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For generations, a university degree was seen as the clearest pathway to opportunity. But lately, that assumption is being tested. AI is changing the nature of work, and students and parents are increasingly questioning the cost and value of a university degree. Are universities preparing graduates for the world and jobs they are about to enter? And are higher learning institutions moving quickly enough to keep pace with technological change? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Professor David FitzPatrick, Pro-Vice Chancellor of University of Nottingham, and Provost and CEO of University of Nottingham Malaysia.
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00:00Music
00:10Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:18the day.
00:18For generations, a university degree was seen as the clearest pathway to opportunity.
00:24But lately, that assumption is being tested.
00:27Artificial intelligence is changing the nature of work and students and parents are increasingly questioning the cost and value of
00:36a university degree.
00:38So, are universities preparing graduates for the world and the jobs that they are about to enter?
00:44Well, let's ask our guest today, Professor David Fitzpatrick, who is the Pro Vice-Chancellor of University of Nottingham.
00:50He's also the Provost and CEO of University of Nottingham, Malaysia.
00:55Yeah, Professor Fitzpatrick, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
00:59So, let's start with that premise that many young people, many Malaysians, have been raised to believe that getting a
01:06degree was the best pathway to getting a good job.
01:10I'm wondering, is that promise still, does that promise still hold in 2026?
01:17Well, thank you very much for having me on the show and I'm really pleased to talk about this because
01:23this is a, it's a particular topic of interest for Malaysian parents, but it's actually a global issue.
01:29And I think it's something I'm quite interested in personally.
01:34So, I think you're right, pathways forward have been built on education and acquiring a primary degree from a university
01:44was seen as the way to secure the best job and to have the best career.
01:48And that promise still is true.
01:51It still holds true.
01:53However, as is always the case, it's evolved.
01:57So, now employers are looking for somebody with the best possible qualification.
02:02But what are they also looking for?
02:05What are they expecting to see layered on top of that, that becomes the real differentiator for the student?
02:11So, you know, getting the best education you can is absolutely a first start.
02:18But on top of that, you need to think about how you can add additional competencies and capabilities that maybe
02:28aren't fully formally taught in a university.
02:31So, the challenge for universities is how do we prepare students so they have the fundamentals and are also able
02:40to look forward and be confident that they are going to be able to adapt and be future ready, not
02:45just today ready.
02:47Okay.
02:47So, let's talk a little bit about that.
02:49So, many people say that, you know, we often hear we talk about graduate unemployment and underemployment.
02:58So, when you look at those issues from a university perspective, what is your assessment of that problem?
03:06How significant is that issue today?
03:09I think the unemployment aspect is one that you can quantify quite rigidly.
03:15I mean, that's well defined.
03:18Underemployment is a much more nebulous term.
03:22So, as an excited, recent graduate, you want to get the best possible job in an industry you're interested in
03:28or a sector you want to work in for the rest of your career, you feel.
03:32And your first job ends up being five out of ten.
03:36I'm not getting the chance to show everything I've learned and everything I can do.
03:39So, in my definition, that's underemployment.
03:42The attributes of the individual are not being able to shine.
03:46And that's a difficult challenge.
03:48You know, you want to get a job and getting a job and holding that job for a period of
03:52time as your first role is really important.
03:56But you may find it's not the perfect fit.
03:59So, again, I think it comes back to how well are you able to demonstrate both what you have now,
04:06how you're keen to grow and develop, and how will you be able to adapt and evolve personally as well
04:14as within the work environment.
04:16When you mentioned a little earlier in your answer about how what employers are looking for, they want the best
04:22qualification, but they also want some differentiating skills, right?
04:26They want something that makes graduates stand out.
04:30You're talking to employers.
04:31What are you hearing about what employers are telling universities what they need from graduates today?
04:38Is there something that they're telling you that they need today that maybe they didn't need ten years ago?
04:46So, in reviewing our programs and as part of our standard model within the University of London in Malaysia, we
04:53have program advisory boards which draw on industry experts.
04:59Some of them might be alumni.
05:00Some of them are just contacts we've built up over the years.
05:03And so they have a perspective that's relevant for that program area, whether it's engineering or the humanities or STEM
05:10subjects more broadly.
05:11They will be interested in graduates from that program area.
05:15So, their advice is really what helps us stay up to speed with the wider engagement that's needed.
05:23And from those conversations and those inputs, we know that employers are very comfortable around developing any additional technical competency.
05:34So, they understand graduates will have their basic fundamentals and be able to carry those out at a really high
05:41level.
05:41They can build on that quite easily.
05:44The gaps that they are more concerned about seeing are things like problem solving, critical thinking, interpersonal communication skills,
05:56and an ability to adapt and respond in challenging situations, as four examples.
06:05And, you know, for you and I who have been working for a while, we might think that's just normal
06:10things.
06:11But these are gaps that they want to see filled.
06:14And how do graduates get these soft skills, as some employers talk about that?
06:22Problem solving, critical thinking, how does a university education allow for a graduate to build those skills?
06:31So, the curriculum can help, for sure.
06:34How we structure our programs, how we deliver the programs to the students,
06:37what we challenge them with in the course of their studies, can help develop the problem solving or the critical
06:43thinking?
06:45You know, I know we want to talk about AI and the impact of AI.
06:49And one common perception is, well, AI just solves all the problems.
06:53You put in a prompt and you get the answer.
06:57How do you know it's the right answer?
06:59How do you assess how effective the prompt was at the start?
07:03What are the data sources that are being used and how are you interrogating those to make sure that they're
07:07actually valid?
07:09Those attributes are things that we need to try and develop within the students.
07:13And we can do a certain amount of that within the curriculum.
07:16Some of them has to come from their extracurricular activities.
07:19You know, can they get work experience at different times in the year?
07:24Do they take on leadership roles in student bodies or sports activities
07:29and show that they have this interest in helping pull people together
07:33and move people along in a particular direction?
07:36And can they show attributes where they've maybe made a particular strategic decision
07:42or justifying that as their next steps?
07:45All of those things, the curricular and the extracurricular, then all come together.
07:49Okay.
07:50Let's move into AI since you've brought it up.
07:53Let's talk a little bit about that because I really do think that, you know,
07:58it's changing the nature of learning, of teaching, of assessments.
08:02So let's take a look at how AI is being, AI in universities from the perspective of students first.
08:11What does that mean for graduates who are in university currently thinking about entering the workforce,
08:16having to deal with the technological disruption in whatever chosen industry they want to,
08:24how do they prioritize skills in an AI-driven economy that they themselves don't know what skills are needed?
08:33How do you prepare a graduate for that?
08:37So I think a big theme, if you like, around AI, since it burst into our consciousness, really,
08:49has been around the jobs it's going to replace and the loss of opportunity that's going to exist.
08:56I think that's true.
08:58There will be roles that are impacted.
09:00But if we step back a little bit from that and we say, well, actually, is that the right question
09:05to be asking?
09:05Is the question not much more about AI will exist, it will carry out and be excellent at certain things.
09:14Where are the gaps?
09:16And as a recent graduate moving into my first job, where I'll be expected to use AI and develop as
09:26best I can with it,
09:27what are the experiences and the capabilities that I'm not going to learn anymore compared to people who came in
09:35previous roles?
09:36So there's a gap in how people are developing because of AI.
09:39You leave university as a fresh graduate.
09:43In your first job, the types of experiences and the types of challenges you're going to face are going to
09:49be different.
09:50So you need to think about how will future graduates gain experience in the right areas?
09:56How will they be able to develop and use AI in the most effective way?
10:05So I think critical thinking, problem solving, all these aspects around how you use AI as a tool and are
10:15in full control of it,
10:16rather than just simply accepting answers that come from AI.
10:20They're the challenges that people have to address.
10:23Sorry, if I may just jump in very quickly.
10:25Having said that, then how have universities responded?
10:30In your experience, when students have access to powerful AI tools, all this information at their fingertips,
10:38how do you adjust your curriculum to promote critical thinking?
10:44How do you adjust your teaching to adapt to these tools?
10:48And how do you adjust your assessment?
10:51Because you could have essays, assignments written by powerful AI.
10:56Talk to me about the university perspective.
10:59Yeah.
11:01So it's not that many years ago when AI became commonly available.
11:05And the first response from a lot of universities globally was,
11:09how do we stop students using AI?
11:11Ah, it was the fear reaction, wasn't it?
11:13The fear reaction.
11:14And, you know, they're all going to do it and they'll all suddenly get A's
11:18and we won't be able to actually differentiate between anybody.
11:20So, fortunately, that's moved on.
11:23You know, AI exists.
11:26And so the challenge now in both program delivery and program assessment
11:30is how to first get students to recognize how best to use AI in their particular area.
11:37And then in the assessment, we recognize that in some particular assignments or pieces of work,
11:45we might require students to use AI, but they have to demonstrate fully how they use it.
11:50How are they driving it as a tool as opposed to just taking an answer out and accepting the output?
11:58So, again, it comes back to forming that critical thinking and that ability to interrogate and drive AI as a
12:07useful tool
12:08rather than just simply being a slave to it.
12:12And how has your experience been with adapting to AI, both faculty and students?
12:21I think, you know, as in any profession, you'll have first movers and then the main body people who will
12:29follow along
12:29and then other people who can't quite get their head around it and how it's going to work.
12:33And that's always a smaller group.
12:34So it'll be the same in any higher education institution.
12:38You'll have people who embrace AI fully and want to structure their modules around it
12:43and they've got a really good way of making sure it's captured and assessed
12:46and others who are using it and starting to use it more incrementally
12:49and will build up that competency.
12:52So I think universities are globally using AI more.
12:56In fact, the Digital Education Council produced a report just this month
13:02where they showed that 80% of academics globally were saying they used AI in some form in their education.
13:13Conversely, 30% of students said that their institutions were at the leading edge of AI use.
13:21So there's a gap there.
13:23Yeah, what explains that gap?
13:25Well, I think it explains part of it is the fact that the way we develop curricula
13:31and the way we develop teaching approaches is going to be slower than the pace at which AI will develop.
13:36I mean, I think that's, you know, and so it's the same in any industry sector.
13:41AI is pushing ahead and people are trying to catch up.
13:44There's a little bit of catch up going on in education as well.
13:46There is that time lag.
13:47But is that scary for universities?
13:49When you look at how quickly the technological pace will evolve
13:54and you think about how maybe organizations take longer to adopt and to adapt,
14:01how will you make sure that that momentum keeps going in your organization?
14:08Yeah, I think a big part of it is that we first recognize the problem
14:14and we say, you know, we need to change, we need to adapt, we need to evolve.
14:18We can't just stay as we are.
14:20And then it's a matter of trying to encourage people to take some bold steps.
14:25And with every big change you make, there's always some risk.
14:29So do we make sure that the risks are minimized,
14:33the impact on students and on the organization are going to be minimal
14:38and effectively we want a positive response for everybody.
14:42That's the output we want to achieve.
14:44And I think, you know, academics are curious by nature.
14:48That's why they're academics.
14:49And they want the best for their students.
14:52So they will want to develop and then improve these things.
14:56I might give one quick example.
15:00One of the staff in UNM challenged a group of final year students
15:06to think about AI and education and the impact it had on them
15:10as their major assignment within their module.
15:13And this group of students have produced what they call an AI manifesto for education.
15:23And it's really interesting.
15:26I mean, they recognize AI is there,
15:29but their focus is very much on how do we ensure that the human remains central
15:34to the use and evolution of AI.
15:38And they're from an international communication studies program,
15:42not a technical program.
15:43So, you know, their perspective is human first.
15:47How do we ensure that we use it in a way that's best for everybody?
15:53So, do you, from your perspective, David,
15:56does AI make universities more important or less important?
16:01How do we think about if information is free through AI,
16:05what then becomes the purpose of a university education?
16:11I think it goes back a little bit to what I said earlier in that information is free.
16:17We can put a prompt in and we can get so much back so quickly.
16:24But is it correct?
16:26If you're using all of the available information across the globe to generate some output,
16:32you know, if we start trawling social media and taking people's expert opinion across social media,
16:38some of that may be correct, some of that may be totally incorrect.
16:41It'll certainly be divergent.
16:44How do you critically analyze it?
16:45So, how do you, it comes back to how do you control the questions you're asking in the right way
16:50so that you're targeting a particular area in a structured manner?
16:54And then how do you critically assess and judge what the output is?
16:59How do you refine that output to make sure you understand it and can stand over it?
17:03If, since we're on the topic of kind of the purpose of the university,
17:08talk to me about the philosophical thinking behind a university education.
17:12What is the raison d'etre of a university?
17:15Should universities be thinking about producing employable graduates,
17:19what the employers say they want from graduates?
17:22Or are you thinking about educating global citizens,
17:28educating citizens for a future that is quite uncertain?
17:33How do we think about that, what a role of university is?
17:36Yeah, and I think that role always evolves.
17:41There are research-intensive universities like the University of Nottingham,
17:45the University of Nottingham, Malaysia.
17:46So we would see part of our raison d'etre to be around the generation of knowledge
17:53and the acquisition and capture of new things across all our domains.
18:00And then we also look at how we transfer that knowledge and transfer that knowledge into, you know,
18:07the history for future development and future growth, but also transfer it into our structured programs
18:13and our learning and what we tell students.
18:16And so I think knowledge creation, knowledge exchange is more important in some universities than in others.
18:25Ultimately, our role is to produce graduates who have a positive impact on society.
18:32And some of that can be done at a more local level.
18:36The focus may be on very immediate needs locally in different institutions.
18:41Our approach as a global university is the global citizen.
18:45And to see how you can fit and find your place in the world, you know, it can be anywhere.
18:51And we believe that our graduates can move and be mobile across the world.
18:56So I think, you know, the idea of a university is also, for me, very much about the formation of
19:05the individual.
19:06And in my previous university in Dublin, Cardinal John Henry Newman wrote the idea of a university in the 1800s.
19:15And in it, he captures the fact that it's formation of the individual.
19:20So going back to almost where I started, we can provide a certain amount as curriculum, as programs, as education.
19:28But around that, you need to wrap the development of the individual across all the facets, some of which will
19:34be of interest to an employer,
19:36some of which will be purely for your own self and personal self-worth, and others will benefit wider society
19:42also.
19:42I mean, it's those elements all coming together.
19:45Well, but also universities.
19:46I mean, running universities is not an easy task.
19:48Universities are competing globally too.
19:50I think their businesses, first and foremost, their student demographics are changing.
19:56International students now have a lot of options elsewhere.
20:00For a university like yours, like Nottingham University, Malaysia, what has been some of the biggest challenges?
20:07What do you think are the biggest challenges for institutions like Nottingham?
20:11And what do you think a university has to become to survive and be sustainable in the next 20 years?
20:20That's a big question.
20:22It is a big question, but what comes to mind when you think about how universities need to be competitive,
20:28but also sustainable in an age of trillion options?
20:35So I think, you know, from my experience and having worked in a number of different universities, both in Europe
20:41and here, in Asia and ASEAN,
20:44I think, you know, the evolution of the role of universities is definitely accelerating in many ways.
20:50And a key part of that is to look at how we get wider society to recognize that your first
21:00qualification is the first qualification.
21:03So actually, the role of university is going to extend and expand and continue to grow, where it's no longer
21:10about coming and doing a three-year or four-year bachelor's program.
21:14You may want to go to another institution or back to your home institution to do some top-up studies
21:21to keep developing your knowledge and awareness in key areas.
21:24So, you know, I've been in higher education for over 25 years, and since I first started in higher education,
21:32the term lifelong learning was popular.
21:36Lifelong learning has not been delivered yet, in my opinion, and I think that is the biggest single challenge.
21:42We need universities to have greater flexibility and adaptability in terms of what they deliver and how they deliver it.
21:49And we need government and industry to come in behind that and say, well, actually, yes, we're interested in that.
21:55It's not just about getting somebody their first degree. It's about how you continue to learn and how you continue
22:00to grow.
22:00Right. On that note, I think many young people who may be watching this feel enormous pressure to get that,
22:07to choose the right degree in the very beginning,
22:09because they think the one wrong decision of a degree will define their career.
22:14Maybe you have some advice for them. If you were advising a Malaysian student entering the workforce, entering the university
22:21today,
22:22what would you tell them to prioritize or to focus on in the next three, four years?
22:30I think, and this is drawing my own personal experience of like in terms of how I've gone through education
22:37at different times.
22:39I think the most important thing is that whatever you're studying and whatever you are engaging with, you need to
22:46have an interest in it.
22:47You need to be driven by a curiosity. So, you know, you might be good at mathematics, but actually you're
22:57much more interested in life sciences and biology.
23:01So do biology, keep interested in mathematics. When you've done your primary degree, why wouldn't you think about doing something
23:08that combines statistical modeling with biology?
23:12So the pandemic being a recent example, you know, and drawing on all of those areas is really important.
23:19So I think your first degree is your first degree. It's your platform. It gives you a grounding.
23:25Then start to look at where else you can go and start to draw on the things that you're also
23:30really interested in and good at.
23:32Wow. So one degree is no longer the end of anything. You can think about, you know, more and more.
23:40I think in some ways people watching might be slightly disappointed to hear that one degree is no longer enough.
23:47But I don't think you need lots of degrees. You do your base degree and then you start to pick
23:52and choose and you study small things about different areas.
23:57And that helps you grow into the space you want to be.
24:01Being multidisciplinary.
24:02And that multidisciplinary interdisciplinarity aspect is something that's becoming more and more common.
24:08So you look at tech companies and particularly those looking at AI and the use of AI, they need all
24:13the people with a tech background.
24:15They also want people with humanities backgrounds because the humanities is informing what's happening on the tech side.
24:21So because you have a degree in one particular area doesn't mean you're locked out of career paths.
24:27Absolutely. That's great advice. Thank you so much, Professor, for your time. I appreciate you chatting to us today.
24:32That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
24:35I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
24:37Thank you so much for watching.
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