- 51 minutes ago
Ericka Hart didn't come to play — she came to liberate. Pleasure Principles dares to ask who pleasure has historically been denied to, and what becomes possible when we finally stop letting those systems win. This conversation is an invitation to explore desire, dismantle shame, and step fully into the kind of fulfillment that was always meant for you. Your body. Your joy. Your rules.
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00:04Well, I'm really, really honored to be talking with Erica and Jamila.
00:08Erica is actually one of my authors.
00:11And Jamila, I've been a long time fan of your writing, your culture criticism.
00:15And so really excited to get into a conversation about pleasure principles.
00:19I would love to really just start and ask you both,
00:22what were you hoping to disrupt when you wrote both of these books?
00:26And then what did you want the reader to get from the final page?
00:30I'll let you start, Erica.
00:31On the final page?
00:32What were you hoping to disrupt?
00:34What conversation?
00:35And what do you hope a reader walks away with on that final page?
00:38Okay, on the final page.
00:39No pressure that I have to have this conversation with my editor, okay?
00:43It's no pressure at all.
00:45I was hoping to disrupt a conversation around pleasure
00:49that would be separate from a discussion on systems of oppression.
00:55So this idea that we can have pleasure without actually having a conversation about how capitalism directly impacts that,
01:03or how transphobia directly impacts that, homophobia, anti-black racism,
01:09when so much of sex has been essentially really forwarded through a very violent structure, right?
01:17And even with that, how do we then relate to ourselves and our bodies?
01:23So I was hoping to disrupt this conversation that pleasure could ever be apolitical.
01:28And then what I hope for the reader to get on that final page,
01:31I hope that they walk away understanding that profoundly,
01:35that you cannot have a pleasurable existence, pleasurable experience,
01:42without actually looking at how systems are directly impacting that reality.
01:47And what is the internal work that's necessary?
01:50Because I think it's not necessarily easy to look at systems outside of you and look at the bigger picture,
01:57but I think it takes a bit more labor to look at yourself
02:01and to see how you are forwarding those systems in some way, shape, or form.
02:08So when I sat down to write my book, I wanted to defend black single mothers.
02:15I wanted to celebrate black single mothers.
02:18I wanted to change the narrative about what I thought to be a very important group of people in our
02:24community.
02:26Since having published the book and traveled the country with the book
02:30and had a lot of conversations with people about the book, I am more radicalized.
02:35I am now convinced that black single mothers are superior beings to most others.
02:41I think that black single mothers are the single most important group of people in the black community
02:47and that we would fall apart without us.
02:50So what I want people to walk away from with this book, and I hope that one day it lives
02:55a life
02:55where I get to write an anniversary edition.
02:57I can add some of these more radical thoughts.
02:59But what I want for people to take from the first iteration of black single mother
03:04is that black single mothers deserve more.
03:08Yeah.
03:09No.
03:10Completely, completely agree.
03:11Honestly, as I sit here, I'm kind of thinking about both of you guys' writing and even my own story.
03:17I'm like, I'm a product of a queer father and a black single mother.
03:20And I'm like, you were saying backstage that not enough people think about black single mothers
03:24and their experience with pleasure.
03:27And you write in your book that we question what's normal and what we can believe to be normal,
03:32what's normal in our sex pleasure, what's normal, or who gets to be desired.
03:36And it's normally not the disabled community.
03:38It's normally not the queer community.
03:40It's normally not black single mothers.
03:42Like, how do we change that tie some?
03:44How do we say, like, actually, black single mothers deserve pleasure
03:47and this is how we get to those pleasure principles in our own lives.
03:51And then for the queer community or disabled community, all the communities you write about,
03:55like, how do we get to saying we can center pleasure more?
03:58And I think it's a lot of decolonization work in both of you guys' stories.
04:03But what's the way we even start this?
04:08I think it's intentional.
04:10It's being intentional about naming the thing, right?
04:13So I've been a black single mother in public for 13 years.
04:17I've shared my experiences, my ups and downs, my co-parenting journey with the world
04:23in hopes that me navigating these things and dealing with these complications
04:28in front of other people would help other people, particularly other black single mothers, on their journey.
04:33And I've been very intentional about, I am the CEO of Mama Gotta Have a Life Too, okay?
04:40I have always prioritized my pleasure.
04:43I have always prioritized my personhood in my motherhood journey.
04:47I did not have to sacrifice everything to mother, even as a single mother.
04:52And I think it's important that we remind ourselves of that and that we do what we need to do
04:56to give ourselves the opportunity to experience pleasure.
04:59So I have a co-parent.
05:01A lot of single mothers don't.
05:02But if there's a single mother in your village who does not have a co-parent,
05:06you need to show up for her.
05:08You need to say, hey, you need a night out.
05:11Let me take the kids.
05:13Hey, you've been working really hard.
05:14I'm just going to send you some money for DoorDash so you don't have to cook tonight.
05:17You have to be a pleasure center for the single mothers in your life.
05:21Yeah.
05:21Yeah.
05:24Y'all should clap for that.
05:28I would say for black, queer, and disabled folks, I think I spent a lot of time questioning my body.
05:36When I was diagnosed with bilateral breast cancer, which I write about in the book, I blamed myself.
05:42I was going to yoga on a regular basis.
05:45I was eating all the foods, all the organic things.
05:49And I was wondering, what did I do wrong for this to be the case?
05:53Not actually looking at living in New York City, ingesting tons of pollution on a regular basis.
05:59The fact that our food systems are literal trash.
06:03I wasn't looking at anything.
06:06The world was telling me to only look at myself, to only critique myself.
06:10Why weren't people desiring me?
06:13What was wrong with me?
06:14Why wasn't I fitting into some sort of image that everybody wanted to be with?
06:19So in writing nasty work, it was important for me to reveal the nasty part of what gets in the
06:27way oftentimes, which is fat phobia, ableism, colonialism, right?
06:33These notions that have been around for longer than all of us that have really set the standard to say
06:40you're supposed to hate yourself, right?
06:42You're supposed to blame yourself for having to even navigate the medical industrial complex.
06:48You're supposed to blame yourself for a literal diagnosis of cancer, right?
06:53And make yourself essentially stressed out, which is one of the number one killers, instead of looking at these systems
06:59and really pushing up against those systems and having pleasure inside of that.
07:04Like, it really brought me great pleasure reading books like Medical Apartheid by Harriet A. Washington and really seeing the
07:11literal roots of medical apartheid to say, oh, it's not actually me, right?
07:17Like, there's a whole structure that's out to essentially kill us, right?
07:22It's never that a system will just have one weapon.
07:26There's multiple weapons.
07:27So being able to call out what those weapons are and name them, I think, is incredibly powerful and also
07:33brings great pleasure.
07:36Now, as you said, I thought about your book, Jamila, and just like, it's also a system to break down
07:40black single motherhood and the black family from eons ago of what that meant and what that looked like.
07:45Let's go to like your books and on the page.
07:47Both of your books are very, very personal, but they both have research, analytics.
07:51You bring in other boys.
07:52Jamila, you bring in over 20 other black single mothers.
07:55For you, you have other queer community, other disabled, even how you were brought up.
08:00How did you decide what you actually put on the page?
08:04What was worth it to keep and what did you need to just get your message across?
08:08Why did you bring other women to the page?
08:09And for you, how did you know what stories to tell?
08:13So the book I sold to Penguin is not the book I turned in.
08:18I wanted to talk to experts.
08:20I wanted to talk to Kimberly Crenshaw who's over there.
08:23I wanted to, you know, do a lot of research and get into the weeds of why black single mothers
08:28are treated the way they are.
08:29I did not intend to talk much about my experience as a child of a single mother, nor being a
08:35single mother myself.
08:36But when it came time for me to sit down and write, I felt that there was no better way
08:41for me to open that conversation than to start with my own experiences.
08:44And I feel that there are parts of my story, my parents journey, my mother's relationship with my father, my
08:51own experience with my child's father and stepmother that are relatable and common and that people will resonate with.
08:58But I also recognize very quickly that are part of my journey that parts of my journey are very privileged.
09:05Right. Like I'm a college educated, able bodied, light skinned woman who's a mother to a little light skinned daughter.
09:13Right. So even without a ring, the did we get treated shady? Absolutely.
09:19Did we get treated the way my friend Tanya Fields, who has five children in the Bronx, how they showed
09:25up as a beautiful dark skinned family of six?
09:28No, absolutely not. Six children. Excuse me.
09:30So I wanted to make sure that while including my own voice, I was talking to other black single mothers
09:37and talking to a diverse set of experiences.
09:40One of my beautiful mothers, Tamika Anderson, is here. We were pregnant at the same time.
09:46She is a connector of people. Single motherhood propelled her into her best and most fully realized self.
09:54And that's something that I realized so many of us had in common.
09:57So whether we had a co-parent or not, whether we had multiple children, whether we were low income, high
10:02income, college trained or not,
10:04single motherhood led us into finding the best version of ourselves.
10:09And I wanted to reflect that to the world and remind people that we are not simply heads of households.
10:15We are heads of state in the black community.
10:22I said there was a lot of pressure that my editor is sitting right here, right? I already said that.
10:26And the question was, well, how much, why did you want to speak about your, your personal life or how
10:31did you know to bring that to the page?
10:32Well, my, my editor told me to bring it to the page where we are.
10:37And I didn't know that you had a queer daddy, so you didn't tell me all your personal stuff.
10:41But anyway, I, as a sex educator, we're trained, especially with working with young people that you don't talk about
10:48yourself, right?
10:50You're working with kids from kindergarten all the way up to the collegiate level.
10:53You leave yourself outside of the room.
10:55So when I would turn in my pages, it was pages and pages of citation from other people's work, citing
11:02like what other people have said about systems of oppression and how it directly impacts sex and pleasure.
11:08And Chelsea would come back to me and say, well, this is great, but where does Erica fit into this?
11:14And, you know, I'd say, I don't, I don't know.
11:16Like I'm a virgin.
11:17Like, I don't know.
11:18I don't know anything.
11:19That was supposed to be a joke, y'all.
11:20That was supposed to be a joke.
11:21I'm not a virgin.
11:22Okay.
11:23We're talking about sex.
11:24We're talking about sex.
11:25Is everybody, can everybody say sex?
11:27Sex.
11:28Louder.
11:29Sex.
11:30Louder.
11:31Sex.
11:32They're still scared.
11:33They're scared of Essence.
11:34They're scared.
11:35I don't know what y'all usually do at Essence.
11:36Yeah.
11:37Okay.
11:37Okay.
11:38But I, you know, I had to look at how I was putting myself in this conversation, right?
11:45I was not born with my fists in the air.
11:47I've had to navigate lots of different scenarios where I questioned myself.
11:53I questioned the world and I even questioned my own identity, right?
11:57I had spent a lot of time as a queer person thinking that my queerness was inside of or
12:04created because I was assaulted as a kid, right?
12:07Or I thought my queerness was something that was just going to be sexual, that it wasn't
12:12something that was actually real and deserving of a relationship or something that was long-term.
12:18I thought it was something that was just temporary.
12:21So actually being able to talk about that and talking about my first relationship and
12:25talking about some of the images that really colored my queerness, like watching the 32nd
12:31clip of Queen Latifah and set it off with her girlfriend, right?
12:35Or watching The Color Purple and seeing Celie kiss Suge and being like, more, right?
12:40Like, you know, I even felt like there, we just honored Lauryn Hill at BET.
12:46And even Lauryn Hill and Tanya Blout, like I played that scene over and over again, mostly
12:51because I love his eyes on the sparrow, but also it felt so intimate to me, right?
12:55It felt so incredible.
12:57Like as a kid, I'm like, can I have that?
12:59But is it wrong?
13:00Because I have no examples of that, right?
13:02So really talking about and exposing how impactful that is to young people and young people actually
13:09having those examples that queerness is real, right?
13:12Is so rooted in a long history of queerophobia.
13:16I mean, we had everyone scream sex, but we know like pleasure is so much.
13:19You both talk about this so much deeper than the physical.
13:22And I think we're living in a time where like pleasure feels hard to access.
13:26Like the news is rough.
13:27The reality of this world is rough in this space feels really safe and really joyful.
13:32But like, how do we take that when we leave this space?
13:34How do you create pleasure beyond like, we're talking about touch and whatnot and sex.
13:38But like, what do we need to do to say, I can center pleasure in the reality of the world
13:43we live in right now?
13:44Like, how are you guys doing it in your real life?
13:45And then how do you think black singer mothers need to do it and need to think about it?
13:49And you talked about community, like, go show up for them.
13:52But you know, what do you say?
13:53Like, how do we take it beyond this moment?
13:54Yeah.
13:56Yeah.
13:57I don't know.
13:58I think I'm on antidepressants.
14:02Shout out.
14:03So that's one way that I keep it.
14:06100%.
14:07But also, I've created a world for me that is so black and so beautiful and I surround
14:12myself with people and things that I care about and I do work that is meaningful to me.
14:17And that is not always easy when you're trying to survive capitalism and white supremacy.
14:23But I think it's a matter of finding the joy where you can.
14:27I know that sounds cliche, but it could simply be having a box of your favorite tea every
14:32week.
14:33Right?
14:33You know that no matter what goes wrong, you can always get that tea because it's $4.
14:38And no matter what, you're going to figure out a way to have that $4 for that tea.
14:42You know, it's just little things that you can do for yourself.
14:45And I think for me, one of the greatest joys of my life is being in community with other
14:51black women.
14:52So like coming here once a year and I live in LA now, so it's different.
14:56It's real different.
14:57Like it's so nice to be surrounded with this much beautiful, loving, supportive black womanhood.
15:05And I think wherever you can find that, it might be in the pages of a book.
15:09It might be on the internet.
15:11You know, and if you're fortunate, it's in person in the company of actual black women.
15:16But finding that love, I think, helps us as black women stay centered.
15:21Yeah.
15:23Of course.
15:24Of course.
15:24I echo those sentiments and being in community with black, queer, disabled and trans folks has 100% saved me.
15:33I look to the ballroom community as a space of just complete freedom and living up against and pushing up
15:42against all of the odds.
15:44I think also, I just recently went to a breast cancer camp and I was surrounded by so many people
15:50that have had breast cancer.
15:52And it was really, really amazing to just be able to talk to them about their experiences and not have
15:58to explain anything.
16:00Right. There's just this knowing that was so enjoyable and wonderful.
16:04I also am a massive lover of trash television.
16:08So I love Love Island, Married at First Sight, all of it that would truly stress anybody out.
16:15But I sit and I analyze it.
16:16And that brings me a great deal of joy, right?
16:19To see what cis heterosexual people are doing and they're up to is something that is just, it's really, it's
16:27incredibly pleasurable.
16:28Not much entertainment.
16:28Yes.
16:29Not much entertainment.
16:31I feel like I'm hearing this conversation around community, around how do you build practices into your day for pleasure.
16:38Is there anything that we really haven't touched upon that, like, you guys use in your own life that, like,
16:44I keep pleasure-centered.
16:45I'm thinking about the conversation being called Pleasure Principles.
16:47Is there a principle you live by that gives you more pleasure?
16:51And vendors, for you to close up, the time is now 4.73.
16:55They're kicking us out.
16:56Last question.
16:58They're kicking us out.
16:59I would say a pleasure principle that I live by is masturbation 100%.
17:05I think I grew up with a great deal of stigma around masturbation that I'm constantly thinking about, you know,
17:12the ways that we push up against this idea that it has to be, pleasure has to come from someone
17:17else, right?
17:18And that's when you'll be able to experience pleasure or be able to be in your body.
17:23But to be able to do that for yourself whenever it makes sense, whenever it feels right, I think is
17:29incredibly powerful for however long, right?
17:32It doesn't have to be a, you know, a foreplay conversation for someone else to come.
17:37But I think there's this, in masturbation, there's a great deal of resistance to, like, compulsory relationships or romance.
17:46And I think it's great to resist that in the process of enjoying your body.
17:53I think for me, just putting a priority on pleasure is my pleasure principle.
17:58Like, I seek pleasure out as much as I can, right?
18:01No matter what I have going on economically, professionally, in terms of my family.
18:06I want that good cup of coffee.
18:08I want to only eat food that I like.
18:10I only want to be around people that I care about.
18:13You know, I don't subject myself to things that make me miserable.
18:16Like, I try to be as pleased as I possibly can considering the state of the world that we're in.
18:23Yes.
18:24Thank you both.
18:25Thank you for this conversation.
18:27Clap for both of them.
18:27I think we're going to do some signings and sell some books right over here.
18:30So, if you want to get in line for a book, please do that.
18:33Thank y'all.
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