00:07Dzień dobry, nazywam się Agata Todorov, a to jest program 12 minut w Euronews.
00:13Moim gościem jest Hans Leitens, dyrektor wykonawczy agencji Frontex.
00:17Hans Leitens jest holenderskim generałem-porucznikiem.
00:21Od 1 marca 2023 roku pełni funkcję dyrektora wykonawczego Frontexu,
00:27agencji Unii Europejskiej odpowiedzialnej za ochronę granic zewnętrznych.
00:31Wcześniej przez wiele lat służył w Królewskiej Żandarmerii Holenderskiej,
00:35gdzie był dowódcą oraz zasiadał w zarządzie Frontexu.
00:38W swojej pracy podkreśla znaczenie współpracy, przejrzystości działań oraz przestrzegania prawa i praw podstawowych.
00:57Nie wiem, co Frontex jest, a co najważniejsze taski?
01:02Frontex jest Europejską Bordę i Kozgadę agencji.
01:06Nasz tasz jest to, aby wspomnieć mewnętrznych stacji i niektórych krajów,
01:10to znaczy nie-eurobnych krajów, ale przede wszystkim bardzo spokojnie do Europy,
01:15aby wspomnieć ich zewnętrznych błędów, zewnętrznych, zewnętrznych, zewnętrznych, zewnętrznych,
01:23z Europą, do swojego kraju, są wracali, ale także w walce zainteresowanych
01:27i zainteresowanych informacją i informacją o sytuacjach na drodze.
01:32Właściwie zjednoczonej w 2023 roku.
01:35Właściwie zjednoczonej w tym roku została podczas intensywnym
01:39i pewnego rodzaju krytycizmu.
01:41Właściwie z tych ostatnich latach,
01:44czy właściwie zjednoczonej o rozwiązanie pomiędzy
01:47specycją human rights,
01:49ale w tym samym tym,
01:50tj.
01:51z
01:51bóźnia
02:19z
02:20Zobaczmy, że to nie było wszystkich.
02:22W tym roku, było zresztą w sprawiedliwe,
02:26że to było dobre sytuacje, kiedy to jest to dobre.
02:28W tym roku, jest to okolera,
02:30że to jest wstrzymać,
02:31musząc we się wydarzyć.
02:34Muszę się wstrzymać,
02:34żebyśmy wstrzymać.
02:35To wszystko, żebyśmy rozwijały się,
02:38a tak, tak.
02:40Zobaczmy, jakie drodze jest najważniejsze,
02:43w tym roku jest najważniejsze,
02:46a teraz wydarzające największe.
02:49Let me first share some numbers.
02:51Every year we compare with the previous year,
02:54and this year we see another decrease of 37% of irregular border crossings.
02:58People are attempting to cross border,
03:01not using the border crossing point,
03:03but trying to circumvene them.
03:05So the numbers are going down.
03:07That's the third year in a row that's going down.
03:09If you look at the concerns I have,
03:11it depends on how you look at it.
03:13The volume, the flows right now,
03:15I think my concern is mainly the route from Libya to Crete.
03:19That's Greece.
03:20And the other one from Algeria to the Balearics.
03:23That's Spain.
03:24Because they are both dangerous,
03:26and the volumes are still high.
03:28The rest of the routes are going down.
03:30But the thing is,
03:31it's not only about concerns about numbers,
03:33it's also about the trip.
03:35And of course we see that the trip across the central Mediterranean
03:37is by far the most dangerous one.
03:39This year already more than 1,000 people died on that trip.
03:42So that's also a concern I have.
03:44And last but not least, of course,
03:46the concern is about, let's say,
03:47the more geopolitical use of migration,
03:50instrumentalisation of migration,
03:51especially from Belarusia and from Russia towards this region.
03:55And another one is,
03:56and also a bit more strategic perhaps,
03:58the flow from Pakistan and Bangladesh towards North Africa,
04:02and then people undertaking the very dangerous trip to Europe.
04:06So it's not only about the numbers.
04:08Numbers are going down.
04:09It's also about, let's say,
04:10the potential that is still there.
04:12I wanted to ask you about Polish-Belarusian border that you've mentioned,
04:16because that's a very unique situation.
04:18I think since the beginning of the existence of the agency,
04:22something like that didn't happen.
04:24I'm talking about the situation when the foreign border patrols
04:28are pushing illegal migrants towards a member of the European Union.
04:33So could you tell me, because you've been to that border,
04:38what have you seen?
04:39And what was, maybe what still is, Frontex's involvement on that border?
04:44Yeah.
04:45I think you're right.
04:46I mean, it's one specific phenomena connected to migration,
04:52but it's very different in the way it is performed,
04:55because it is indeed fully directed by Russian and Belarusian forces,
05:00because we know on the other side of the border
05:02it is under complete control of the authorities there.
05:05So nothing there happens by coincidence.
05:06So we see a different phenomena, for example,
05:08the migrants that are trying to cross the central Mediterranean.
05:12I've been seeing the borders myself, indeed, twice already.
05:18I went there together with General Bagan,
05:20the commander of the Polish border guard,
05:22and I was impressed by both the way they perform it,
05:25but also their commitment to stop it.
05:27Frontex's involvement is limited.
05:29So right now we're only supporting Poland, in this case,
05:33at the border crossing points,
05:34and that depends entirely on the request from the member states.
05:38So in general we are available,
05:40but it's in this case Poland who defines its needs.
05:42War in Ukraine, is it something that concerns the agency?
05:47Because, of course, migrants coming from Ukraine
05:50are coming mainly illegally,
05:53and once again Poland is able to control the situation.
05:57But is the agency in any way involved exactly
06:02in maybe helping on border points, checkpoints with Ukraine?
06:08So we are deployed at the border crossing points,
06:10and, of course, all the neighbouring countries of Ukraine we support.
06:14Also Moldova, which is not an EU member state,
06:17but we have more than 100 officers helping the Moldovan colleagues
06:21to protect the Moldovan-Ukraine border, for example.
06:25We're doing projects both with the member states
06:28and with Ukraine right now,
06:29and I will be going there myself to talk with the Ukrainians
06:32and start a new project soon.
06:34We're also concerned about the moment that there will be peace,
06:37which we all hope for,
06:39and how we then will manage the border together with the Ukrainians
06:42to make sure that not only migration but also security is served.
06:45And I especially mean on any possible phenomena like cross-border crime
06:50that might sort of use the opportunity of fresh peace
06:55to spread their activities also towards Europe.
06:58The status of the agency has changed, if I remember well, in 2018,
07:02which means you're also exchanging classified information with governments.
07:08Can you tell more about that?
07:09So in 2019, it was one year later indeed, we got our last regulation.
07:14It's open for renewal, by the way,
07:15so there will be a new proposal from the Commission soon after summer break, I think.
07:20So we changed then from a more coordinating information-sharing organisation
07:25to an executive agency, meaning that there are officers actually standing side by side,
07:30uniformed, armed and with full authority, depending on the member states,
07:33to support the member states.
07:35Everything we share is based on our regulation.
07:38It's actually quite limited.
07:39So our regulation limits the organisations and the member states
07:43and the countries with whom we can share information.
07:46So actually, I think it's rather limited.
07:48And for this, we have to agree working arrangements.
07:53For example, we did one last week with Europol,
07:55and only after such a legal agreement, which is assessed by the data protection supervisor,
08:00we are allowed to share information.
08:01Sir, I would like to ask you also about entry-exit system that was implemented quite recently,
08:09and it's causing lots of troubles, especially for travellers coming to Europe from other continents.
08:17The queues are very long at the airports, and it's a high tourist season right now.
08:22Some people are complaining that they're waiting even up to five hours and missing their flights.
08:27So the travellers are complaining, the airports are complaining, even the airlines are complaining,
08:33and some of them are blaming Frontex.
08:37Is there any way to improve that situation?
08:40Well, actually, I think blaming Frontex would be a bit difficult,
08:45because we're not the main actor there.
08:46It's the Member States with the European Commission that have established together,
08:52with the support of an EU agency for a large IT system, they created this system.
08:57Also here, Frontex is available for support.
09:01And I must say that in most of the countries, most of the Member States,
09:04most of the airports, airports, everything is going quite well.
09:07There are concerns, and I think the Commissioner and the President have both admitted
09:12that there are still concerns that we have to improve,
09:14that Frontex will be available to help at the request of Member States.
09:18So far, we have received one request.
09:21So right now, we're sending a mission to the area to see what we can do there.
09:25But it depends on what the issue is, and it depends a lot.
09:27The border management 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, looked different than nowadays.
09:33So you're using different technologies, drones, artificial intelligence.
09:38How do you think the border management will look in 10, maybe 20 years?
09:44Do you think it will be completely human-free?
09:47I wish I knew. I wish I knew.
09:47No, it will never be human-free.
09:49So we look at it, let's say, from the perspective of integrating human resources,
09:56technical equipment and intelligence.
09:57So you have to know what's happening, because otherwise you cannot intervene in the right way.
10:01I think looking at the three of them, more and better intelligence will be very important.
10:08I think we will see more state-of-the-art, more perhaps AI-driven equipment in the future.
10:14Right now, we're very cautious and very reluctant,
10:16because we know that implementation of AI will need a very thorough assessment before you do this,
10:23because you have to control it in the end.
10:24And that's the reason why I think human resources will always be in the game, so to say,
10:29because in the end it's human-to-human work.
10:34I think we can use technical equipment to focus more on those with the wrong intent in mind to cross
10:42the borders,
10:42and to also enable others who have the right intent in mind to cross the border as seamless as they
10:49can.
10:50And I think a lot of the technique is already available.
10:53So it's not that we have to wait before a new IT revolution.
10:56I think it's more about having a clear understanding of how this border should look like,
11:01also investing in technology and integrating it.
11:04But I wouldn't bet a lot on having a border which would be without border guards,
11:09because in the end I think that this human touch will stay there.
11:14And it's also important, also for the migrants, to see a human being who they can address their questions to,
11:19and also who can give a human touch to crossing borders.
11:22So that's good information, that it won't be completely human-free.
11:25You're asking my opinion. I think I'm quite well informed.
11:28But again, things are moving very fast right now.
11:32Looking at artificial intelligence, I think it's obvious that that's a game-changer for everybody,
11:38in every business, in every society.
11:40So it will also touch us.
11:41But I can't imagine that it will be without human beings in the process.
11:46Mr. Leitens, thank you so much for joining us here in Warsaw on Euronews.
11:51You're welcome.
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