What would it take to crash home prices this year?

HousingWire

On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Lead Analyst Logan Mohtashami about what could crash home prices this year.   Related to this episode:   Housing affordability is improving as wages outpace home-price growth  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/housing-affordability-is-improving-as-wages-outpace-home-price-growth/  HousingWire | YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q  More info about HousingWire  https://lnk.bio/housingwire   The Top 5:   Trump says he won’t sign ROAD Act, which could automatically become law tonight  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/trump-says-he-wont-sign-road-act-which-could-automatically-become-law-tonight/  Housing groups push FHFA to delay, revise GSE condo loan changes  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/fhfa-gse-condo-rule-changes/  RealTrends Verified City Rankings reveal where top agents and teams are building scale  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/realtrends-verified-city-rankings/  Data centers emerge as real estate’s newest pricing wildcard  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/data-centers-emerge-as-real-estates-newest-pricing-wildcard/  Housing affordability is improving as wages outpace home-price growth  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/housing-affordability-is-improving-as-wages-outpace-home-price-growth/   Want more from Sarah? Don’t forget to subscribe!  https://www.housingwire.com/subscribe/   The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and

Transcript

00:11Welcome, everyone. My guest today is lead analyst Logan Motoshami to talk about what could crash

00:15home prices. First, here are the top trending articles on HousingWire.com. At the top of that

00:21list is our coverage on the Road to Housing Act. Right now, it's Friday morning, so we don't know

00:26if we'll see a veto from the president on that bill, or if not, it becomes law at midnight tonight.

00:31So I think our coverage of that will be the top story throughout the weekend, whichever way that

00:36that goes. Next, we have housing groups push FHFA to delay revise the GSE condo loan changes,

00:43followed by our Realtrends verified city rankings, looking at where top agents and teams are building

00:48scale. Next, we have a special feature on data centers titled Data Centers Emerge as Real Estate's

00:54Newest Pricing Wildcard. You'll want to check that one out. It's the first in a series that

00:58we're going to do on data centers and how they impact housing. Finally, I just published Logan's

01:03article on housing affordability is improving as wages outpace home price growth. And that's going

01:08to be our topic today. So let's dive in there. Logan, welcome back to the podcast.

01:13It is wonderful to be here. I am going to have so much fun talking about this topic because we

01:19talked

01:20about it a lot last week. We wrote an article about it. So much discussion about, well, we could solve

01:27a lot of problems in America if we could just drive down home prices and bring affordability back. And

01:33I was just like, you know, housing's getting a little bit affordable by itself. And no one's talking

01:40about this because I remember going on Yahoo last week and, you know, the reporter there was like,

01:46home prices hit an all-time high. But there are some real positive benefits on what's happening

01:51with pricing in the last two years. But I think it's being neglected because people just think

01:56nominal home prices declining in America is like a normal thing. And, you know, what will it take to

02:03crash home prices to get affordability back? And people start to, you know, in that regards,

02:09because it's getting, we're starting to get closer and closer to midterms. You know, the housing bill

02:14didn't get vetoed. So that's going to go into play. And, you know, that's part of the questions

02:19that I've been getting the last few days. So I think today just kind of bring a sense of reality

02:24into this talking point, because I think it's one of the most misunderstood housing economic

02:28discussions of this century. Boy, I agree with you. Okay. And the idea of like, oh, we need to see

02:35crashing home prices so people can afford homes. You made the point last week, if you have a really

02:40big dip in home prices, something else, something else bad is happening. That's probably going to

02:45affect people's ability to buy a home or whatever. Like that's not, that's not usually a positive.

02:51So why don't you start with like history? Like how often do we see home prices crash?

02:57So I think this is part of the discussion that of course, myself, I just naturally thought people

03:04knew this, like nominal home price declines are really rare in America, but I just don't think

03:09anybody saw like the data going back to world war two. And then, you know, we, we put into the

03:15article, you know, the, the, the, the data lines that we do basically once a year where we take home

03:21price growth every single year from 1942, all the way to 2025. And there's been periods of times where

03:28home prices escalated, uh, uh, 1943 to 1947 was the hottest home price growth, uh, period, uh, post-world

03:37war two. We had the housing bubble, uh, uh, uh, uh, years where demand credit demand was, was, uh,

03:44overriding supply. Uh, we also had the, the mid, uh, uh, late 1970s where, you know, household

03:52formation, labor force growth, and all those things were coming in with inflation. And then we had COVID,

03:58you know, we had two years of COVID. And by the way, I think people are getting the, that the

04:03whole

04:03illegal immigrants were like, they pushed up home prices by 30%, which was not what the federal

04:09reserve was even writing about. But those headlines were like, try to imply it. And, uh, uh, vice

04:15president Vance was talking about that on X. I go, homie, that's really not how it works that, you

04:19know, uh, the, the Guatemalans cannot come to Los Angeles and outbid BlackRock, you know, because they

04:26just don't have enough cash for those 15 to $20 million homes. So let's bring a sense of reality

04:31into this. We've had, we've had periods of times where prices escalate, but then we've had periods

04:36of time where home prices don't do much at all for, for a long period of time, 1990 to 1996,

04:441954 to 1967. Uh, uh, there's no real nominal declines in the data lines, but there's zero growth,

04:521% growth. And what we're seeing now is what is needed, but it's what typically happens with

04:58housing economics going back decades and decades and decades. This is why we always believe reading

05:04is a good thing, right? So we can explain what happened in 2023, 2024, 2025, and now 2026. Uh, um,

05:15but you know, the, the notion that nominal home price crashing in America is like a normal thing

05:22because of one period of time in history, which had a major credit boom, credit bust, massive inventory,

05:28distress sales, underwater mortgages, none of that's here. And if that was here, it would be a

05:34negative because something went wrong with the economy out there. So put it into context because

05:39people are talking about that, like, you know, highest ever. Um, what do you see actually that's

05:45positive about home price growth this year? Well, basically number one, wages are outpacing home

05:51price growth. Now you could take the total income that's going to be earned, you know, let's say total

05:55wages grew at 3.4% or the year over year data, which could be 3.6, 3.2, doesn't

06:02matter on a month

06:03to month, but in any case, wages are rising faster than home prices. Now, just to make this even

06:10simpler for everybody, imagine if that was the case in 2020, that home price growth was only 2%.

06:17And in 2021, home price growth was only 3%. I'm not writing, it's an unhealthy housing market.

06:23Right. I'm not writing, it's the savagely unhealthy housing market because the supply and demand

06:27equilibrium didn't break so much that, you know, we had what, 10% home price growth in 2020 and 19

06:34%

06:35home price growth in 2021. But now this has to be looked at as a positive way. If you can

06:42get nominal

06:42declines nationally, it just makes housing even a little bit more affordable, but we just don't

06:48have history on it. So people just think that we have dwarves and elves and men sitting around

06:54somewhere and somehow with the magic stones from the elves are going to come and just build all

07:00these beautiful homes that people want to buy for. And while incomes are rising, you know, somehow

07:06those homes are going to, whatever, the homes that are in the market are going to be, you know,

07:09crashing in prices because of that. It's just not how it works. And I used to always like show people

07:15how home prices versus per capita income, like other countries are so much more expensive than us.

07:21Like if you look at France and England and Australia, New Zealand and Canada, of course,

07:29like, you know, as bad as it was here, it's worse around the world. But here, you know,

07:36the last two years have been a positive, you know, 2024, I would almost put into that. I thought,

07:42you know, we would get 2.33% home price growth. We ended up at four. So it was kind

07:45of somewhat of

07:46a wash, but this, this is a, this is a period of time that resembles what our history has shown.

07:52And this fantasy of home prices crashing that all these educated people who have jobs and have sex and

07:59have kids and take their kids to school and they go to work and they come back and they wake

08:04up.

08:04Somehow they're going to, in a totality, sell you their house at a huge discount to the market

08:12pricing. And then some people don't even, don't even understand that if you're negative, if you're

08:17negative on the, on the equity, on the debt, their bank won't even let you sell it because it has

08:22to

08:22go to the short sale. So I just think the whole conversation gets lost because again, we have a

08:26bunch of jackasses running around this country doing YouTube about home prices are going to crash and

08:31X and X and it's 2026 y'all. It is 2026. Look yourself in the mirror and go, I am

08:37an educated

08:37man and a woman, and I'm not going to listen to these people anymore. I'm going to listen to people

08:41who have models and forecasts, but what could it be? Like what, like how could it possibly happen

08:47that you can have 29 or 35 or 42% home price crashes that these people have been clowning themselves

08:54on the internet for, for years and years? Okay. Well, I mean, are you, do you want to answer that

09:00specifically? Are you saying that in a rhetorical thing? Yeah. Let me, let me, let me give you,

09:03let me give you a baseline. So number one, we do have history on this, right? This isn't like

09:08something that it's never occurred. So how do we look at it in that light? First of all, what I

09:14need

09:14to see, number one, did we have any kind of credit boom where we have an excessive amount of demand

09:21being pushed into the housing market? This has been a big talking point of minds in the last

09:25decade saying, well, how do you guys think you're going to have a bubble crash when it was the

09:28weakest housing recovery ever? So I always tell people go back and read the data from 2010 to 2019,

09:34right? And then you could see mortgage demand growth was the weakest ever recorded in history.

09:40And we had mortgage rates between three and a quarter and 5% and that was happening. That was the

09:44baseline of my work in the last decade, that it would be the weakest housing recovery ever.

09:47Uh, and that's just demand, housing starts, all those things. So basically we don't have that,

09:53nor did we ever have a sales boom here. Sales picked up a little bit, uh, from the pre-cycle

09:58highs, but it only kind of lasted 18 months during the housing bubble credit years. If you look at the

10:04purchase application index, that index went from 300 to 500. The index goes from 100 to 300. So you saw

10:11this major credit boom. You saw this major sales boom. You saw these major price gains, you know,

10:17but you didn't see inflation. Inflation wasn't taken off. Wages weren't taken off,

10:22but the credit amount. So that was a credit boom and bust. Do we have that here? No.

10:27And we, and we can't have that here because of what happened, you know, because of Dodd-Frank

10:31and everything that happened afterwards. When Dodd-Frank came in and qualified mortgage came

10:36into law, it's basically, that was it. It was at the end of the story, right? You're never going to

10:41have a credit sales boom. This is one of the reasons why I'm not a big sales boom person. I

10:44just don't

10:45have the credit cycles and housing tenure has doubled and in some cases tripled. So you don't

10:49have the turnover nor do you have the credit demand. So millions and millions of people buy

10:52homes, households are formed, we get more people working. So naturally you can grow some sales,

10:57but there's only a certain amount of sales you have throughout the year because people stay in

11:01their homes longer, right? And, you know, even though millennials and Gen Z are big, they're not

11:06like two to three times bigger than the baby boomers or Gen X. So now the housing data looks,

11:11looks, looks, always looked normal to me. But when affordability gets completely whacked,

11:17you naturally see sales decline. But number two, so you didn't have a credit boom. Number two is you

11:23need to see an escalation of inventory with sales declining. 2005 sales peaked, existing home sales

11:31peaked 7.2 million. 2008 sales took three years, but it declined all the way down to a little bit

11:38under

11:38four million. During that timeframe from 2005 to 2007, active inventory in 2005 was two and a half

11:47million. That's roughly almost a million higher than where we are today. So when the housing bubble

11:52was peaking, active inventory was already a million higher. This is the NAR data, not ours.

11:58Then sales crashed for years. Inventory went vertical. You rarely have vertical inventory,

12:05and it never happens actually, but you had it 2005 to six to seven, right? So we went from two

12:13and a

12:13half million to four million. So four million active inventory right now. So let's think about this for

12:18a second. We're at 1.56 million today, right? Normal is two to two and a half million. So you

12:25have to

12:25think about the supply and demand equilibrium has to break to where all these people cannot find buyers.

12:30So they have to cut prices to get whatever buyers that stopped at the end of 2022. This is why

12:36we

12:36always highlight November 9th, that home sales stop around 4 million, the supply and demand

12:42equilibrium changes. So you don't have that anymore. And now it's 2026. It's July, 2026. The headlines

12:50were all prices at an all time high. So now those are two things, no credit boom, no inventory. The

12:56third thing is you, we don't have history of nominal declines, but when we did have history of big price

13:03crashes nationally, right? We're not talking about Austin or some city in Florida that nobody knows

13:09about. We're talking about the national data line. Here we are looking at the credit profiles. FICO

13:15score is excellent. Why? Majority of people have 30 year fixes. Okay. We're looking at the equity data.

13:20Back then in 2010, over 23% homes were underwater. Now, depending on who you listen to, could be one

13:26to 2% or even under 1%. So you don't have the negative equity factor anymore. Why is negative

13:33equity important in this variable? Because those are distressed sellers, right? And they have to go

13:37through a foreclosure process or a short sale process because they don't have enough equity to

13:42sell their house, right? We don't have that issue here, right? The nested equity positions are the

13:47highest ever recorded in history. But then you had 15 million plus of loans that were in delinquencies.

13:54Now remember, one to 4% of all loans in America, mortgages are in some stage of delinquencies,

14:00right? Foreclosure data has been rising from the low base. We're just back to pre-eco. You always have

14:04foreclosure data every single month, right? It's like jobless games. You never have zero jobless games.

14:10We never have zero foreclosures. So basically the supply and demand equilibrium of what we've seen is

14:16no stress sellers. How do we know this? New listings data. If I can die tomorrow,

14:22I'm going to say, you guys all look at the new listings data. If there's ever stress in the data

14:25lines, new listings data would go vertical because you're working from a level. We're not even back

14:30to normal in our new listings data, what we saw from 2013 and 19, but that data line was running

14:36at

14:36250,000 to 400,000 per week for years. Per week. That always floors me, per week.

14:43Per week for years. I sit here and this is why I put it on this tracker every single weekend.

14:49I'm

14:50never going to take it off because it somehow has to embed itself into the system that that was a

14:55once in a lifetime event and you don't have the credit boom, you don't have the excess inventory,

15:01and now you don't have the stress sellers. So what are you, what, what are you modeling? Oh,

15:07oh, I'm remiss. You don't have a model. Y'all just throwing stuff up in the air,

15:12trying to get attention for yourself. Cause you're an elderly middle-aged guy running around. I need

15:17attention. So I'm going to talk about home prices crashing, or I'm some real estate investor trying

15:21to go out of the home prices are crashing, or I'm some anti-centric home prices are just throwing

15:25stuff in the air. So why, what we do is we want live debates, baby. We want to get your

15:30name

15:31and face and we're going to get your forecast and put you in the ring and string you out for

15:34the next 10 years. Cause homie, I'm going to take every last one of y'all out, but everyone

15:39will know your name and face. So in that regard, now you don't have three things. So something else

15:44has to come in to defeat the supply and demand equilibrium. That's why you never saw crashes,

15:50even though you had prices follow volume. Oh, wait a second. Prices didn't follow volume.

15:55Danielle DeMar Booth was wrong again. I'm shocked. No, how is it possible? In any case,

16:03prices never followed volume in the way that people thought price growth, slow down. That's

16:08the history of housing economics, right? Price growth can slow down, but nominal crashes need

16:13to stress sellers. You don't have them. You don't have negative equity in scale, nor do you have

16:19inventory going escalate or escalate. We are sitting here. It is July. It is a fourth calendar year of

16:25technically the lowest home sales ever on the existing home sales market. And we're at 1.56.

16:30We are not even back to what the normal level was. Why home owners are different. Okay. There

16:37are not fragile men and women who live in eggshells and cry on the internet every single day until the

16:43afterlife. Right. And if you understand that you will understand why this did not occur the last few

16:49years and why the history of it going back to 1942. Why? Because most of you listen to this,

16:55read books. You don't burn them. So you should understand, but if you need to explain it,

17:01take these variables and go with it. And when you do see escalating inventory, when you do see

17:06distressed sellers, distressed sales as a higher proportion of normal sales, that's the backdrop for

17:12bigger nominal home price declines. But now it's just not the case. But home price growth,

17:181.8% in the last report, wages are almost basically double that. It's a positive thing.

17:25That's how you get affordability a little better. But you're not going to say,

17:28oh, I'm the righteous person. We need home prices to crash because we need affordability.

17:32It doesn't work that way with American wages and household balance sheets. That's not how it is. And

17:38the builders aren't going to go, oh, we're just going to build a lot of homes. Even though we don't

17:42have buyers for them, we're just going to have them sit there and wait. And then we're going to

17:46have to cut prices. And then we're going to lose our profit margins. We got to lay off a bunch

17:49of

17:49people. That's not how it works. And I say, look at housing starts during the housing bubble years.

17:54Housing starts are booming. Did housing get affordable? No. Prices took off. So inflation is

17:59just part of the system that we're in. But you can't break the economic models because you feel like

18:06you're sounding like a righteous angel. Oh, my God. We're just going to drive prices down.

18:10And look at what's happening in the economics in the last few years. So if you want to live in

18:16that

18:16fantasy, go ahead. But if you want to understand how it's working, only one person in America could

18:22do it and make it entertaining. And that's the chart, Daddy, 24-7. You had to throw that in there,

18:28right? I think I would tell all the listeners, Logan, you wrote a really good

18:34synopsis of this on Friday that you guys should go look at because I feel like you also made a

18:38great case in there of the interplay between inventory and inflation and wage growth and all

18:44the other things that temper affordability, that make it more affordable besides just like,

18:49okay, the only thing we have that we can, the only lever we can pull is mortgage rates

18:55or home prices have to come down. And you are making the case that there are other things that

19:00that can affect affordability and inflation is one. Wage growth, which you've talked about,

19:05inventory, like it all goes together. A deflation is always part of something

19:11really bad unless you have like an inflationary explosion and then the deflation bit gets you back

19:17to what was normal. You know, how I look, how I explain this to people, like, look at Austin. What

19:24happened to Austin? Remember, everyone says Austin built so many homes that it's affordable there.

19:31Austin went up 76 and a half percent in two and a half years.

19:37When I say that to the yes in my backyard people, I go, so where were you at then?

19:43Where did all the building that you said in the last decade help Boston? It was 76 and a half

19:47percent

19:48in two to basically two and a half years. That's double what the U.S. was doing. McFly, Bueller.

19:55It was an unbelievable low inventory, high demand money coming from California. Yes. And guess what

20:03happened? That was a double from what the national, oh, wait, we're not getting as much California

20:09people in Austin. So prices have come back down. Average it out. Is it really like,

20:16if you take Austin and average it out after, is it really like all that building? You had an explosion

20:23in prices for low inventory, low rate demand picking up, money coming from other states. You don't have

20:30that anymore. So is it really like we built all these homes? Or we should have built all those homes.

20:37Well, I mean, I'm just saying that is that they people completely forget that Austin went up 76 and

20:43a half percent in two years. And they're saying, well, we built all these. No. What happened then?

20:49There is a supply and demand equilibrium that has to work with this. So Austin escalated out of control,

20:55like unbelievable. And it fell. It's one of these few cities in America that have these

21:01big, big price declines and average it out for since 2020. It doesn't look that crazy

21:08anymore. You can have an environment like that. But to make that a national story,

21:14then you need the national data to kind of look like that as well. Assuming, let's say, Americans,

21:20a big chunk of their buyers come from overseas, right? Well, we have less

21:26immigration from home buyers. That would be a problem if the US were alive. But that's not the

21:31case. So let the supply and demand equilibrium kind of guide you here. That's why we wrote the

21:37tracker for this to show you, is inventory really escalating? Is new listings data? Because we want

21:43to make sure that y'all get this. So there is no, I did not know what was happening. How

21:49did we miss this?

21:49No. Look at the foreclosure data, 2005, six, seven, eight. These things were breaking in an

21:57economy that was expanding. That's never a good sign. That is never a good sign. And then the job

22:03loss recession happened after that. And the credit markets were broke. I mean,

22:08so history is not on your side here. So create something else, but you still need the supply and

22:13demand equilibrium to break and break with duration, right? You know, 2007, 8, 9, 10, 11. You

22:22have five years of price declines. You have five years of stress in the data line because, you know,

22:28debt deleveraging takes time, right? This is a foreclosure. In some states, it took like five or

22:33six years. I'm sure there's people still living in their house that, you know, were foreclosed in 2009,

22:38you know, how, how, how some states operate, but here just wasn't the case. So drop that fantasy

22:46about, Oh, we just, if we just crash home prices, everyone will be happy. It just doesn't work that

22:52way because people make this argument about, well, two thirds of the homeowners are going to be mad.

22:58Guys, there is no avenue for this unless you have major, major distress. The builders aren't going to

23:03do this for you. Why? The builders don't typically build over 120,000 completed units for sale.

23:09That's when they go, and this is not just because the housing bubble happened. People say, well,

23:13the builders learn from the house. No, they've been doing this for decades, decades, people,

23:17decades. And I show the chart and people go, I've never seen that chart before. Of course you haven't,

23:22because you wouldn't have come with that hypothesis if you did. So this is why I love this topic.

23:30I can tell you love this topic. It's going to be midterm soon. And then, you know,

23:35the Yahoo anchor said, you know, so what do you think of this housing bill?

23:40Anything to help with supply is great. I'm just always skeptical because for decades and decades,

23:46I've heard people say, we just need to build more homes. We just need to build more homes.

23:50And I go, guys, where's housing starts right now? All I'm hearing is we need to build more homes.

23:58Where are housing starts right now? Okay. Take a chart. Where is it? Oh my God. It's,

24:03it's early COVID-19 recession levels. Why is it? Why is this happening? We need to build more homes.

24:10Why we, this is why we wrote that article in June, June, 20, 2021. We said, this is going to

24:17be the

24:18talk and people are going to still say the same things out here. And it's five years later,

24:22five years later. It's just like here. We're still here. Why? We are going to all go to the

24:28graves like this, right? At some point, the baby boomers are going to die. They're not going to take

24:34their homes to the grave, right? The builders know this as well, right? So what their children do with

24:40the homes becomes very interesting in 2035 and on, but come on people. It's like, people see this. Oh my

24:46God. I, this did, there was a commercial building that nobody was using. We built a 10, five story

24:54condos in there. Yay. How's housing starts looking in your city? Yeah. They take like one picture and

25:00they go, Oh my God, we're making a big difference. And they go, well, we need to build more homes.

25:03Yeah. Housing starts a lot. Why is that happening? The math, baby, the math, multifamily construction,

25:09boom, late sixties. We did it. We did a loan program in the early eighties. We did a tax benefit.

25:14Look at the data. And then when he took it away, it's like, Oh, so that's why we wrote that

25:19article

25:19in 2021. You need to get the government of all because the private sector is here to make money.

25:26Dan Aykroyd, Ghostbusters, 1984. It's the private sector. They expect results. It's not the public

25:34sector. That is a perfect place to end this podcast. I think we're all in the, we're all in the

25:40private

25:40sector here. Uh, well, most of us, Logan, thank you so much for, uh, being so passionate about

25:46this topic. I know we, we do this probably every six months. You, you, uh, talk about,

25:52you know, why home sales, why home prices are not crashing and, and what would, what would it take to

25:58do that and why we don't want that? That's not the answer. Well, I mean, I mean, it's, it's,

26:02it's a fantasy dream. It's just, it's just people think they're, they're, they're sounding like golden

26:07angels by saying this. And, and I've, I've got, I've seen, I've, I've heard this so much. I,

26:12I heard this during the housing bubble years. We just need to build more. I was like, Lord,

26:16Lord have mercy. But it's just, this is what we do as human beings. And, you know, we, if we,

26:23if we really wanted to get in there somehow we, the private sector and the public sector have to work

26:29together and, and figure something out. But if you're letting one trying to dictate and the other,

26:35or just the others just, Hey, I need to make money or else if I don't, you know, so it's

26:39just,

26:39this is how it's operate. And I always say, I don't want to say this is from 1940. This is

26:43literally, it's been operating like this since the Peloponnesian war. So history is on your side here,

26:49right? Absolutely. Logan, thank you again. We will talk again soon. Pleasure Wheeler.

26:54Bye.

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