- 25 minutes ago
The TV Director Roundtable brings together Ava DuVernay, Ben Stiller, Patty Jenkins, Adam McKay, Jean-Marc Vallée and David Nutter. Hollywood Reporter Roundtables air every Sunday on SundanceTV.
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00:00:08Hi and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter TV directors.
00:00:12I'm Rebecca Ford and I would like to welcome Ben Stiller, Patty Jenkins, Jean-Marc Vallee, Ava DuVernay, David Nutter,
00:00:21Adam McKay.
00:00:22Thank you guys for joining us. We're going to jump right in here.
00:00:25It wasn't that long ago that film directors would have never worked in TV, but that has really changed. Why
00:00:31do you think that is?
00:00:32I always wanted to do television and it was a funny thing because I like having the different options.
00:00:38So right after I'd made Monster, I made a concerted effort to go and direct arrest development because I missed
00:00:44comedy and I wanted to do it.
00:00:46It used to be more limited. There was only so many things available in television and so many things available
00:00:52in film.
00:00:53And now I think finally that has blurred. We're really getting a chance to do what you would do on
00:00:58a feature but longer.
00:00:59Adam, how about for you?
00:01:01When I was a kid, one of the big moments for me was like when Hill Street Blues came on.
00:01:06It was the first time I really saw something that was like funny and dramatic and like different.
00:01:12And that was TV. And there were a lot of shows like that when I was a kid. Even shows
00:01:17like Taxi and Barney Miller that were like really impactful.
00:01:21So I had the same feeling as Patty. I really felt like TV was exciting, that there's a scope to
00:01:28it that I was ready to embrace.
00:01:31And then especially in the last 10 or 15 years when you've seen TV go more towards a film style,
00:01:37but still have that larger narrative arc.
00:01:40It was sort of hard to resist.
00:01:43Ben, how about for you?
00:01:44Back when miniseries came on, back when Roots came on, Shogun, these big events.
00:01:50It was so exciting because it would be four nights in a row and all of a sudden everybody was
00:01:54watching it at the same time.
00:01:55I think, you know, what Adam's saying, it's just changed in terms of the opportunities that are available now.
00:02:00In a lot of ways, it's more accessible as a filmmaker to be able to work within it in areas
00:02:07that, you know, you're not thinking about box office.
00:02:10You're not thinking about how many people are not going to see it possibly because if it doesn't have a
00:02:14big opening weekend.
00:02:15And there's a chance for a lot more people to experience it and take your time and tell the story
00:02:21the way you want to tell it.
00:02:22Eva, tell me what brought you to TV with this and, of course, Queen Sugar.
00:02:26To me, it's really the same thing, you know, for me. I don't think of it as film and television,
00:02:31you know, between, you know, Selma or Queen Sugar or Wrinkle in Time or, you know, or this piece when
00:02:37they see us.
00:02:38It's just my story and I'm trying to find the form that fits that story.
00:02:42And that's the privilege of being able to make work now where we have so many platforms, so many opportunities
00:02:47to reach audience that I'm really thinking about a story.
00:02:50I mean, this story that I made now was originally supposed to be a theatrical piece.
00:02:54And I said, no, I think it's a series because I need more time.
00:02:58And it also has to deal with racial bias and all the stuff that I think people don't really go
00:03:02to the movies for, but they may watch in a roots environment in their own home with their families comfortable.
00:03:08So, the lines are so blurred now that when I think of what we're doing in the TV space, I
00:03:13don't think of the old TV that I watched when I was younger or those event things.
00:03:17I think of it as now, a story that can take any form we decide.
00:03:21Mm-hmm. Jean-Marc, how about for you?
00:03:23I relate to what Eva just said. And every project, whether, you know, it's for TV or film, I see
00:03:33it, I approach it the same way.
00:03:35There's a project, there's a story. How am I going to serve it, to be at its service and find
00:03:41the visual style?
00:03:43Of course, it's longer and the challenge is there and the fun. We have time to develop characters in eight
00:03:49hours instead of two.
00:03:50I mean, we shoot like, it's three feature films. We shoot one, two, three, take a break, four and five,
00:03:58and then, because I've been shooting all of the episodes.
00:04:01So, it's like directing a long, a very long feature film. But it's fun and it's fun also to get
00:04:09to find the cliffhanger at the end of an episode too. Stay tuned.
00:04:17So, let's talk about a little bit about the intensity of these shoots. You know, a lot of the subject
00:04:22matter here is difficult.
00:04:24You're shooting in jail, you're shooting heavy subject matter, you're shooting extremely ambitious, you know, battle scenes or tons of
00:04:30characters.
00:04:30How do you go about making sure to protect the actors and make sure, you know, no one's getting totally
00:04:37worn down?
00:04:38What are you doing as a director to sort of make sure everyone's taken care of? David, how about on
00:04:42a Game of Thrones?
00:04:43Well, I think the most important part of that is information. You know, I think that it's all about rehearsing,
00:04:49it's all about casting.
00:04:50It's all about, you know, I fall back to my hero, Sidney Lumet. It's all about taking actors, taking them
00:04:54into the rooms, talking them through sequences and letting them know what's going to happen.
00:04:58And making sure that plenty of rehearsal time is allotted. This final season of the series was good because we
00:05:05had all the actors get together at the beginning of the season and we all read the script, all the
00:05:09scripts.
00:05:11And then I went to the casting director and said, well, where's my time? Where the actors do I spend
00:05:14time? And she said, yeah, four days.
00:05:16So I went back to my office and I typed up all these Tyrion and Cersei, we'll do this for
00:05:2112, four days. I blocked out every scene, every two hand or every group scene they were all in.
00:05:27Made sure David and Dan were coming by, come by to see some of the sequences and see if they
00:05:30were comfortable with it.
00:05:31I'd tape out locations and tables and the whole thing, whatever that would be. And we basically got a chance
00:05:37to go through the entire three shows that I directed with all the actors.
00:05:41And they would love it because they didn't have to like, think about it on the day. It was a
00:05:45situation, I'd get out to Winterfell Castle and I'd take two pieces of tape from the, or the throw marks
00:05:50from the assistant camera operator.
00:05:52I'd throw them down and Peter would come out and Jamie would come out and they'd get their marks and
00:05:57all the crew would be like, oh great, we don't have to sit around for two hours and figure this
00:06:00out, let's go.
00:06:01So to me, as much information as you can instill, it's very important.
00:06:05Season five, I didn't want to read what happened to Jon Snow in season six, so I never knew how
00:06:11that ended.
00:06:12So I was at a fundraiser with President Obama at Chuck Lorre's house one day and they were all excited
00:06:18I was there because that was when they were showing the last two episodes of season five.
00:06:22And you take the picture with the president, he takes my hand and shakes my hand and says, you didn't
00:06:26kill Jon Snow, did you?
00:06:29And I said, yes sir, he's deader than dead.
00:06:32You kill all my favorite characters.
00:06:34So it was a situation in which I didn't lie to him, but the next season people came back and
00:06:40said that I lied to the president.
00:06:41They took the IRS to come get me, but fortunately they didn't.
00:06:45So are you told the story arcs for everyone through the entire season, even if you're not directing the final
00:06:51couple episodes, you know what happens to every character?
00:06:54Well, for this season of course I wanted to sit down on the read through and see how it ended,
00:07:00but prior to that I wouldn't want to read forward of what I was doing because it would inhibit that.
00:07:06If they needed me to do something to help arc something for a character later on, of course I'd know
00:07:11all of that.
00:07:12But some of the stuff I wouldn't want to know because I think it made it much more clear for
00:07:16me to tell the story from that perspective of the character at the time it happened.
00:07:20Ava and Jean-Marc, tell me about how you worked with the actors when the material was so dark.
00:07:25How did you sort of help them handle that?
00:07:28I've become used to working with actors on the really, really dark stuff and I think, you know, information is
00:07:34important.
00:07:35It's really, since these historical pieces, whether it's Selma or when they see us, making sure that the actor knows
00:07:42what happened before.
00:07:44That knows that what they're doing is steepened in history, that they're playing real people, what the stakes are.
00:07:48That this isn't happening to you, that this happened to someone else, and that you have to tell us what
00:07:53that was, so you've got to go deep.
00:07:55It's really just making sure that they know those stakes and those stakes are supported by, you know, what really
00:08:01happened since these are true stories.
00:08:03And I find that that helps the actor defend themselves against any kind of interior damage in a way because
00:08:10they feel like, you know, I'm representing someone that needs my help here.
00:08:14But then I also do have counselors on the set, particularly with this piece.
00:08:19If anyone wants to talk afterward, if you just want to go cry, if you just want to sit alone,
00:08:23because when you're asking people to go to these depths, you have to take care of them.
00:08:26Did anyone ever use the, like, that's a really interesting idea. I've never heard that before.
00:08:32We had that with our scenes in our last movie that we did. We had to depict torture, the U
00:08:37.S. torturing Iraqis.
00:08:39I've got it, like, I never thought of that before, to actually have that available.
00:08:43Yeah, I didn't do it on my first couple of films that really dealt with it, and I would talk
00:08:47with actors afterward, and they would tell me how hard a time they had.
00:08:51You know, it's hard to let go, but that this had done something, some real damage, and I said, you
00:08:57know, how can we correct this?
00:08:58Just from a place of good health. Yeah.
00:09:01Every project, on Dallas, there was a very damaged person there, the character of Matthew McConaughey.
00:09:10This one, it was about, it's a family story, Sharp Objects, where there's a history of abuse between the woman
00:09:17of the family.
00:09:19And so, of course, it comes from a book, and we loved the book, and it was our Bible.
00:09:26So, how we worked, I mean, Amy and I had a routine in the morning where we had to talk
00:09:31about the day,
00:09:33how she was having two hours of makeup with all these scars, you know, on her body, and talk about
00:09:40the day, and the scenes,
00:09:42and where she is, where she's going, what's the emotional target, objective, goal today.
00:09:51And we love to refer to the book, and to come back to it, and to see and to compare,
00:09:58you know, with Marty,
00:09:59and Marty did with our team of writers, and then go back to the book and the intentions.
00:10:04And it's all about, yeah, trying to be real, be true, and serve the thing, and so, yeah.
00:10:15Mm-hmm.
00:10:17Hey, what's going on?
00:10:20Hey, Mama, what's going on?
00:10:21Stop it.
00:10:22Is she all right?
00:10:23She's scared, she's lashing out.
00:10:26She just saw two of her friends murdered.
00:10:31You were drunk at the King's house.
00:10:35I wasn't.
00:10:38But even if I was, this is Wind Gap, everyone's drunk.
00:10:41Come here now.
00:10:42I was throwing a fit, and you're giving me a lecture about drinking.
00:10:47And Ben, you know, this was, was it actually filmed in a prison?
00:10:51Or the real prison that it was?
00:10:54Yeah, we filmed, we filmed scenes in, actually, at Clinton Correctional,
00:10:58in the yard, the north yard there, which is this huge,
00:11:02it's almost like a little Roman amphitheater built into the side of the mountain.
00:11:06And then we filmed outside of that prison, then we went down to Pittsburgh,
00:11:09and we shot in a real prison in Pittsburgh.
00:11:11The environments for the actors, when you have this much work, too.
00:11:15These things are long, there's just so much.
00:11:17How do you, how do you tackle all this?
00:11:19And you have to kind of break it down, I think, just, you know, just scene by scene.
00:11:24And take the pressure off of, like, we're gonna, you know, tell this whole long story, just do it bit
00:11:29by bit.
00:11:29But having to shoot it like a movie, it's literally block shooting.
00:11:33So you're shooting everything that happens in one location for six episodes.
00:11:37It's confusing for the production people, but I think even harder for the actors, because they have to place themselves
00:11:42where they are in the story.
00:11:43So I think it's just like breaking it down bit by bit.
00:11:46And then just creating an environment where you, everybody feels safe to take chances and to figure it out together
00:11:54and to have a common.
00:11:55So I think what you're talking about doing with Amy, just having a sort of common idea of what you're
00:11:59going for.
00:11:59You know, I find when you work with great actors, they're gonna bring so much.
00:12:03They just bring so much to you.
00:12:04They're gonna have ideas that you wouldn't have had.
00:12:06I like to try to let them have the space to do their thing and see what they bring instinctually
00:12:11to it.
00:12:12And being in the real locations and all that really, I think, really helps.
00:12:15You know, as a director, you're obviously making a million decisions a day, and you are the leader of this
00:12:20team.
00:12:21What do you do when you feel unsure?
00:12:23Have you ever stepped onto a project and thought, I'm not ready for this, and how did you deal with
00:12:28that?
00:12:28Are you guys always sure on every project?
00:12:30I'm unsure every time.
00:12:32I get a script, you're never sure.
00:12:34Yeah.
00:12:35And if you're not sure, I guess you're gonna fake it until you are sure, I guess.
00:12:39Then respect.
00:12:40Yeah.
00:12:41I always find like yelling at people works really.
00:12:45To make me feel stronger and better, even if it's over nothing.
00:12:51So I'll chastise people, scream at them, and then I start to feel powerful and I get, no, no.
00:12:56I think David's answer is perfect.
00:12:59I think you should be walking on set with a certain degree of uncertainty.
00:13:03I think that's actually a healthy part of the process.
00:13:06That nothing can ever replicate that feeling of being on that set with these incredible actors emotionally stated in this
00:13:15scene.
00:13:16And to acknowledge the fact that I don't know exactly what's gonna happen in this situation.
00:13:21I think it's like, that's the reason we probably all do this, is that discovery is so cool.
00:13:27To me, the challenge is what the actors have to deal with.
00:13:30I just wanted to give them as much of an opportunity to have an environment, depending on what the situation
00:13:35is.
00:13:35Whatever's gonna help them be okay.
00:13:38And every actor is different.
00:13:40Whether it's having less people around or, you know.
00:13:42I think that's so important, because for me, I wanna make sure that they're as pleased with it as they
00:13:46can be.
00:13:48Because I get to go home and play with all the toys and, you know, then edit and fix.
00:13:52And, you know, I get to spend more time with whatever we've done on the day.
00:13:56I can't imagine being an actor.
00:13:58I think they're so brave.
00:13:59You know, it's their face.
00:14:01It's their face.
00:14:02It's their body.
00:14:03It's their memories.
00:14:04It's their, the blood pumping through their veins that they're giving to this.
00:14:09And then they literally have to say, okay, take care of all that that I did and hope it turns
00:14:14out okay.
00:14:14And they can't touch it again.
00:14:16Whenever an actor says one more, I'd be like, two more.
00:14:19Okay, let's just really make sure we get this.
00:14:22Because I think the actor's instincts is something to be respected.
00:14:27But also, I always just think, gosh, they have to walk away from this thing.
00:14:30And trust me, I can never do it.
00:14:34I can never do it.
00:14:35I'm too controlled.
00:14:36No, me too.
00:14:37You know what I mean?
00:14:38I can never do it.
00:14:39I feel the same way.
00:14:39I'm like, oh, I'm good as long as I can go and organize it all and be like, now I'm
00:14:44ready.
00:14:44You know?
00:14:45Right, right.
00:14:45Not just on the fly.
00:14:47I can never.
00:14:47That's so true.
00:14:48Like, I've done small parts.
00:14:50I've given myself like two lines.
00:14:53And it's just misery.
00:14:54You're like, these actors have the hardest job ever.
00:14:59Yeah.
00:14:59Because there is like such a ego death that goes into acting.
00:15:03You're just like, I trust.
00:15:05It's all in your hands.
00:15:06And with Succession, we had that where there were, that's why I was interested when you were talking about the
00:15:12idea of therapists on set.
00:15:14Because when you get to that real dark, personal place, which we had Jeremy Strong, we had Brian Cox, we're
00:15:22getting into those kinds of areas.
00:15:23Because you feel like a responsibility.
00:15:26You feel like, Ben was kind of talking about this, that you have to be a good steward of the
00:15:32set.
00:15:34And yeah, the idea of putting yourself out there that emotionally raw, it's kind of an amazing thing.
00:15:40I feel like a humility whenever I watch it happen.
00:15:43Yeah.
00:15:44You know, this year on Game of Thrones, and I've had this before, the show's people's deaths, their last scene.
00:15:50And to me, that's such an important thing is that making sure that they feel comfortable with it.
00:15:55And I would always go to them and let them know, this is the anger or this is the whatever
00:16:00we're doing.
00:16:01And I'll keep doing it until you feel comfortable.
00:16:04Because it's too important.
00:16:06Because they have to walk away feeling that they contribute to that.
00:16:08And I heard a story once that acting is standing in front of a crowd, naked and turning around very
00:16:14slowly.
00:16:16And it really is that.
00:16:18And it's a situation, if they fall, you have to be there to catch them.
00:16:20You know, because so much of the time anymore, there's so many monitors and so many layers between actors and
00:16:27directors and so forth.
00:16:28And I always like to get up there as close as possible so that they know that with everything that's
00:16:33going on, they're still the center.
00:16:35Because without them, they're nothing.
00:16:38Not so long ago, the Starks and the Karstarks were slaughtering each other on the battlefield.
00:16:42Jon Snow brought peace to the houses.
00:16:44And our queen is grateful.
00:16:46Her gratitude is lovely, but that's not my point.
00:16:49The Northmen are loyal to Jon Snow, not to her.
00:16:53They don't know her.
00:16:54The free folk don't know her.
00:16:56I've been up here a while, and I'm telling you, they're stubborn as goats.
00:17:01You want their loyalty?
00:17:02You have to earn it.
00:17:06I think it's part of the job to feel unsure.
00:17:09The more I work and I feel more confident about my tools and the craft and how I'm going to
00:17:17shoot.
00:17:18I accept to be creative on the day.
00:17:21Before, I needed to shot list, storyboard, and be creative before the day.
00:17:29But now, I don't shot list.
00:17:32I don't storyboard.
00:17:33I know I'm going to figure it out with the actors and the crew.
00:17:37I feel unsure sometimes, and okay.
00:17:40But I wonder if you guys, when you're doing the big films with Wonder Woman and Game of Thrones,
00:17:46you have to prepare, I guess, and do the shot list for it.
00:17:50Yeah.
00:17:51Yeah, you do.
00:17:51But still, there's some room.
00:17:53For sure.
00:17:54I do it 100% of the time, but I don't do what I shot list plenty.
00:17:58You know?
00:17:59So I always have to have a plan more because of forgetting a shot than anything else.
00:18:03More because I'm like, oh, that shot, ugh, that shot of the keyhole.
00:18:06I forgot, you know.
00:18:07It's like, because you get caught up, but performance-wise.
00:18:10Yeah.
00:18:11I always have a plan, but you always see what's happening.
00:18:14Yeah, of course.
00:18:14And so you know you have cover, but then you're ready when you see what's happening.
00:18:18Yeah, but it's a funny thing about the big movies.
00:18:20Because then you're shooting one scene over 10 days.
00:18:23So you have to know what shot you didn't get if it's an action thing.
00:18:26Did you really have scenes in Wonder Woman that took 10 days?
00:18:30Oh, more.
00:18:30Are you serious?
00:18:32Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:18:32Wow.
00:18:32Oh, things like the beach battle and stuff, that's three weeks.
00:18:35Oh, that was crazy.
00:18:35Three weeks, you know.
00:18:36And that's what I'm saying.
00:18:37That stuff is actually lunatic, too, because not only are you shot listing, but there were
00:18:42periods of time in the middle of making the film where I was like, please don't die.
00:18:45Just please.
00:18:46Because I was the only person who now knew how, like, that compromise I made up for with
00:18:51that compromise.
00:18:53There's no way I can explain to anybody how that's all going to fit together, because
00:18:56this changed, and so I did that.
00:18:58So you're like, oh, God, I just, let me just get this whole thing together and pass it
00:19:03on to somebody.
00:19:04That's the only reason you didn't want to die?
00:19:06There are other reasons, but it's a new version of please don't die.
00:19:09There was a period of time where I was on a flight with one of my producers, and it was
00:19:14three-quarters of the way through the movie, and I was like, if, and we had really bad
00:19:19turbulence, and I emailed.
00:19:20I was like, if the plane goes down, just know I'm not okay with that situation.
00:19:27Like, please.
00:19:27Take three.
00:19:28That's the right.
00:19:29Yes, exactly.
00:19:30Exactly.
00:19:31Yeah.
00:19:31That's someone who loves filmmaking.
00:19:33First thought goes towards that.
00:19:36Yes.
00:19:36Of course.
00:19:37Not, you know.
00:19:38You know that Adidas commercial was shot?
00:19:40Just please, make sure.
00:19:41Use the wide.
00:19:43That's really funny.
00:19:49I'm curious if you can give me an example of a time an actor brought up an idea on your
00:19:54project that maybe you weren't really into at first and then went with, and it ended up
00:19:59being sort of the right choice that you hadn't thought of.
00:20:02I've heard hundreds of times.
00:20:03So many times.
00:20:05Like a million.
00:20:06I think that's actually, I feel like that's actually a part of the normal system.
00:20:10I learned in, over the years, a couple of things.
00:20:13One is never note the actors right away, because sometimes they haven't realized.
00:20:17Like, they came in with something and, fuck, they meant it, didn't do it.
00:20:21So give them a chance to see what they were trying to do.
00:20:23But then, like, I've definitely learned, particularly with actors, unless there's a really clear reason,
00:20:28like you can't give away that spoiler with that line.
00:20:32I always try it, and it's a constant collaboration.
00:20:35It's constantly something I didn't think of.
00:20:38And then you're seeing, oh, okay, cool.
00:20:40Oh, I see what you're, yeah, you're right.
00:20:41That's a way I wasn't looking at it.
00:20:44You know, being an actor also, you know, and when you work with many different directors,
00:20:50sometimes actors will make a choice that they'll stick with.
00:20:54I'm saying this from my own experience, because you're, because you feel like that, you feel that's the right choice,
00:20:59and you don't want to give the director any other choice to cut to.
00:21:03And I find, as a director, when an actor does that to me, it drives me crazy, because I know
00:21:08what they're doing.
00:21:09And, you know, sometimes it's a discussion, and sometimes it's just like, yeah, that's how I feel about what that
00:21:15choice is.
00:21:16If it doesn't jive with what your idea is, that can be where you, I think, have to, you know,
00:21:21sometimes have those creative discussions.
00:21:23And, you know, at the end of the day, you have to feel as a director that you have the
00:21:28choices that you want.
00:21:29I mean, I'm not one who, like, needs to have a million different choices for something.
00:21:33And I do feel like when you see something, you go, that feels right, I'm happy to go with it.
00:21:38It can be tough. It can be tough.
00:21:40And you have to then trust that and see how far you want to go in terms of the discussion
00:21:44with the actor to get it, to have another way to go.
00:21:50And when it comes to improv, I know Succession uses quite a bit of that.
00:21:54Was there a moment that was improvised day of that you're especially proud of or that you especially loved?
00:22:00Yeah, I think it goes back to what we've all been talking about, that, you know, when you have your
00:22:06ideas for how scenes go, you want the actor to play it a certain way.
00:22:11I always get a little itchy when everything's lining up too nicely.
00:22:14I want to make sure there are some mistakes flowing around.
00:22:18So I always jokingly say on the best day of my life, I was right like 68% of the
00:22:23time.
00:22:25So I always throw improv in there to make sure that there's some collisions and accidents.
00:22:31And it was funny with this cast because we usually, when I cast people, I make sure I tell them,
00:22:38you know, you're okay with improv.
00:22:39I've worked with Ben before as an actor. We all know how that goes.
00:22:43And, but in this case, we, you know, we had some classically trained actors who just looked me straight in
00:22:49the eyes and told me there's no way I'm improvising.
00:22:53And sure enough on the day we would get there and I would yell out, hey, try this. And they
00:22:58would go, no.
00:23:00And the whole crew would get still for a second and I would just say, we're rolling. You might as
00:23:06well.
00:23:06And then they would start to do it. And of course they would fall in love with it.
00:23:09I mean, every actor does. So yeah, there's a family dinner scene.
00:23:13That's the birthday for Logan Roy. And that's entirely improvised.
00:23:18I gave everyone their own conversation they were going to have.
00:23:21And I just did the dolly track around the table and we just circled the table for a full mag
00:23:26and did it like, you know, three times in a row.
00:23:28And they were incredible.
00:23:30Several of these stories are based on real stories from real life.
00:23:35Ava, Ben, Patty, I'm curious, how much are the real people weighing on you when you're making a television show
00:23:44like this?
00:23:45They weigh on me a lot.
00:23:48However, at a certain point, once you really are close with the spirit of who they are and what they're,
00:23:56what's important,
00:23:57you have to just know that you're doing your best. Like you can't let it, let it, you know, you
00:24:02have to make sure that you're, you're centered and on the right, you know, spot and being respectful.
00:24:07And then I think from there, you, you and the actors have to say like, we have to also be
00:24:13alive in this moment, as long as we're never forgetting that and becoming disrespectful.
00:24:17But I think about it a lot. And it's, and I also find that the responsibility is something I take
00:24:23super seriously at the script and the planning level and casting and all of those things.
00:24:28Ben, I know Tilly, who's played by Patricia Arquette, had actually spoken out that she didn't think her portrayal was
00:24:34accurate.
00:24:35That is correct.
00:24:36How do you, how do you deal with hearing something like that?
00:24:39I felt okay with it because I felt confident in the research that we did. I don't know what really
00:24:45happened in certain, you know, parts of the story. And it's not a documentary. This, you know, we weren't making
00:24:52a documentary, but I also was pretty, I think, obsessive about trying to get as much of the real story
00:25:00in there as possible.
00:25:01And, and I had to, at a certain point, make my own judgment about certain things that happened that I
00:25:07felt, that I personally felt was the way it went. It might not be, but I felt secure in that
00:25:12because I felt like I'd done enough research to feel like this is what I thought it would be.
00:25:16And I, you know, and I talked to a lot of people who were a part of that story and
00:25:22people who worked at the prison and you kind of have to take all of that information, sort of synthesize
00:25:28it and then make your own choices.
00:25:31And then you do have to then make sure that it's actually something that the actors can act and make,
00:25:38the actors have to make choices about motivations. And, you know, the, for me, the goal was to humanize the
00:25:42characters.
00:25:43They're all people who, in this story, who kind of have done pretty bad things. And I would just want
00:25:49to show them as people and not try to apologize for them in any way, but also try to somehow
00:25:55make them accessible as human beings, because we're all human beings.
00:25:59And I think that's why people are interested in these stories, because they are showing us part of ourselves.
00:26:04And Ava, I know the real men were, like, participated in your story, but so was there any discussion with
00:26:13them about something they didn't want to show or didn't want to be part of this story or were they
00:26:17completely open?
00:26:18They were completely open and it was imperative to me that they be happy with this. I told them at
00:26:22the beginning that there was nothing that I was going to not include if I found it and wanted to
00:26:27make sure that they were good with that before we started and they all agreed to that.
00:26:30They were on set, you know, they read the scripts before. One told me the other day, I read the
00:26:35script and you had told me, you know, you were going to do what you wanted to do, so I
00:26:39didn't know that I could say something after I read the script.
00:26:43I was like, yeah, no, you could have, but you didn't, so we shot that piece. But no, they were
00:26:49there and, you know, at one point, the actors started to say, is my guy going to be here? Like,
00:26:54they wanted them there.
00:26:55They were so much a part of the fabric of this. And that's how the piece was built. You know,
00:27:00it was built to be their voice. For 30 years, the Central Park Five were never heard from. Their confessions
00:27:06were coerced.
00:27:07The press coverage was skewed and the injustice that happened to them was really that they were silenced. And so
00:27:15this whole piece, you know, I did it to give them voice. So I had to honor that at every
00:27:19turn.
00:27:19The biggest reward for me, there's nothing that can happen with this piece because I sat in a room with
00:27:26those men. I've been working on this since 2015. I sat in the room with these men. They wept. They
00:27:31embraced one another.
00:27:32They had a cathartic experience watching all of their stories because they'd been so mired in their own personal story.
00:27:40But when they saw their brother's stories, the experience of being in that small screening room with them, I remember
00:27:46thinking, what else?
00:27:47I mean, what else is there than this? So, you know, much different than Selma, where you're like, I want
00:27:54to get the spirit of these people right. Like, I can't. I'm not going to be able to get every
00:27:57head turn and everything right. But from my research, this is what it feels good to do.
00:28:05This was so different. This was I was, you know, on pins and needles about making sure that this was
00:28:11actually their experience and that they were pleased with it.
00:28:14Mm hmm. All of these projects are so ambitious. Tell me about the biggest fight you had to get what
00:28:20you needed.
00:28:20Through my years of doing television and film, I have definitely felt a part of the people who were trying
00:28:28to scale it up and have those conversations with people who haven't necessarily done that before and sort of saying,
00:28:33yeah, no, no, we're we're doing this big shot like this does matter.
00:28:37We're not just doing a cut to stolen B camera exterior house. We're spending the time and doing these bigger
00:28:43things.
00:28:44So I feel like nowadays we're we're really so much closer to people understanding that.
00:28:49Mm hmm. David, how about for you? Do you have to fight? Did you have to fight for anything you
00:28:53really needed to to make your episodes of this season?
00:28:56For Game of Thrones, as far as fighting is concerned, it was it's been a great experience not to have
00:29:04to do that, which is fun and also, too, I like limitations sometimes because limitations helps me build the world
00:29:10because we have no limitations, then you've got nothing to grab onto.
00:29:13I like to have limitations. And to me, they'll say, you have you can do this, this and this. And
00:29:17then I say, OK, how do I play in that sandbox? I can figure out how to do that in
00:29:21that way.
00:29:21I mean, you change something or adjust here or let's spend a little more money here. Let's spend more time
00:29:26here. This seems more important. This isn't as important. I can do this in less shots or whatever that may
00:29:31be.
00:29:31So you're always balancing that no matter what you're doing. I think for me, just on our project, it was
00:29:36getting to shoot up in the at the real prison because, you know, for budget, it's just always hard to
00:29:40go sometimes to the actual places.
00:29:43And for us to have access to the prison, it was in such a unique location nestled inside of the
00:29:49Adirondack Mountains.
00:29:50It was almost impossible to recreate. And it was part of the story because these guys escaped and they went
00:29:55out into the mountains.
00:29:56So as we were literally six weeks away from shooting and we didn't have a location secure to be able
00:30:02to shoot up there.
00:30:02And so when we finally got that, that was I mean, that was that was the biggest fight. Besides, there's
00:30:07always budget, you know, budget discussions.
00:30:10But to be able to have access to that place and then for them to cooperate with us and then
00:30:17they gave us, you know, we were allowed to go inside the prison and then to have people who worked
00:30:21at the prison be technical advisers was just to me was the most valuable thing.
00:30:26Did you learn anything new about sort of the prison environment that was sort of an interesting wake up call?
00:30:32I mean, I learned from 13th a lot, you know, how bad it is and to experience it for real
00:30:39to feel the heaviness of it to me was the biggest thing, I think.
00:30:42You know, sometimes the tone of something you're making, you don't know what it's going to be until you're doing
00:30:46it.
00:30:47I don't know. Like, Adam, I feel like you kind of create tone in such an amazing way.
00:30:51You know, I didn't know what it was going to be. But then when I went into the real prison
00:30:54and walked through there, it was so heavy.
00:30:57It just was like, there's no way this can be funny.
00:31:00And I mean, there could be ironic humor at times, but like, this is not funny to me.
00:31:06And I can understand why no matter who you are, you want to get out of here.
00:31:09On sharp objects and on every project, there's always fights.
00:31:13But I always, on every project now, I fight for a number of days of shooting and nine to six.
00:31:19I don't want to shoot before 9 a.m.
00:31:21I'm 56. I'm tired.
00:31:23Wow.
00:31:24Can I come work on horses?
00:31:25Didn't even know that was possible.
00:31:27Can I?
00:31:27I start at 9 a.m.
00:31:29This is so European.
00:31:31Oh my God, yeah.
00:31:32You're from Montreal, right?
00:31:34It's got to be a 9 a.m. call on the call sheet.
00:31:37If it's about 9, I'm like, I'm sorry.
00:31:40Wow.
00:31:40But yeah, I'm a responsible filmmaker and we finish at six and I fight for a music budget.
00:31:48This is the nature of the storytelling, putting the music in the center of the stories and on sharp objects.
00:31:56So it was this music budget and we fought for Led Zeppelin, for Led Zeppelin to become the sound of
00:32:02sharp objects.
00:32:04And then we fought for the house to have a very specific house that became almost a character.
00:32:12And Amy needed to shoot in L.A.
00:32:15So we found the house in Norton, California.
00:32:18It was supposed to, it was taking place in the south, in Missouri.
00:32:24So we didn't find one over there.
00:32:26We built the house, the interior of the house with the porch on stage in L.A.
00:32:31And we shot the exterior scenes in Norton, California.
00:32:36So that was a big expense.
00:32:40But HBO are such great partners, great partners.
00:32:44And they're aiming for quality and they know when it's time to take a decision.
00:32:52And all right, let's put money there and there.
00:32:55Game of Thrones is 10 hour days.
00:32:57Straight through.
00:32:58No lunch.
00:32:59Because that's your, yeah, European.
00:33:00No lunch.
00:33:01Yeah, we do that too.
00:33:02But of course, poor people and White Walkers and things, they'd have to start much, much earlier.
00:33:06Yeah, yeah.
00:33:07To get through their makeup and so forth.
00:33:09Succession was 20 hour days.
00:33:12No lunch.
00:33:13No lunch.
00:33:14No lunch.
00:33:14Just making it up.
00:33:16I'd go to jail if we did that.
00:33:19No, the only, I mean, you're totally right about HBO.
00:33:22They're so incredible with that because there would have been fights normally.
00:33:27And the big one for us was film.
00:33:29Like we really wanted film.
00:33:31We needed that warmth for this story of these people that live in such rarefied air.
00:33:36There was almost no fight.
00:33:38I mean, Casey was incredible too with the casting.
00:33:40He's like, you don't have to cast stars in the roles.
00:33:43Just cast who's right.
00:33:46So mostly, I ended up fighting for Game of Thrones.
00:33:50I was like, they need more money.
00:33:54Give them a lunch break.
00:33:58Hattie, you obviously brought Chris Pine back from Wonder Woman for I Am the Night.
00:34:02Yeah.
00:34:03What is it about him that you wanted to work with him again?
00:34:06And sort of in general, what makes you have a particularly strong bond with a certain actor like that?
00:34:11I've had it happen with several actors who you really, you get up to speed and you really know that
00:34:17person.
00:34:17So you see this incredible skill set that they're capable.
00:34:20You can spin them this way and that's fun, spin them that way.
00:34:23You know, Chris and I definitely have that.
00:34:25And I also think that he has a bunch of dimensions to him that I haven't quite seen him get
00:34:30to explore.
00:34:30I mean, like now at this point, I'm feeling like I just want to keep working with so many of
00:34:35the same actors because it is so fun.
00:34:36Like I had Connie Nielsen in it, too.
00:34:38And you just spin her in a whole other direction and watch this whole other side of their personality come
00:34:42out.
00:34:43Now you have a shorthand.
00:34:45I love that.
00:34:46I love working with the same people.
00:34:48And it sounded like you said you didn't get them?
00:34:50Yeah, I did.
00:34:51I didn't get them.
00:34:52I didn't get the shorthand.
00:34:53The camera got smashed.
00:34:59You stupid son of a bitch.
00:35:01You clown.
00:35:03You get a new camera and you go back there, idiot.
00:35:07You stupid son of a bitch.
00:35:08Sal, Sal, shut up.
00:35:09Shut up.
00:35:10Just shut up.
00:35:10Shut up.
00:35:11I got the pictures.
00:35:13I was kidding.
00:35:14I'm bringing them in.
00:35:15Here I come.
00:35:16I was kidding.
00:35:18Ava, I know you've brought Storm Reid on a few projects now.
00:35:22What is it about certain actors that creates that?
00:35:25When you get to a place where you barely have to say what it is that you're doing or when
00:35:30you say it and they just know it right there.
00:35:33I have it with David Oyelowo.
00:35:34I have it with Storm Reid.
00:35:35And I have it with Darrell Jerome, who plays Corey Wise in this, who has a whole episode just dedicated
00:35:40to his performance in the prison.
00:35:42I really, you know, work hard to have great relationships with all of the actors.
00:35:47In this piece, there were 117 significant speaking parts.
00:35:51That was my fight.
00:35:52I thought, I think Netflix was like, I thought it was Central Park 5.
00:35:55How did we, what is happening here?
00:35:59I lied on you too.
00:36:07Yeah.
00:36:11Me too.
00:36:13I'm sorry, man.
00:36:24They made us lie.
00:36:27Right?
00:36:30There's some where you just get to a place where it's a nod of the head or you just can
00:36:34say, and they know what you're talking about.
00:36:36That kind of thing becomes really comfortable and allows you to think about a lot of other things as opposed
00:36:40to having to kind of mold so carefully.
00:36:43So I think we're almost all on from the school less is more and sometimes, you know, actors and on
00:36:49Dallas Barriers Club, when Matthew and Jared, you know, they were doing more is more.
00:36:54And I was asking them, there's too much movement, you know, the hat, the cigarette, the sitting, the scratching, I
00:37:04don't know where to look, guys, you know, you know.
00:37:07And Matthew was telling me, well, so Mark, Texas is movement, so Mark, you know, and it's stillness.
00:37:13I don't know where to look, you know, and it's funny how, you know, and then the first days of
00:37:19shooting, they were so big and giant performances.
00:37:22And so the DP and I, we were like, let's move, let's move away.
00:37:27I don't want to be close to them.
00:37:29Why would you know?
00:37:31And we started, we started, we found the distance, and then they got it.
00:37:35Matthew got it, so he started to walk and come close to the camera.
00:37:39Of course.
00:37:43Then it's crazy how we, it becomes a dance, and we get creative on the day.
00:37:51It's a small film, indie film, not a lot of money, and we found the thing, and then, okay, we
00:37:57found our way of working together, and then the next thing comes, pan.
00:38:02And, you know, we respect each other, but we try to, you know, until after a week, bang, it happened,
00:38:11you know.
00:38:13All this to say with actors sometimes, you know, it's great, but, and, and, and, and, and finally, they proved
00:38:22me wrong.
00:38:22The more is more approach was goddamn right for this film.
00:38:27They're, you know, and it was, and my God, yeah.
00:38:31Well, it's like sinking up.
00:38:47And because I had done another movie with him, I was able to tell him, like, Jeremy, we're going to
00:38:51do one take on this.
00:38:52I'm going to put two.
00:39:05I'm going to put three.
00:39:31I'm going to put two.
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