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00:00Joining us now is Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen.
00:02She's the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations
00:04Committee and co-chair of the Bipartisan NATO Observer Group.
00:08Senator, thank you so much for being with us.
00:10I first want to ask you what your take is on the events.
00:14Thank you, sir.
00:15We have a bit of a delay.
00:15I apologize.
00:16I should have known that.
00:17The events overnight and the impact on the U.S. force position
00:22in the Middle East, both our military and diplomatic installations.
00:30Well, I think like all Americans, I offer my deepest condolences
00:34to the families of those service members who have been lost.
00:38You know, our men and women in the Middle East have performed in an outstanding way,
00:44and they will continue to do that.
00:48But what we need to do is to bring this war to a close
00:51and get the president to get Iran back to the negotiating table.
00:57He has not accomplished any of the goals that he set out for the war in the beginning,
01:01whether it's getting rid of Iran's nuclear program or changing the regime.
01:06We have a more hardline regime in place.
01:08We haven't dealt with the enriched uranium that's on site.
01:12We haven't destroyed their ballistic missile capability.
01:16And furthermore, Iran now is controlling the Strait of Hormuz,
01:20and that was never an issue before with respect to their nuclear program.
01:24They continue to support proxies across the Middle East.
01:28So now is the time to get them back to the table to address these issues
01:33because it seems clear that while we are going to degrade their capability
01:38to finally address all of these issues,
01:41it's not going to be possible just by a bombing campaign.
01:45You sit on the Foreign Relations Committee, the Armed Services Committee,
01:48and I hear you on your call to get Iran back to the table,
01:50but I wonder what route you see for doing that.
01:54You mentioned the president's goals here, what they were at the onset of this conflict.
01:58They have changed.
01:59There's been a plasticity to them over the course of this war so far.
02:03I wonder if it's clear to you what their objectives are
02:06and, again, how you would get them back to the table.
02:08When you say plasticity, I assume you mean they've gone back and forth.
02:11Yes.
02:12When you say plasticity, what we've seen is that the president announces different goals from day to day.
02:18The problem is there hasn't been a strategy for this war.
02:21We need a strategy.
02:22We need to figure out how we're going to get Iran back to the table
02:25so that we can actually negotiate.
02:27Unfortunately, the president is the one-page, two-page memorandum that he announced
02:33that was signed by Iran and the United States was open to vast interpretation
02:41and it basically provided Iran everything they wanted,
02:44and yet they're still not satisfied.
02:46So we've got to have come up with a different strategy,
02:49and so far the president hasn't shared that with Congress or the American public,
02:54how he's going to do that.
02:55I wonder how concerned you are that Iran seems to be employing a different strategy now
02:59with its tactics with attacking these bases.
03:02They have different munitions.
03:04They're barraging them with cheaper munitions
03:05before firing the ones that they can target better,
03:07and there's also reporting in the Wall Street Journal
03:10that perhaps they are getting targeting information and help from either China or Russia.
03:14I'm wondering if you have any insight into that intelligence
03:16and what you think about these tactics if you're concerned about an escalation.
03:22I don't have any insights beyond what's been publicly reported,
03:26but it does go to the point that we need to get Russia back.
03:33We need to address their war in Ukraine.
03:35We need to continue to degrade their capability,
03:38and that's what the Ukrainians are doing.
03:40We need to put pressure on Vladimir Putin.
03:42Now is the time.
03:43There is momentum on Ukraine's side,
03:46and if Ukraine can defeat Russia there,
03:50then that puts real pressure on them in the Middle East.
03:53We need to look at China.
03:55One of the things that we have just reintroduced this week
03:58is the Graham-Blumenthal sanctions bill
04:03that would target the top users of Russian oil and gas,
04:06and China is the number one user.
04:08And if we can shut down their ability to access that cheap Russian oil and gas,
04:14that has a real impact on them,
04:16and it restricts their abilities in the Middle East.
04:19Senator, let me ask you about that bill.
04:21So there's the debate in the Congress about it and what it should do,
04:25but the president has a lot of latitude here were it to be passed.
04:27He would choose to implement those tariffs,
04:29those secondary tariffs or not.
04:31And I'm very curious, as you've been a party to these conversations
04:35with the White House, with the U.S. trade representative,
04:38your sense of the eagerness or willingness of this administration,
04:41the president in particular, to impose those tariffs,
04:43if in fact this is made law.
04:45We've seen the way that he has operated with regard to Russia in the past,
04:51the unwillingness to impose sanctions and tariffs like this previously.
04:54Do you think that he's at a point at which he would likely put those tariffs of 100% in
04:58place
04:58were he given the ability to do so?
05:03Well, the momentum, as I said, is on the side of Ukraine.
05:07And the fact is, this is a very different bill
05:09than the bill that was originally introduced by Senators Graham and Blumenthal.
05:13It is much more narrowly crafted.
05:16It's aimed at the top five users of Russian oil and gas.
05:19It's aimed at the shadow fleet.
05:21We've already sanctioned the shadow fleet from Iran,
05:25and that's had a real impact on their ability to sell oil.
05:29So this would have a real impact on Russia.
05:32And what we know right now is that they're losing over 30,000 casualties a month.
05:38Their economy has taken a big hit.
05:40If we can really put pressure on Vladimir Putin, it's going to have an impact.
05:46That's what this bill is designed to do.
05:48And what we've seen from – it would be a fitting tribute to Senator Graham to be able to pass
05:55this.
05:55When we were in Ankara at the NATO summit last week,
05:58we heard from the White House that they were supportive of the legislation.
06:05The Treasury and the trade representative are both supportive.
06:11So this is the opportune time to get this bill passed.
06:15We have 62 sponsors in the Senate now, and we're still working on more.
06:19So let's get this done, and let's put pressure on Vladimir Putin and shut down his war machine.
06:26Senator, a little less than an hour ago, the president posted on Truth Social
06:30that Republicans should add Iran to that sanctions bill.
06:34He says that's what Lindsay wanted to do and was going to happen in Portland.
06:37I'm wondering if you had any inkling that the late Senator Graham wanted to expand that bill to include Iran,
06:44and if you think the inclusion of sanctions on Iran would either delay or compromise all that support you just
06:49mentioned.
06:52Well, Senator Graham never raised the concern about putting Iranian sanctions on the bill.
06:58The fact is we have significant sanctions on Iran.
07:02When the war started, we put additional sanctions on Iran.
07:06I think if the president wants to do that, let's do it in a separate bill.
07:10But this bill is moving.
07:11It's, as I said, it's targeted in a way that is important and comes on the heels of the G7
07:21conference
07:22where everyone, including President Trump, signed on to a communique that said we need to support Ukraine
07:29and put more pressure on Putin.
07:30That was echoed at the NATO summit.
07:33We know that that's what it's going to take to get Vladimir Putin to the table.
07:39So far, we have not been successful at getting him to the negotiating table,
07:43and let's put more pressure on him to do that.
07:46Senator, we're talking to you in London.
07:48As you mentioned, you were in Ankara for the NATO summit a few days ago.
07:51And I'm very curious to get your perspective on how Europeans are regarding the United States.
07:56I think everyone would say this was at least a relatively successful summit
08:00in the context of past NATO summits the president's been a participant in.
08:03But we have seen Europeans kind of react or comport themselves differently
08:07as the U.S. has begun to kind of disengage with some traditional aspects of their relationship with Europe.
08:12How do you see that relationship today?
08:14Are you worried about it?
08:16What's the path forward as you see it?
08:20Well, as you pointed out, the NATO summit was very successful.
08:24Not only did we highlight the additional spending on defense,
08:27all 32 NATO countries are now at 2% of GDP, which had been an earlier goal.
08:34They're working their way up to 5% of GDP.
08:37We have a number of countries that I think seven now that are over 3%.
08:41And so it was an opportunity both to highlight that
08:45and also to highlight the opportunities in our defense industrial base.
08:50We know that we're addressing threats from China in the Indo-Pacific,
08:55from Russia in Europe, from Iran, of course, and North Korea.
09:00We know we've got to work together with our allies and partners,
09:03and we've got to improve our defense industrial base in a way that allows us to work more collaborative together,
09:10to do co-production.
09:11And we focused on that at the NATO summit in a way that I think was really important.
09:16And we didn't hear from our European partners that they were concerned about the United States.
09:25What we heard was the importance of all of us working together, cooperating.
09:30I'm here in England with a bipartisan delegation from the Congress for the Farnborough Air Show.
09:38It's one of the biggest air shows in the world,
09:40and the American presence here is bigger than it's ever been in the past.
09:44And everyone's talking about how do we work together, how do we continue to innovate,
09:49to keep America ahead of the competition when it comes to aerospace,
09:53which is so important to our future.
09:56Senator, I'm assuming you didn't get that gift from Erdogan at the NATO summit
10:00that some of the other delegates got, I think because we're calling it the Erdogan special.
10:03But assuming you didn't go home with any new weapons,
10:06I do know that you met with Ukraine's President Zelensky while you were there.
10:10It seems like this is a very pivotal time in that conflict,
10:13and there's also some time happening in Kyiv right now inside his government.
10:17What was your conversation with Zelensky like,
10:19and what is your take on what's going on with the leadership of the Defense Department in Ukraine right now?
10:26Well, we talked at the NATO summit about what Ukraine's successes,
10:32about their drone production, their innovation when it comes to drones,
10:36and how critical that's been to the conduct of this war.
10:39One of the people who has been very important in helping to change that direction
10:44when it comes to drone production and the new way of waging war
10:49has been their defense minister, Fedorov, who was dismissed by President Zelensky.
10:54Now, there are demonstrations.
10:56I think President Zelensky has said he's going to listen to what people have to say,
11:00and I hope he's going to be responsive to that.
11:03I want to ask you about this period that we're in when you look at the Ukraine conflict,
11:08this 40-day period that the President Zelensky is really emphasizing additional strikes on Russia.
11:14We've seen him strike ships in the Strait of Azar as well.
11:17How do you view the kind of pivotal nature of this moment in that conflict?
11:21And the images that we saw yesterday from the President's Twitter account were really extraordinary,
11:25the strikes that Ukraine made on Russia.
11:28What does it tell you about the trajectory of the conflict and, indeed, what Ukraine needs at this point in
11:33terms of support?
11:36Well, again, there's no doubt that momentum is on Ukraine's side right now,
11:41and that's why we need to be thinking about every avenue we can to support Ukraine.
11:45We saw tremendous support for Ukraine after the NATO summit, pledging billions of dollars in support,
11:54looking at President Trump, said to President Zelensky,
11:58we agree you should be able to produce the Patriot missile and interceptors in Ukraine.
12:04That was a big step forward.
12:06And thinking about how we put pressure on Russia now and Vladimir Putin is really critical,
12:12and that's why this Russia sanctions bill that we have that would sanction their financial entities,
12:19their oligarchs,
12:20also look at those countries that are benefiting from that cheap Russian oil and gas,
12:25and shut that down, because that shuts down the support for Russia's war machine.
12:31And that's what we need to do.
12:32Their economy is on the brink.
12:34It's teetering.
12:35The casualties that they're losing are just unbelievable from America's prospect.
12:42When you think about, in less than three months, Russia's losing as many people on the battlefield
12:49as we lost throughout all of Vietnam.
12:52So now is the time for us to take action.
12:55I'm hoping Congress will do this, will get this bill passed,
12:59and think about all the other ways that we can try and bring Vladimir Putin to the table to end
13:05this war.
13:06Senator, it does seem that this is at least moving towards a level of pressure
13:10that Putin really hasn't felt prior to this.
13:12But there is some concern with that, and that is if you corner someone, they're going to react.
13:18Are you concerned that a desperate Putin could do something really abhorrent,
13:23like the use of tactical nukes, and what can the U.S. or its allies do to try to prevent
13:28that?
13:31Well, I think what Vladimir Putin is doing right now is already abhorrent.
13:35And the concern is that if he's successful in Ukraine, or even if not,
13:40the one place where he could escalate is against a NATO country.
13:44And that's why doing everything we can to bring him to the table is critical.
13:50Look, he's lost his foothold in South America with Venezuela.
13:55He's in danger of losing Cuba.
13:57He's lost his foothold in the Middle East, in Syria.
14:02Now is the time to add to that pressure to get him to the table.
14:07Let me just ask you to look ahead, if you could, at the way in which you're going to get
14:10more answers
14:11to questions that you have about the administration's strategy going forward here.
14:14I'm curious what's front of mind for you, what you'd like to learn more about,
14:17and if indeed there has been any improvement in the ability of the committees on which you sit,
14:21again, Armed Services and Foreign Relations,
14:23in getting information about strategy from this administration.
14:29Well, not that I'm aware of.
14:31We have a hearing before appropriations on Tuesday afternoon
14:35where Secretary Hegseth and Secretary Rollins will come in
14:39for their supplemental budget request.
14:41We have very few details about what they're planning
14:44and what that would mean going forward for the war on Iran.
14:48We need to see that transparency.
14:51The fact is, in order to be successful,
14:55Congress and the administration should be working together,
14:59and the president and the Secretary Hegseth
15:04have not provided any of those details.
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