- 10 hours ago
Jack Antonoff, David Crosby, Kesha, Tim McGraw and Boots Riley joined the Hollywood Reporter Roundtable to discuss the songs they wrote for the year's biggest films.
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00:00:08Hello, and welcome to Close-Up with the Hollywood Reporter.
00:00:11I'm Rebecca Ford, and I'd like to welcome Kesha, Tim McGraw, Mark Ronson, Diane Warren,
00:00:18Boots Riley, Jack Antonoff, and David Crosby.
00:00:21Thank you guys for joining us today.
00:00:23I'm going to start it off and take you way back,
00:00:26and have you tell me about the first song you ever wrote,
00:00:30and when it was, and how old you were, and what it was about.
00:00:36Wow.
00:00:37Tim wants to start it.
00:00:39I don't know if I can remember that far back.
00:00:42Honestly, I can't, and I didn't really think about it,
00:00:45hadn't thought about it in years until you said it, and it's weird,
00:00:47but I grew up in a little town, Stark, Louisiana,
00:00:50which is probably the size of this room.
00:00:52Very small town, just cotton farming and bean farming
00:00:55and driving a tractor my whole life and all that stuff.
00:00:59But I remember specifically, I don't remember exactly how old I was,
00:01:03but it was when Princess Diana and, was it Willie?
00:01:07Charles got married, when Prince Charles got married.
00:01:10And as a kid, there was something about her that, I mean,
00:01:13I just fell in love with her like everybody else,
00:01:14and probably every boy did at that time and fell in love with her.
00:01:17So I sat down and wrote a song about their wedding
00:01:21and about Princess Diana and how beautiful she was.
00:01:24And I don't remember how it goes.
00:01:25I just remember something about you look so much like a queen,
00:01:29something like that.
00:01:29It was terrible.
00:01:31But that was the first song I remember actually sitting down and writing
00:01:34and getting enjoyment out of writing a song
00:01:37and understanding that you could actually put words to paper
00:01:40in a tune and a melody and come up with something that you think is good.
00:01:44Whether it was or not, it's a whole different story.
00:01:47We've all been down that road.
00:01:48But it was about Princess Diana.
00:01:50That was the first thing I remember writing.
00:01:52Wow.
00:01:52Yeah.
00:01:53Sweet.
00:01:54Kesha, do you remember?
00:01:55Oh.
00:01:56I just remember it was really bad.
00:01:58I was like 12 and it was about champagne.
00:02:01Wow.
00:02:02All right.
00:02:02I have no idea what champagne tasted like,
00:02:04but I was thinking about that.
00:02:06But you were inspired.
00:02:07Oh, yeah.
00:02:08Boots, how about you?
00:02:10I was writing the school play
00:02:13and I didn't rap or anything,
00:02:15but it was requested that we did
00:02:18a East Oakland version of West Side Story
00:02:21with raps in it instead of songs.
00:02:24And so I think the first thing that was easy for me
00:02:28was our version of what's the song that they sing?
00:02:32Something to be in America or something.
00:02:34When it will be in America.
00:02:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:35So I wrote a rap version of that
00:02:38and wrote the raps for the thing thinking,
00:02:42okay, this is going to be terrible.
00:02:44And it was terrible, but nobody booed.
00:02:46And so I was like, maybe I can rap.
00:02:49About how old were you?
00:02:51I was like 15.
00:02:53Wow.
00:02:53You know.
00:02:54That's amazing.
00:02:55So that was the first rap that I wrote.
00:02:57David, how about you?
00:02:58Do you remember your first one?
00:03:00I do.
00:03:00I do.
00:03:02I had already decided that I wanted to sing.
00:03:06My dad was a cinematographer who made films.
00:03:10And so I thought originally,
00:03:12well, I've got an in there.
00:03:14I'll get to be an actor.
00:03:16Mainly because of girls.
00:03:19That was sort of my main motivation in life at that point.
00:03:22It's all the good stuff.
00:03:23And then I went down to the coffee house and I sang
00:03:27and I realized I loved singing.
00:03:29And so I, the first song I wrote,
00:03:34I was following a, there was a folk duo called Bud and Travis.
00:03:39And Travis Edmondson, one of the two guys,
00:03:42they had split up and he was playing at a coffee house in Hollywood.
00:03:46And I was sort of sitting there hawking his changes,
00:03:49you know, and go there at night and sneak in,
00:03:52watch how he played the guitar.
00:03:55Figure out how he was doing, what he was doing,
00:03:57because he was pretty good at it.
00:03:59And I wrote a song for him and he recorded it right away.
00:04:01I wrote a song and he recorded it right away.
00:04:04And it was a terrible song.
00:04:05Your first song got cut.
00:04:06That's pretty good.
00:04:07Got cut immediately.
00:04:08And it was no good.
00:04:09Which is even worse, because it's down on a record.
00:04:14I don't think I wrote a song that I would have played for any of you
00:04:18until I was in the birds.
00:04:20I wrote one called Everybody's Been Burned.
00:04:25That was the first decent song I wrote.
00:04:27But before that, there were several absolute crap songs.
00:04:31There's no question.
00:04:33After that, all genius.
00:04:36Were you, I mean, as a writer, I mean, I know,
00:04:39I'm certainly this way, really hard on yourself
00:04:42and hard on your songs, like harder than you would be on other people's?
00:04:46You know, your ego's involved.
00:04:49You want to be good.
00:04:50Yeah.
00:04:50And in the bands that I was in, not now.
00:04:53I'm in a cooperative band now, but I was in a very competitive band.
00:04:57So we were always trying to top each other,
00:05:01frantically trying to make the songs be as good as we possibly could.
00:05:05Did that make the songs better than in your cooperative situation?
00:05:09I think cooperative works better than, you know,
00:05:13I think collaborative works better than competitive.
00:05:16Competitive winds up at war.
00:05:19Collaborative winds up at a symphony orchestra.
00:05:21That's my side of the clock.
00:05:24That's really where I, when I was a little kid,
00:05:27I saw a symphony orchestra and it stuck in me
00:05:31that the power of the whole thing was all those elbows moving at the same time.
00:05:35And I got the picture that it was big because all those people were cooperating
00:05:40to make a one thing.
00:05:42That really stuck in me.
00:05:44Somebody did write the thing, though.
00:05:47I...
00:05:48So...
00:05:49You know, like, and make them all do it all at the same time.
00:05:52But the power that it hit me with was the cooperative effort
00:05:59of the 90 people in the orchestra all making one sound.
00:06:03Kind of like the government.
00:06:05No!
00:06:07No!
00:06:08You're kind of like what the government's supposed to be.
00:06:10Well, Diane...
00:06:11Here we go.
00:06:12Sorry, that's a mild one.
00:06:13No, no.
00:06:14Let's talk about the writing process, though.
00:06:17What is it like for you?
00:06:18Do you get writer's block?
00:06:19What do you do if it's just a song just isn't working for you?
00:06:24Diane?
00:06:25Um, I don't get writer's block a lot.
00:06:27Knock on.
00:06:27There's more here than there.
00:06:29Um, like I'll spend two days on two lines.
00:06:31But the rest of the song was, like, easy.
00:06:34If I believe in a song, I just have to, like, you know, walk away for a minute.
00:06:38Going into, like, the first day of a new project for me is, like,
00:06:41this the worst combination of, like, terrible first date,
00:06:45first day of school.
00:06:46Like, you just feel like, oh, this is going to be the one
00:06:48and everyone remembers I'm a, finds out I'm a fraud.
00:06:50I'm going to have no great ideas.
00:06:52And you just forget everything.
00:06:53And then you just kind of sit down and, like,
00:06:55maybe over one day or two days, like,
00:06:56okay, something's coming back.
00:06:58I mean, that's just obviously for me.
00:06:59Yeah.
00:07:00One thing that I've been obsessed with lately is it does go away.
00:07:03It's not an endless well.
00:07:04And I think all writers know that.
00:07:05So, like, your point, like, is, like, is it over?
00:07:07Is everyone going to find out I'm a fraud?
00:07:08Like, like, unless you, you...
00:07:11Well, but life is infinite.
00:07:12So there's, like, always something to write about that you didn't think about.
00:07:17There's always other ideas.
00:07:18There's always something to write about.
00:07:18And you think it could be, like, luck, for instance.
00:07:20Like, you have luck.
00:07:22And then one day you wake up and you just don't have luck anymore.
00:07:26I think that's the crazy thing is you have to live to have things to write about.
00:07:30Yeah, yeah.
00:07:30But then you have to be in the hole to constantly...
00:07:33So I think songwriters do this fascinating thing where they have one foot in and one foot out.
00:07:36Which is why I think a lot of songwriters have tough personal lives because...
00:07:40Think about it.
00:07:40All you guys hear, right?
00:07:41Aren't you always, like, someone says something and you're always kind of, like, clocking it?
00:07:45Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:07:47And so I think that having half of your mind or body not in reality because you're putting it in
00:07:53this file cabinet is fucking great for songwriting, but...
00:07:56Bad for life experience.
00:07:57Yeah, it could be bad for life experience.
00:07:58And they're funny because you need the life experience to write.
00:08:00You need the life experience to write.
00:08:00And you need to be half there to remember it.
00:08:04Or have a good imagination.
00:08:05I've never had a personal life my whole life, really.
00:08:08You just imagine what?
00:08:09You know, what would it be like?
00:08:10Like, I want to have a near-life experience.
00:08:14Let me ask all of you a question because this has happened to me recently.
00:08:19I started out writing by myself.
00:08:22And as I said, I was in competitive bands and it was very much a solo thing.
00:08:27And then I wrote a song with other people and I liked it, Wooden Ships.
00:08:31I wrote it with Stills and Paul Kander.
00:08:34And since then, particularly recently, in the last, like, four years, I've been writing almost constantly with other people.
00:08:42Because the other guy always thinks of something I didn't.
00:08:45It's as if you had two painters and they each had a palette.
00:08:49And this guy had seven colors and this guy had seven colors.
00:08:52When you put them together, you got 14 colors and it's better painting.
00:08:56Well, my...
00:08:57You do that?
00:08:58Well, my thing is basically purely collaborative because I rarely sit down and write by myself at the piano.
00:09:04You know, usually I'm producing an artist.
00:09:05And sometimes you're there to give a lot of the song.
00:09:08Sometimes you're there just to help with a few lyrics via bouncing board, give a few chords, help finish the
00:09:13next line.
00:09:14So I only know that side of it.
00:09:17And I think that...
00:09:17Do they spark you?
00:09:18Do they spark stuff in you?
00:09:19They do absolutely spark.
00:09:21And, like, what I would say also, what you're saying, Jack, is, like, about it running out.
00:09:25Luckily, for better or for worse, the best songs come when you're going through a trying time, really.
00:09:31That's what I find.
00:09:32And luckily, life will always find a way to deal your shithand every now and then.
00:09:36So I feel like that's the good thing about it.
00:09:39Like, you'll never get...
00:09:39The well won't run dry because I feel like you'll always have those kind of life experiences.
00:09:43And in that place, whether it's, like, an Amy Winehouse or whoever it is, like, I get to sort of
00:09:51tap into their well of giant emotion for a little while.
00:09:55And sometimes it's not even fair because I'm going along for the ride on their horrible, tragic life experiences because
00:10:01that's my job to make the best song that I can with them.
00:10:04And I didn't have to necessarily even go through half of that stuff.
00:10:06But I think that that's what keeps me, every new project, like, just rejuvenates me because I'm always getting into
00:10:13somebody else's sort of life experience and then seeing how it matches up with my own.
00:10:17You like that chemistry, don't you?
00:10:19I do.
00:10:20I need it.
00:10:21Also, with me, for my last couple albums, I worked with my co-producer, Damien Gallegos.
00:10:27And what's weird is he was my friend for a long time and we just were in the same building
00:10:34doing stuff.
00:10:35But he always has these references that sometimes I hate.
00:10:38Like, I'll be working on a song and be like, that reminds me of something.
00:10:42And I'm like, you said that.
00:10:43And it's just, oh, now I don't like this song.
00:10:46That can ruin it.
00:10:46But...
00:10:46Yeah, but that can help.
00:10:47But exactly.
00:10:48Then it really just, it helps me see a side of the song that I wouldn't have seen before.
00:10:56Exactly.
00:10:58You know.
00:10:59Speaking of collaboration, Mark, tell me about working with Gaga on Shallow.
00:11:03You know, I know you'd worked with her on Joanne before.
00:11:05Yeah.
00:11:05It's a little more of the natural, I guess, version of her.
00:11:11How did the two of you sort of come to that song?
00:11:14I think that we were probably lucky that we had worked on Joanne a bit and, like, broken some ground
00:11:19where she was ready to go somewhere very personal when we wrote Shallow.
00:11:23I think probably if it was a regular songwriting session we had just met the day before, I don't know
00:11:27if we would have tapped into that.
00:11:29She was obviously writing as Allie.
00:11:32You know, she had that character.
00:11:34She knew that that's what she wanted to do.
00:11:38But you can't help but tap into your own emotion.
00:11:43Like, I feel like if you're just writing a song, like, specifically for the character and only doing that, then
00:11:47you're almost like just completing a task.
00:11:50But, like, if you want to get emotion that obviously everybody, even if you're writing for the film, is drawing
00:11:55from something in their own life and that's what kind of makes people feel it in their gut when they
00:12:00hear that song.
00:12:01Well, I can only speak for myself, but I know she was writing for Allie and, you know, this was
00:12:04supposed to be, I guess we probably imagined it was the end credit song.
00:12:07We had no idea at the time it was going to become this part of the narrative.
00:12:10But the way that, that's everybody's, for lack of a better word, everybody's shit and life experience and trials and
00:12:20tribulations is kind of in that song and being channeled for this one person to sing in a film.
00:12:25Were you proud of the job she did?
00:12:27I couldn't believe it.
00:12:29Because when you have somebody like that that you can write a really good song, that's subjective.
00:12:36But when you have a brilliant filmmaker and this performance, like, that is just, like, giving your song, like, the
00:12:45biggest, to give it, give it a, call it a leg up is the biggest understatement of all time.
00:12:50I loved it. I thought you did a great job.
00:12:51Yeah.
00:12:52I remember leaving, actually, I saw Early Cut and the first time I saw that Bradley had worked the song
00:12:56into the script.
00:12:57And I just, I couldn't wait to leave because I couldn't wait to call my friend and be like, you
00:13:02guys aren't going to fucking believe when you see this song, like, what, like, what it's become.
00:13:05And you're going to be able to pay your rent for three months and, like, whatever else.
00:13:09What a great day.
00:13:11Yeah.
00:13:12And Kesha and Diane, you both wrote songs from films about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, this feminist icon.
00:13:18The notorious RBG.
00:13:18The notorious RBG.
00:13:19Long may she live.
00:13:20She's wanted to retire forever.
00:13:23No.
00:13:23She's hanging in there for us.
00:13:24She's never going to retire.
00:13:25Don't even say that word in the same sentence.
00:13:27She's hanging in there because she knows we need her.
00:13:30We need her.
00:13:30But tell me about approaching those songs when you know you are writing for a story about such an icon.
00:13:37You can go.
00:13:38Well, okay.
00:13:39You know, I wanted to, you know, write, like, a song that could be her theme, you know, because she
00:13:44is a fighter, so I'll fight.
00:13:46You know, she speaks so softly, but she's so, like, she's louder than anybody, you know, what she has to
00:13:52say and what she stands for, which is us.
00:13:56But when I write a song for this or when I write a song for any movie, I want it
00:14:01to live out, like, obviously, first and foremost, it has to live for the movie and be Ruth Bader Ginsburg's
00:14:06theme song.
00:14:06But I want it to be also outside of the movie where it could be, you could be saying that
00:14:11to your friends.
00:14:11You could be saying it to your kids.
00:14:13It can stand on its own outside.
00:14:14Yeah, like, I'll fight that war for you, like, just that I've got your back, you know, so it's, you
00:14:20know, I don't know if I'm being very articulate, but anyways, I was honored to be able to do, to
00:14:26be a part of this movie.
00:14:28And Kesha, for you, how did you approach it?
00:14:30I've never written a song for a movie before.
00:14:33Oh, wow.
00:14:33So I went and saw the movie on the basis of sex first, and it was kind of daunting because
00:14:39it was supposed to be the end credit song.
00:14:42And after you watch what she's done for women and just everything, I felt even more overwhelmed.
00:14:49And I was like, oh, shit.
00:14:51It was a big task, and I had three hours in the studio, and I left for a tour the
00:14:55next day.
00:14:55So we went in, and I was just, like, crossing my fingers, but, like, kind of worried about it.
00:15:00And then we just, like, fucked about for, like, 20 minutes.
00:15:04And we wanted the song to feel like, because it's a period movie, that it could have been from the
00:15:1250s, could have been from the 70s, or it could be current.
00:15:15It was very much inspired by Bob Dylan, which I think that if you listen to it, it's obvious.
00:15:21And the films sort of show how she had to sort of fight against misogyny on her journey.
00:15:30Were either of you taking inspiration from intolerance you may have experienced in the music industry when you were writing
00:15:36these?
00:15:38Not me.
00:15:43Well, the song we wrote is called Here Comes a Change, so it was kind of more about culture and
00:15:52politics.
00:15:53It was more like we wanted it to be a political song.
00:15:56Did you both meet her?
00:15:57Have you both, like, got to talk to her since they've heard the song?
00:16:00No, I was supposed to meet her, like, there was a screening, like, I met Gloria Steinem.
00:16:04Oh, that's amazing.
00:16:06You know, like, that was cool.
00:16:07So, but she was supposed to come just, like, a couple weeks ago, and, like, in, like, the last minute
00:16:11she didn't show up,
00:16:12because there was, like, she had another event to go to, and we were all pretty bummed.
00:16:15I'm like, no, I'm cool.
00:16:16I met Gloria Steinem, and that's pretty awesome.
00:16:17If either of you does meet her, will you tell her we love her?
00:16:20Oh, yeah.
00:16:20Yeah.
00:16:21Yeah.
00:16:21She's such a superstar.
00:16:23So when you're writing for a film, how does that process work for you?
00:16:27Do you always need to watch the completed film first?
00:16:30Are you starting to think about it before that?
00:16:32Boots, especially for you, since it was your own movie, did that make it harder?
00:16:36Well, what's funny is I actually made two soundtracks, because when I wrote the screenplay,
00:16:42I immediately was, I was working on a soundtrack and finished it, but that, it took a long time to
00:16:48get this film made.
00:16:49So all those songs I had released by then.
00:16:55It was weird, because I had to deal with my, you know, as an artist, I might have wanted to
00:17:01make different songs than what I did.
00:17:07You know, make myself make certain songs.
00:17:36Okay.
00:17:49And what I'm saying?
00:17:50Right.
00:18:05I'm sorry.
00:18:06I know it's in it.
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