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00:00is Matt Perino, Bills beat reporter for Syracuse.com and host of the very popular Shout podcast.
00:07Matt, good afternoon. How you been?
00:09I am great. Thanks for having me on. How are you?
00:12I'm great, and you're welcome. Thank you for making the time.
00:16Before we get into the Bills, how's the little league season treating you?
00:20Is this the big year for you like it is for sale, or was that last year?
00:24Like, where are you at on the timeline?
00:26I'm next year, so he's one year ahead of me, and we'll go to Cooperstown next year.
00:32We already started the fundraising, let's call it that, and got to get the funds going.
00:41Yeah, all right, good times.
00:42Well, busy time now then with that probably wrapping up or close to wrapping up,
00:47I hope for your sake anyway, but of course, Bills camp here in a couple of days in.
00:53Can we start on – oh, wait, sorry, go ahead.
00:59No, nothing.
00:59Oh, sorry, I thought you said something, and I thought I interrupted. I apologize.
01:04So you saw the tweet mentioning you coming on the show.
01:07So what's your read on where the fan base is right now?
01:13Like I said to Sal an hour ago, you probably get a lot of people coming up to you and
01:18asking you, like, you know,
01:19and talking Bills with you, just like we all do.
01:23But I realize today I don't have a great sense of, like, where the excitement level is for this team.
01:29I mean, they're installed, again, according to Vegas, as the AFC favorite for the Super Bowl.
01:36But I'm not sure the fan base is lined up behind that entirely.
01:41Like, where are you at on that?
01:43You know, I think it's a great question.
01:45It's a great topic because I don't think I've gotten more questions.
01:51Like, you know how a lot of times people come up to you and they'll ask you about the Bills,
01:55but they'll be really eager to give you their own take after you answer.
01:59That is the part that I feel like I'm not getting as much.
02:03It is kind of like an ask and wait and listen,
02:07and they want to be directed toward some, like, kind of positive feelings about –
02:14because I think this is a great unknown, right?
02:16Like, I could sit here and tell you all my thoughts about what has been done, right?
02:21Like, the moves that have been made, the people that have been installed,
02:24all the decision-makers that are here.
02:26But I can't tell you necessarily what it's going to look like, even on offense,
02:31because the guy calling the plays didn't have to manage the entire operation
02:36over the last two and a half years.
02:38So I think there is this great unknown about, all right,
02:42everybody loves Jim Leonard universally.
02:45Like, nationally, football people, everybody I've talked to from the Combine
02:50to the owners' meetings, every NFL calendar point I've spent talking to people
02:55about how the Bills are changing.
02:58And people love Jim Leonard, but do the players that exist on this roster right now
03:04that are holdovers, are those guys going to work in Jim Leonard's scheme?
03:07On offense, are the Bills going to be more aggressive?
03:10Will that be to their detriment?
03:12Will that be opening up the passing game more?
03:15I don't think it will be.
03:16I think Joe Brady believes in the tenets that have been established here, right?
03:20A great running game helps Josh Allen mitigate the chaos at times
03:27that has really followed him throughout his career, right?
03:30We even saw it as recently as the playoff game in Denver last year
03:33when he had four interceptions.
03:35I think Joe Brady is going to be able to take everything he's learned
03:40over the last two and a half years, the mentorship of Aaron Cromer,
03:43whatever impact Sean McDermott had on him,
03:46whether it was somebody that took a little bit of the hectic nature,
03:51potentially, of the offense that existed before he got here out,
03:54I think he's going to manage a lot of that really well.
03:57But until he does it, there's just a lot of great unknowns.
04:00I'll tell you what I'm most sure about.
04:03I'm most sure that a healthy DJ Moore is going to be just a wonderful medicine
04:11for this offense.
04:13When things are hard, I think he's going to help make them easy.
04:16They're going to be able to run the ball still.
04:18If you install Alec Anderson at left guard or you install Austin Corbett at left guard,
04:24although I think he's had a really tough training camp so far,
04:27the pads aren't on yet, so let's not overreact,
04:30I think they're still going to be able to run the ball with efficiency
04:34at a large volume.
04:36However, go back to the Pittsburgh game last year,
04:38I think they can still do that.
04:40But I think that DJ Moore, to me, is even the biggest optimist,
04:48maybe aren't necessarily factoring in how important he's going to be
04:52to the success of this overall passing game.
04:54Matt Perino from Syracuse.com on the Western Hotline with us here on WGR.
05:00It sounds like fans are almost coming to you and saying,
05:03tell me something good.
05:06Tell me how to – help me love the Bills.
05:10It's kind of what it sounds like a little bit there, which I get.
05:15It has been the same ceiling subtly different ways,
05:20but, you know, the end result has been the same, bitter disappointment.
05:24So, you know, I can understand some degree of, I don't know,
05:29burnout, malaise, whatever.
05:32But with all the new, it would make sense that fans are sort of curious,
05:35like, what do you really think of this guy and that guy?
05:38You mentioned Leonard there, and that's such a big one.
05:41I mean, Brady, I think – you know, I trust that the offense,
05:45it's largely intact.
05:46You mentioned a new left guard, you've added D.J. Moore.
05:49The rest of it is intact, and that was good enough to still be
05:53one of the best offenses in the league.
05:55So I don't think there's any reason to be really worried about that side of the ball
06:00with Brady still in charge of that.
06:02How he'll do overall as the head coach remains to be seen.
06:06Leonard, I agree.
06:07Like, I was happy to hear his name involved in the interview process
06:11and was rooting for him to get the job, but the peace with the personnel is such a big deal.
06:19I mean, even – when you start hearing about – I don't know how you feel about this,
06:23but I get, like, alarms go off when I hear, oh, Landon Jackson is putting on 25 pounds.
06:29Dwayne Carter's putting on weight.
06:31Deion Walker's dropping weight.
06:32Like, what are we doing?
06:34Like, these guys were drafted for a different system, and you're trying to reshape them.
06:40And I know that doesn't mean that can't work, but that always worries me
06:45when you're trying to fit guys here into, like, a new position, basically.
06:51No, I understand that.
06:52I think the one thing that would be settling in that pursuit,
06:57if I'm looking at it from a fan's perspective, is you have Jim Leonard
07:01that's going to have a bunch of different options to try to fit in what he needs, right?
07:06Like, at the end of the day, most defensive lines, even if you go super deep,
07:10like, you're going to really rely on a rotation of, like, seven or eight guys
07:14that you can lean on.
07:15And you think about Bradley Chubb and Rousseau and Oliver,
07:18who I think of all the players on defense,
07:22I think Oliver may be getting the special attention of a new defensive coordinator.
07:29I mean, what's all the stuff that we've heard from Jim this offseason?
07:32It's like finding a way to make it easier on Ed, who, if you do go back and watch the
07:37games,
07:38like, he's always getting double-teamed,
07:41because opposing offenses haven't had to worry much about the Bills on the edge
07:46over the last couple of years consistently.
07:48I think Greg Rousseau is really good, but he's not an elite-level player.
07:51They had an elite-level, borderline elite-level player for eight games
07:55with Von Miller before the injury.
07:56And other than that, it has been mostly teams game planning
08:01to just take Ed Oliver out of the game, because there's nobody else that can wreck it.
08:05So now if you have a new philosophy and the unknown of what the scheme is really going to look
08:12like,
08:12you could prep with Denver, but there's a different personnel here.
08:16Maybe the creativity of Jim Leonard is finding a way to utilize guys in a different way
08:21that Sean McDermott just wasn't.
08:23And I think Ed Oliver is the guy that I'm looking at that when you go five down linemen,
08:28and so now you have more problems to solve with some of these other guys,
08:34and if Deion Walker can take a step, I think you can get excited about what Ed Oliver is going
08:39to be.
08:39But Landon Jackson and Dwayne Carter and, you know, the guy that I wrote about pretty heavily today
08:44and talked about on my show, Zane Durant, who is really popping early without the pads.
08:49We'll see if that continues when they put the pads on, which I think is supposed to be Monday.
08:54That's going to be important to watch.
08:56But it's just going to be like trial by fire for all of these younger guys.
08:59And, like, the best of the best will be the ones that are left standing
09:04that are going to back up some of the guys that we just talked about.
09:07Yeah, I really wonder about Carter here.
09:09It might be something where I'm reading too much into it because coaches don't want to ignore
09:14or fail to mention any one guy when they're talking about the depth chart.
09:18But when Leonard was talking earlier this morning, Matt, he mentioned, you know,
09:23nose tackle Walker, Carter, and Fadarian Mathis.
09:26And my antenna went up, and I just thought, like, Dwayne Carter, it's been a rough couple of years.
09:32I mean, injuries largely have just wrecked the first two years.
09:36And I feel like that's a guy, even though he's a third-round pick, that if Mathis shows to be
09:42capable,
09:42I wonder if Carter could be in some trouble.
09:46He definitely could be, especially if you bake in, if you're Leonard
09:52and you get a chance to see him for a few months here, you lead up to 53-man roster
09:56cut down,
09:57and then you say, okay, he's probably at the back of the line in terms of who we trust at
10:03that spot
10:04because he was kind of a tweener, right?
10:05He played a little nose, a little three-tech at Duke.
10:09Then maybe you start thinking about, okay, if that's the case,
10:12and you've got to, like, kind of project what year three is going to look like coming off of an
10:17Achilles.
10:18It's not an ACL.
10:19It's an Achilles for a heavier guy that's put on some size.
10:23I'm starting to get a little worried about that for sure.
10:26But he's got such a great attitude, and he's a locker room guy,
10:29that if he gets into the preseason games and he shows you that he can be a bit of that
10:34anchor
10:35and he can show you some pop with, you know, his ability to get into the backfield
10:40and disrupt opposing teams' running game, like, he was in the backfield today.
10:44Like, he had a would-be sack on the Kyle Allen interception to Joe Andreessen,
10:50that if he can do that over the course of these three preseason games,
10:54and he's going to get a ton of opportunities, and he's in a good place health-wise,
10:58and it's good for him, too, that he was 100% ready to go in team from the jump in
11:03training camp.
11:04If he stays healthy throughout and gets action in all three games, or at least two,
11:08you may or may not want him to have a ton of action in game three.
11:11You'd like to see what he does in the first two, and then you don't need to play him
11:15because you know what you have.
11:16I think they're rooting for this guy.
11:18I think they think that there's more to him than just what he provides on the field.
11:22I mean, he was, I think, a four-year captain at Duke.
11:25This is a guy that does a ton off the field in the community.
11:28So I think that they're going to give him every opportunity.
11:31But if Mathis is better after the next six or eight weeks, yeah,
11:35there might be a decision to be made.
11:36There might be a decision to make on both sides of the ball.
11:38There's a ton of buildup in that offensive line room, too.
11:42It's been a rough start for Austin Corbett.
11:44Again, I am not going to put any stock in that because the pads haven't come on yet.
11:48So I'm not even really writing about that intently in my daily recaps.
11:53But eventually that's going to be a topic point because you have Van Prang Granger,
11:56who's behind Cushenberry very likely, and they're starting to work him at guard a little bit.
12:01They had Chase Lunt working in at guard.
12:04They drafted him as a tackle.
12:06Grable has played guard before.
12:07So they have tons of guys that are competing for what's ultimately going to be not enough spots
12:13to keep all of them.
12:15And that's going to be something that, for Carter especially,
12:18is something I'm watching over the next six weeks.
12:20Matt Perino on the Bills Beat from Syracuse.com
12:23and also the very popular Shout podcast, our guest here on the West Her Hotline.
12:27It feels like most conversations I'm either taking part in or hearing or reading
12:34are talking about concerns is the linebacker.
12:40Bernard is being slow played.
12:42Dorian Williams, to some extent, also, that opens the door for Caleb Elamzor,
12:48and maybe that'll be a blessing because maybe he'll just hit the ground and just be flying.
12:53It seems like everyone is giving him very positive reviews.
12:56But do you share the concern that it feels like most observers have about the linebacking situation?
13:05It's kind of a double-edged sword because on one level, yeah,
13:08you'd love to have one more veteran guy because the two veterans,
13:13I'd consider Bernard and Williams veterans at this point.
13:16They played a lot of football.
13:18I don't trust them to be able to stay healthy.
13:20So that piece of it is definitely concerning.
13:23But I also think that they're onto something with Elamzor.
13:28Like, you don't hear all three levels, like players, coaches, and then the executives,
13:35like the Brandon Bean level, talk this way about rookies very often.
13:40And, like, you know, everything that we've seen, like jumping into the huddle
13:43and shooing Joe Brady out in one of his first practices during OTAs,
13:48coming out in the first two days here and just, you know,
13:52Jim Leonard saying he's taking advantage of the opportunity and they trust him.
13:55I mean, he's out there making plays.
13:57I was talking to Michael Hoyt after practice with Sal, actually,
14:01and one of the things that I asked him is, like,
14:03because he talked about one of the differences between a 3-4 and a 4-3 scheme,
14:07and you'll just see how you attack the opposing run games just look a little bit different.
14:11And one of the things is they want linebackers being able to kind of freely move
14:17between the waves to get down the line of scrimmage.
14:19And Caleb Elamzor had one of those plays today where he blew up Ty Johnson
14:24in the backfield, and I asked him about him.
14:26He's like, yeah, he's been making plays all camp long going back to the spring camp.
14:31And so guys are confident in him, which is a big piece,
14:35so that lessens my concern because I think if you end up with Caleb
14:40as one of your starting linebackers,
14:42and now you can maybe rely on Bernard maybe to start,
14:46and if he can't help you, then turn it over to Dorian Williams,
14:48you still have some veterans out there.
14:50Like Shaq Thompson played in a 3-4 scheme in Carolina.
14:53He'll come in here and be able to do it from the jump.
14:55We saw it last year playing in kind of a different scheme with Sean McDermott.
14:59So I think it's one of those things that there's a level of concern,
15:03but I also think the second and third level aren't to me as important,
15:10even if you're getting really solid play or above-average play or great play there,
15:14if your defensive line isn't what they're hoping this thing is going to be.
15:17It's going to start up front.
15:19They're going to have to affect quarterbacks to make the second
15:22and third level work anyway.
15:24And so my concern kind of defaults to the defensive line no matter what.
15:28Yeah.
15:29Speaking of getting pressure, what are your expectations for TJ Parker?
15:33I feel like a guy like Elam Zor, Kilgore to an extent, Igbenosin,
15:40this started right after the draft.
15:41Like Sale's recap of the draft was kind of the upside-down draft
15:46because maybe the meat of it, the guys that you might see make an impact quickly
15:50were late Friday into Saturday picks as opposed to their first pick,
15:56which was a second-rounder in TJ Parker.
15:58That said, there's a guy that was maybe top half of the first round
16:01after the 24 season, new scheme at Clemson in 25,
16:05and a lot of performances dropped off, including his.
16:09But I wonder if there's a sneaky, maybe good, potentially impactful player there.
16:15I'm not holding my breath only because, like, if we're being honest,
16:20this regime doesn't have a great track record there with this position.
16:24Like, in a lot of ways, you know, I think of, like, Boogie Basham
16:28and A.J. Epinesa and, to a lesser degree, Rousseau,
16:31who was, I thought, a little bit more impactful as a rookie,
16:36where they just haven't hit at that position.
16:39Landon Jackson last year was drafted to be a 4-3 end coming out of college.
16:44And so I'm trying to move to what the expectations should be with Jim Leonard,
16:50but the most part, the staff is in place that he's drafted a lot of these other guys.
16:55And TJ Parker is very similar to Epinesa and Boogie.
16:58So I'm trying to cap my expectations.
17:02Now, the one thing I'll say about Parker that I love is how much he comps to Bradley Chubb
17:08and getting him in the room they spent time together over the last six weeks during the break.
17:14And he's kind of taken him under his wing.
17:16And, you know, I didn't necessarily see a ton of it today,
17:18but I did see some of the other reporters saying that, you know,
17:21he was having some one-on-one wins.
17:23It's tough when you're watching practice to see all 11 on both sides of the ball every play.
17:28So it hasn't popped to me yet, but I will tell you what I will be watching.
17:32When the pads come on, which, again, I think is going to be Monday,
17:36one-on-ones against offensive linemen.
17:38Are we seeing the athletic profile, the second gear, the third gear, the drive that Brandon talked about?
17:44That's going to give me a little bit more optimism for what this could look like.
17:48And the great thing for him is where is he in the packing order?
17:51If Michael Hoyt is this ready to go at the beginning of training camp,
17:54he's, to me, the third cog behind Chubb and Rousseau.
18:00And then you can have any combination at the other spot.
18:02Mike Dannen, who's got a lot of veteran experience, playoff experience.
18:06You have Javon Solomon, who's kind of like that different flavor of speed rusher off the edge.
18:11So that puts T.J. Parker in a place where if it's not ready to go from the jump,
18:15there are a lot of other options that they can kind of tap into.
18:19And even, like, if things aren't going well for Landon inside, when they go to four down linemen,
18:26he can still rush as an end, which is where he was the best at, Arkansas, anyway.
18:30And they're still doing that.
18:31This is going to be a hybrid scheme.
18:32It's not going to be always, you know, that 3-4 look that, you know, kind of gives you those
18:38five linemen.
18:39So Parker's a great – that's a great question.
18:41And it's – honestly, if we're talking about the defense,
18:45he's probably somebody that I have the lowest expectations for.
18:48And it's not because of the player.
18:50It's just because of the track record.
18:52Well, it was Jim Leonard's day.
18:54He spoke, so we spent most of this – it's a whole new era, Matt.
18:58New head coach, new conversation where we don't talk about wide receivers
19:02until there's, like, two or three minutes left on the clock here.
19:06What are your early observations of D.J. Moore?
19:12I'm just impressed with – first of all, from the play – like, the on-field perspective,
19:19how fluid of a mover he is.
19:21Like, of course it's easy to say this because he is the best receiver that's been in the room
19:26since Stephon Diggs.
19:28But it's like that.
19:29Like, those kinds of players move differently.
19:32And early on in camp, one of the big things that we're watching is these individual drills
19:37where they're going through their breaks.
19:38They're repping the routes that they're going to run in practice.
19:42They're so really dialed into the details.
19:46And, like, when you watch Moore, it's different than everybody else.
19:50And that's including Khalil Shakir, who I think is about as crisp of a route runner as you'll find.
19:55There's just an athleticism and fluidity to his game that's just different.
19:59It looks different and it feels different.
20:00And that's something that I think available to a quarterback is next level.
20:05He's not necessarily looking to be a mentor for Skylar Bell or Keon Coleman.
20:11Like, it doesn't seem like he's not a really loud guy in the room.
20:16Like, Stephon Diggs was a leader.
20:17Like, guys followed him.
20:19And I don't think that's going to be what D.J. Moore is leaning into.
20:23And I don't necessarily think they need that.
20:25I think we've seen quite a bit of maturation from Keon Coleman.
20:30You know, Brandon even saying yesterday that he feels the light went on this offseason.
20:34That's something that maybe now he can just be trusted to be wide receiver three in that room
20:39and maybe be poised for a big season.
20:41I know a lot of fans groan and roll their eyes when I say that.
20:44I'm probably one of the more bullish beat reporters still on Keon Coleman.
20:48But I think part of that comes from, like, I haven't loved the discourse around him.
20:55This is a kid that, like, I've been critical of him,
20:58and I think he deserves criticism for the transgressions and, you know, being late to the meetings.
21:03But I also think he's a 21, 22, now 23-year-old who still is going to be wearing a
21:09Bills jersey.
21:10And him figuring it out and doing the work to try to figure it out, which it appears he's done.
21:16I mean, he spent part of the summer with Stevie Johnson, and he looks better.
21:20He's moving better.
21:21I think fans should root for that.
21:23And as a journalist, I'm kind of rooting for that story a little bit.
21:27So I think D.J. Moore is going to have a positive impact, even if he's not the outspoken leader
21:32type,
21:32because of what his presence does for everybody else in that room.
21:36All right, Matt, you got anything like roadshows with your buddy Ryan Talbot coming up you want to promote?
21:43Now's your opportunity.
21:44Yes, actually.
21:45We're going to be at the Mafia Hub.
21:47How fitting, right?
21:48Here in Rochester on St. Paul Street, downtown Rochester, August 6th, 6 p.m.
21:55If you're coming out to camp, if you're in town in Rochester, if you're in Buffalo
21:59and you want to just make the drive and hang out for the night,
22:02that's going to be kind of like our camp recap show next Thursday, August 6th.
22:08We can't wait.
22:09Right.
22:10The camp will have come and gone just about by then, right?
22:13That's why you say camp recap.
22:15It's a quickie.
22:16It's right at the end.
22:17Yes, it's right at the end.
22:18All right, Matt.
22:19Enjoyed this as always.
22:20Thank you very much.
22:20Keep up the great work, and I hope you draw a big crowd out in Rochester next Thursday.
22:25Thanks, buddy.
22:25Take care.
22:26That is Matt Perino, Bills Beat Reporter for Syracuse.com.
22:29You also see him as part of the crew on News 4, Buffalo with Josh Reed and that whole crew.
22:37I know Sal's been a part of that at times.
22:39And, of course, the Shout Podcast, as I mentioned.
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