- hace 2 días
El consejero Comisionado de Paz, Otty Patiño, le solicitó al gobierno entrante del presidente Abelardo de la Espriella que revise lo que la saliente administración de Gustavo Petro ha hecho con la “paz total”. Aseguró que los procesos abiertos con sectores criminales le servirían de base para profundizar la seguridad que promueve. “No me gustaría que el gobierno entrante, así no comparta sus ideas, fracase”, precisó. Habló sobre el papel de Estados Unidos y de la renaciente Consejería de Seguridad.
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00:10Hello, greetings to all the viewers of El Espectador who are tuning in at this time.
00:16Spectator Interviews, this space where from this publishing house we try
00:22to help the newspaper's audiences understand what is happening in Colombia and around the world.
00:27I'm Daniel Valero, the Politics editor, and in this episode we're joined by the advisor
00:32Peace Commissioner, Oti Patiño. Commissioner, welcome to the hearings of
00:37Viewer, and thank you for being here. Well, thank you to you and thank you to the Viewer, of course.
00:42Listen, Commissioner, let's get started right away. There's a government transition going on at the moment.
00:49We're recording this interview. There's a lot of background noise, if you will, between the splicing and such.
00:56Have you had any dialogue with anyone from the incoming government of President-elect Adelardo?
01:01de la Espriella to deliver the management reports on what peace has been like in this
01:05four-year term? First, that hasn't been possible because the incoming government has stated that
01:12This council disappears in such a way that there is no counterpart to whom to hand over any
01:19report. We, as a council, are administratively dependent on the department
01:28The administrative head of the presidency and our, let's say, political boss is the president himself.
01:35of the republic. The president is in charge of peace in Colombia, and that's what we are.
01:42We are simply on a commission as peace advisors, but we are not an autonomous entity.
01:51of the presidency of the republic.
01:53And in that vein, in any case, there are already a number of reports, documents, and so on.
01:57that they have ready so that, regardless of the method, at least the incoming administration
02:03know what management skills you have to show.
02:07Yes, of course. We have documents that show something important to show.
02:15which includes all the administrative and financial matters. We have that up to date, but also all the
02:23The work that was done. We have a process that is incomplete, like everything else that is done.
02:30of peace, where there are agreements, protocols and developments in about ten regions
02:40of the country, where in some areas we are more advanced than in others, in the various aspects that are
02:48The components of the current total peace process. It was, and work was being done on, three elements
02:57fundamental. In a virtuous triangle, whose fundamental vertex is transformations
03:04territorial. Another triangle is the reduction or de-escalation of violence. And another
03:11The triangle has to do with the possibility of illegal immigrants and even communities passing through.
03:18towards legality. So, in that virtuous triangle, as I was saying before, we move forward
03:31in some more than others. Colombian public opinion still focuses on the aspects of peace and makes
03:40the accounting of the peace aspects of disarmament. And of course, in the case of the Guamuey Valley, we achieved
03:50from their municipality of Putumayo, that nearly one hundred members entered the temporary location zone
03:58from that organization. They've already taken off their uniforms, handed over their weapons, and are there. Their fate is sealed.
04:10Those people will almost certainly be left in the hands of the next government. And that worries us a bit, because we want
04:18that the prosecutor's office also intervene. We've even had difficulties with the civil registry.
04:25that some of them do not want to issue them identity cards, which I think is an attack on the right
04:33of people to have a formally established identity.
04:37And why don't they want to issue them ID cards? What have they been told?
04:40No, there is no clear explanation, because for him to intervene and for it to be possible that
04:48The National Reintegration Agency must act and take action for them, because it needs the
04:57Full identification. We've been saying that, well, we can, otherwise, if the registrar's office
05:05It doesn't work; they have to make an extrajudicial statement of who they are and be able to
05:11to identify in some way, since taking into account as an act of good faith that they
05:16They're going to say what their name is, where they were born, and so on. But of course, well
05:22That is an inefficiency of the State, of a sector of the State, an inefficiency that should not exist.
05:32happen. Beyond political differences and changes in government, the institutions
05:38State entities must operate without taking into account those differences and those political elements,
05:46especially if they harm communities or individuals who, in this case, are
05:52making a transition towards civility.
05:55Commissioner, you say in this response, and we will delve into the subject of these processes shortly,
06:00But what is happening particularly in Putumayo with this dissident group called the Coordinadora?
06:05Bolivarian, she said verbatim, the fate is in the hands of the incoming government and that
06:10We're worried. Why are you worried?
06:13Well, because I'm worried, or we're worried, because we don't know how far the incoming government will go.
06:21has understood or wants to understand what we have done. We have done different things.
06:27processes with different emphases within what we have called that virtuous triangle
06:34And we have made more progress in some areas than in others. For example, in the Mayama area,
06:43In Nariño, we have made significant progress in territorial transformation, roads, schools,
06:51health, so that the people there in the region are increasingly beginning to have much
06:59More trust and more hope in the Colombian state, because the state has finally arrived.
07:05The State arrived, and before then they were totally in the hands of the Armed Organization, which was
07:13She who administered justice provided the community with its most important needs, but upon arriving
07:19When the State arrived, not only the council, but the various branches of the State, Ministry
07:26From the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Housing, the Ministry of Roads, they arrived there and started doing work, let's say,
07:38of considerable weight, let's say, in those areas. So the armed forces gradually lost their power.
07:45of them being the ones who do things. And then that element, I don't know, let's say, to what extent
07:55be willing to view it as a valuable asset by the next government, the incoming government.
08:03which will be collected and recognized by the State itself, by the institutions themselves.
08:11Of course, there have been other factors that have contributed to the de-escalation of the violence.
08:18The mere fact that there are negotiation tables has considerably reduced the number of homicides.
08:25in these territories. In all the places where there are negotiation tables, the number, the violence
08:32The number of homicides decreases. Of course, there are other crimes, such as...
08:40For example, extortion, where some parties maintain it. In some parts, for example,
08:45The recruitment of minors has either not existed or has also decreased. For example, in the Sierra
08:52Nevada, they, the conquerors of the mountains, prefer not to recruit minors, and not because they have
09:00not out of compassion, but because it is much more expensive for them to recruit and train a minor,
09:09In short, when they prefer to buy from the vast array of mercenary labor available, that's fine.
09:17Whether it's among demobilized members of other organizations or within the public force itself, buying their hand
09:24of combative work that is there in Colombia and that generally many times does not find
09:31a job for nobody. So, this issue of the reduction of violence, undoubtedly,
09:44The mere fact, look, that a roundtable discussion has been announced in many places, falls apart vertically.
09:55The violence in those places. Of course, when the State begins to fail to comply, to delay
10:01If it is not fulfilled, violence begins to rise again.
10:06Suddenly, translating a little so that the viewer's audience can better understand the
10:11The issue, what you're warning about is that suddenly, if these processes that are already underway are not continued,
10:16We'll be walking on them, can we expect violent recruitment after August 7th?
10:21Yes, that's what I fear. And those who will suffer the most in this resurgence...
10:27Violent are the communities where they have believed, have had some hope that the State
10:33It can be a useful tool for them, for their rights, because ultimately
10:42The 1991 Constitution aims to ensure that the rule of law prevails throughout the national territory.
10:48Social State of Law. So, for a new disappointment like the one that already occurred during
10:57Under Duque's government, the damage it will cause there and the levels of rebellion would be unthinkable.
11:09of difficulty for people to regain faith in the State.
11:13In that sense, the incoming administration also says it will adjust the entire structure of the
11:20outgoing administration in terms of peace processes and that revives the Security Council.
11:28Does this change in institutional architecture cause you concern, or is it something
11:34An administrative official who, at least on paper, shouldn't touch what happens on the ground?
11:41I don't think there would be much of a problem if the emphasis is on safety, but it should still be looked at.
11:51The issue of justice is very important. Security without justice becomes a breeding ground for human rights violations.
11:58very problematic. And of course, justice without peace can also determine that only the aspect
12:10punitive, not the humanitarian aspect of violence in which conditions and will are considered
12:20that whoever has committed crimes may be taken into account for the application of penalties.
12:26Therefore, those three elements—justice, peace, and security—must be harmonized. If the incoming president
12:36decides, let's say, to give much more weight to security, but doesn't take into account the other elements of peace and
12:43Security, I believe, peace and justice, I believe I would be making a grave mistake. In the sense that
12:50Neither justice alone, nor security alone, nor peace alone, nor peace alone can develop
13:02a process
13:04of coexistence, a process of restoration or establishment of the Social State of Law.
13:11In that sense, do you also believe that the institutional framework derived from the
13:152016 peace agreement? The JEP, the same processes that are with nearly 13,000 people who left
13:22the weapons.
13:24Yes, I'm also very concerned about this reversal that the incoming government is proposing. A reversal that...
13:34only
13:35It could go on until 2016, but, as I said before, it could even lead to the disregard of the 1991 constitution, that is to say,
13:46a reverse of more than
13:4730, 35 years old, and anyway, well, a 10-year reversal is already something
13:55problematic. We are acting under a
14:01a slightly different methodology than the one proposed with the FARC, which stated that nothing is agreed until
14:11that
14:11Everything was agreed upon. That methodology was good in the sense that it led to comprehensive agreements, so to speak, but
14:24when it
14:26He tried to implement them, taking into account that, let's say, at that point the plebiscite had already been lost and also
14:38The government lost, the continuity of Santos' government was lost, and Uribismo won at that time, which was a sector
14:45He was strongly critical of the 2016 peace agreements. And it created a rather awkward four-year pause to begin with.
14:57to
14:57to implement the agreements that were signed in 2016. Then, and also because
15:05Even a year and a half was lost because it took the Santos government to start generating the architecture
15:13There was a lack of institutional support for the fulfillment of the agreements, and a great deal of time was lost. And those lost times...
15:22In political and social terms, it's very costly. In other words, getting people to believe again is very difficult.
15:33Look, the fact that people have increased illicit crops throughout this period, and that there is difficulty for the
15:42Creating new crop eradication programs is extremely complicated. So, attributing the
15:51The growth of illicit crops under this government is not only unfair, but it also lacks a
16:00based on reality. And I don't mean to look back, but to give a logical explanation as to why
16:08throughout this
16:09Some time later, after the 2016 agreements, those planned crops began to grow.
16:18And likewise, the other issue that is also important, the issue of reclaiming abandoned areas
16:30abandoned by the State. The agreement with the FARC creates the territorial development program,
16:41The PDETs. But they weren't implemented during all that time. Let's say, some of that implementation is happening now.
16:49It is being done, but we already started with a fairly large social debt stemming from the 2016 agreements.
16:58And this government also wanted not only to cover that social debt, but also to put an end to the violence in
17:07other territories. Or rather, he put a rather heavy burden on his shoulders, and that certainly makes the
17:16The path to peace may be much slower, but we have still made progress. Agrarian reform,
17:24who hadn't walked in all this time, began to walk. Similarly, the development programs with
17:32The territorial approach also began to take shape. So did crop eradication. And what
17:41We were doing something much more modest, much more focused on small rural areas and
17:47urban areas too. All that accumulated progress we had advanced.
17:56Commissioner, let me ask you a question. You say there was a four-year pause during the
18:01President Duque said that with President Petro this changed, and he was explaining to us in his
18:05The old response is similar to what they've been implementing. But from the demobilized themselves.
18:09or disarmed FARC members say that sometimes the dialogue and implementation was even more
18:15Difficult with you directly and with your government. Who says that? They said that in the same
18:20The session was held, and those who were in Congress before said so. There were even oversight debates.
18:26political sphere where they participated and said that more dialogue was needed than
18:30Apparently there wasn't one. Yes, what's happening is this. The issue of implementation. There's a unit there of
18:37implementation of the agreements that wasn't exactly our responsibility. We
18:42We were basically working with the new agreements. With the implementation of the agreements
18:48There were several people, basically Gloria Cuartas, who was in charge of the unit of
18:56implementation. There was Alejandra Miller who was from the National Reintegration Agency.
19:07which also, let's say, maintained and developed compliance with the agreements with the demobilized
19:13and undoubtedly the murders against the signatories of the agreements decreased significantly
19:22of peace. And also, let's say, within that, let's say, the eradication program was changed somewhat.
19:31of crops, which was what was agreed upon through the PENI. So there was some progress.
19:43considerable. With this council, with this council, dialogue was not only not viable,
19:52but the council was busier, we were busier with the agreements, with the new agreements.
20:01But of course we were keeping a close eye on how they were implementing the 2016 agreements.
20:08Of course.
20:10Okay. Commissioner, you are also a very outspoken person when you speak to the public.
20:15So, what happened to total peace? Why did it almost stall?
20:23No, there isn't exactly one, it's like all utopias, isn't it?
20:28Let's say, it's always when we talk about, that is, when we say the Social State of Law, right?
20:37What does the Social State of Law consist of? In the satisfaction of the basic needs of all people.
20:44And there are governments in which that which is ambitious, in any case, does not advance or advances at a slow pace.
20:53Let's say, not necessarily the one one would want.
20:55During this time, I believe that the construction of a Social State under the Rule of Law,
21:02both in abandoned territories and in territories that have normally had,
21:10Let's say, where the State normally operates, I think there has been considerable progress.
21:17Less poverty, more of a State much closer to the people.
21:24In other words, the same applies to the issue of violence, right?
21:30Regarding escalation, the 1991 Constitution aimed, and continues to aim, to reduce violence.
21:43Initially, the impact of the 1991 Constitution generated, let's say, that hope
21:51And based on that hope, a sharp decrease in violence.
21:56And I think that was felt, and you see the statistical curves where,
22:02After the 1991 Constitution and after a large surge in violence, it began to decrease.
22:08Then, due to other effects, basically because of the drug trafficking economy,
22:14These rates of violence began to rise in many territories.
22:20So, these are phenomena that have occurred where violence, let's say,
22:27has found new life in phenomena that have not been properly addressed in many places.
22:36So, tell someone that the Social Rule of Law has failed, that peace has failed.
22:42All these elements have something of a utopian quality, and total peace has something of a utopian quality.
22:49Any pronouncement and any formulation has an element of direct mandate
22:55and another element of utopia, that is, of long-term mandate.
23:01And it would be foolish to assume that if everything isn't accomplished quickly, it has failed.
23:10In other words, total peace did not fail.
23:12No, of course not.
23:13As I already told you, total peace is based on certain considerations
23:20that have to do with overcoming violence.
23:24The peace of 2016 has to do with overcoming the internal armed conflict.
23:31The 1991 constitution is related to the consecration and establishment of the Social State of Law.
23:41One wonders, have those three things been achieved?
23:45Has the internal armed conflict completely ended?
23:48Has the Social Rule of Law been successfully established?
23:52Has total peace been achieved?
23:54Of course not.
23:55They are, let's say, processes that have started.
24:01The important thing is to recognize where they started,
24:06what has been done based on that and, let's say, give it continuity.
24:11Commissioner, to round off this dialogue and thank you for these few minutes,
24:16Moving on briefly to topics related to peace and security policies,
24:22the incoming president, Abelardo de la Estrella,
24:24He said that almost everything related to total peace
24:27He will be reported to international and US organizations.
24:32And President Gustavo Petro has said that this causes him some concern.
24:36How do you interpret that? Are you also concerned, Commissioner?
24:38Well, it seems to me that the president of La Espriella, Abelardo de la Espriella,
24:48Let's say, he's handling this, trying to give news.
24:53But there are things he has said that have no real basis in either the Constitution or the
25:01laws.
25:02That worries me because of the possibility that it will fall on the shoulders of the Public Force.
25:11All security efforts are a big complication.
25:17General Hugo López, commander-in-chief, who was once commander-in-chief of the Military Forces,
25:26he said, thinking about what was happening in El Plateado and in the Micay Valley,
25:33that 30%, that is, the use of force, could be carried out by the Public Force,
25:38But the other 70% had to be provided by the institutions, the other state institutions.
25:45So, if today the intention is to place the entire burden of security on the Public Force,
25:53I think that, let's say, an injustice and a lack of realism are being committed.
25:58Let's say, how to overcome violence in those territories.
26:03And, of course, it has to do with the administration of justice.
26:08There in those territories, who administers justice and who, in some cases,
26:15It provides, let's say, the circulation of money among people,
26:21Well, they are the illegal actors, they are the criminal actors.
26:26who, in some way, control those economies.
26:29So, to think that with just bullets, let's say, that could be destroyed in an instant,
26:37in the blink of an eye, in 100 days or less,
26:43Well, it seems to me that it's acting outside of reality.
26:48And the worst thing that can happen to us is that the fantasies sold in the campaigns,
26:55when they stumble upon reality, a reality that is harsher than that,
27:00may lead to further disappointments.
27:04And I wouldn't like, of course, for this government to,
27:09Even if one doesn't share their ideas, they will fail.
27:12But so far I haven't seen clarity, let's say, in their arguments.
27:17And does the United States have any concerns, Commissioner?
27:20Of course, because the United States, in some way,
27:24has been suppressing all these expressions of a radical right wing in these countries,
27:33trying to regain a lost hegemony in all these countries.
27:37And while it achieves momentary successes,
27:40In any case, they are not sustainable successes.
27:46And I'm not thinking about the pendulum that sometimes swings to the right, sometimes to the left,
27:52but to think that he's going to try, let's say,
27:57to maintain that hegemony for a very long time.
28:01It is likely that now, with the Mitaka elections in the United States,
28:05the pendulum swings back,
28:07President Trump loses much control within his own country,
28:12within its own Congress,
28:15And that will also create imbalances here.
28:19Oh well,
28:20But we cannot depend entirely on what happens in the United States.
28:24although of course what the United States is proposing
28:27and the inclinations of the United States
28:29determine policy,
28:30or determine Colombian policy.
28:33Commissioner, and let's close this interview.
28:35Take advantage of this space with the viewer
28:37And give a message to President-elect Abelardo de la Esprella,
28:39since she has not been able to speak directly with him.
28:41What does he say to her, what does he bequeath to her, what does he give her, what does he suggest to her?
28:45Rather than just watching the programs, let's say,
28:50and the discussions with the outgoing government,
28:54that he looks at reality,
28:56especially, let's say, from the territories
28:58that have been historically neglected by the Colombian State,
29:03that can engage in dialogue with those communities,
29:06Let's say, today they are beginning to feel the hand of the State,
29:10and of course, based on that dialogue, I can develop a discourse.
29:17While security is not excluded,
29:20Anyway, it can't simply be
29:24the presence and action of the public force,
29:28Because that's not going to solve the problems.
29:31There are already examples, even during this government,
29:35that the mere presence and action of the public force
29:38It may be too quick a defeat for this government.
29:44And one doesn't want this government,
29:48due to situations of lack of vision
29:51and knowledge of the Colombian reality,
29:55You snuck in so fast.
29:57Commissioner, thank you very much for being in El Espectador.
29:59Thank you very much, Daniel.
30:02Very kind.
30:03Well, thank you, Commissioner.
30:04And to you, the audience of El Espectador,
30:06Thank you for joining us in this episode.
30:08And don't forget to stay informed second by second
30:10about what is happening in Colombia and the world
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30:13And, of course, the analyses that are always there.
30:15in the print edition.
30:17Until next time.