Well, I signed on to, you know, as one of many, like 500 people.
00:07:59I was just, you know, one of many signatories on that thing.
00:08:04But I think even last year you said, what was it, Ted Cruz's podcast, you said there was a 10
00:08:09to 20% chance of killer robots wiping out humanity.
00:08:12Yes.
00:08:12So you sounded worried then.
00:08:14Now you seem very relaxed about it.
00:08:17Have you changed your view?
00:08:19I still think there's, I still think there's risk associated with AI and robots.
00:08:24It's not zero.
00:08:26I guess I've come to my sort of philosophical conclusion is to look on the bright side.
00:08:36Like I can't see any way to really stop this incredible momentum of AI and robots.
00:08:44And at times I sort of think, well, perhaps, you know, even if there was a stop button, we probably
00:08:51shouldn't press it because it was the most likely outcome is incredible abundance for all.
00:09:03That's what I thought actually.
00:09:04It struck me that now you seem to have decided it's inevitable.
00:09:08Let's hope for the best and go for the ride.
00:09:12Yeah.
00:09:13I mean, yes, pretty much.
00:09:16Let's, let's enjoy the ride is, I think, my philosophy at this point.
00:09:20Because, I mean, honestly, there's, there's, it's, there seems to be just an inexorable progress here in, in AI and
00:09:29in robots that, you know, even if I wanted to stop it and I don't, I couldn't.
00:09:37Do you think there's still a 10 to 20% chance that killer robots mean the end of humanity?
00:09:44That's a high P doom, as they say.
00:09:47Well, in the long run, we're all dead, of course, you know, so, I mean, so, I mean, like, according
00:09:56to the standard model of physics, the end of the universe is a long, boring, sort of thin, gray soup
00:10:07of gradual cooling.
00:10:12Meaning that's sort of the heat death of the universe is called.
00:10:15So, if, if the heat death of the universe is in fact the outcome for our reality, then it really
00:10:21is all about the journey.
00:10:23Because the destination is terrible.
00:10:24Yeah, but 10 years is not very, I get that, but that could be a long way ahead.
00:10:28Yeah, a very long way.
00:10:28And you're basically saying, if it's 10 to 20% in 10 years, would you go into one of your
00:10:33rockets if you thought there was a 10 to 20% chance of it blowing up and killing you?
00:10:38Yes, but, but let's say there's, you can't do anything about it.
00:10:44Okay.
00:10:45I guess the only thing we can try to do is minimize the probability of the VAT outcome.
00:10:52But trying to stop the intelligence in robots, I mean, for the longest time I declined to participate in AI
00:11:03or was, you know, created open AI as a, essentially a counterweight to Google because at the time they were,
00:11:12they had more or less a monopoly on AI.
00:11:16And then Anthropics spun out of open AI.
00:11:19And if anything, it seems like what my actions have really accelerated AI.
00:11:25You know, I wasn't really aiming to accelerate AI, but in creating open AI and then having Anthropics spin out
00:11:32of that and now currently Anthropics the leader in AI.
00:11:37I mean, these actions have actually resulted in knock on effects that accelerated AI, which wasn't really my intention.
00:11:47So it just seems like all roads lead to acceleration of AI.
00:11:55So then I'm like, okay, well, you can just sort of be sad about it or join the club, I
00:12:01suppose.
00:12:02Well, you've certainly joined the club.
00:12:03Yeah.
00:12:04I mean, you've definitely joined the club.
00:12:06You can't beat them, join them, you know.
00:12:07Well, you've, you've, you've clearly done that and very successfully, but what about trying to minimize the risks?
00:12:13And, you know, a number of the other leaders of, of model makers have been pushing for different ways to
00:12:21try and minimize the risks.
00:12:22You know, just last week, Demis Asabes came out with a proposal for a private public regulator.
00:12:29Yeah.
00:12:30I think you, you said it was a good starting point for discussions.
00:12:32I think.
00:12:33Do you think you guys should be working more actively to get something in place to control the risks?
00:12:40Or do you think that's impossible too?
00:12:41My recommendation to Demis, because we, I talked to him for a few hours before he published his piece, was
00:12:47that the most immediate thing that we could do is to have the leading AI companies at least just meet
00:12:55or have some sort of call once every few weeks and just discuss any safety and security issues.
00:13:06And, and, and, and, and that before a breakthrough, sort of a new frontier model is released, something that sort
00:13:13of is far more intelligent than anything that already exists, that there's an opportunity for the various competing AI companies
00:13:23to test, test that model for any harmful effects.
00:13:30And to be able to recommend pausing to address some security issues.
00:13:36I think, I think that's, that's the, that's sort of the, the easy, quick thing that we can do.
00:13:40And it can, it can evolve to more than that over time.
00:13:42Um, but that's, um, that I think would be a smart move.
00:13:46But why, why haven't you done that yet?
00:13:48I mean, there's like five of you, right?
00:13:49I mean, everyone knows the first name, Dario, Demis, Sam, I mean, you don't all like each other very much.
00:13:58We'll know each other.
00:14:07Yeah.
00:14:07I think if, um, I think it's quite difficult for someone in the government who doesn't have a deep technical
00:14:12understanding and isn't driving the frontier of, of AI to know whether something should be released or not.
00:14:20Um, however, the competitors, I think will, it can, you know, if given sort of a week or two to
00:14:26review a new model, um, can highlight issues and, uh, and have an incentive to keep, all the competitors have
00:14:34an incentive to keep the others honest.
00:14:35Do you have enough trust between you to do that?
00:14:37I mean, you don't much like each other.
00:14:38Wouldn't, wouldn't Sam Altman just think you're going to nick all his ideas if you did that?
00:14:43Well, we're just talking about a week, honestly, I think as little as a week is all that would be
00:14:48needed, uh, for private testing.
00:14:51It's not to, it's not to hand over the AI.
00:14:54It's just to test it.
00:14:54To test it.
00:14:55Have you proposed this?
00:14:56Yeah, just to test it via an API or something.
00:14:59Um, I think that would probably be a good thing to do.
00:15:03Um.
00:15:03Have you, have you proposed it?
00:15:04I mean, you could presumably organize that.
00:15:06That's what I suggested to, to Demis.
00:15:07And I guess, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll talk to Daria about it too.
00:15:12Um, there's also, of course, um, some very competent, uh, Chinese AI companies, um, that, uh, several, several that are,
00:15:25that are very good.
00:15:26Um, the new Kimi model.
00:15:28Kimi K3, yeah, the one that came out last week has, I mean, it was always as good as Fable,
00:15:31right?
00:15:31So it's.
00:15:32Well, um, I, I think realistically Fable is, is still, uh, clearly the smartest model.
00:15:40Um, I think, and anyone realistically would say that that's still the case, but the Kimi model is getting quite
00:15:47close to Fable.
00:15:49Um, now Anthropic had, uh, mythos from which Fable is derived.
00:15:55I think they had that ready in February.
00:16:01So they've got, they've got for it, what they call, I'm not sure what they call it, but mythos two
00:16:06or Fable six or something, something much better than what they had in February.
00:16:10They almost certainly have, not almost certainly, they certainly have right now.
00:16:14So, uh, and I think they could, they, they could release it at any time.
00:16:19Just before we get onto, to releasing, how do you think about the Chinese models and the geopolitics of it?
00:16:25Are you worried about the Chinese catching up and getting ahead?
00:16:29Given that the Chinese AI companies are, um, are doing as well as they are with a relatively small amount
00:16:37of compute.
00:16:39Uh, it seems so as that if they had a lot of compute, um, there's a good chance that they
00:16:45would be the leaders.
00:16:48And at some point they probably will have a lot of compute.
00:16:51Um, so they will, ergo, they will be the leaders.
00:16:59There's a good chance that they are the leaders at some point.
00:17:01Um, you can think of like the, the constraints on AI, essentially electricity and AI chips.
00:17:12Um, and then for physical AI, the robots, uh, China's also got some very good robot companies.
00:17:19In fact, they have these like robot sporting events.
00:17:21I don't know if you've seen some of them.
00:17:22Yes, I have.
00:17:23I saw them last time I was in Beijing.
00:17:24I saw the robots.
00:17:26Yeah.
00:17:26Well, and then they have the sort of like a, like a boxing match or fighting match with, um, the
00:17:31robots, which is quite entertaining.
00:17:32And I saw, I saw some video of a robot that got his head knocked off, kept fighting, even with
00:17:36its head knocked off.
00:17:38Uh, it looked pretty funny, but, um, I mean, in fact, I think the, the robot battles are going to
00:17:42be quite entertaining to watch.
00:17:43Um, but, but just so, so China is, China is very strong on robots, very strong on digital AI.
00:17:51And, and if you look at electricity production, you say like AI is a function of whatever, whatever the limiting
00:17:59factor is, if it's chips or electricity, China has far more electricity than the United States.
00:18:04In fact, China has more electricity than the United States, Europe and India combined already.
00:18:11Um, and is heading to, um, my guess is China gets to four times the electricity production of the US,
00:18:18which is roughly proportionate to the population.
00:18:21What should the US government do about this?
00:18:24I mean, if you, you, you, presumably it is a little alarming if you have an authoritarian regime far ahead
00:18:29in the most powerful technology.
00:18:30And clearly what, what the US government has been trying to do is with the export controls and so forth,
00:18:36keep China back.
00:18:37Do you think they should ban the use of K3, Kimi K3, for example?
00:18:42Well, the US government can't, they can, they can pass some law that prevents US companies from using, um, Chinese
00:18:51models, but they can't stop the rest of the world from, from using them.
00:18:53Um, so it's, it's not like the US government has authority over China or the rest of the world.
00:19:00Um, do you think they should stop US companies from using them?
00:19:03Let's talk of that right now, right?
00:19:06I don't think that, that helps.
00:19:08Um, that won't stop China from being the leader in AI.
00:19:14Really it's for, for digital intelligence, it comes down to, uh, how much AI compute do you have?
00:19:21Well, how many chips, chips do you have?
00:19:24And how much power do you have?
00:19:26How much electricity do you have?
00:19:28Um, so the, the constraint right now, I think is actually slightly more on power and cooling than it is
00:19:37on AI chips,
00:19:38because, um, the, the power demands of the AI chips are very, very high.
00:19:43Um, we'll talk about water demands, but the, really the water usage of AI is negligible, almost nothing.
00:19:50Um, but the, the electrical demand is very high.
00:19:53That's why you're thinking of orbital data centers, presumably, that's, that's...
00:19:56Yes, the constraint for any AI chips not being turned on in China is electricity and, like power and cooling,
00:20:04and the electrical equipment and everything.
00:20:07Um, the rate at which AI chips are being made exceeds the rate at which new electricity is coming online.
00:20:14In China?
00:20:15Um, outside of China.
00:20:17Outside China, I see, yeah.
00:20:18Um, and since China, you know, the US has banned the export of the latest AI chips to China, um,
00:20:27China is, is somewhat chip starved.
00:20:29So, so...
00:20:29But they are becoming much more efficient at using the chips that they have.
00:20:33And that, that, that, one of the striking things of Kimi K3, right, is how efficiently they...
00:20:36And, and, and China is also, um, I, I think, close than most people realize to solving, uh, the lithography
00:20:46problem,
00:20:48which would enable them to make, uh, AI chips at, at very large volumes.
00:20:55So, so I think there's, you know, I mean, this shouldn't devolve into just a China conversation, but, um...
00:21:02But, but, but, so the current constraint is, is electricity outside of China, and China the constraint is chips.
00:21:07Uh, once the, uh, once we address the, the power constraint with, um, AI data centers in space, uh, then
00:21:17the constraint will once again be chips outside of China.
00:21:21That suggests to me that you need China and the US, if you're going to have some overall safety constraints,
00:21:27that they will need to work together.
00:21:29If you are going to try and, and you suggested, you know, the five model makers here working.
00:21:35Uh, probably it should include, um, the Chinese companies that are doing frontier AI models too.
00:21:43And do you think the governments need to be involved?
00:21:46My recommendation would be that if, if some of the leading companies in AI, in AI say that, uh, this,
00:21:54a new model is very dangerous,
00:21:58then they should inform the government, and, and, and, and a new model is very dangerous, and that the company
00:22:05producing that model is not taking steps to address the danger,
00:22:09then, then they should alert the government to take action, um, to limit the, uh, release of that model.
00:22:19Um, and that could be action by the Chinese government or action by the US government.
00:22:23Um, it's, it's really, it's really just the US government and the Chinese government that, that have the power to
00:22:29take action here.
00:22:29But the, I guess people would be worried about relying on a group of model builders to decide whether to
00:22:38do this.
00:22:38I mean, if you look at what the US government has done with, with Mythos, they stepped in because they
00:22:43were worried about the cybersecurity risks,
00:22:45and they stepped in using, you know, threat of export controls to, you know, prevent the widespread release of this
00:22:52model.
00:22:52I find it hard to see how governments will not want to keep that power, that they ultimately decide whether
00:22:59a model gets released.
00:23:00I think they should keep, they should have that power, but it, it wasn't as though someone in the government
00:23:05figured out that Mythos, uh, was, had, had some scary cybersecurity, uh, risks.
00:23:15It, it was Amazon. Um, Amazon highlighted this, and Amazon called the White House.
00:23:21So you'd have a system where the model makers would check each other's work.
00:23:25If there was something that worried them, you'd tell the government.
00:23:28Yeah.
00:23:28The government would then think.
00:23:29If there's something that was worrisome and that company was not doing anything to address that risk, then that would
00:23:35be the moment for government to step in and take action, which is literally what just occurred with us.
00:23:41How soon does the US have to happen?
00:23:44Well, I think it'd be good to do that. I think immediately, really.
00:23:50Yeah.
00:23:50Yeah. That's what people keep telling me. We have to get this, some kind of system in the next six
00:23:54months because of the pace at which the models are improving.
00:23:58Yeah. Six months is a long time. Um, so you think shorter than that?
00:24:04Well, I mean, there's, there's so many AI breakthrough announcements, sometimes multiple per day.
00:24:12I mean, how many were there last week?
00:24:14A lot.
00:24:15I lost track, you know.
00:24:16Yeah. A lot.
00:24:19Um, so, so you, you basically, you know, whether it's Demis' proposal or others, you need to get together and
00:24:24get this set up kind of now, it sounds like you're telling me.
00:24:27Yeah. I, I, I would recommend that we at least have some sort of informal, um, weekly or biweekly, um,
00:24:36call and that there's, that, that, um, there's maybe a week or two weeks of, of early access by competitors.
00:24:46Um, and this is why I think the incentives work is because if, if, if, you know, competing companies, I
00:24:51think are likely to understand if something is a security risk and they're, they're not going to be shy about
00:24:57highlighting that, that their, their competitors' models should be delayed in release.
00:25:02Is that?
00:25:03I think the incentive structure does work quite well there.
00:25:05And, and if the, if, and if the, this is sort of how it works with the motion picture association,
00:25:10you know, the, it's, it's an industry group that, uh, decides how, how movies should be rated, you know, whether
00:25:18it's appropriate for, for young children or, or not.
00:25:21Um, and that's, uh, that seems to have worked quite well.
00:25:26So, um, and, and, and, and then you really just ask, have asked the government to intervene if, if some,
00:25:32if a company is doing something very dangerous and refuses to take action to reduce the danger.
00:25:38Do you think this is a, this is a tricky one, but you guys don't much like each other and
00:25:44you don't much trust each other.
00:25:45You're insulting each other on, on social media constantly.
00:25:47So do you, do you think you can do that with people that you dislike that where there seems to
00:25:52be such kind of personal vitriol between some of these leaders?
00:25:57Um, yes.
00:25:59Well, I'm, I'm not a fan of Sam Elman because, um,
00:26:02You're watching my interview with Elon Musk.
00:26:05If you want to get early access to other interviews, subscribe to The Economist by clicking the link above.
00:26:11Now back to the interview.
00:26:13If you started a nonprofit that was meant to be an open source AI company and, um, you know, owned
00:26:22by the world, uh, and it somehow got turned into an $800 billion for profit company with closed source.
00:26:29I think you'd be like, well, wait a second.
00:26:30That's, uh, the exact opposite of what I donated the money for.
00:26:34That that's my issue.
00:26:36I think it's a legitimate one.
00:26:37Um, and then Dario, I think also is not a fan of Sam Altman because he felt, uh, in fact,
00:26:43the reason the Anthropic team left open AI is because they, they didn't trust Sam Altman.
00:26:48Otherwise Anthropic wouldn't exist.
00:26:50They would still be at open AI.
00:26:52Um, I, I think Dario is a very principled person.
00:26:57He cares about things a lot.
00:26:59Uh, cares about the future of the world.
00:27:02And I, I think everyone I've met at Anthropic so far has been, I mean, like no one set off
00:27:07my evil detector.
00:27:08You know, they always seem, seem like they're well-intentioned.
00:27:12Um, and, uh, the road to hell is, I think mostly paved with bad intentions.
00:27:17There are a few well-intentioned paving stones in there, so we, we don't want to be complacent.
00:27:22Um, but, uh, you know, at the end of the day, if we have to talk, we'll talk.
00:27:26I mean, set aside our personal differences for the good of the world type of thing.
00:27:30For the good of the world.
00:27:30Well, that's, that's a very good thing for the rest of us to hear.
00:27:33Yeah.
00:27:35Um.
00:27:35Can I, can we turn to one other risk that people worry about?
00:27:38Particularly, I think, ordinary Americans where, you know, AI has become incredibly unpopular.
00:27:4375% of people are worried about it.
00:27:45And I think they worry about their jobs.
00:27:47And if you look at, Dario has said, uh, famously what 50% of entry-level jobs, entry-level white
00:27:54-collar jobs will be gone within a few years.
00:27:57Yes.
00:27:57You're building humanoid robots.
00:27:59Yes.
00:27:59He also said, like, I mean, Dario did dig his own grave here regarding Mythos because he said, you know,
00:28:05Mythos is like super scary, terrifying.
00:28:08And also, by the way, we're going to release it.
00:28:10And then he's like, what do you mean?
00:28:12You know, so I think he, um, I think probably in the future we'll choose his words differently.
00:28:18Um.
00:28:20But what's your sense of-
00:28:20Because obviously if you make, if you terrify everyone and then say, oh, we're releasing this terrifying thing, people will
00:28:25obviously be alarmed about that.
00:28:27You know, you've literally told them to be scared and then you release the scary thing and so they will
00:28:31be scared.
00:28:32That is natural.
00:28:34So I, I certainly don't want you to alarm people, but I do think there is a really important debate
00:28:39about how quickly and to what degree AIs displace people from jobs.
00:28:45Because it is, as you say, if we're in 10 years, it's more, it's, there's more intelligence, artificial intelligence than
00:28:49any human intelligence.
00:28:51Yes.
00:28:51And if you are, and if you're ahead of everyone, at least in this country on powering humanoid robots, that's,
00:28:57that's also going to be kind of factory work.
00:29:01So do you, are you part, do you, are you closer to Dario, let's say, in your sense of the
00:29:06pace at which jobs are going to be displaced?
00:29:11I, I do think it's going to be a bumpy road, um, because AI will be able to do any
00:29:19job better than any person can do that job.
00:29:23Um, and that will be true very quickly of jobs that, um, are digital or really anything that involves a
00:29:33person at a computer or on a phone.
00:29:35And I could do all of that, um, we'll, we'll be able to do all of that very soon.
00:29:41I mean, for software engineering, we already have a situation where AI is better than at least 90% of
00:29:51humans, um,
00:29:52at writing software or 90% of professional software engineers at writing software.
00:29:59And I mean, really it's getting to the point where it'll be better than 99%.
00:30:03And then it'll get to the point where there's just no way to compete.
00:30:07It'll, it'll get to what I call stock fish level.
00:30:10So stock fish, stock fish is the chess program that, um, stock fish is so good at chess that, you
00:30:20know, it, it will,
00:30:22it will easily beat Magnus Carlsen or anyone, uh, at chess, um, on a, even running on a small computer.
00:30:30I suspect that you could probably run stock fish on your phone and beat Magnus Carlsen.
00:30:36That's how good it is at chess.
00:30:38And that's how good AI will be at writing software.
00:30:41And beyond software?
00:30:44Beyond.
00:30:44And that applies to everything.
00:30:46Everything, everything, everything, everything.
00:30:49But what about you for, for physical jobs, for assembly jobs, you will also need the capability in humanoid robots,
00:30:56which so far isn't there yet.
00:30:58Is it?
00:30:59Uh, right.
00:31:01So that's why I said digital AI and then physically manifested AI in the form of robots where the robot
00:31:06is, is more or less an end effector.
00:31:09It would have some amount of local intelligence, but be managed by a large AI model.
00:31:16Um, and, uh, I, and I've said many times, I think work is going to be optional.
00:31:25So, I mean, let me, so, so I think maybe, maybe a good, a good, uh, comparison would be, um,
00:31:34gardening.
00:31:36Like, you don't have to garden, you know, you don't like, you, you don't have to grow vegetables in your,
00:31:41in your garden.
00:31:42You can go to the store and there are going to be pristine vegetables, or you could grow vegetables in
00:31:47your garden and they will actually be, uh, less perfect.
00:31:51Your tomatoes are not going to be as plump and juicy as the ones at the store.
00:31:56They, they, they, they'll, you know, look a little artisanal.
00:32:00Um, but you know, if you, if you go to a friend's house and they, they make dinner and it's
00:32:05with vegetables from their garden, it's, it's a nice touch.
00:32:09So that's what work is going to be like.
00:32:12I get that.
00:32:13I mean, in that world, I would be hopeless cause I can't garden to save my life, but I get
00:32:16the idea.
00:32:17People still like playing chess with each other, even though every computer is better, but let's just, let's just think
00:32:21about the politics of this.
00:32:22Yeah, because it sounds to you're describing a world where within 10 years, pretty much every job can be done
00:32:28better by an intelligence.
00:32:31And yes, you're seeing huge returns to this intelligence to people like you, you're the wealthiest man in the world.
00:32:37What people who lose their jobs, who are displaced, who may go off and garden, but how are they going
00:32:42to live?
00:32:42And what kind of, I mean, it sounds to me like universal high income, but how are you going to
00:32:48get there?
00:32:48Let's talk about the politics of this because right now we, if we look at the political pressures in most
00:32:54countries, people are very, very worried about this, very against it.
00:32:58I mean, it seems to me that there's a risk that we are heading more for revolution than for an
00:33:02easy route to this Nirvana you're playing out.
00:33:04I mean, it will be a bumpy road. I'm not suggesting it will be sort of, that everything will be
00:33:12smooth sailing here.
00:33:16So, I mean, there are many jobs that used to exist that don't exist because of computers.
00:33:22I mean, the word computer used to refer to a person doing computations, like that used to be a job
00:33:29description of a person.
00:33:30And you can see pictures online of buildings that have entire skyscrapers just filled with people doing calculations to do
00:33:40things like calculate the interest on your bank balance.
00:33:45This is how things were done for a long time until computers came around.
00:33:51And even in the beginning, computers were very expensive and hard to use.
00:33:55So, the thing that's different here is that the pace of change is radically accelerated.
00:34:03So, but still people, you know, some people were upset that their job of calculating bank interest would no longer
00:34:11be available.
00:34:14But now I think you'd be hard pressed to find people who wanted to do that job.
00:34:20So, I think, I have a suggestion for, say, what science fiction books people might want to read to get
00:34:30a sense of what the future will be like.
00:34:33And the best envisioning of an AI future that I've read are the books by Ian Banks, the culture books.
00:34:40I'm just reading Accession.
00:34:41So, thanks to you, I've started reading these.
00:34:45But I actually don't find that future a terribly appealing one because I don't think humans have agency in that
00:34:50future.
00:34:51They have agency.
00:34:53Minimal compared to the minds.
00:34:55In their small way.
00:34:56But the irony, I mean, Ian Banks, as you know, was a socialist.
00:34:59Ian Banks had a very different political philosophy.
00:35:03I'm not sure that's, I'm not sure I would entirely agree with that.
00:35:06Let's agree that that could be where we end up.
00:35:08I'm concerned about the road.
00:35:10And we live, you know, we live in democracies.
00:35:13And people are very worried about this.
00:35:15So, I guess two questions.
00:35:17Firstly, do you have to have massive redistribution from people like you to the people who are losing their jobs?
00:35:24Do you need to have, do you need to pay more tax?
00:35:27Do you have much higher taxes on capital so that you fund some kind of universal income?
00:35:32Otherwise, what do people live off?
00:35:35I think that the Treasury should just simply issue people checks.
00:35:39But where's the revenue coming from?
00:35:41I mean, I'm enough of an economist.
00:35:42If you just issue checks, you're going to have inflation.
00:35:45It doesn't matter.
00:35:46This is, like, a lot of what we're trying to think about is these things were relevant in the past.
00:35:52They will not be relevant in the future.
00:35:54So, like, inflation is simply the ratio of money to goods and services.
00:36:01So, if the goods and services output increases dramatically, if it increases, you know, a thousand percent,
00:36:08you can increase the, you can literally print, or in this case, change the database, not print money.
00:36:15It's, you create money in the database.
00:36:18Provided the creation of that money is less than the rate at which goods and services increase, you actually have
00:36:28deflation.
00:36:28So, I'll make a prediction, which is that deflation will be the issue, not inflation.
00:36:35Because as the output of goods and services increases, if the output of goods and services increases faster than the
00:36:41money supply, you will have deflation.
00:36:43I'm actually, I'm perfectly willing to believe that.
00:36:45You may well be right.
00:36:46It's just a statement of fact.
00:36:46Absolutely.
00:36:47You may well be right.
00:36:48But I'm really hung up on how we get from the current polarized, angry, fearful policy we have now to
00:36:59this nirvana.
00:37:00And I think you could, you can paint a picture where people are so scared by this, you know, they
00:37:05essentially try to stop it.
00:37:06Maybe they can't, but you get nationalized.
00:37:09There's a kind of, you know, far left government.
00:37:13There's exorbitant tax increases.
00:37:15The kind of economy crumbles because people are so worried about a future, which does sound quite scary as you
00:37:20describe it.
00:37:20So how do you, how do you handle the politics now?
00:37:23It's exhilarating and terrifying.
00:37:26But if you were in the, yeah, exactly.
00:37:27I agree.
00:37:28Honestly, if you ask me on any given day, I, in fact, even intraday, I've gone from exhilaration to terror
00:37:36regarding AI.
00:37:37So I want to be clear.
00:37:39Where are you right now?
00:37:39I'm not sort of some, you know, I'm not trying to be sort of Candide here and just be some,
00:37:44oh, everything's wonderful.
00:37:45Some Pan Glossian view of the world where everything's, you know, going to be great.
00:37:51No, no, no risk.
00:37:52I'm saying there is some risk.
00:37:54I think we agree on that.
00:37:55I guess I'm trying to be more sort of, you know, small bore and practical and think about what can
00:38:02be done now to limit those risks.
00:38:04And you gave a very strong argument for what you and your fellow model makers could do.
00:38:08What should governments do?
00:38:08I think it probably would be good for us to coordinate and just highlight issues that we see in each
00:38:14other's models.
00:38:15To mitigate downside risk.
00:38:18Should the government, should you be paying more tax to fund more transfer programs?
00:38:23Well, first of all, I do pay a lot of tax.
00:38:29So, in fact, I set a record for the most amount of taxes ever paid by a human.
00:38:36That's also because you're the world's richest man.
00:38:38Well, even before that.
00:38:42So, my guess is that I will pay many trillions in tax and I'm fine with that.
00:38:50So, yeah, that's just the way it's going to be.
00:38:54But I don't think in a future way money is relevant.
00:38:58I think taxation also becomes somewhat irrelevant.
00:39:01And what about giving people a sense that they have a share in the upside?
00:39:04Sure.
00:39:05Giving people shares in SpaceX and Tesla.
00:39:08Do you think that's so, and there's a lot of talk about this right now.
00:39:11Well, one of the reasons I took SpaceX public is so that the public could participate in,
00:39:17because they could own a piece of SpaceX, whereas as a private company,
00:39:21we're very limited in the number of shareholders we're allowed to have before going public.
00:39:26So, as a public company, we can have millions of shareholders.
00:39:29As a private company, we're limited to just a few thousand shareholders.
00:39:35So...
00:39:36Do you think there should be distribution of shares?
00:39:38Like, you know, the Alaska Wealth Fund is there for...
00:39:41Could you imagine a world...
00:39:43And some people talk about the Trump accounts being a kind of vehicle for this,
00:39:46that you...
00:39:47A share of your equity goes to ordinary Americans.
00:39:51Right.
00:39:52Well, in the taxes that I pay, I mean, I'll...
00:39:56You know, so for my stock options, I pay 40% income tax on a national basis.
00:40:04And then because I spend, I don't know, about 30% of my time in California, thereabouts,
00:40:10I pay another sort of roughly a third of the California state taxes, which is...
00:40:15Are now around 15%.
00:40:16So I pay about 45% in taxes, just so people know this.
00:40:21You know, I don't know.
00:40:22It's quite...
00:40:23So roughly half.
00:40:24Yeah.
00:40:25Then when I die, there'll be another sort of 45%, roughly half, that will be taxed.
00:40:34So at the end of the day, I'll probably...
00:40:36I'll have a quarter of whatever I have.
00:40:39But the...
00:40:44I think the only thing it gives me is that for some period of time, I would have control
00:40:49of the direction of the companies.
00:40:53So it's not...
00:40:55That's pretty much all it gets me.
00:40:57And until I guess the AI is so smart that it's in charge.
00:41:02And at that point, controlling companies won't really matter.
00:41:06Well, let's talk about that.
00:41:07Because I think one of the other things that worries people about the direction we're heading
00:41:12in, and I'm going to caricature it, but people think that the direction of the world is being
00:41:16shaped by a very small number of incredibly powerful people.
00:41:20And you are right at the top of that list.
00:41:22What else is...
00:41:23But is this different from the past?
00:41:25I agree with you.
00:41:25I think it was like that...
00:41:27When wasn't that the case?
00:41:28It was ever thus.
00:41:29It was ever thus, exactly.
00:41:31It is a...
00:41:31As you've described very vividly, it's an incredibly rapid change.
00:41:35And so let's start with control of your company, which you definitely have now.
00:41:38After the IPO, basically you have 80% odd of voting shares.
00:41:43And as I understand it, you can only be removed by a vote of shares which you yourself control.
00:41:48So tell me if I'm wrong, but I think you could go crazy.
00:41:51There's a few companies in that bucket.
00:41:52By the way, the AI companies...
00:41:55Google's in that bucket.
00:41:57Alphabet is controlled by Larry and Sergey.
00:42:00But I think yours is more extreme.
00:42:01The inability to...
00:42:02No, it's the same level.
00:42:03They have voting control of that company.
00:42:07Mark Zuckerberg has control over Meta.
00:42:10And, you know, Mark is trying very hard on the AI front.
00:42:14And I think probably we'll also have a leading AI.
00:42:18He's made...
00:42:18I think he released one last week.
00:42:21So I think he'll be one of the...
00:42:25You know, Meta will be one of the AI companies.
00:42:27But is it sensible for one person to have so much control over a company?
00:42:33Well, I really just need to make sure that I can focus on long-term...
00:42:39By long-term, I just mean in the five to ten years.
00:42:45So one of the challenges with being a public company is that...
00:42:48Is other sort of...
00:42:50The pressure to have great results every single quarter.
00:42:55But...
00:42:55And to not really invest in things that may only pay off in five to ten years.
00:43:03And, you know, in the case of SpaceX, I need...
00:43:06I want to extend consciousness beyond Earth.
00:43:10And...
00:43:10And have a...
00:43:12Growing civilization on the Moon, Mars, and elsewhere in the solar system.
00:43:17The return...
00:43:18I think ultimately this would have a very high return on investment.
00:43:21But in the short term, we'll be spending all this money on a Moon base.
00:43:24Or...
00:43:25And a Mars base.
00:43:26And then people are like...
00:43:27You know, I'm gonna...
00:43:28Get all this pressure for like...
00:43:30Well, you missed your earnings this quarter because you spent too much on Mars.
00:43:33And I'm like...
00:43:34Yes.
00:43:34By the way, that was in the...
00:43:35In the...
00:43:36S1 prospectus.
00:43:37And it's...
00:43:38It's literally listed as a thing we will do.
00:43:41Um...
00:43:41So...
00:43:43But...
00:43:43But...
00:43:43But they still get grumpy about these things, you know?
00:43:45So...
00:43:45Because they're like...
00:43:46Well, you had...
00:43:47Whatever...
00:43:47You know, you said your gross margin would be this.
00:43:49And it's actually slightly worse.
00:43:51And now...
00:43:52Now we're gonna punish you.
00:43:53And the short sellers all descend upon you.
00:43:55And...
00:43:56You get a lot of pressure in the public market.
00:43:57But...
00:43:58Yeah.
00:43:58So I just need some way to sort of...
00:44:00You know, say like...
00:44:01Listen guys.
00:44:02We're...
00:44:02We're gonna focus on 5 to 10 year or longer time horizon investments.
00:44:07This will depress our short term earnings.
00:44:09But...
00:44:10The long...
00:44:10I mean...
00:44:11If you take a long term view.
00:44:12And there are investors...
00:44:13We have many investors that do take a long term view.
00:44:15In fact...
00:44:15I'm a big fan of the retail investors.
00:44:18In fact...
00:44:18I find our retail investors...
00:44:20Um...
00:44:20On balance...
00:44:21Have the...
00:44:22Have the...
00:44:22They're very insightful.
00:44:25And...
00:44:25And have very long term views.
00:44:28Um...
00:44:28But...
00:44:29But...
00:44:30Part of this comes...
00:44:30You say...
00:44:30What's the incentive structure?
00:44:31The...
00:44:32For...
00:44:33Portfolio managers...
00:44:34It's sort of understandable why...
00:44:36Why they put so much pressure on...
00:44:37On a...
00:44:38On quarterly earnings.
00:44:39Because...
00:44:40Um...
00:44:40Their...
00:44:41Their compensation...
00:44:42And their...
00:44:43And whether they get promoted or not...
00:44:46Is dependent on how their portfolio does.
00:44:48And...
00:44:49They have...
00:44:49They only have a few years...
00:44:51To...
00:44:52To make these...
00:44:53Decisions.
00:44:54Um...
00:44:54And then...
00:44:55They're evaluated based on those decisions...
00:44:57Over the course of...
00:44:58Sometimes only...
00:44:59A year or less.
00:45:01And...
00:45:02And so...
00:45:02Since...
00:45:03Since they're under pressure...
00:45:04To...
00:45:05Have immediate returns...
00:45:07They then put companies under pressure...
00:45:08To have immediate returns.
00:45:09And...
00:45:09So once you...
00:45:11Understand the incentive structure...
00:45:12The behavior...
00:45:13Naturally follows.
00:45:14What about the...
00:45:15Key man risk?
00:45:17I mean...
00:45:18What happens...
00:45:19You know...
00:45:19I haven't forbid...
00:45:20But what happens if you get run over...
00:45:21By the proverbial bus tomorrow?
00:45:23You know...
00:45:24It is...
00:45:25You...
00:45:26You have total control over these companies.
00:45:28Do you have a plan...
00:45:29For how they would progress without you?
00:45:31I think they would actually...
00:45:33Do very well for...
00:45:35For several years.
00:45:39Um...
00:45:40And...
00:45:41You know...
00:45:41There's a clear roadmap for...
00:45:43Or space map...
00:45:44I should say...
00:45:45For SpaceX.
00:45:47Um...
00:45:47And there's a...
00:45:49Roadmap...
00:45:50Actually for Tesla...
00:45:51Literally.
00:45:52Um...
00:45:53So...
00:45:54I think...
00:45:54I think there's...
00:45:55You know...
00:45:56If you look at Apple...
00:45:57After Steve Jobs...
00:45:58Steve Jobs had...
00:46:00You know...
00:46:00He...
00:46:00He had a strategic vision...
00:46:02And a bunch of products that...
00:46:04Um...
00:46:05That...
00:46:05That he had...
00:46:07And Apple...
00:46:08Has done very well...
00:46:10Um...
00:46:10But...
00:46:11But...
00:46:11When you don't have...
00:46:13A creative genius like...
00:46:14Steve Jobs...
00:46:15You don't...
00:46:17You...
00:46:17You...
00:46:18What you miss...
00:46:18What Apple's missing...
00:46:20Are...
00:46:20The incredible breakthrough products.
00:46:22Yeah.
00:46:23So...
00:46:24They make amazing phones...
00:46:26You know...
00:46:26Great computers...
00:46:27Um...
00:46:28But...
00:46:28Apple hasn't come up with this sort of...
00:46:30Steve Jobs...
00:46:31Steve Jobs...
00:46:32Level breakthrough product.
00:46:33So...
00:46:33By analogy...
00:46:34That's what...
00:46:35You bring to all of your companies.
00:46:37Yeah.
00:46:38You mentioned...
00:46:39Mars...
00:46:40You know...
00:46:41Most people think of you...
00:46:42As the man who wants to...
00:46:44You know...
00:46:44Create a colony on Mars...
00:46:46So we have...
00:46:46Multiplanetary civilization.
00:46:48I've been saying that for such a long time.
00:46:49You have...
00:46:50But now you seem...
00:46:51More focused...
00:46:53On AI...
00:46:53And what AI will do in the next 10 years.
00:46:56And you...
00:46:56You sound much more excited about...
00:46:58Using the moon as a base from which to...
00:47:00You know...
00:47:01Pop out...
00:47:02Orbital...
00:47:02AI satellites.
00:47:04I...
00:47:05Have you shifted your attention away from Mars?
00:47:07Or are you as...
00:47:08Interested in colonizing Mars as you ever were?
00:47:11I...
00:47:12I'm...
00:47:12I'm interested in...
00:47:13The set of actions that...
00:47:15Propagate consciousness into the future...
00:47:17To the maximum degree possible.
00:47:19So that...
00:47:20The future light cone of consciousness...
00:47:22Is as big as...
00:47:24As big as we could...
00:47:25You know...
00:47:25Like...
00:47:26There's an exciting...
00:47:28Future...
00:47:29Where there's...
00:47:29Where we're...
00:47:30A space-faring civilization out there among the stars...
00:47:33And...
00:47:34And the...
00:47:35The great things that are envisioned in the...
00:47:39Non-dystopian sci-fi...
00:47:42Books and movies...
00:47:44Become real one day.
00:47:46I sort of want the Star Trek...
00:47:48You know...
00:47:50Star Wars future...
00:47:51The Star Wars was the first movie I ever saw in the theater by the way.
00:47:53Really?
00:47:53Yes...
00:47:54Probably...
00:47:54Maybe it had a profound effect on me I suppose.
00:47:56But...
00:47:57So...
00:47:57I remember...
00:47:58I was...
00:48:00It blew my mind honestly.
00:48:01I was...
00:48:02I think I was six years old.
00:48:03And...
00:48:04I was like...
00:48:04This is the greatest thing I've ever seen.
00:48:06Has your life been about making that happen?
00:48:09Yeah...
00:48:10I mean it...
00:48:11I didn't think it would be but...
00:48:13When I was young but...
00:48:15My life feels somewhat surreal.
00:48:17I can't believe these things are actually happening.
00:48:18You know...
00:48:20I think the world feels somewhat surreal.
00:48:22It makes me believe in simulation theory.
00:48:23Yeah.
00:48:24Where it's like...
00:48:25Well this...
00:48:27Like the things I'm doing are so preposterous that...
00:48:31It's hard to believe they're real.
00:48:33I mean we've got Starship which is...
00:48:36The...
00:48:36Largest, most powerful...
00:48:38Flying object ever made.
00:48:41Um...
00:48:42And we intend to launch that...
00:48:45More than once per hour.
00:48:47I know.
00:48:48I read that.
00:48:49And we can...
00:48:50You know people can quibble about how quickly it happens.
00:48:52But I think based on your track record we should assume it will happen at some point.
00:48:56It will happen.
00:48:57I'm just sort of struck...
00:48:58Although when I...
00:48:59When I...
00:48:59I am as blown away by this world as you are.
00:49:02And I'm...
00:49:02I watch it from a...
00:49:03From a much...
00:49:04More naive level.
00:49:06But...
00:49:06For me the whole...
00:49:08Evolution of AI and the capabilities of these models...
00:49:11Is...
00:49:11In and of itself so...
00:49:14Mind-blowing.
00:49:15It's pretty much happening as I...
00:49:16As I thought it would.
00:49:18Is it?
00:49:18Yeah.
00:49:19Oh that's interesting.
00:49:23Um...
00:49:23And...
00:49:24Not just me.
00:49:24Many people...
00:49:26Um...
00:49:27Predicted this.
00:49:27I think Ray Kurzweil predict...
00:49:29Ray Kurzweil's predictions have been remarkably accurate.
00:49:33Yeah.
00:49:33The singularity.
00:49:34Yeah.
00:49:35Approaching.
00:49:36Let's go back more immediately to the here and now.
00:49:38We've talked about concentration of control in your companies.
00:49:41You've made a very good case for why you should have it.
00:49:43You also have, through Starlink, incredible geopolitical power.
00:49:48I mean I'm...
00:49:49I'm one of your customers.
00:49:50Excellent product.
00:49:51Great.
00:49:52But without them the Ukrainians would have been in serious, serious trouble.
00:49:55And when you...
00:49:56Yes.
00:49:56The Ukrainian governors publicly thanked Starlink many times for being instrumental in defending
00:50:04Ukraine.
00:50:05And you recently decided to prevent the Russians in the occupied territories from having access
00:50:10to Starlink.
00:50:11Um...
00:50:12Well...
00:50:12No...
00:50:13We...
00:50:14We were never at any point selling Starlink to Russians.
00:50:18Um...
00:50:18But they were grabbing it, right?
00:50:19They were using it.
00:50:20Yes.
00:50:20And you've now stopped them from doing that.
00:50:22Well...
00:50:23They essentially got Starlink units that they ordered through Ukraine.
00:50:27And then...
00:50:28And then smuggled them into, uh...
00:50:31The, uh...
00:50:32Into eastern Ukraine where the Russians are.
00:50:34Um...
00:50:35And were then using them, um...
00:50:37In some cases for, um...
00:50:40Attacks.
00:50:41Um...
00:50:42Now, the...
00:50:44In order to address this, um...
00:50:47What we worked with the Ukrainian government to create a whitelist of approved Starlink terminals.
00:50:53Now, this has some downsides because a whole bunch of people who were just innocent users
00:50:58of Starlink and just trying to access the internet for work or for education, now don't
00:51:04have Starlink.
00:51:05These are geopolitical decisions of consequence.
00:51:08How do you feel about having that power?
00:51:11You can determine the outcome of wars.
00:51:13Uh...
00:51:13How does that feel?
00:51:14And is it right that you should have that power?
00:51:18Well, I...
00:51:18I'm not sure we...
00:51:19We're determining the ultimate outcome of the...
00:51:23You know, the...
00:51:24Let's say the war in Ukraine.
00:51:28Um...
00:51:29You know, I...
00:51:29I think, uh...
00:51:31I do hope that...
00:51:32That there's some sort of peace agreement reached soon because, um...
00:51:37For...
00:51:39Like two or three years now, the border has barely moved.
00:51:42And, um...
00:51:44And every day, there are lots of people dying at the front line.
00:51:48And, um...
00:51:51And I think there's a lot of wishful thinking here of people saying, well, Russia should completely withdraw, etc.
00:51:55But this is not realistic.
00:51:57Um...
00:51:58I really think there needs to be some...
00:52:02Um...
00:52:03Um...
00:52:04You know, a...
00:52:05A...
00:52:05A...
00:52:05A piece with that...
00:52:06That is...
00:52:08You know, we have to be pragmatic about this.
00:52:10What we can't...
00:52:11What I think would be terrible is if...
00:52:14If there's...
00:52:15If there's another three years of people dying senselessly at the front lines.
00:52:19lines. And you have to say like, well, you know, how do you explain to the children of
00:52:32the men that are dying at the front lines? Russia, on the Russian side too, by the way,
00:52:36they're being conscripted and sent there. I am quite offended by sort of fancy diplomats
00:52:41who have, you know, seven course dinners in, you know, in luxurious places while people
00:52:48are dying at the front lines and who pontificate about how Russia should withdraw, but they're not
00:52:53going to, Russia's not going to withdraw. So there really needs to be an accepted peace along those
00:53:01lines. And do you think it's your responsibility to play a role in tipping the scales towards what
00:53:09you see as the right way to peace? I've been advocating peace for a long time. I, you know,
00:53:15I, I, I posted a few years ago that, that, that there really needs to be some concession here to
00:53:22Russia. Um, this is not me being pro Russia. I'm just being pragmatic. Um, or people will die for
00:53:29years, uh, with nothing achieved. And that is exactly what happened. I don't know. I mean,
00:53:37the Ukrainians are doing, the Ukrainians are doing pretty well right now at, you know, with their
00:53:43incredible drone capacity hitting inside Russia and the, and the kind of general consensus is that,
00:53:49you know, the, the, the balance of the war is shifting. But my point is not so much about
00:53:54Ukraine is not going to retake those territories. It is not going to happen.
00:53:57My interest is really on whether you think, given that you, you have through Starlink, you have an
00:54:01incredible power, whether it's appropriate that you should wield it. And that's quite rare that an
00:54:08individual actor has such power by turning on and off a capability to shape conflict.
00:54:14Well, is there something you think I should do differently?
00:54:19I mean, I, I think you were right to support Ukraine. I think that, you know, as it won't
00:54:23surprise you, I, I think that the Russian aggression was, uh, you know, for many, many reasons,
00:54:29it was an appalling aggression. And I, I think that that was an important thing that you did.
00:54:33Yeah. I mean, I did a very deep dive into the background of that conflict to understand exactly
00:54:39what was going on. Um, and, um, I'm reminded of the old adage that there are no angels in war.
00:54:50It's a similar tone. I think about domestic politics where you've, you know, you've, you've played a big
00:54:57role domestically, politically here. You spend a lot of money on Donald Trump's re-election.
00:55:02After the election, you got very actively involved, you know, through doge, you tried to
00:55:06cut a lot of spending, reshape the government. How do you feel that it wasn't hugely successful
00:55:13in the sense that, you know, there wasn't nearly as much spending cut as you tried? How do you,
00:55:17as you look back on that, do you regret getting so involved in politics? Do you think it was a
00:55:22good
00:55:22thing to do? I think, I think I got a little too involved in politics, got carried away, frankly.
00:55:27Um, so the, um, you know, the, the, the goal with this sort of doge stuff was, was to try
00:55:34to do
00:55:35something about the, the deficit, which is massive, um, where the interest payments exceed the amount
00:55:41of money spent on the department of war. Like basically if you add up all the money spent on, um,
00:55:49what is now the department of war and the, uh, and, and intelligence in the US, uh, that is smaller
00:55:55than the interest payments on the debt. So that we, we, we, we need to sort of take a close
00:55:59look at
00:55:59spending, um, and make sure that, uh, money is being spent in sensible ways and that it is not
00:56:05wasted or spent on, on, on fraudulent activities. Um, and, um, I got a lot of flack from this,
00:56:13for, for this obviously. Um, but the, the, the people don't understand just how, um,
00:56:19simple it was for, for the doge team to approve payments. Um, if, if we had literally, we, we,
00:56:26we just asked to have the contact information of the recipient, um, or some evidence that say money
00:56:33was going to, um, its intended purpose. Um, but over and over there, we were told we need to wire
00:56:41money for
00:56:43some sort of important cause in Africa. And we're like, okay, but the wiring, wiring instructions
00:56:48are to Deloitte and Tush in DC, in Washington, DC, not to Africa. So we would like to send the
00:56:54money
00:56:54to Africa. Can you please connect us with the recipients so we can send them the money directly?
00:56:59And then we'd get silence. I have, we don't need to relitigate Doge. I have no doubt that there was,
00:57:05there's a lot of waste in the US government. I think probably much worse than anyone could possibly
00:57:11imagine. But the way, I mean, I think there is, it is a fair criticism, but the way you shut
00:57:15down
00:57:16a whole bunch of programs probably, in fact, certainly cause unnecessary suffering. I mean,
00:57:20no, no, no, no. You don't buy that at all? It caused a lot of complaining.
00:57:27You're watching my interview with Elon Musk. If you want to get early access to other interviews,
00:57:33subscribe to The Economist by clicking the link above. Now back to the interview.
00:57:37You don't, so you don't buy the idea that anybody, to put it really crudely and simply, any kid in
00:57:42Africa died because of the suddenness with which... Zero. I just don't think that's right. I just don't
00:57:48think my, I mean, I've had people reporting in Africa who... How many NGOs are there that could,
00:57:53that could, that could step in? Because bear in mind this, it was, it happened quickly. So this,
00:57:59and there are literally tens of thousands of NGOs. Yeah. Not everyone functions as fast as you do. If,
00:58:05if, if, if funding is cut off for antiretrovirals overnight and it just stops, then people will
00:58:11die when they don't have access to them. And it just... No, no. Only if they cannot get funding for
00:58:15that. But with the Gates Foundation has $50 billion. What's, why, why, what about them? What about any
00:58:22one of a number of organizations? What about, um, the, uh, um, Mackenzie Bezos's...
00:58:27Well, in lots of these countries, USAID... Mackenzie, whatever her last name is,
00:58:29used to be Bezos, uh, gave $50 billion. What about that? But, you know, let's be practical. In many
00:58:35of these countries, USAID was the biggest funder, but I, I don't want to have an argument...
00:58:38USAID was a political organization. It may also have been that, but it was the biggest funder of,
00:58:43of healthcare systems. So I, I am, I'm very sure that there was... Biggest funder of, of regime change.
00:58:49And, and there may well be benefits from having changed the system. Also, USAID funding was not
00:58:55stopped. It was moved to the State Department. It was stopped. There were huge numbers of things
00:58:58shut down in Africa that were, that were health related. No, there were claims of this.
00:59:02These claims are false. They're nonsense. And, and absolute nonsense. But, but obviously,
00:59:12when funding is stopped for fraudulent organizations or for something, do you think they're going to say,
00:59:19do you think they're going to say, well, we please keep funding the fraud? Or do you think they're going
00:59:24to come up with a sad story that sounds sympathetic in order to get the funding restored? Obviously,
00:59:30it will be the latter. And that's exactly what they did. But zero died because of Doge.
00:59:36Well, that's what I, that's what I would, that's what I would take issue with. Zero point zero.
00:59:40I think you can, I actually have a lot of sympathy for the change of the aid regime
00:59:44that the US under the Trump administration has precipitated. However, I think the pace and the
00:59:50suddenness with which it happened will almost certainly have caused unnecessary suffering and
00:59:56deaths. And I think both of those can be true. No, I think that's totally false.
00:59:59Okay. Well, it's obviously false because there are, the amount of funding we're talking about
01:00:06is far less than what can be done, than what can be supported by a private, by foundations like the
01:00:13Gates Foundation, or Mackenzie Bezos' foundation. She's given away tens of billions of dollars.
01:00:21The Gates Foundation has tens of billions of dollars. They are capable of acting very quickly.
01:00:27And if they didn't, I would say they're equally responsible.
01:00:30I see. Okay.
01:00:31Obviously.
01:00:32All right. Fair point.
01:00:34Zero people died because of Doge.
01:00:36I hear you loud and clear.
01:00:37Zero.
01:00:38I hear you loud and clear.
01:00:39Obviously.
01:00:42domestically. You stepped away from Doge. It was hard to do what you were trying to do. You've
01:00:46just explained it. But this administration has gone in directions that I suspect you were not
01:00:52expecting two and a half years ago. You know, the war in Iran.
01:00:56I'm not going to agree with everything any administration does.
01:00:59Are you disappointed by this administration?
01:01:01No, I think this administration, on balance, is excellent. No administration is perfect,
01:01:08but it's vastly better than the alternative.
01:01:12Can we talk about Europe? A place that you are very, very focused on.
01:01:17I'm not that focused on Europe.
01:01:19I think, judging by your posts, you're pretty concerned about Europe.
01:01:24You support...
01:01:25I mean, once in a while, I post something.
01:01:28It's reasonably frequently. It's not once in a while. But because I'm genuinely interested in this,
01:01:33as someone who lives in Europe, lives in London.
01:01:35You paint a picture. Well, first of all, you support not just the populist right,
01:01:39but the far right. In fact, very fringe parties in some countries.
01:01:42No, I support the normal people.
01:01:44What you call the far right, falsely.
01:01:46You think it's the normal person. Okay.
01:01:49Yes. Literally, you could go back 10 or 15 years, and these policies were completely normal.
01:01:57In fact, one of the tricks that I think is funny, what I think is quite funny, is to take
01:02:04a speech
01:02:04from Obama and Hillary, and then go to someone, say, who's sort of, you know, on the sort of what
01:02:12I call the lunatic left, and say, what do you think of the speech by Trump? Like, oh, wow,
01:02:17he's the worst person ever. Actually, that was a speech by Obama. Or actually, that was a speech by
01:02:21Hillary. No, I agree that the center of gravity in this country has shifted, certainly the
01:02:28Democratic Party has shifted to the left, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
01:02:31about people like Rupert Lowe. You're not fringe right, please.
01:02:33I'm talking about people on- It's actually just normal people.
01:02:35It's just normal people. It's just normal people. And here are the principles. And tell me,
01:02:40which of these sound terrible? That we should have secure borders, that we should have safe cities,
01:02:46that we should have sensible spending, which of those three are far-right fringe. And I would like
01:02:54to just admonish you and the media for the absurd characterization of the far-right. It is false and
01:03:03misleading and nonsense. Please keep this part in. We'll keep all of this in. Don't cut this part.
01:03:10Let me push back on that. Let me push back on that. Because it is nonsense. Elon, you have,
01:03:15what is it, close to 250 million followers on X. Yeah. You say things like- Popular guy.
01:03:21Quote, civil war in Britain is inevitable. Just a question of when. On the current trend, yes.
01:03:27When were you last in the UK? A few years ago. Exactly. So I live there. I'm there the whole
01:03:34time.
01:03:34That is nonsense. You live out of hoisted existence. No, I don't, actually. And the numbers also
01:03:38disprove what you say. What numbers? All the numbers about- London is a much safer city than
01:03:43any city in the United States. Violent crime in the UK is not where you think it is. In fact,
01:03:48it's coming down. You have painted, and because you have so many followers, so many Americans believe
01:03:52it, a kind of view that Europe and the UK are kind of overrun with terrifying Muslim immigrants.
01:04:01There's rape on every corner. There's a sort of civilizational destruction. I haven't said any of
01:04:05those things. It's just not, well, you say civil war in Britain is inevitable, and then-
01:04:08Yes. If current trends continue, it is. Why? Well, if you have a large and growing,
01:04:17rapidly growing group of people whose beliefs are antithetical to Western beliefs,
01:04:26at some point, there will be a reckoning. They will try to implement their views,
01:04:32and those who oppose it will oppose it, and that's what you call civil war. And obviously,
01:04:38this is the trend. And you absolutely do live in a cloistered existence. And if you'd like,
01:04:46we can go on a tour of Britain. Sure. I'd be very happy to come on a tour of Britain.
01:04:50And you'll see for yourself. You come see my country that I live in all the time,
01:04:54and you haven't been to a few years ago. Yes, I've been there literally a hundred times.
01:04:58But when was the last time? Literally a few years ago.
01:05:00You know why this exercises me? Because you have really shaped
01:05:05opinion about the UK. And so many Americans I come across, and I have conversations with,
01:05:10and I just had one the other day, along the order of, oh, London's such a dangerous place.
01:05:15How can you know? There are sort of grooming gangs everywhere. There's violence everywhere.
01:05:19This is a picture that people get from things that you post, or that are posted on X.
01:05:24And for example, you're posting for, what was it? 48 hours of Citizen Vigilante.
01:05:30That film which, you know, paints a dystopian. I've watched it.
01:05:34Yes. It was not fun. I watched it yesterday. It's not a very good movie.
01:05:37But it also paints a dystopian picture of Europe. And it glorifies vigilante violence.
01:05:42It glorifies the murdering of a Muslim immigrant family. I honestly think that it is irresponsible
01:05:48for you to put that up on X. I think that it's a movie, and it's worth watching.
01:05:53You're clearly suggesting Europe is a dystopian place, and you…
01:05:59Yes. I mean, why aren't you doing more to fight censorship in Europe? Why aren't you?
01:06:08I… You seem to be doing nothing to fight censorship in Europe. That's not true. That's not true. I think
01:06:12that there are…
01:06:13They put people in prison in the UK for social media posts. Do you think that's appropriate?
01:06:18No. And we've written editorials against it.
01:06:20Okay, great. That's the sort of thing that I think is bad.
01:06:23And I think if you… And I agree with you, but I don't think you have to glorify vigilante violence
01:06:27and kind of, you know, post the things that you are doing and paint an entirely inaccurate picture
01:06:34of Europe that you do. I don't think it is.
01:06:36We should do a tour of the UK. Yes, and one of Brussels too.
01:06:40Because the UK has actually been very good at integrating immigrants. The UK is very effective at
01:06:47doing that. There are problems. I'm the first to admit that there are problems.
01:06:50Yes, there are major problems. There are problems. But it is not… It really is not
01:06:54what you are describing to or suggesting to your 240 million followers.
01:06:59I think it is. And I think there's a problem.
01:07:01No, I think I'm… I think I'm spot on.
01:07:04Well, we'll have to… And that's why you have freedom of speech.
01:07:07Or at least… Well, freedom of speech allows people to say things that are wrong.
01:07:10But your point is not that you're not just saying, I have every right to say what I want.
01:07:13You're saying, you know, I am right about Europe and I really don't think you are.
01:07:17Well, I think I am.
01:07:19I think you will find that most people in Europe, or many people in Europe,
01:07:23don't think you're right about it. But let's… Let's come to that.
01:07:24Because the media keeps ignoring what's… Ignoring reality.
01:07:28I don't think that's true either. I really…
01:07:30And they're programmed by the TV and conventional media.
01:07:33But… And why are you… This is, I guess, even to me, sort of the bigger picture question.
01:07:38Why do you focus on this? Why are you interested in it? Because on the one hand,
01:07:43we started this conversation and you described to me this extraordinary, transformative,
01:07:50amazing… So, yeah, civilizational changing stuff that's happening in the next 10 years.
01:07:55Yes.
01:07:55And yet, you're also, you know, an ongoing participant in the worst kind of tribalism,
01:08:03you know, cesspit of social media. Like, how does that fit? Are you… You know, on the one…
01:08:08They're two very different views of the world.
01:08:11Yeah, I don't think they're inconsistent.
01:08:14But why do you do the latter one? The tribalism? I mean, people say that you're a racist.
01:08:19People say that you're… You know, there's all kinds of things said about you, which
01:08:23I'm sure you would disagree with. But I just don't understand. What is the motivation for doing that?
01:08:29My partner is… She's half Indian and I have four children with her. You know,
01:08:40one of them was named after a famous Indian physicist. So, I would say I'm not racist. And also,
01:08:48the… You know, if you look at the people that are employed at my companies, you know, we have
01:08:55senior executives of all races. There's… There's… I don't think there's any racism there.
01:09:00Are you anti-Muslim?
01:09:03I am… I'm against having… If people are coming to a country with
01:09:16antithetical views, I am against that. I'm against that. You know, I'm against…
01:09:28I'm against rape and murder. I'm against the imposition of
01:09:37rules and laws that are contrary to what we've come to accept in the West.
01:09:51And… And I think it's a crying shame that the sort of traditional media like you
01:09:58don't recognize this.
01:10:00First of all, I think that you hugely exaggerate the challenges that Europe faces. Secondly,
01:10:06in areas I completely agree with you. I think that, you know, the constraints on freedom of speech
01:10:11in the UK in certain areas are problematic. What worries me is that the people you are supporting
01:10:17are really quite vile people in some areas. Like some members of the AFD, Alice Weidel, whom I've met,
01:10:23is a perfectly thoughtful person. But in her party are some real neo-Nazis, are some really,
01:10:30really awful people. And your blanket support of this kind of party with 240 million followers means
01:10:37that you have a power in Europe that I think… Perhaps you don't realize the scale of impact you have,
01:10:44but you can…
01:10:46Well, good. I hope I am having a big impact.
01:10:48Why? Why should you? Why should you be able to shape European politics? You don't even live there.
01:10:53I think of it as sort of the West collectively.
01:10:56But do you see why this makes people think that this man who has all his power,
01:11:01he's the world's richest man, he thinks he has a right to influence our politics. It makes people…
01:11:06It's why, you know, we started this conversation saying superlatives. It's why people loathe you.
01:11:11I mean, some people do loathe you.
01:11:12Yes, some people do.
01:11:13But do you understand why? Do you think what you're doing is helpful for West
01:11:17and democracy?
01:11:18Maybe some people do loathe me. And that's probably true. I don't care.
01:11:25But the fact that, as you pointed out, a quarter billion people follow me is that I think a lot
01:11:31more people actually like me than don't. And I think a lot more people hate you and the media
01:11:38more than you realize. Do you realize the media is despised? Do you realize that the view of journalists
01:11:46journalists is like… It's like a favorable view of journalists is like 15 percent?
01:11:53I do know that. In the United States…
01:11:55Which means that…
01:11:55So the shoe is on the other foot. They hate you.
01:11:59They hate you. They hate you far more than they hate me.
01:12:03I think there is certainly a loss of trust in journalism. I think in part,
01:12:07there have been mistakes by journalists and journalism. I totally acknowledge that. But I
01:12:12also think that the kind of polarized environment, particularly on social media, fostered by the
01:12:19kinds of things you are pushing on X, actually helps this, makes it worse.
01:12:23I don't think so.
01:12:27I think you're the problem, the media. And speaking of loathing, you're loathe far more than I am.
01:12:35And you don't seem to even realize that.
01:12:37I think very few people know who I am relative to you. So I don't think I play in the
01:12:40same game.
01:12:40The media collectively. So, I mean, you're hated. Do you even know that? You probably don't.
01:12:51I like to think that I'm aware of my own personal shortcomings and The Economist shortcomings and
01:12:56our worldview shortcomings. But what we stand for, as you know, is liberal values, traditional,
01:13:04classical liberal values, where we worry about concentrations of power,
01:13:09and we believe in the individual and the dignity of the individual, and individual freedom.
01:13:14I agree with that.
01:13:15And I firmly believe that. And I have long thought that you were a classical liberal.
01:13:19But when I read what you post...
01:13:20That's what a classical liberal is.
01:13:21Classical liberal, J.S. Mill, limited government, individual freedom.
01:13:26Yeah, I agree with that.
01:13:27But when I read what you post on your feed, I sometimes wonder whether you really do believe in that.
01:13:34I literally said, look, I believe in safe cities, secure borders, and sensible spending
01:13:42with respect to government. That doesn't make me right-wing at all, in the least.
01:13:51Does the U.S. or do European countries score better on those?
01:13:55The U.S. is better.
01:13:56No. Safe cities, much more dangerous in the U.S. than the UK. Sensible spending, bigger deficit here,
01:14:04out of control, you failed to reduce it. Secure borders now under the Trump administration,
01:14:09I agree with you, before not. But on two out of three, unequivocally, Europe is in a better place.
01:14:14Yet you seem to paint the picture of Europe being a hellhole.
01:14:18I don't think Europe's a hellhole.
01:14:21Okay, we can agree on something.
01:14:22When did I ever say that?
01:14:24Well, the picture you paint of Europe on X is a hellhole.
01:14:26No, you're just making up things.
01:14:27No, I'm not.
01:14:28You're just literally making it up.
01:14:29You say civil war in Britain is inevitable, and then you basically proselytize for this
01:14:35citizen vigilante film, which really does paint Europe as a hellhole. It just starts with,
01:14:40you know, ominous music, and it says Europe.
01:14:42Well, there are, there was out of control rape and murder.
01:14:48It's more dangerous in this country than it is in Europe.
01:14:52Where there is danger in this country is because we failed to incarcerate repeat violent offenders.
01:15:02And that's, you know, the classic sort of sorrows DA or judges that fail to incarcerate repeat
01:15:09violent offenders. And if somebody gets arrested 50 times, literally, for violent crimes,
01:15:18and eventually they're going to kill somebody. So you either incarcerate them or people will die.
01:15:25I think the prevalence of guns has quite a lot to do with it too. I mean, this is a
01:15:29much more dangerous
01:15:30country. Murder rates are much higher in large part because there's so much, there are so many guns.
01:15:35Well, let me give you an interesting number. There are more people that die in Europe from heat deaths
01:15:39than people that die from gun deaths in America. Why aren't you writing an article about air conditioning?
01:15:47Well, we've done several on air conditioning. And we had on our cover last week, um, a whole,
01:15:51a whole long piece about, you know, why. Pro air conditioning?
01:15:55Yeah. We're very pro air conditioning. Okay, good. Well, good.
01:15:57Very pro air conditioning. You should read us. Absolutely.
01:16:00Credit where it's due. I think you have a, a view of The Economist that is not entirely accurate.
01:16:05So I will, you come look at England, start reading The Economist, and I will, um, you know,
01:16:13stand corrected on my criticism of you in this area.
01:16:18There, there are, there are many parts of Britain, um, and Europe which are not safe. You, you can't
01:16:29just walk around. But there are far more in this country. Far more. No, I don't think so.
01:16:34All right, let's go and get my fact checkers to check that. Yeah, I don't, I don't think that's true.
01:16:40Um, let's move on from this because I, I, I think I've got a sense of why you're doing what
01:16:44you're
01:16:44doing. The point is not that, that, that, the question is not, is America perfect? The question
01:16:49is, uh, does Europe have a serious and growing problem? Absolutely it has a serious and growing
01:16:53problem. That's where we started this. Europe has a serious and growing problem. I'm, I'm, I'm not going
01:16:58to, uh, say that the United States has no problems. Of course it does. Um, but, uh, you know, we,
01:17:06we should all
01:17:06try to, to address these issues. We can agree on that. We should all try to address the problems.
01:17:11My point was simply that I think you exaggerate the scale of Europe's problem. I think you,
01:17:15people are asleep at the switch and do not realize the magnitude of the issue.
01:17:20I also think that your interventions, however well-intentioned they may be, risk making Europe's
01:17:27problem a lot worse. How? Because you are putting your support behind people who are proto-authoritarians,
01:17:34who are not trying simply to, you know, make sure there is better integration of Muslims or to,
01:17:39to secure the borders, but who have very clear fascist tendencies and you will cause huge divisions
01:17:46within Europe. I think what you're saying is total fiction. Um, and really, uh, I, I'm simply saying
01:17:53that there needs to be, there needs to, that Europe has to have secure borders. Um, and should not let
01:17:59in vast numbers of people who, with views that are antithetical to, uh, the accepted views in,
01:18:05in Europe and, and where there will, where there will not be some level of, uh, safe cultural
01:18:11integration. This is simply common sense. If all you are saying is Europe should have secure borders,
01:18:15I completely agree with you. Then, then I have misunderstood what your interventions have
01:18:21been on social media. Cause that is not what the view I have, not what I would conclude having seen
01:18:27what the people you are supporting and the things you're doing. But if that's your goal,
01:18:30I share your goal that Europe should have secure borders. I think that's perfectly agreeable.
01:18:35That gets me to a question. And let me, let me explain what, what the fundamental forcing function
01:18:39here is, uh, for why the borders are not secure, which is, uh, the big, when you have a welfare
01:18:47state
01:18:48that provides substantial benefits, uh, to anyone who comes there, um, you create a very powerful
01:18:55economic forcing function for anyone who is below that standard of living to come to Europe. Um, it is,
01:19:03it is a, an obvious powerful driving force. Um, and, um, people will come there if, if their standard
01:19:12of living is, uh, from what they get in Europe is above where they are elsewhere in the world.
01:19:18It's very basic. I completely agree with that. Yes. I don't, I don't disagree. It's a very basic
01:19:22incentive structure. Um, economic conditions, economic influences determine a lot of
01:19:29migration. I think asylum is a separate issue, but I think, I think you're absolutely right. There are,
01:19:35there are, um, pressures for migration. However, there are other things that you haven't focused
01:19:39on, which is migration brings a lot of benefits and it also particularly does so in a continent
01:19:43like Europe, which is a rapidly aging continent. So we can agree that completely uncontrolled borders
01:19:49are a bad idea, but I am, I think Europe benefits from having immigration, controlled immigration.
01:19:57It brings, I like, I'm in favor of immigration. Obviously I'd be hypocritical if I wasn't since
01:20:02I'm an immigrant to the United States. Um, I'm in favor of immigration. If the person immigrating,
01:20:07um, is going to be a productive member of society. Um, if they're going to be honest and if they're
01:20:13not
01:20:13going to mistreat people in that country, they're going to. I can agree on all of those. Yes. But I
01:20:20think
01:20:20Europe does better on that than you give it credit for. That's I think where we disagree,
01:20:23but let's move on. Tell me what do you think people get most wrong about you?
01:20:29Well, I mean, you get, you just got a whole bunch of things wrong about me.
01:20:33Pretty much everything in the last, just rewind the last 20 minutes, still wrong.
01:20:38So I got, we got, I got wrong.
01:20:42Let's not be repetitive here.
01:20:43Okay. So, so that political side of you people get most wrong.
01:20:47Yeah. My political views are very, are centrist. They're not, uh, far right. And, and, and frankly,
01:20:55calling a far right, I think is an insult, uh, to, to history and insult to many peoples. And it
01:21:03is,
01:21:04uh, an outrageous falsehood. Um, it's, it's completely absurd. I, I literally have stated my
01:21:11position, which is that, and I've been very clear about this, which is that there need to be secure
01:21:15borders that, um, if there's, if there's an influx of immigrants, then they, they, they need to be
01:21:21people who will agree that the, with, with, with Western ideals, with Western values. And if they
01:21:27don't, and if, and if there's a long-term, uh, growth of people who do not, or in some cases
01:21:35are
01:21:35adamantly opposed to Western values, you are setting yourself up for civil war. This is obvious.
01:21:42A child can see this. So, so that, but this is, this is not a right wing view. I'm simply
01:21:46stating
01:21:47reality. Well, I think we can both agree that evidence will be able to decide which of us is
01:21:53more or less right. And we will find evidence for both of our views in different parts of Europe.
01:21:57The question is what the overall. I'm very good at predicting the future. I'm not perfect,
01:22:01but I'm very good at predicting the future. Uh, my batting average is, is very high for a human.
01:22:06Um, but this, this does have somewhat of a Cassandra effect where, where people don't
01:22:13believe that what I'm saying is likely to be true. Um, because
01:22:20you know, I, I, I can see into the future with a higher bat, not perfectly, but with a higher
01:22:26probability of success than most people. So, and including things that people believe to
01:22:31be in some cases counterintuitive. Um, and, uh, again, I'm not saying I'm always right. I certainly
01:22:38am not, but, but my batting average is very good. Um, but, but this, this, this does have,
01:22:46like I said, a Cassandra effect where people don't realize that what I'm saying will come to pass.
01:22:51Um, maybe not exactly in the timing that I thought, but it will come to pass. Um,
01:23:00and, uh, yeah, the history will write the verdict. But I think you will see that
01:23:11very little of what I've said, um, is inaccurate. Um, and, and a super majority of what I've said
01:23:22is very accurate and will come to pass unless there are, there's some change in direction.
01:23:27Do you have higher confidence level in your expectations of the future for AI,
01:23:33the first part of our conversation or the latter part, the political part? Um, the,
01:23:42I mean, AI is, there's no super intelligence. It's called the singularity, like a black hole,
01:23:48because you don't know what's going to happen after that. It's, and it sort of sucks in everything.
01:23:54So I think really, in, in terms of the, the really big macro effects here,
01:24:04AI and robots will really dominate everything.
01:24:09So on a, on a, on a timescale that is less than 10 years, which probably renders this other stuff
01:24:16that we've been talking about less important and less relevant. The, the AI, AI robotics revolution
01:24:24will happen sooner. It will, it will, it'll happen sooner than civil war in, in, in Britain. I would
01:24:35say civil war in Britain is probably 20 years away. Um, and the AI robot singularity is 10 years away.
01:24:45Well, hopefully these benign, all powerful AI's will prevent such outcomes.
01:24:51They probably will. Elon, I don't agree with everything you say,
01:24:54but it's always absolutely fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.
01:24:58No, you're welcome. I'm not boring. You're definitely not boring.
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