- 13 minutes ago
Anna Boden, Deborah Chow, Jon M. Chu, Alex Garland, Janet Mock & Jonathan Nola
joined The Hollywood Reporter to talk about their respected TV series.
joined The Hollywood Reporter to talk about their respected TV series.
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Short filmTranscript
00:00:07Hi, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter TV Directors.
00:00:12I'm Rebecca Ford, and I'd like to welcome Deborah Chow, Jonathan Nolan, Janet Mock, Alex Garland, John Ev Chiu, and
00:00:22Anna Bowden.
00:00:22Thank you guys so much for joining us today.
00:00:24We just need to, you know, acknowledge the unprecedented times we're in, you know, between the coronavirus and the outcry
00:00:34about social injustice.
00:00:37It's a really unique time, and I'm curious how this current time is affecting you creatively.
00:00:44As a creator, how do you deal with the weight of what's going on in the world?
00:00:49Yes, usually this is a moment in which I would be able to gently feel my wife patting my shoulder
00:00:54and saying, shut the fuck up.
00:00:58I think it's a fascinating, terrifying, enthralling moment.
00:01:03I mean, part of what we were doing in the last season of Westworld was kind of telling a story
00:01:07about questioning assumptions about the way society is structured, about the way the world, so many things that we take
00:01:14for granted.
00:01:15And this is a moment in which it's a revelatory moment.
00:01:18It's a moment in which you're realizing that for many people, the world is not what you experience.
00:01:25I think it's a moment to listen, but also a moment to speak up.
00:01:31I mean, I've been kind of fascinated for many years with the structure of our society, the way that it
00:01:37works, and we've talked a little bit about this.
00:01:39We have the luxury in a science fiction show where you get to talk at a certain remove.
00:01:44But I think this is a moment in which you have to listen carefully and question assumptions.
00:01:51I think part of the problem beyond just racism, which there is more of in this country, in this world,
00:01:59I think that many of us understood.
00:02:02I think one of the other problems that we're beginning to realize is a certain complacency amongst people who might
00:02:07not think of themselves as racist.
00:02:09A complacency in saying, oh, well, I've done my part.
00:02:13I've done a little bit.
00:02:15And it's clear the little bit is not enough.
00:02:19So it feels like there's a moment here to take stock of the things we're all doing as people and
00:02:24as an industry and say the depth of the problem is much more significant.
00:02:31I think for a lot of people, they imagine the civil rights movement was the end of racism in this
00:02:34country.
00:02:35That's clearly not the case.
00:02:37Clearly not the case in our industry.
00:02:39We congratulate ourselves on our show that we have a good amount of diversity in front of the camera.
00:02:47Do we have enough behind the camera?
00:02:48That's a big problem.
00:02:50So I think it's a moment for everyone to realize that where they thought the incremental things they were doing
00:02:54were enough, it's not enough.
00:02:55Anything even beyond sort of our jobs to our own personal lives, talking to our families.
00:03:03So, you know, we all a lot of us have little children and explaining to them from the ground up
00:03:09what what is happening and what that means.
00:03:12Talking to my parents, talking to my uncles and aunts to help them understand, you know, we were here in
00:03:17West Hollywood when when, you know, police cars are being burned next to us.
00:03:23And we're but also the the protest was around us and that energy.
00:03:27And and so we had to talk about all those things.
00:03:30And as and I think as artists, as we all are, we're very sensitive to where we are as human
00:03:36beings, too.
00:03:36And so I think there's process.
00:03:38There's so many different places to process of what I what are we actually capable of doing?
00:03:44What can I be doing amplifying or doing stuff in my work or, you know, beyond that?
00:03:51And so it was I think it's been a long process of thinking about really heavy on my on I
00:03:56think all I'm sure on all our hearts.
00:03:57But I think the power of story and what we do shows how important it is to make the stories
00:04:05that that share our experiences with others and share other experiences as well.
00:04:11I just think that that really impacted me.
00:04:13That's right. The things that we do do are very important to expose people to to all the stuff.
00:04:19And also the the pandemic itself of allowing us to confront these things trapped in the house with our families,
00:04:28with our friends, with ourselves, I think really forces as artists to do that.
00:04:32And we're not done. It's just we're just we're literally in the middle.
00:04:35I think that's why Joan and I sort of talk and we're it's a lot of stuff because we're processing
00:04:40and we're in the middle of it.
00:04:41You know, for me, it's interesting because when we first, you know, got shut down on season three of Pose
00:04:48when I was directing the premiere, I was like, OK, good.
00:04:52I can take a breath. I can go home for three weeks.
00:04:54You know, we thought I'm a cute little three weeks and incubate and do some stuff, finish scripts, you know,
00:04:59polish things off.
00:05:00And then it just got darker and darker and darker.
00:05:03You know, we shoot our show at Silver Cup North in the Bronx and the Bronx in New York City
00:05:09is literally the epicenter for the United States of the the Corona crisis.
00:05:15And so we knew that it was the layered nature of these people living in projects and housing projects, you
00:05:22know, largely black and brown folk who are not getting attention or care, who whose facilities are not being cleaned.
00:05:30And so I I felt this stuff coming back up, you know, at first I thought it was like, oh,
00:05:35we're all connected.
00:05:36And this is, you know, and then you see the disparities that happen in certain communities. Right.
00:05:41So, you know, the first couple of weeks, I felt a deep sense of like creative energy.
00:05:45And then the news headlines were kind of hitting more and more and more about who was being, you know,
00:05:51disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus.
00:05:53And I found myself as an artist and a creative not being able to concentrate on the actual work.
00:06:00And I found myself being called to pay more attention to the news, to Twitter, as John was saying, amplifying,
00:06:07you know, the organizers on the ground.
00:06:09And of course, George Floyd happens and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and Tony McDade.
00:06:17And then, of course, you know, black trans women being killed and all of this stuff is bubbling up in
00:06:22my various communities.
00:06:24And so I felt called to speak out, of course, as someone who, you know, is seen as a representative
00:06:30of a community in this strange way as a role model that I didn't ask for.
00:06:33But it's a responsibility and a duty that I must do. And, you know, when I look at the work
00:06:38that I've done on Pose and on Hollywood,
00:06:41oftentimes it's about outsiders looking in, coming in and wanting to change systems, surviving and having resilience despite these systems
00:06:50pushing them down.
00:06:51And so for me, I don't think that it's going to change my work.
00:06:54I think it's just a more urgent call to get to work and to use the privileges and the access
00:07:00that I do have in the institution of Hollywood
00:07:03to hopefully push for greater change and find more, you know, co-conspirators to jump in and help us do
00:07:10some work on the ground.
00:07:11I have to admit that, you know, I haven't even begun to understand how this time is really affecting me
00:07:19creatively.
00:07:19I haven't been focusing my energy very much in that area. And mostly I moved to New York.
00:07:27I was in the middle of a move to New York in March, nine months pregnant with a five year
00:07:31old.
00:07:32And really the first part of the time was just like trying to figure out how to have a baby
00:07:37during a pandemic, you know,
00:07:39trying to get myself situated in a house where I could really, you know, shelter in place.
00:07:45And it was so kind of inwardly focused. And then, you know, slowly, I think like what Janet was saying,
00:07:54you know,
00:07:54all just everything that was going on was becoming so much clearer.
00:07:59And being in New York and really seeing the privilege that I had to, you know, be in a space
00:08:06that was comfortable to live in,
00:08:08even though it was kind of hard to get there and seeing so many people who I knew having the
00:08:14privilege to flee the city and get out.
00:08:17And you really kind of start to see those contrasts between people with that privilege and people without.
00:08:25And it's all right in front of you because every time you leave your house, you're walking by people from
00:08:31all walks of life.
00:08:33And, you know, so I think that for now it's really been much more about me just trying to figure
00:08:43out how to deal with this period of time as a human being.
00:08:47How am I going to engage with it, be part of it?
00:08:51And it's something that I find myself kind of struggling with every day.
00:08:57How am I going to be a good mom? How am I going to be a good parent right now?
00:09:00How am I going to figure out how to engage with this?
00:09:03And I haven't even really arrived at how to deal with it creatively yet.
00:09:08Alex, how about for you? I know you're in the UK.
00:09:10It has affected me creatively quite a lot, I'd say. Initially, partly because I got sick.
00:09:17I got the virus very early on and it completely knocked me sideways and trashed about four weeks.
00:09:24But I didn't have to go to hospital, so it was unpleasant, but it wasn't dangerous.
00:09:29I think when I came out of it and looked around, there were two things, I guess.
00:09:34One was that I could see this was very bad and it made me unsure of how to write about
00:09:41the world
00:09:42because was it a world where everyone wore face masks and shops were closed
00:09:46and the sort of minutiae of sort of textural life?
00:09:50I just didn't know what that would be.
00:09:52There was also something I thought was quite good.
00:09:55I think there are, it's going to sound perverse to say it, but I think there are positives within this
00:09:59pandemic.
00:10:00And one of them is it shows up all of the populist leaders around the globe.
00:10:06Boris Johnson in my country, Trump in yours, Bolsonaro.
00:10:09It just shows what frauds they are. It shows what absolute idiots they are.
00:10:14It's uniquely the populist leaders that have failed to deal with this virus.
00:10:19It's very, very specifically them.
00:10:21And it's because they lie and their lies don't work against reality.
00:10:26And they've managed to push away reality with their bullshit up to this point.
00:10:32And this has penetrated it.
00:10:33And then you get to the outbreak of absolutely justified civil disobedience,
00:10:42which is different, but related in some respects.
00:10:45And with that, the creative effect that had on me was that I was writing about civil disobedience.
00:10:52And the reason I'd been going to Hong Kong last year,
00:10:55checking out the really fantastic popular movement there was over there protesting against,
00:11:03really protesting against the Chinese government rather than the Hong Kong government,
00:11:07to the extent there's a difference.
00:11:08And I was writing about it because I was really frustrated that I felt there were lots of things
00:11:15that deserved civil disobedience around.
00:11:18One of them being my government and the other one being your government.
00:11:22And that actually civil disobedience was what was required against these people.
00:11:26And not just against these people, but against the superstructures that support these people.
00:11:30And it was really, really bugging me.
00:11:33I was looking back in time and I was thinking about civil rights and Stonewall
00:11:38and anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and AIDS activists, the ACT UP people in New York,
00:11:45particularly in New York in the 80s,
00:11:49and thinking these people knew what civil disobedience was.
00:11:53They knew how to protest.
00:11:54It wasn't a march with an Instagram photo or an angry tweet.
00:12:00It was going out again and again and again and again.
00:12:04So I was writing a thing about the importance of civil disobedience.
00:12:08And then civil disobedience started again.
00:12:11Real, real civil disobedience.
00:12:13The kind of civil disobedience that is actually needed.
00:12:16So I just instantly stopped writing.
00:12:18I'd written a quarter, two episodes of an eight part thing.
00:12:22And I just thought, well, never mind that, because it's already started.
00:12:25So now I'm sort of hunting around for something else to do.
00:12:28But in both instances, I'm kind of pleased.
00:12:31And it's a pleasure that comes out of something very, very dark.
00:12:35Both of these things are very, very sinister and dark.
00:12:39But there's a part of me that takes a grim satisfaction at the response,
00:12:46at the result of showing liars that they're liars
00:12:49and getting people to fight about things they should fight about.
00:12:54So that's where I'm at.
00:12:56I think for me, it has changed creatively.
00:13:00I was in development on one main project and a couple little ones
00:13:05when we went into COVID.
00:13:06And so we were sort of already developing material.
00:13:08And it felt like kind of when we went through the protests,
00:13:11there's sort of almost before and after,
00:13:12with just the perspective on how we look at the material.
00:13:15It's like you kind of come back and it just feels sort of different,
00:13:19the way you're looking at character arcs and stories and themes.
00:13:23And there's just certain things that just feel like,
00:13:25oh, you know, we can't do that anymore.
00:13:28Or things are, you know,
00:13:29it just sort of changed the whole perspective on certain things.
00:13:32And it wasn't just me.
00:13:33I think everybody was feeling it that was involved with the project as well.
00:13:36And I think, you know, obviously there's, you know,
00:13:38there's a long road to go and there's a lot more to come with the story on this.
00:13:41But I'm kind of glad for the change, honestly.
00:13:45I feel like, you know, there's been a lot of talk and a lot of pushing to kind of get
00:13:47here.
00:13:48But I'm glad that things feel different.
00:13:50And I welcome it, even if it's been sort of a very difficult way to get there.
00:13:55I think what we're seeing is, you know,
00:13:56these conversations are starting to bubble up about where does Hollywood go from here?
00:14:01How does this industry change?
00:14:04And it made me realize I have a lot of people who are firsts in this group.
00:14:09You know, Janet, of course, you're known for being the first trans woman of color
00:14:14to be on a major series with Pose and then also have that major deal with Netflix.
00:14:20John, of course, Crazy Rich Asians was a big first for the industry with its success.
00:14:25And Deborah, obviously, being a woman who directed a Star Wars series,
00:14:29these are all major landmarks we've seen over the last year.
00:14:33And so I'm curious for the three of you, what does that wait feel like?
00:14:36You know, knowing that you you were the first to do something and here we are in this next chapter.
00:14:42I mean, are you optimistic that there won't have to be firsts anymore?
00:14:46There can just be plenty or how do you sort of carry that weight?
00:14:50For me, it's, you know, I just don't want to fuck up because I want to make sure that they
00:14:55keep the doors open for other folk to come in
00:14:58so that eventually progress looks like, you know, not me being the first and the only,
00:15:03but then there's tons of folk coming in and being able to tell the stories that they feel are important
00:15:07for them.
00:15:07Right. And so for me, I think ever since I've been public with my story from my memoirs until working
00:15:16on Pose in Hollywood,
00:15:17I felt that kind of added labor of carrying people in with me as I'm also just trying to figure
00:15:25out,
00:15:25you know, number one, how to do the work. I didn't go to film school.
00:15:29Next, you know, trusting my intuition and my voice and the things that I know about story.
00:15:35And then also, you know, doing the other thing of like just engaging in content and stories that I want
00:15:42to tell
00:15:43because I feel at the end of the day as a creative that I'm not doing the movement or the
00:15:49people or my communities any service
00:15:51that I'm doing anything that doesn't feel real or authentic or interesting to me.
00:15:55What's called upon for me, I think, in these moments are to do the things that bring me joy, that
00:16:01make me feel,
00:16:02that make me feel like something's resonated or brewing, that excites me.
00:16:07And also at the end of the day, too, working in Hollywood and being in the entertainment industry,
00:16:12it's to entertain people. Of course, there are always going to be a message behind it.
00:16:16And I think now, similar to what Deborah was saying, you know, I do feel challenged.
00:16:22I feel an urgency. And I think now with the access that I do have as this sort of kind
00:16:28of, you know,
00:16:31trailblazer in this space is to hopefully challenge the people that do believe in me to say that because you
00:16:37believe in me.
00:16:38Now, listen to me as I say that, you know, we need more, you know, people of color on our
00:16:43sets, in the makeup trailer,
00:16:45you know, the gaffes, the grips, you know, the drivers, all of that stuff.
00:16:50And I think that right now it's trying to figure out a way with the institutional access that I have,
00:16:57is to try to transform those spaces a little bit so that there's more people in there.
00:17:00You know, there are moments where you feel the weight, of course, but at the same time, I feel like
00:17:06I just took a giant shower.
00:17:08Like, it's just like the, you know, we didn't create the movement, the movement created me.
00:17:12And so this idea that like everyone was out there to like create this wave.
00:17:17And then they're just like, you just have to stand up.
00:17:19You just have to make something and we'll be right there.
00:17:22Reporters such as yourself and others all around the industry, actors who had been training all these years,
00:17:28doing the work, a book that that came out of this time and readers who were open to it,
00:17:33all these things, they had to come together.
00:17:35And so in my mind, I feel very free actually to finally confront the things that are scariest to me.
00:17:43I mean, it's scary to be on the front lines or have people expect that from you when you aren't
00:17:48that person.
00:17:50But at the same time, it's an honor and you have this grand responsibility.
00:17:53I grew up, my family has a restaurant and my mom and dad always told me, you know,
00:17:58they were in the kitchen and they're in the front and people in the front when you're hosting or serving,
00:18:03you know, people who come in think that you're their server and they treat you like shit sometimes.
00:18:09And I would watch this as a kid.
00:18:10And my dad, I got very upset when I saw it for the first time.
00:18:13My dad took me aside and said, listen, you know, we're one of the first came out in 1969,
00:18:17one of the first Chinese restaurants, we're ambassadors here.
00:18:19So we have to like treat them kindly and with love.
00:18:23So when they see another Chinese family that they will see them as friends and they will see them as
00:18:29equals in that way.
00:18:31You know, whether that's the right way to teach a child or not, who knows.
00:18:33But for me, it was that responsibility of being an ambassador was in my DNA.
00:18:39So when we made a movie, of course, you're going to have people come after you.
00:18:42You're going to learn a lot of lessons.
00:18:43You're not going to get everything right.
00:18:44That comes with the territory.
00:18:46And I think if I didn't watch, if I didn't see my parents go through that, I think it would
00:18:50be a lot scarier.
00:18:51So I just feel like very free to to help in whatever way to help communicate my experience.
00:18:57And where I used to think maybe there wasn't somebody who could understand that.
00:19:01I realized with the Internet, there's so many people out there.
00:19:05So and Deborah for you, I'm so curious about stepping into the Star Wars universe.
00:19:11What ended up being sort of the biggest surprise about becoming a part of that world and the reaction that
00:19:19any any move of Star Wars property gets?
00:19:23I think I underestimated it for sure.
00:19:26I mean, when we were making the series, you know, there were there actually a lot of firsts in terms
00:19:30of the directors on Mandalorian, both in terms of gender and and race.
00:19:36But when we were making it, I honestly I was we were not overthinking it.
00:19:39Like I wasn't sitting there going, oh, my God, you know, I'm going to be the first.
00:19:42And obviously, Bryce was was with me as well.
00:19:45So but it was when it came out that all of a sudden, you know, the show, I think, came
00:19:50out streaming at midnight.
00:19:51And then I woke up at 7 a.m.
00:19:53And all of a sudden, I've got like 27 texts telling me I'm trending on Twitter, which I had never
00:19:57in a million years expected would happen.
00:20:00And it was at that moment, you're like, wow, like there really is a responsibility and weight with this.
00:20:05And, you know, it's like, you know, moving forward.
00:20:07It's the same thing where you do feel it because it's it's not only the responsibility of Star Wars of
00:20:13trying not to scrub Star Wars,
00:20:14but it's also the responsibility of trying not to be the first woman or Asian who screws up Star Wars.
00:20:19But I think in large part, the only way I can kind of move forward with it is just to
00:20:23focus on the work and just trying to make something good and just sort of be, you know, be in
00:20:28that position.
00:20:28And hopefully, you know, just that brings change or, you know, what not just by sort of doing the job
00:20:34and having the opportunity to do it.
00:20:36And Anna, you went from Captain Marvel, which was the first female centered Marvel movie to working on Mrs. America.
00:20:44And obviously, that's also a story centered on feminists.
00:20:48So I'm curious, were you aware of sort of gravitating towards feminist stories back to back like that?
00:20:54Honestly, I wasn't I didn't choose it because that was, you know, I wanted to keep making feminist stories.
00:21:05But it did end up being like I'm kind of working in post on Captain Marvel in a very, very
00:21:11intense period.
00:21:12And I don't want to read anything like I'm not interested in my next project.
00:21:17I just want to take a long nap. And the script came in and and it was like these real
00:21:23life female superheroes.
00:21:25All these people who, you know, I didn't know, you know, I kind of grew up learning about and having
00:21:34so much admiration for.
00:21:36And yet it was told from such a different point of view.
00:21:41I mean, really told through like the anti-feminist Phyllis Schlafly.
00:21:46And it and it piqued my interest. It made me keep reading.
00:21:49And it didn't hurt that, you know, Cate Blanchett was also who's also kind of a female superhero was involved.
00:21:57They say that women are like tea bags.
00:22:01You don't know their strength until they get into hot water.
00:22:06And ladies, we sure did reach a boiling point.
00:22:14But when we saw that the devil was using one little word in that amendment, sex, to take away the
00:22:24rights of wives and give them to the homosexuals and to the abortionists,
00:22:28we knew we had to fight back and we are winning because we have God on our side.
00:22:34I really I don't think about, you know, what I'm going to do next as being part of like a
00:22:40theme of something I'm exploring.
00:22:42It kind of just is whatever I can get passionate enough about to focus the next couple of years of
00:22:49my life on because it's such, you know, it's so all consuming getting into a project.
00:22:56And, you know, I can't go part way with it.
00:23:01Alex and Jonah, both of your projects are so smart, you know, and let the viewers step into these imaginative
00:23:10sci-fi worlds.
00:23:11But I am curious how you think about the viewer.
00:23:15Do you ever worry that they may get lost?
00:23:18Have you ever changed a storyline or something to sort of, you know, help them out if you're if you're
00:23:25a little worried that maybe they won't understand something you're trying to deliver in your stories?
00:23:30My career began with the presumption.
00:23:34It's amazing to see how much this industry has changed in I've been here now 20 years.
00:23:41We started with my brother, Chris, with a movie that based on a short story I had written, he adapted
00:23:49it, you know, and it was with with memento was backwards and forwards.
00:23:54And it had this kind of Mobius strip construction to it.
00:23:57And the presumption at the time when we showed the movie, it was financed independently.
00:24:01I had just finished college.
00:24:02I moved out.
00:24:03We thought, shit, Hollywood is easy.
00:24:05Right.
00:24:06We turned up.
00:24:06We didn't know anybody.
00:24:07Someone gave us five million bucks.
00:24:09You begin to understand as you get older and you understand the different the different things that are helping you
00:24:13out along the way.
00:24:15But that part of it making the film was actually fairly straightforward.
00:24:18And then the time came to sell it.
00:24:20And I remember we did all these screenings one night.
00:24:22It was 20 years ago.
00:24:23It was March 2000.
00:24:24We screened the film all around town for different distributors.
00:24:27And they all came back and they said the same thing.
00:24:28They said, we loved it.
00:24:30We think it's great.
00:24:32Okay.
00:24:32Well, are you going to buy it?
00:24:34No, no, because the audience won't get it.
00:24:36And you go back to this place of what the fuck makes you think you're smarter than the audience?
00:24:41The prevailing attitude when I showed up in this town was the audience was dumb, that there was nothing you
00:24:46could you could never underestimate the audience.
00:24:48And so we banked our whole career, you know, Chris and myself at the beginning on the on the premise
00:24:54that there was an underserved part of the audience who wanted something that was challenging and complex, that the audience
00:25:01wasn't dumb, that in fact, the audience was smarter in many cases than what they were being offered.
00:25:08And so from the beginning, we kind of felt like, you know, you have this kind of lean in, lean
00:25:12forward version of of plotting.
00:25:16And look, fundamentally, I think, you know, the only way that I know how to work is to come from
00:25:20the place of writing the kind of the kind of stuff that I would enjoy watching.
00:25:25That has to be your guide if you start worrying or second guessing yourself too much.
00:25:29But that's the nice thing with the writers room.
00:25:31And that's the nice thing about television.
00:25:32The collaborative part of it is that you get to gather a really sophisticated group of people together and try
00:25:38it out.
00:25:38And you can feel in the room if the confused looks, you know, you've got a little bit of work
00:25:44to do to make sure it's clear.
00:25:46Alex, how about for you when it comes to devs?
00:25:50I know you were the writer, the director, the creator.
00:25:53You wore all the hats.
00:25:54So how much do you think about the viewer and how much they may or may not understand of what
00:25:59you're presenting?
00:26:00Not very much.
00:26:01I sort of try sometimes.
00:26:03I try to imagine, will this plot point make sense?
00:26:09Is it clear that this car is on that side of that car?
00:26:13Or some of the sort of mechanical type stuff.
00:26:17is it clear that this car is not clear enough?
00:26:21It's clear that this car is not clear.
00:26:35It's clear that this car is a real car is a real car.
00:26:37It's clear that this car is not clear.
00:26:39It's clear that this car is not clear.
00:26:43But broadly speaking, I think when I'm making something pretty quickly,
00:26:47I just drop into a hole and then I'm in that hole and I'm kind of really just
00:26:53working on instinct and so I think in truth not not really very much I come
00:27:00from a sort of independent film background a bit like Jonah and I wrote
00:27:05it as a spec basically I think the the issue I've always had with pitches and
00:27:13treatments is that I personally can't tell from a treatment whether it will
00:27:18work as a script and so it's it's much it's actually much easier for me to write
00:27:26it as a script and they don't all get made sometimes people don't want to make
00:27:30them that well that you know that's the breaks but so yeah there was no pitch
00:27:37there was a script and then you're you've got a good creative position because
00:27:42people aren't there for notes you're really saying do you want to make it or
00:27:45not so you know what's the most heartbreaking one that didn't get made
00:27:51you don't have to tell us the premise but the most heartbreaking ones are some of
00:27:54the ones that did get made I I'd much rather have a bad script not get made
00:28:02than a bad script made that but but you know that would be kissing and telling
00:28:07something John with home before dark I read that you were finishing up crazy
00:28:13rich Asians and you were looking for something meaningful to do next can you
00:28:16tell me what about that project you felt was meaningful and drew you to it you
00:28:22know crazy rich Asians changed my whole perspective of what kind of stories you
00:28:27know when you make a movie like that and that energy on set of everyone having a
00:28:30higher purpose it's hard to go back and so when we're talking about TV and I had not
00:28:36really done TV before my friend Dana Fox came to me and Joy Gorman from
00:28:42anonymous and they said you just had a daughter because I had a little girl two
00:28:47weeks after shooting crazy rich Asians and she's like we have we have this story
00:28:52about a father-daughter journalist of journalists family basically and I
00:28:57remember hearing Hilde Lyciak story of this this nine-year-old who broke a story in
00:29:02her hometown and I remember seeing her YouTube videos of people having all
00:29:06these bad comments on her and rather than sort of shrink back she made a video
00:29:10where she read all the bad comments out loud and I just that had stuck with me
00:29:14for years and so when they brought that up that they got the rights to that and
00:29:17that this was not gonna be a kids show kids show this was for the whole family but
00:29:24it was gonna treat she was gonna be the main role and that we could treat this
00:29:29little girl as seriously as any hero in any superhero movie that was very
00:29:34exciting for me the idea of the search for truth is the thing that really got
00:29:37me what did you do I'm a journalist no you're a fourth grader you sent us to the
00:29:42whole effing school easy language technically effing isn't Hilde not now you left the
00:29:50house in the middle of the night come on what were you thinking mom said we could
00:29:53have more freedom here yeah well that's gone now someone we know got murdered last
00:29:59night okay come on Jenny screen time this idea that the scariest thing in this
00:30:04was not gonna be some monster under the bed this was gonna be the stuff that we
00:30:08sweep under the rug and confronting that stuff there's a portrait of a family and
00:30:14how important journalism is and even from a little girl what you pour into your
00:30:18kids is a reflection of what you hope to be and they spit it right back at you
00:30:23like a mirror and so I just loved all those dynamics that it was this pulpy fun
00:30:27mystery but at the same time had a message of of journalism the importance
00:30:31of journalism and then enough in a family understanding family so that's really
00:30:37what drew it to me and then to be able to work with Apple Plus they were you know
00:30:41they're in their infancy so it was fun to just like get on that I grew up in
00:30:45Cupertino near Apple so it was fun to sort of come home and and and work on that
00:30:49with them and Janet you have so much work you've done over the last year but I'm
00:30:54especially curious about Hollywood because it does explore you know if
00:30:59different diverse people had really gotten to have more moments in in this
00:31:05industry can you tell me about what about that project what it felt like to sort
00:31:10of explore the what-ifs if if old Hollywood had had been that different I've
00:31:15always been you know fascinated with 1940s kind of star-making machine of the
00:31:20studio system and the films at that time period were kind of like building blocks
00:31:26for me in my own kind of you know my obsession with glamour and you know the
00:31:32way that people move their bodies and a lot of the things that you kind of see in
00:31:36my work and you know there's always a piece of me you know as a black trans
00:31:42child growing up in America looking at those images and not necessarily seeing
00:31:47yourself and then when you do see like a little spark of yourself like Alina
00:31:51horn flutters on screen for one scene to sing you know a number and then is cut
00:31:57in the south because they don't want to see a black woman on screen you know
00:32:01those kind of things are what kind of pushed me to want to work on Hollywood
00:32:05with Ryan and Ian and so I think that the revisionist history of it was
00:32:10interesting to me as a fan of that time period and really thinking about these
00:32:16conversations about you know how the gatekeepers are able to make the decisions
00:32:23that they do why they continue to make the same films over and over and over
00:32:26again why they put the same stars in over and over and over again why they say
00:32:30certain things don't work when they never tried before and then when things do
00:32:33work it's a fluke well you know what I am finished with patience and civility
00:32:40nobody's taking your name off any fuck this studio head fuck these white people
00:32:46in charge they don't play fair so why should we I felt like an Uncle Tom even
00:32:51writing this goddamn script about this dumbass white girl that ain't my life
00:32:56that ain't my story that's their story and it's still and so for us you know the
00:33:05challenge when I came into the room they had written three episodes already and it
00:33:09was very much like a sex romp about the gas station and kind of that CD world and
00:33:14then you're going into the studio system world and I had made a pitch to Ryan I
00:33:21said what if you know the one colored girl on contract ends up fighting for a
00:33:25screen test and she gets the role how does that change everything how do the
00:33:30people outside the studio system react how do you know say like the KKK you know in
00:33:37episode six I had to do cross burnings which were its own magnificent thing
00:33:43because the imagery of it was so powerful but as we were sitting there you know
00:33:47talking about the mechanics of it I'm like oh wow we're really burning crosses on
00:33:50three lawns you know in Hancock Park and it was like this weird kind of thing and so
00:33:57for me that kind of was the the interesting part about working on Hollywood was being
00:34:02able to make those little twists and like if you say what if we cast the black
00:34:06girl what happens then and everything kind of shifted in the series for the
00:34:10last basically five episodes because of that one little pitch and this is pretty
00:34:15unusual for a director's roundtable but we have two directors who worked
00:34:19together on on devs Janet you had an acting role on on the show which I think is
00:34:24so fun can you guys tell me about how that came about and what it what you may have
00:34:29learned from working together in that respect you know it was obviously I was
00:34:34a fan and admirer of Alex's work and so when Carmen Cuba I'm the casting director
00:34:40and producer I believe on Mrs. America asked me to read for the role of senator
00:34:44I was just like it says she's 50 something years old like what you know I
00:34:48had never acted before but she's kind of been obsessed with this thing and then
00:34:52she said Alex Garland I was like oh my god and so for me I took it as you know
00:34:56I
00:34:56had just shot I think only had done two episodes at that point of directing and
00:35:01I was like this would be a great experiment for me to see what it feels
00:35:06like to be an actor on a set you know and the not knowing of it all and the the
00:35:11lack of control in a sense and just the the trust you have to give you know to the
00:35:18process and you know what was so great is that Alex had written and directed all
00:35:24eight he knew exactly the moments that he needed and it was easy to just trust
00:35:30the process but at the same time I left with a huge appreciation for actors and
00:35:36and what they do and the bravery of just like you do it on the day and then it
00:35:40just disappears and it comes back and it's like this beautiful thing you're
00:35:44like oh my god did I do that well yeah had you ever acted before no Alex so what
00:35:53was it like for you to know you had another director on set you know watching
00:35:58your work you know it was good fun it's I the thing about the thing about work is
00:36:06that on the one hand you're constructing a TV show or a movie or whatever it is and
00:36:13there's something kind of grand about that in some respects but in other ways
00:36:18you're you're really like a bunch of people standing around a hole in the road
00:36:22trying to figure out how to fill it and and and there's a lot of it's it's all
00:36:27very practical you know on on the day on set it's really quite practical and
00:36:32straightforward and and it's quite fun having unexpected aspects like a director
00:36:38acting that's that's that's a good thing you know it sort of sort of brightens up
00:36:43the day I guess what I didn't know was whether I felt very confident about
00:36:48Janet and part of that comes from my confidence in Carmen Cuba I suppose as
00:36:53well but I felt confident what I didn't know was what will the very first moment
00:36:58be like you know because because I I'd never do that I'd never stand in front of
00:37:03a camera and read lines never and and so there's a sort of suspended like held
00:37:09breath beat of is Janet actually gonna be able to do this and then she just did and
00:37:15then it's just good fun you know it was good I really enjoyed it and Deborah you
00:37:19had a small role in the Mandalorian tell me was that just a fun little
00:37:25appearance how did that come about that started as a joke that I thought was
00:37:30actually gonna happen and it was supposed to just be a cameo with no lines
00:37:35at all so it's it's developed like a life of its own but yeah we were when we
00:37:41with the three of us decided to do it and we went on the day of shooting you
00:37:45know Jon Favreau was watching and basically just start throwing us lines
00:37:49as we're sitting there and then all of a sudden we're all like no we don't want
00:37:52to join SAG we don't we don't want lines I wouldn't say I don't know I think for
00:37:59Rick and I know neither of us have even been able to watch it it's that
00:38:02horrifying for us like we I definitely do not want to be an actor but well let's
00:38:06talk about that relationship with actors because obviously it's so key to your
00:38:10work what would you say makes that collaboration you know it's just as easy
00:38:16as it can be trust trust yeah absolutely I mean and you have to build that with
00:38:23every step every moment you have to make it clear that that you've created a safe
00:38:29space and in exchange you get to a different place you can you can ask I'm
00:38:34you know I'm not 100% sure frankly that my presence on set makes any damn
00:38:40difference at all we have this on Westworld we have one of the most
00:38:43ridiculously talented casts I could imagine and so not really I'd flatter
00:38:50myself by imagining that anything gets better when I show up on set but you know
00:38:54I think part of what Lisa and I did from the beginning on that show was create a
00:38:59place in which and part of that is how you design your set and who you allow to be
00:39:03on your set and the rules that you that you build just making sure that people
00:39:07that these incredibly talented people who you've asked to reveal pieces of
00:39:13themselves feel safe to do so that they feel that that they can trust you I love
00:39:20creating that process with my actors for home before dark specifically with
00:39:25Brooklyn Prince who's nine years old eight actually when I shot with her which
00:39:30is pretty amazing for an eight-year-old to carry a show and and she wouldn't just
00:39:34like say lines like she really had to understand it and I don't know the
00:39:37perspective of an eight-year-old little girl and so we would have a lot of
00:39:42conversations with me and her without her parents just about like what does this
00:39:47mean what is what does this word mean what does this moment mean Jim Sturgis who
00:39:51plays her father and Adam Miller her mother you know we have these family
00:39:55meetings just in the fake kitchen they're talking about how how Brooklyn
00:40:01felt about being bullied or how or how Hilde would feel sometimes we even call
00:40:06Hilde herself and talk to her and I think that to have an actor that that that
00:40:11understands that perspective and once you know Brooklyn would say often like I
00:40:16just want to make Hilde proud like I want to know what that how she felt there to
00:40:19to present that properly and so when we when she takes it seriously we take her
00:40:24seriously and it's just like I love finding that everybody's currency and
00:40:29finding the process where we can all work on this canvas together Anna how about
00:40:33for you what makes the best actor director collaboration for you part of it I
00:40:39think is just chemical and like there are certain people who really like you just
00:40:44start talking the same language right away but one it reminds me of like one of the
00:40:49really early things I learned from an actor on our first movies it's like you
00:40:56spend so long especially as an independent director when you're writing
00:40:59something on spec and you're trying to get it sold and you're trying to cast it
00:41:04and you're trying to put it together and you've created this entire world in
00:41:08your head and and you feel like you know every minutia of how everything should
00:41:13be and then you start inviting people into the process and you know one of the
00:41:19first things I learned from my actors was you know it was it was an argument
00:41:25about what the facial hair of one of the characters should be and I had this idea
00:41:30I like knew how it was going to be I had imagined it a million times and the
00:41:35facial hair should be this way and then the actor had a different idea and said
00:41:40you know when I look in the mirror I feel like the character and it really like I
00:41:47think about that all the time because whatever you know this person comes in
00:41:53and they're bringing this whole new life to it and it becomes this whole new
00:41:56collaboration and whatever you can do as a director to help them feel most like
00:42:02the character so they're gonna give their best performance and that's kind of you
00:42:06know what Ryan and I try to do I haven't mentioned Ryan yet but he's my
00:42:11co-director who I always work with and really trying to create that space where
00:42:17we're opening up our thing that we've had that's just ours and really inviting
00:42:23actors into it and trying to create a space where they you know like you said
00:42:28trust just feel like they can try a million things and fail and you know and
00:42:34it's like a safe space to do that what do you do if you are not able to sort of
00:42:40collaborate well with an actor I'm sure some of you have had this experience
00:42:44over the years how do you get past that and work through something like that you
00:42:49just kill off the character no no you gotta you gotta work through it I mean you got it
00:42:57you know the TV is TV I mean TV is changing but TV is like a like a marriage right
00:43:01a
00:43:02films like a like a you know like a fling but TV is like a marriage gonna make it work
00:43:07with your core cast you've got to figure it out very quickly and if it if it's not working you
00:43:10need to sit down and I think sit down and really talk it through and and you know and figure
00:43:16it out
00:43:23for me my only experience has always been as first in the writers room and then going to
00:43:30shoot the scripts that I write and so I think that what Jonah said a little earlier about the
00:43:36trust of the process I think that what most of the actors on the two shows that I've been on
00:43:42what
00:43:43they call for me is that I have a command of store and I know what I'm looking for and
00:43:46then that way
00:43:47they can show up and do new things and try new things I don't think I've ever had anyone yet
00:43:53just
00:43:55kind of give me what they want to give you know some of the more veteran actors will kind of
00:43:58have
00:43:59that you know these this is what I'm going to do and I'm not going to shift from that and
00:44:03I think
00:44:04oftentimes you have to then go in and have a little you know a little powwow usually in rehearsal or
00:44:09you
00:44:10know take a little bit of a break and explain the process of like where we're going for art
00:44:15for pose and for Hollywood as we were shooting we didn't have all the scripts out yet and so I
00:44:21could
00:44:21use that oftentimes to say well your character's going here and da da da da and so you can talk
00:44:27things through to like justify sometimes why I need specifically why I need and most times it just
00:44:33comes from a process of like them knowing that I'm actually watching every little thing that they're
00:44:37doing and I'm intentional about the direction that I'm giving and I don't over talk anything
00:44:43but yeah you know some days you have difficult actors who don't show up on time who don't do
00:44:48this don't do that and slowly but surely as Jonah said you know they kind of get written down and
00:44:53down and down because they're not as dependable it's simple
00:44:58sometimes that tension is great you know that that energy shows up on screen and so like some of
00:45:04my most difficult actors like we could say difficult but like sometimes it's just perfectionist
00:45:10or trying to understand something that that I don't necessarily understand and so um I love
00:45:16fighting through that because energy is energy and when that camera turns on you feel it and they're
00:45:21trying and they're pushing and you're pushing it's like there's something that it creates there
00:45:25I wish I could get to that place the sort of Werner Herzog Klaus Kinski you know I'm going to
00:45:30stand
00:45:30behind the camera with a rifle pointing at the actor's place but I don't think I'm capable of it
00:45:36I just find I find I honestly find directing so difficult that when people kind of can't get out
00:45:42of their own space I mean it's you know as Alex said you're all out there often literally by the
00:45:48side of the road looking in a hole in the ground it's a lovely metaphor and you sort of feel
00:45:52they're
00:45:53the folks who sort of appreciate how difficult everyone's job is on set and just try to show up and
00:45:59I've been I've been I've been really really lucky in working with generous actors and grown-ups
00:46:04Debra I do want to hear about you know stepping into Mandalorian of course there were multiple
00:46:09directors on this project and I'm curious how that affects the way you worked on your episodes
00:46:15how much are you thinking about what came before and what came after your specific episodes
00:46:21um it was an it was an interesting experience because it was like nothing I'd ever done in television
00:46:26before um just because the process was completely different you know because we were in there so
00:46:31early I was there two and a half months ahead um and we previous everything going in because obviously
00:46:37we're doing the volume technology which so we had to do the previous for it um so what as a
00:46:42result
00:46:42what was really interesting about it was that all the directors got to really know each other
00:46:46because we'd all be doing previous or you know prep at different times so as opposed to like sort of
00:46:53regular tv or traditional tv tv where you kind of maybe just overlap a little bit with somebody and
00:46:58sort of ships passing in the night it really we really got to know each other and we actually
00:47:03started I think a lot in a lot of ways um you know leaning on each other and sort of
00:47:08collaborating
00:47:09to sort of figure out okay like you know movement like how are we how is the character how are
00:47:13we
00:47:13defining this character by movement so um it was an interesting process because it was almost like a team
00:47:19which I have never been part of in such a way um trying to find the first season and it
00:47:24would also
00:47:24we also didn't shoot in order um so everything was sort of shot out of order it didn't go sort
00:47:29of one
00:47:29and and carry on um so it was an interesting process where I think we really learned from each other
00:47:34and
00:47:34we we all sort of developed the language together
00:47:36we all sort of developed the language together
00:48:06I know you're working on the Obi-Wan series,
00:48:08which you'll be directing throughout.
00:48:10How different will that be sort of being in charge of it all?
00:48:14It's definitely gonna be different
00:48:15just in terms of the sheer workload,
00:48:18obviously of doing the whole thing.
00:48:21But in some ways, I'm gonna miss having a team, honestly,
00:48:24and having people that are there
00:48:25to sort of bounce ideas off them.
00:48:27But then obviously the flip side is,
00:48:29it is nice to kind of have like a coherent voice
00:48:31and know sort of what you're doing from beginning to end
00:48:33and be thinking about the whole thing as one.
00:48:36So you have to previs every shot in the volume
00:48:40or do you, can you riff on the day?
00:48:44To an extent, I mean, you do have to previs
00:48:46because basically they're going out to get the,
00:48:48you know, they're doing the photogrammetry
00:48:49and they're building the environment.
00:48:51So you need a fairly time like of several weeks
00:48:53in order for them to have that content ready on the screen.
00:48:57So once you've got, once you have it on the screen,
00:49:00then you could riff to a certain extent, you know what I mean?
00:49:03You could, within the environment,
00:49:04you could change the blocking somewhat,
00:49:05or, you know, change the angles,
00:49:07but you can't change what's on the screen.
00:49:09You know, so that's what you're having to commit to early on.
00:49:13And Alex, tell me about how you work with your actors,
00:49:18sort of helping them prepare to step into the world you've created.
00:49:21Do you suggest books or films or do you just have talks with them?
00:49:24How do you sort of get them prepared for those roles that they're taking on?
00:49:29It really depends on the actor.
00:49:31There are some actors who, you know, who really just want to turn up and do it.
00:49:36And too much discussion beforehand would make them anxious.
00:49:40And there's others who find their comfort in the space by talking and talking and talking and swapping books or
00:49:50articles or YouTube videos or going on research trips to talk to whoever is relevant for their role or whatever.
00:49:57So, so I just, I really just try and do, just do what the actor needs.
00:50:03The, the only, the only requirement I do or the only requirement I ask for is that everybody agrees to
00:50:12rehearsal.
00:50:13For all the principal members of cast, um, uh, sorry, Janet, wasn't, wasn't you on this one, uh, we, we
00:50:22blocked out two weeks before principal photography and then we shot in blocks.
00:50:27So we'd keep doing a rehearsal period before all the blocks.
00:50:31And that also came from, uh, having worked on film.
00:50:34I, I, I know not everyone rehearses.
00:50:37I simply don't understand why they don't.
00:50:39It's only upside as far as I can tell.
00:50:41Um, there's a lot of questions that might get asked on set and slow the day down that get dealt
00:50:47with if you rehearse properly.
00:50:49So it's, it's not, it's not to kill the performance.
00:50:53It's for everyone to agree, you know, not know why a line exists, know why this character feels that about
00:51:00that character.
00:51:00So, uh, but aside from rehearsals, I'm completely malleable according to whatever the actor wants.
00:51:06Do any of the rest of you, uh, believe as strongly in rehearsals or maybe not?
00:51:11Not hold as much value to them.
00:51:13For me, rehearsals are that safe space where we truly get to talk about the material.
00:51:18Oftentimes we don't have time in our schedules to be able to do it beyond on the day.
00:51:25So we do it before we set up cameras and I get to discuss my thoughts around blocking where I
00:51:30kind of want people at where, how I want to see them move.
00:51:34We get to, you know, I get to have their feedback on what they believe or what they felt that
00:51:38their character would be doing specifically like on a show like Pose where, you know, now we're in our third
00:51:44season.
00:51:45Um, they have very clear opinions about, you know, what they want for their characters.
00:51:51Um, and so we have to have that space.
00:51:53I agree with Alex to be able to discuss that stuff and suss it out before the cameras go up
00:51:59and then you have a hundred other people around you watching.
00:52:01And so I think in those private rehearsals for me, it's, it's essential to be able to have a, to
00:52:06actually have complete a day and get what I need.
00:52:09I a hundred percent agree.
00:52:10Um, Ryan and I really have, have always done rehearsals and sometimes that rehearsal isn't necessarily blocking out a scene.
00:52:19It depends what the scene requires.
00:52:21If there isn't a lot of blocking in a scene, then you don't need to, um, and, and you have
00:52:27a certain kind of actor who doesn't like to kill it in that way, um, or mark it out in
00:52:32that way.
00:52:32But at least like reading through the script and talking about, um, you know, character and story and getting some
00:52:40of those conversations out so that you're, um, just, just closer to being able to delve into it in a
00:52:47more rich way when you're on set.
00:52:49Um, we always love to do that on our movies and, and I do think that sometimes it does, um,
00:52:55particularly on television feel like, uh, something that you don't always get to do or don't always get to do
00:53:03in as thorough a way.
00:53:04Um, on Mrs. America, our first two episodes, we had a lot of time with the actors, um, and particularly
00:53:10with, uh, Cate Blanchett and John Slattery who play a couple in, in the, um, series.
00:53:17We had a lot of time with them and we actually went to the location and, uh, used the space
00:53:24and talked through some of the scenes and it was setting up their characters and setting up their dynamic.
00:53:29And it was so helpful.
00:53:31Um, we didn't always have that by the time we got to the finale episode.
00:53:35And, um, I, I did miss that time.
00:53:39Um, but, you know, you deal with it and, you know, we, we made it work, but, um, you know,
00:53:45part of that was just the learning experience of working on television where, uh, you know, we're used to having
00:53:52the script.
00:53:53I don't know how you worked, um, Alex, because you wrote and directed all the episodes, but we didn't have
00:53:59the script for episode nine, you know, while we were shooting episode one and two.
00:54:04And so that was a real learning curve for us in terms of how things are getting written as you
00:54:10go in television.
00:54:12Did you write everything before you started shooting?
00:54:15Yeah.
00:54:16Yeah.
00:54:16So, so, so yeah, cause it was a, it's a limited, what do you call it?
00:54:21Limited series.
00:54:22So, um, yeah, so I just, uh, and I, apart from anything I couldn't have been writing and also that
00:54:30sort of rolling state of writing just wouldn't have been possible.
00:54:33Um, but anyway, I couldn't have done it any, I, I sort of need to know what the ending is,
00:54:39I guess, but, but I do, I do understand that other process and, um, and it interests me.
00:54:44Um, it sounds scary in, in a sort of good way.
00:54:48Um, uh, sort of like take, take the parachute jump and you're not exactly sure did anyone strap it on
00:54:55and you'll find out about halfway down.
00:54:57Um, and there, there's something sort of, something kind of exciting about that, I guess, um, if you've got a
00:55:02death wish anyway.
00:55:03And, uh, um, but, but no, I, I took the cautious route.
00:55:07I took the, the sort of the, yeah, the safe option.
00:55:10I'm going to write down some of your metaphors cause I like them.
00:55:16Well, you know, what's so interesting about the, the latter process is that you talk about the collaborative nature of
00:55:22television and specifically in series where you have different arcs over various series.
00:55:27You have to retool sometimes based on how an actor shows up or their strengths.
00:55:32And so you'll notice something like very early on, we didn't know that Billy Porter would step up and be
00:55:37a lead on pose.
00:55:38We didn't know that until we saw him on stage corralling this crew of, you know, 300 background actors.
00:55:46And it's just like, wow, there's a presence here that is so much bigger than him just staying, standing behind
00:55:51the microphone podium.
00:55:52We then gave him, we made Pray Tell an even bigger character and it's all because of how they showed
00:55:58up.
00:55:58So we had the first two scripts written and we had drafts of, um, the next three episodes.
00:56:03And then we went back and retooled after the pilot and we gave Billy so much more, so many more
00:56:08scenes with Blanca, which became kind of the heart of the show.
00:56:11And so similar, we had that on, on Hollywood as well, that you get to kind of see how they
00:56:15are in the pilot and you sit there and you watch and you're just like, oh wait, there's something here.
00:56:19Like the Rock Hudson character is actually comedic and he's funny. He's a little goofy. It's like, let's write more
00:56:26to that.
00:56:27And so we retooled things for the later scripts based on those strengths that the actors come up with or
00:56:32have neatly.
00:56:32So I do want to ask you all about, um, going back onto set and into production, you know, uh,
00:56:39things are starting to move in that direction.
00:56:40And obviously as the directors, you are the leaders on set. How are you feeling about the idea of production
00:56:48starting up again?
00:56:49And what do you feel like will have to change for that to work for you?
00:56:52I'll jump in. I'm feeling very apprehensive about it. You know, you do feel, I think, um, in, in television,
00:56:59you can be the director, but also the executive producer.
00:57:01I mean, you know, you feel very responsible for your crew, feel responsible for them right now.
00:57:08Cause you know, all crews plan for a month or two of not working, right? It's it, we're showbiz folks.
00:57:13This is how it works.
00:57:15Nobody plans for, I think with the sort of big, um, productions that, you know, the, the big on location
00:57:22stuff that all of us shoot, it's going to take a long time to figure out how to do those
00:57:26again and how to do them safely.
00:57:28We had a relatively minor illness, um, Westworld season three, and it was a, you know, it was a massive,
00:57:37uh, amount of money that went into that.
00:57:39It's hugely disruptive.
00:57:40So if you consider a disease that, you know, that incubates for 14 to 18 days that people can be
00:57:47asymptomatic and still, we still know so little about this.
00:57:50So on a level feeling concerned, feeling worried about your crew's physical safety, I think we have a lot left
00:57:57to figure out for these big productions.
00:58:00There's certain things that can go back into production.
00:58:02Yeah. And I think if we were, you know, as, as directors, you are responsible for these people.
00:58:07And like we were finishing in the Heights, we were in the mix.
00:58:09And I knew as soon as schools and we were going, like we had, we had a deadline.
00:58:13And as soon as schools were shut down and kids like our, our mixers, our sound editors, our kids were
00:58:19coming home and I could see in their face that they didn't, of course, they're going to work.
00:58:24Of course, they're going to finish our movie, but I can feel in them that they are, they have kids
00:58:28coming home and they don't know what to do with them.
00:58:30And so there is a responsibility in our roles to protect them.
00:58:33Um, and when the government's not necessarily doing it, then we have to take it upon ourselves.
00:58:39I think that that response, I, I've never really felt that responsibility until this time really being like, we, I
00:58:45need to fight with the studio, whoever's paying for this.
00:58:47Cause I know they want to move forward, but like, we have to protect our crew who's sitting here in
00:58:51pain.
00:58:52Cause they don't know they're going to fight for our movie, but like they're in a tough situation.
00:58:56So I think all those things, if, if someone were to get it, if someone's parents or kids get it,
00:59:02like, I don't, I don't want that on my shoulders either.
00:59:04So there's a lot of questions of what, what to do.
00:59:07I think there's also like what kind of production, what are the stories that you can actually do and maybe
00:59:12do.
00:59:13And I'm not sure I feel that comfortable just for my own, to protect my own family.
00:59:16Really.
00:59:16I have a two month old at home.
00:59:18So I have been just extremely conservative about this whole thing in, in, in my own personal life.
00:59:28And so, you know, I just totally agree with everything you guys just said about, yeah, feeling a lot of
00:59:36concern about what that looks like and making sure that maybe there's like a resort movie that we could all
00:59:45make where like everything's shot in the resort.
00:59:48It's a great film and everyone can bring their families and we all quarantine together on the resort and we
00:59:54just shoot everything in the resort and eat the resort food.
00:59:56I don't know, but that's not something that I'm really seriously thinking about, you know.
01:00:02There is just one thing.
01:00:04I understand the apprehension.
01:00:05And of course, it's correct to have apprehension.
01:00:08And I've got it too.
01:00:09But at the same time, I don't, I don't know if we can all sit around saying a vaccine is
01:00:15going to turn up.
01:00:16And we do work in an industry and the people that we're talking about protecting, there's other ways they need
01:00:23protecting as well as their physical health, which is economically and they need to work.
01:00:30And so we do have to find a way to get back on set to get productions going or whether
01:00:37that is like you, the day works a lot slower, possibly.
01:00:41So it's like, you know, you do the lighting and then everyone steps back and then the grips come in
01:00:47and sort out the dolly or like however it's done.
01:00:51The sort of circus all moving together, the circus starts to splinter up.
01:00:55Maybe it's something like that.
01:00:57I don't know.
01:00:58But but what I really feel is I kind of I'm getting to the point where I want to start
01:01:03figuring out how to get on with it, because it's the only thing I've maybe ever agreed with Donald Trump
01:01:09about, which is the the that some of the economic consequences become quite serious in themselves.
01:01:15You know, if people aren't earning, if people don't have money, recessions kill people just the same way viruses do.
01:01:22And so I'm definitely going to stop saying that because I really I can feel like I'm breaking out in
01:01:29hives, finding myself in a point of agreement with him.
01:01:33But but I do I do think we need to get back to work.
01:01:37I really, really do feel that strongly.
01:01:39And so I spend quite a lot of time thinking about the practical aspects of it, about how to actually
01:01:46get on a set, how to make it function sort of reasonably safely.
01:01:50I don't think we're going to be able to say nobody's going to get COVID.
01:01:55I that that that seems impossible.
01:01:58So so we have to go into it in a certain kind of way and like do the best we
01:02:01can.
01:02:02But we kind of we do need to get on with it.
01:02:04Do you think that smaller crews like I mean, is that going back to a way of working that that
01:02:11maybe we kind of started out with, you know, small indie films?
01:02:17Yeah, I think that that indie model where where it's quite guerrilla, it's quite stripped back.
01:02:23But at the same time, you can get a tracking shot.
01:02:26You know, it doesn't it doesn't mean everything has to be handheld with one key light.
01:02:30You can it gives a lot of flexibility.
01:02:33But and maybe that's the baby steps before we get back into the kind of big movies that, you know,
01:02:38like you guys know how to make.
01:02:40I've never worked on a thing like that.
01:02:41But but I kind of yeah, I just feel I'm sort of like straining at the leash a bit.
01:02:49You know, I think there's two parts to it.
01:02:51Right. Someone used the metaphor for me with regards to the American economy in the face of this crisis.
01:02:56It's like a car that's built. It's like a dragster. It's built to go 400 miles an hour. It's got
01:03:00no fucking seatbelts.
01:03:01So if we hit the first bump, everyone dies. Right.
01:03:05There is no structure in our country for supporting people in a moment like this.
01:03:09And I think the other thing we need to think of.
01:03:11Yeah, we need to think of ways to get back to work is very important.
01:03:14But we also need to look at our industry and figure out, OK, look, everyone, you know, everyone's accustomed to
01:03:20the you work for a few months and then you take a few weeks off a few months.
01:03:23Maybe the job comes, maybe it doesn't. I mean, in many ways, Hollywood people are kind of adapted to this
01:03:28world.
01:03:28Right. This is how we live. We do some work.
01:03:30We stop. The work dries up for a bit. You go back to work. But is that really how it
01:03:34should be?
01:03:35So we've been working with the Motion Picture and Television Fund, which is a tremendous organization in terms of making
01:03:40sure that there's a little bit more of a backstop for our crew members and making sure.
01:03:45Look, the reality is, no, we're not going to wait necessarily for a vaccine. Right.
01:03:49But we will wait to figure out the appropriate, responsible methodologies where you can know you're not going to be
01:03:54able to guarantee no one gets sick, but you have to get to a place where you feel good about
01:04:02inviting your family back on the set.
01:04:04And you feel like you're not going to become, you know, the reason. And so you need resources in place.
01:04:09We need to figure out methodologies for being able to shoot. But we also need to figure out, take a
01:04:13look at, take a hard look at our business and say, is this the way it should be?
01:04:16Where people are paid for a certain amount of work and then discarded? Or, you know, is there is there
01:04:21more work that we could be doing to make sure that our industry, like other industries, when things shut down?
01:04:26Because this ain't, you know, this isn't the last time this is going to happen, that the resources are there
01:04:30to make sure that, you know, that things don't get too desperate for people in our business.
01:04:35Joan, I did want to ask you about season three of Westworld and directing, because I know you didn't direct
01:04:41in season two, but you decided to take on this episode in season three.
01:04:46What was it about this one that you had to do yourself?
01:04:49Every time I direct, I'm taking a slot away from someone else who could be bringing something different to it.
01:04:54So season two and Lisa and I run the show together. Lisa directed in the second season and did an
01:05:00amazing, amazing episode and now went off to make a movie.
01:05:03She's gotten very fancy very quickly. I stuck around. And on season three, it really felt like, look, we're reinventing
01:05:12the grammar of the show completely.
01:05:14We're going from this is one of the things we were excited about with the show is that in every
01:05:17season, it could subtly shift genre.
01:05:22Almost looks like it makes sense from up here. All you see is the order of it, the plan.
01:05:30Your plan, you mean? Doesn't inside control all of it? Even the traffic?
01:05:37Just the technology.
01:05:42So we had been shooting a Western and for this season, we needed to really take a look.
01:05:47And from the beginning, Lisa and I struggled with, OK, well, how is this going to work?
01:05:50What's it going to look like? How do you do it on a TV schedule and budget?
01:05:53Luckily, we have one of the most fantastically talented crews, you know, that I've ever worked with.
01:06:01Incredibly imaginative. But I really felt like it wouldn't be fair. I felt like I needed to be the guinea
01:06:05pig.
01:06:06I had a vision. You know, you're threading the needle here in terms of, you know, visions of the future.
01:06:13Blade Runner has kind of dominated the space for so long.
01:06:17You know, you're asking someone to invent a visual language.
01:06:20Near future, I think, is actually in many ways, you know, kind of the tallest order.
01:06:24You know, far future, you can get out there and you can kind of create from whole cloth.
01:06:28Near future, you need to come up with something that also rings true for an audience.
01:06:31So I felt like, look, I'll have a lot of ideas.
01:06:34And I really didn't want to put anyone in the position of if I figured if we screwed it up,
01:06:40it would be it would be my fault.
01:06:41And I would have only myself to blame.
01:06:43And in truth, I just love working with our our cast and crew.
01:06:46So it was it was a lot of fun to be to be back back in the director's seat.
01:06:49So, guys, we're going to end this with one lighter question I'm going to have you all answer.
01:06:54And the question is, if there was one director alive or dead you could sit down with and pick his
01:07:00or her brain about their work, who would you pick?
01:07:05And what did you what do you want to know?
01:07:07Fuck. Holy fucking shit.
01:07:09Yeah.
01:07:11That's a big question.
01:07:13That's such an unfair question.
01:07:15Did you say alive or dead?
01:07:18Well, I'm just going to I'm just going to say a name.
01:07:21Right. Because it's a long list.
01:07:23OK, but just because I've been watching and stuff recently rewatching.
01:07:30I was going to say Nick Rogue.
01:07:33Walkabout.
01:07:34Don't look now.
01:07:35Man who fell to earth.
01:07:37Because there's some there's there's decisions that get made within those films that are absolutely fascinating.
01:07:44And I would like to know how those decisions got made.
01:07:48So I'd say I'd say Nick Rogue.
01:07:50But I could say Peter Weir as well, because I rewatched Picnic at Hanging Rock the other day.
01:07:55And that is a very, very interesting movie.
01:07:58But anyway, I said Nick Rogue.
01:07:59So I'm going to stay with Nick Rogue.
01:08:00To be honest, one of those people would be Alex Garland for sure.
01:08:05I love his movies.
01:08:07I love his brain.
01:08:09I would want to.
01:08:12Thanks, Joe.
01:08:12I would love to talk about the future with him.
01:08:15No, no joke.
01:08:16That's like.
01:08:17That's very kind.
01:08:18The details of the future.
01:08:20These are the things that like I stay up at night thinking about.
01:08:24I don't make movies about them yet because I just don't feel smart enough.
01:08:26But when I watch your movies, I see such honesty in technology and humanity.
01:08:34And I just think that that's such a beautiful thing because I think it's something we're all going to.
01:08:38It's such a thing we're all going to be having to confront very soon, if not already.
01:08:43And I just think you have a view of a perspective that's so fascinating and interesting and that we're all
01:08:50going to have to engage in that conversation sooner rather than later.
01:08:52Well, I'm definitely blushing, John. Thank you very much.
01:08:55For some reason, the first name that popped up was it was Nora Ephron and George Cukor.
01:09:00And I think because they, you know, both of them were kind of dismissed for doing women's pictures.
01:09:07And there's something about, you know, specifically for Nora, there is a clear kind of, you know, parallel in our
01:09:15career.
01:09:15She started off as a journalist and then started writing about her life.
01:09:18And then she wrote a screenplay for Hollywood and then she got to write and direct.
01:09:22And so just wanting to just sit with her over a meal that she cooks and, you know, ask her
01:09:29about everything, including what I should wear and what doctor I should go to.
01:09:34But then also like how she did it, what made her jump in, how did she learn?
01:09:39What did she learn? How did she get better? You know, those kinds of questions.
01:09:43I'd say Kurosawa. I would love to sit down with him. I'd have a lot of questions.
01:09:49And I think the biggest question is just that how how we managed to make things so powerful with such
01:09:55sort of seemingly simple stories and just kind of learn from that.
01:09:59The first name, I'm just going to say the first name that popped into my mind, because there were a
01:10:03lot of names right afterwards, which was Robert Altman.
01:10:07I've just I think he was one of the first filmmakers I watched, you know, when I started like around
01:10:15when I was a teenager, started watching movies and just really feeling like, oh, my God, I could just fall
01:10:22into these characters.
01:10:24And and, you know, the way that he kind of is able to explore character and have this kind of
01:10:33light naturalistic touch.
01:10:35But I don't know. I would just I'd love to spend a day with him.
01:10:40I was going to say Kurosawa. So Deborah, you blew me up. But it's true.
01:10:46I don't really understand. I watch his I go back to his films and watch them again.
01:10:49And I don't we try to do what we did samurai episodes in the second season of Westworld, which is
01:10:55one of the most enjoyable experiences of producer.
01:11:00I've gotten to participate in. I look back at those productions and I don't understand how he did them just
01:11:07extraordinary.
01:11:08And in those days when you didn't have the luxury of fixing it in post, just the ambition, the scale,
01:11:13the largest, but also the small human beauty that he smuggled in every frame.
01:11:18Incredible. Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us again.
01:11:21I know this was an unusual way to do this in this virtual setting, but I thought the conversation was
01:11:26wonderful.
01:11:27Thanks, guys.
01:11:28Thank you so much.
01:11:30Bye.
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