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00:02Welcome to the latest episode of Copper Independent, the Independence World Cup podcast.
00:07I'm Kieran Jackson and I'm joined by Chief Football writer Miguel Delaney to discuss
00:11England's last 32 tie against the Democratic Republic of the Congo on Wednesday and dissect
00:16the knockout games we've seen so far. I'm in Santa Clara ahead of the USA's game against
00:20Bosnia and Herzegovina on Wednesday night whilst Miguel is in Atlanta ahead of England's game.
00:25So we'll start right there. Migs, you've heard from Thomas Tuchel today in the press conference.
00:30What were the main takeaways from the press conference, I suppose? And is there any inkling
00:35as to which way Tuchel's going to go with his starting lineup?
00:37Well, I mean, I think what's most striking about Tuchel, and this is generally at the moment,
00:42is he's absolutely beaming. He's smiling. He's loving it. He spoke about how he just loves
00:47knockout football. He said it brings an edge and he's really relishing it. But the one thing about
00:53that is, I've been in a few of these situations with Tuchel, and when you're listening to him,
00:56he's very persuasive. And you kind of think, well, how could he possibly lose? And the reality of
01:01the football has maybe been a little bit different. And it's maybe like this, or it's a bit like this
01:05with this game as well. And that Tuchel's going into it, obviously, talking about how much he
01:09relishes knockout football. But, and he did admit this himself, to be fair, that it may not necessarily
01:15be a game that, well, if he enjoys it, the team and possibly the crowd and fans at home
01:21may not. Now, I know he's already spoken about wanting to kind of, wanting to sort of football
01:27that people in the pub enjoy. And today, given this game kicks off earlier, he spoke about
01:32how he wants kids to kind of, to enjoy it. But he did add a very significant caveat that
01:37he expects a similar game to Ghana and to Panama. The DR Congo are going to sit in, they're going
01:44to do it against Portugal and to a degree against Colombia. And as he put it, this could be a
01:48game
01:49that warrants patience, exactly like the Panama game. Yeah. So I think it could be, I mean, I have
01:55to say, my immediate expectation is exactly that. I think it'll be a 2-0 England, but one they're
02:00made to wait. But ultimately, quality will see them true. You only have to look at DR Congo's results
02:06and performance to show this is going to be more of a challenge that has been anticipated. Some of it
02:11has also actually been put into greater perspective, given that Johan Wisse, who's obviously the star
02:14of their campaign, and there's a few Premier League strands running through this, given the event
02:19of Premier League players in it, Wan-Bissaka, another kind of prominent one, Siddiqui. But Wisse,
02:23I mean, not only is he kind of the goal scorer, the star man, there's almost more of a narrative
02:27around him, given how this season went with Newcastle after the way he left Brentford. But he also put
02:34all of that into perspective. Like, in that way, they kind of, a World Cup and these sort
02:39of occasions emphasize, we're talking about how much this means to the country. I mean,
02:44he was referencing the war in the East, strife over years. The word he used was, or the phrase
02:49he used was, we deserve to play England, which they more than do. So, I mean, that in itself
02:55sets up a bit of an interest dynamic. And one that England, it's a game they're going to have
03:00to fight through, basically. And that, of course, in the context of this whole debate that is a
03:05classic one with England, and it's come up a lot, and maybe it kind of, well, it came up a
03:08lot in
03:08year 2024, over maybe the need to be convincing. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting. I
03:16actually saw today that in the DR Congo, they've actually put a ban on public gatherings due to
03:21the risk of Ebola, but they've actually gotten rid of that for the game on Wednesday, such is the
03:26magnitude of it. I mean, on paper, it doesn't look like much of a contest. England,
03:29are ranked fourth in the world, DR Congo are 46th. But the African side drew to Portugal. They
03:35only narrowly lost to Colombia, who won that group, and then they comfortably beat Uzbekistan. And
03:39as you said, Miguel, they've got Premier League proven players, kind of an ironic one with
03:43Aaron Wan-Bissaka, who was illegible for England, and England are lacking a right-back, and he'll
03:47be playing right-back for the DR Congo. They've got Tuan Zebi, Wisser, who you mentioned. The
03:51majority of their squad, I was looking today, play for well-established clubs across Europe. Do you
03:56think England are in for a tougher battle than England fans, both home and in the US, might think?
04:02Yeah, I would say exactly that. Also, I suppose some of that has been a little bit tempered,
04:05because the expectation, it was initially that it was going to be Ecuador, then that it was going to
04:10be Senegal, with Senegal having beaten England last year. So, I mean, having considered that,
04:16it seems more forgiving. But that doesn't mean it's going to actually be a forgiving game.
04:21And I don't think it is. And it's funny, I was kind of writing my build-up piece, my preview
04:27and
04:27all this. I was thinking, actually, about how Toulouse is sort of the unthinkable, if that's not a bit
04:34of a contradiction. Because I suppose, I mean, everyone has put Tuchel's entire managerial
04:41appointment with England in the context of winning a trophy, of getting there. He's specifically been
04:46signed because of his record in knockout football. He's won three knockout competitions. He's had a
04:52few good runs. And it is about getting England over the line. As he put it, I mean, he put
04:56it
04:56himself about how these games give you an extra edge. Well, he's supposed to give England that edge
05:00to get them over. So, I mean, I suppose this is so relevant to the fact this isn't going to
05:06be any
05:06sort of forgiving game. Because if England were to go out, I mean, given Tuchel a new contract even
05:11before this competition, were it to slip here, I mean, the implications, the potential repercussions
05:21would be huge, especially given everything it would represent. But with the way this tournament
05:26has gone, I suppose it shouldn't be considered a completely outlandish perspective, especially
05:31as you mentioned, given the team's recent record and the quality on show.
05:36You say it was the unthinkable. I'm sure many people thought it was unthinkable that England
05:39could lose to Iceland in Euro 2016, which, if you want a bad omen, was also the last time
05:44a major tournament had an expansion and England lost in that first round in the last 16. So,
05:50I don't think it's as incomprehensible as it might look on paper. In terms of Tuchel's team
05:56selection, Miguel, I don't know if there's any talk in the press conference or whether there's
06:00any talk amongst the press pack about which way he'll go with the wingers, whether it be Rashford
06:04or Gordon, Saka or Madueke. What's the hunch?
06:07So, my hunch is it's going to be Rashford and Saka back here. And we discussed the previous
06:11part. Now, that does change perspective a little bit on England's strength and depth.
06:16I mean, the most interesting one, I suppose, is Rice is going to be back. He's done media
06:19ahead of the game as well. And I suppose maybe the most complicated one for Tuchel is actually
06:24in right back. As you mentioned, Wan-Bissaka could have played there. Well, he's got Kwanza out
06:28now. Yeah, Rhys James obviously is going to make it maybe out to the quarterfinals should
06:32England get there. And hence, it's going to be Esri Kwanza or Jed Spence, who, I mean,
06:39to some degree, look, Jed Spence has been a right back in his career, but hasn't played
06:42there at this level for a few years. And Kwanza, he's a centre-half. So, one of them is going
06:47to have to be thrown in there, which kind of, again, kind of, with the way these things
06:53go, with the way these little upsets can go, sometimes it's those little twists that just
06:57sort of provide an opening for a side who are looking to cause an upset. Look, I have
07:01to say, I don't think England will get knocked out. You mentioned Iceland. It is a totally
07:07different context there, in part because of what the response to Iceland was. I mean,
07:11the whole, everything around England is completely different then, right down to the reality
07:15there. That was probably the last tournament where, without products of kind of the St.
07:21George's Park revolution, of kind of EPPP in the Premier League. We've spoken about
07:25this a lot on the podcast. And I think this is also relevant to these knockout rounds
07:29and that, you know, a defining feature of modern international tournaments is wealthy Western
07:35European countries who kind of industrialise talent production. And at the top of those at
07:40the moment are obviously France, who are already there, Spain and England. Germany were one of
07:45the originators, but they've actually, they've run into a few issues because essentially their
07:51system has gone a little bit stale. But that, even that does point, I mean, I thought the Germans
07:55were unlucky, but that does point to a little bit of, there is a little bit of a spirit of
08:00the
08:00upset about this last 32. And I suppose that's just one of their danger for England here.
08:06I suppose on the flip side, I think the first few days of the knockout round will do some good
08:11for the England team in terms of not being complacent. It's been quite clear no one would have backed
08:15Paraguay to beat Germany. So I think from that point of view, it could actually help England.
08:19I think since the draw in December, people have already penciled England in to be at the Azteca
08:24in July, as have we, Miguel, haven't we? So like, I think we've all got our plans for that. And
08:29I
08:29really hope that that comes to fruition. Let's take a quick, very quick break before coming back
08:33to discuss the standout knockout games so far. Welcome back to Copper Independent. And just three
08:40days into the knockout stages, we've already seen some shocks and plenty of drama. Brazil needed a
08:45second half fight back to overcome Japan. Erling Haaland scored a late winner for Noura against
08:50the Ivory Coast, but the biggest shocks have come with two European heavyweights crashing out.
08:54Let's start with the Germans. They lost to Paraguay on penalties, their first ever defeat
08:59in a World Cup penalty shootout. They were unimpressive in terms of their play, but perhaps a bit unlucky
09:04too, given they had that questionably disallowed goal in extra time via VAR. Germany now haven't won a
09:10knockout game at the World Cup since winning the tournament in 2014. Miguel, are they just in a
09:15bad rut in terms of their current squad and the quality they have to offer? Or is it something
09:20deeper than that? I mean, there is a lot of quality there. It's just a lot of the quality. And
09:24this
09:25is actually featured in a few countries. You could say this of England as well, actually. A lot of the
09:28quality is clustered in certain areas. Hence, they've had it under as a striker. I mean, I've written
09:34this before. I've heard about the Germans have been obsessed to try to develop strikers again. I've
09:38had to consult other countries about how you do it. And I think that, and there's an element
09:43of how maybe Das Reboot, which is, of course, I know, you know, from this kind of industrialization
09:49of talent production that we spoke about that came out in Germany in the early 2000s. It just
09:54maybe, with the way these things evolve and develop, it maybe got a bit too, it got funneled
10:03down a certain area, or funneled a certain idea. An idea obviously anchored to Pep Guardiola's
10:09positional game. And hence, one of the criticisms around Germany for the last decade has been,
10:12it's basically producing kind of too many universalist midfielders. A lot of these sort
10:16of eight out of ten players who can play in a lot of positions or number tens, with not
10:22enough specialists or range in the team. And that has almost kind of funneled the national
10:27side down this kind of way of playing, that they kind of struggle for outlets. And allied
10:32to that, I mean, this has obviously been a big debate in Germany over the past, this
10:37week and in previous tournaments, over whether it's actually this kind of almost hermetically
10:42sealed coaching environment is actually taking away the sort of eroding, the sort of kind
10:47of character or personality that's actually required to make a national team, but is obviously
10:52something that was very specific to Germany over years. Because, I mean, I have to say,
10:56it's a thought that I've had a few times over this World Cup. And I had it before it, and
11:02it's kind of emboldening me to kind of eventually write about this. Maybe we could do a bigger
11:05part about it. But this feels like a World Cup that's kind of, it's a bit of a, it's
11:10a hinged World Cup or a historic landmark World Cup for all sorts of reasons. And, you know,
11:15where it's held, three different countries, kind of ticket prices, all of this. But also
11:21maybe in terms of how it's kind of, it feels like a lot of traditional World Cup truths,
11:27the stuff we grew up with, the kind of, the canon, if you like, of the tournament, are
11:32now being, not just turning their head, but basically just being banished to be replaced
11:36by kind of, by new truths. They're kind of, so like, it's as if world football has moved
11:41into a truly different era. And I mean, what is more symbolic of that than anything, and
11:45it's been in the post for a while, is that the Germans lose a penalty shootout. The Germans
11:50don't win knockout games. They lack that sort of kind of, I mean, that steel they used to
11:56have. And you can add to that the fact that Italy don't qualify anymore. I mean, this is
12:01given it's three in a row. The fact that Brazil don't, I mean, like, for decades, Brazil
12:06were kind of the image of glamour in football. They're kind of like this, of this other level
12:11and also with the kind of, the, you know, a necessary kind of maybe exoticism or colour
12:16that being a South American side, or just an element of unfamiliarity brings. They've
12:21been replaced by Argentina in that sense. And as these three kind of, the three biggest
12:27World Cup powers, Italy, Germany and Brazil, subside of it. And I should caution that Brazil
12:31can still win it this year. But it feels like they've been replaced by actually teams that
12:37have been traditionally or historically had all sorts of neuroses and complexes underperformed.
12:42France being the biggest, obviously, they would, they would, for years, they were kind
12:45of just known as an artist, they were almost kind of known as kind of like, you know, tortured
12:50poets, great artistic sides that couldn't win anything. And which is maybe just a degree
12:54of irony in how good this team is. Similarly, Spain, Spain, like, I mean, they, at this point,
12:59they just kind of reel off European championships. They've only got that one World Cup, but they,
13:03they win trophies now. While England, while they're still waiting for that trophy, they
13:07kind of, they repeatedly go the distance in tournaments, in the way you would have expected
13:11all those other three. And I think that goes hand in hand with something else we've talked
13:15about in the podcast, which is how, you know, like, over most of World Cup history, the expectation
13:20these sort of ties was basically, the heavyweights would generally get through. So surprises
13:26were there, but they were rare. 2002 was the great exception to all this, but that was
13:31I think down to factors unique to that tournament from the conditions to the timing. But now,
13:37as we, again, we've talked about this, the fields, the general level has been raised.
13:42There's a very wide field and it feels like there's, maybe if there's only kind of two
13:46or three outstanding teams in this tournament, there's 15 to 16 very good teams. And that closing
13:51of the gap has led to situations like Germany being caught by Paraguay in that way, by Brazil
13:57going very close to going out against Japan. And it has created this kind of, this, this
14:03spirit around the tournament that, to be fair, Tuchel also said he had to be wary of and
14:08cautious of.
14:09Yeah, I mean, it was interesting, actually. I wrote yesterday after Germany lost to Paraguay
14:13that Thomas Hitzelsberger was, the former Germany international, was on BBC television talking
14:17about that, that kind of, the cycle of German midfielders who just look pretty, keep the
14:23ball. And he actually name-checked Pep Guardiola for when he was at Bayern Munich for bringing
14:28in this system of play. But there's no, there's no, there's no speed to the play. It's just
14:32keeping the ball, retaining possession. And there's no, there's no buzz about, about the
14:36German team. So it was quite interesting that he mentioned that. I mean, as for the Netherlands
14:41game against Morocco, it was, it was a pretty captivating watch. It was in the middle of the
14:45night in the UK, but it was a really good game for one all. Quite how the Dutch didn't
14:49get over the line, I do not know, both in normal time and on penalties. Like, some of
14:55the penalty misses, the unlucky save, no save. I mean, it's another tournament of regret
15:00for the Dutch.
15:02Yeah, I suppose there's another extra spit on that, I suppose, given that they were
15:06seeing, I think this is because some economists picked them, but they were seeing this kind
15:09of potential, the, the, the, the kind of, the team to pick to go, I have to say, I always
15:15felt that was a bit much given the attack. It was, given the attack, wasn't quite elite
15:19class, something that I suppose was borne out in the way these games went. But I suppose
15:23there's another kind of true...
15:24Don't trust AI.
15:25Yeah, well, exactly.
15:26Just don't trust AI. That's the answer.
15:27Yeah. But there's another true turn in its head, although it's been turned in its head
15:30for some time there. I mean, like, what Hitzelsberger is talking about, the Guardiola
15:35approach, I mean, that is essentially, that's a successor to, like, it's, it's, it's, it's a
15:41very direct lineage back to Cruyff's total football. And the Dutch, while they still
15:46have elements of that, or some principles, it's a long, it's, I mean, it's, it's two,
15:51more than two decades since they've played anything close to it. And like, hence, you
15:55know, Koeman goes into a game like that playing, you know, what, what, let's see with a five
15:58of the back at the start. And it's very much kind of like fitting around qualities.
16:02I mean, and they did, the one thing about that, I don't think, I know that's been cast
16:06kind of in a similar thing with, to Germany. I don't think that's an upset just
16:10because of the fact that that is, that was a game that actually could have been a
16:13semi-final. Netherlands-Morocco match. A semi-final may be pushing it a little bit, but
16:17there or thereabouts, certainly, certainly a quarterfinal. And it's just, that is pure
16:22look of the draw that, that they have to face each other this early. I have to say, actually,
16:26I felt a little bit similar about Ivory Coast-Norway. Like, it's a pity, basically,
16:32that one of them had to go out. Exactly how I felt with the Dutch-Morocco game, especially
16:37because you're going to have some inferior sides in this last 16.
16:41Yeah, like, so for example, the winner of Netherlands-Morocco will face Canada. So,
16:46you know, that would have been more realistic last 32 tie. As for France, we have to talk
16:51about France because they are by far and away the in-form team of this World Cup. And they
16:55beat Sweden 3-0. Kylian Mbappe at the double, again. Elise on fire. I mean, this is, I was
17:02trying to figure it out. I think this is even my sixth or seventh World Cup I can really
17:06remember watching. And I don't remember a more in-form team going into the latter stages
17:10of the World Cup. Maybe Germany 2014. Can you, Miguel?
17:15Yeah, and even Germany. So they had a two-all draw at Ghana. And Algeria pushed them really
17:21close in the last 16. And I don't think they quite hit France's levels, even though they
17:26got that 7-1 against Brazil. Spain, I think, could have been that level in 2010. But they
17:30were a little bit, they were stunted by the early defeat to Switzerland. It meant they had
17:34the change. It ensured every game was a psychological battle. And that's just not true with this
17:40French team. It's like they just go out and run. And I could, there's all sorts of
17:44audiences. There's something I'm going to write about this week, actually. But I mean, like
17:49going into this tournament, I'd written it myself, I'd say. Like, Euro 2024 looked like
17:53a tournament too far for Deschamps. It looked like his approach had gone stale. And he'd
17:57obviously had a set way for all of his tournaments, including getting to the two finals, to be
18:01fair. And now it's like in his last campaign, because he's leaving after this one, he's
18:07gone like almost anti-Deschamps. But there is, I mean, given he is seen as a pragmatist,
18:12it is actually the pragmatic approach. I mean, look, I think pragmatism is often a misunderstood
18:16word in football. It's not about being defensive. It's about kind of like adapting to what you've
18:20got. And he's got, like, he's got the best attacking. I mean, it's incredible. You
18:26probably, Ibrahimovic actually said this on Fox here, and I think he's right. I mean,
18:31they've got, of the best five attackers in the world, best five or six maybe, three of
18:35them are in their forward line. And that's, I mean, Mbappe, obviously, Dembele, and I
18:41don't want to call him the revelation of tournament, given this form has been in the
18:44post for the last few months for Bayern Munich. But I think what's so amazing about
18:48Elyse is that it's like, I can't remember a player whose status and effect and quality
18:58accelerated to this degree in modern times.
19:03It's unbelievable, isn't it? Unbelievable.
19:05Like someone said it to me today, they see that, you know, like even at Palace, he wasn't
19:09spoken about in the same way as, say, Eze was, or even if you want to go back a bit
19:14further, in the way Zaha was. And like, look, Eze, Eze, I love as a player.
19:18But he's not having the effect that Eze is. I mean, it's like the way he just kind
19:22of, the little balls, in fact, Eze is actually, he's arguably the one thing England are
19:26missing in attack, out of all the players they've got, that ability to play those
19:29little passes. And it's, and the way he just links that whole team together, the
19:35way he, or links are maybe the wrong word, it's the way he kind of makes them
19:38flow and provides that platform where they're all like these great attackers.
19:42And then, of course, if you take any of those three off, you've got Due, you've got
19:46Barker. But can you, can you think of anyone like that, that just exploded in
19:50that way?
19:51No, I'm trying to transfer my memory a little bit. Like, absolutely not. I mean,
19:56I completely agree with the Palace comparison. It was always that trio, wasn't it? And he
19:59wasn't seen in a higher regard than Zaha or Eze. And it's just the way he glides with
20:05the ball and the personality he has on the pitch. He's never scared to make a wrong pass
20:10for risk of losing it. He's always bold. He's always going forwards. I mean, like we
20:15said, the French just look unbelievably hard to stop. They've next got Paraguay. Best of
20:20luck to Paraguay, I think it's fair to say.
20:22I mean, yeah, yeah. Look, you have to think that. I mean, Paraguay, let's be fair, and it
20:26got fortunate against Germany, especially with the disallowed goal, which maybe should
20:29put some of the German debate into perspective. But, yeah, it looks like they're going to
20:34be demolished, I'd say. Yeah, there's no other way to put it. It's the way they're playing
20:42with such freedom. From that, though, there is one point of caution. Because they're obviously
20:48at this point now, they're very much the team of the tournament. In a way, the World Cup
20:53maybe hasn't had in a while. Argentina with Messi in 22 was a different sort of thing.
20:58And it's been entertaining. Brazil 2002? Is that what you'd be thinking of?
21:03Maybe, but even that felt a little bit different for me. Like, Jack, our sports editor, people
21:08will now know from the podcast as well. He mentioned to me that 2002 was a comparison. But
21:13I did feel that that team was a bit more tactically rigid. To me, like, you reach into history from
21:20before I can actually remember, but I know from watching. Like, they feel like Brazil 82.
21:26We've already mentioned Netherlands 1974 and just how much they're captivating a tournament
21:30to the quality of their play. But the obvious difference, of course, is that a lot of these
21:34players have actually won the World Cup before, including Mbappe. And hence, you're kind of
21:37marrying this, like, this deal, this experience with actually something artistic, something,
21:45you know, that takes something that takes them to a higher level. Because, I mean, you know,
21:49we mentioned how the old truths are going to be replaced by new realities. And one of them
21:54is actually that France are sort of like what Germany used to be, in that they're always
21:59there, thereabouts, a tough game, you can guarantee you're going to have a battle. But now they've
22:03got more than that. And we are talking about if they can do this, we're going to be talking
22:09about, like, one of the, not just one of the great international sides of all time, but one of the
22:12best World Cup winners ever. Yeah, I suppose the only solace is that maybe they might have
22:16peaked a bit too early. Like, there's still four matches to go. So, I mean, in the grand scheme
22:21of an eight-game tournament, there's still a long way to go. But even with that, I suppose,
22:25because suddenly even when we were kind of doing it, the bracket and all that, and kind of
22:28the last 32 became clear, it did feel like that England, say, were on the more forgiving
22:34side of the draw, and the French, good as they are, were on the kind of more difficult side.
22:39But now suddenly, look, I don't want to be disrespectful to Paraguay, but, like, the very
22:45fact they don't have to play Germany in the next game, like, no matter how, what you think of Germany
22:49right now, there's obviously all sorts of kind of historical weight to that for France. Like, it would
22:54be, like, it would be a game with more context around it. The very fact, suddenly it just, it feels
23:00like it's that bit freer. Then, to be fair, it's Morocco again, and then potentially Spain or
23:05Portugal or Croatia. But, yeah, like, it does feel like it's increasingly being set up for
23:10them. But the one thing I would say, though, as well, if it is eventually Spain that plays
23:14them, Spain have not been great so far. They've had spells. We're going to see them play on
23:19Thursday. But someone in football said it to me today, if Spain do get into a groove and
23:25keep the ball, France could have a bit of a problem, because the engine of that team
23:29is, you know, it's Chumani and Rabiot. It's a two-man midfield. If they come up against
23:33Spain's three, that's where suddenly you get kind of a bit of a tactical configuration that
23:38could actually change these games. But we've got a lot of ifs until then, and at least whether
23:42Spain can even find form at all. Yeah, it's interesting. I think we're probably a bit too
23:46early to put France's name on the trophy. If one thing this tournament has shown, it's about
23:50shocks. I've been covering USA tomorrow with playing against Bosnia. On paper, it just seems
23:56like an obvious win for USA. But Bosnia are never-say-die team. They beat Wales after being on the
24:02verge of going out. They beat Italy on penalties. Beat both on penalties. So USA wouldn't want
24:06it to go the distance, that's for sure. And so it's one where, much like we said with England
24:11and the DR Congo, like, don't count your chickens. Just stay a bit patient.
24:16I would say that game is incomparable to England. Like England are a team that have been in two
24:21European finals. The USA are not at that level, as good as they've been in this tournament.
24:26And I have to say, so I went, for my predictions in my newsletter, which people can't subscribe
24:30to, of course, I should mention that. I went for Bosnia to knock out USA on penalties.
24:35So you got one of your emails actually complaining about that.
24:38You're penciling me in for like a 1,000-word piece afterwards and what went wrong?
24:43Yeah, yeah. What are the stories? What is the feel where you are?
24:47I think it's just absolute optimism. Just throughout California, literally in airport
24:52lounges, hearing everyone over talk about the World Cup and about how good the US have been
24:56so far, like Uber drivers, people in sports bars. It's not about, wasn't about the NBA,
25:01not about the MLB. It's all about the World Cup. And yeah, there's such an overriding sense
25:05of optimism that maybe they're waiting for a fool, the US team and the US public. But we'll see.
25:10You can feel it in Atlanta here as well, actually. I mean, when I got to the hotel, I turned
25:14it on
25:14today. Like, obviously, Fox, where you watch most of the World Cup, they show kind of the
25:18national stream. But then they also like, they've got kind of localised versions. So they're
25:23shown a lot, like from Atlanta. Oh, it's a goal for Mexico. Sorry.
25:27Good. You want to keep that in? I mean, this is live air.
25:31I think we'll keep it in. We should have said at the start that we are recording in the first
25:34half
25:34of the delayed Mexico versus Ecuador game. And Mexico have just gone 1-0 up.
25:39The rig is the World Cup when you've got things timed and you've got storm delays and all that.
25:43But yeah, in Atlanta, there's real excitement. And it does feel, I mean, it is quite a spread
25:49out city when, like, it's one of those Central American cities where the downtown feels a
25:53bit spread out. It's not like, obviously not like New York or Boston in terms of how constant
25:56spread of things are. But yeah, there is very much a football feel about it.
26:00Yeah, there'll be a beauty to the World Cup, I think, if there's three hosts, if one of
26:04them can make a deep run as well. Like, the US could get to the quarterfinals quite feasibly.
26:09I mean, Mexico, if they get through against Ecuador, will probably play England on Sunday.
26:13So it's a bad tournament, isn't it, for a host getting through to the latter stages.
26:16Well, we'll wrap it up there, as Miguel is desperate for some shut-eye before England's
26:22big game tomorrow, even though you'll be watching Mexico.
26:27The equation's changed.
26:29Yeah, exactly. So thank you to Jamie McDonald, our producer, for his continued hard work in
26:34producing the podcast, which is part of the Independent Podcast Network. So do go check
26:37it out. And on Wednesday night or Thursday morning, we will review what will hopefully be
26:41an England victory. So see you soon.
26:47Bye-bye.
26:47Bye-bye.
26:47Bye-bye.
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