- 7 minutes ago
Geologist and science communicator Professor Chris Jackson has spoken about why he remains optimistic about humanity's ability to tackle climate change, despite the scale of the challenge.
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00:00Hi everyone, I'm here with Professor Chris Jackson, who among his incredibly long set of achievements is speaking at Latitude
00:11Music Festival this year, obviously better known for pop music and all of those things, but he's a rock star
00:17himself, as I think we'll get into.
00:23But it would be great to start first off with how you got here, how you got to Latitude, but
00:28also how you got to being such an accomplished scientist.
00:34I don't know, my accomplished scientist, I'm still working on that, but how do I get into geoscience and geology
00:41in general?
00:42I don't really have a kind of romantic backstory of collecting fossils and rocks on the beach on holiday, so
00:48some people have that as their origin story.
00:51They were always interested in dinosaurs and volcanoes and things, and I never had that, I was a very distracted
00:55child, very physically active sport, took up 90% of my life growing up.
01:02But when I look back, I guess one set of experiences I did have that led to me doing geology
01:08was, I spent a lot of time outdoors, so I spent a lot of time camping and caravanning in the
01:13Derbyshire Peak District near where I'm from.
01:15And maybe it's that exposure to the natural world which kind of interested me initially, but at that time I
01:23didn't know geology was a science you could study,
01:25and I certainly didn't know that knowing about geology could help us understand ourselves better and help us understand things
01:33like climate change and how we use the Earth's resources appropriately.
01:36So, it was really a stumbling into geology that I had. It wasn't really a well planned path and very
01:45much a sliding doors moment for me.
01:47You know the film with Gwyneth Paltrow, the kind of chance encounter I had was when I went to A
01:53-level college and I went to this big sports hall to look at all the subjects that you could possibly
01:58study at this college.
01:59And I just turned to my right and there was a guy there, nobody at his table, but he had
02:03like a volcano and some dinosaurs and things.
02:05And his name was Robin Sedgwick and he ended up being my geology teacher, but he said, oh, you know,
02:09come over here, come and have a word for me.
02:10And that was it. And then you just talked me into it. I think that's how, I think that's the
02:15start of how I got here.
02:16It was just, yeah, a bit of initial exposure to the world around me and then a very fortuitous encounter.
02:23Yeah, yeah. And I suppose lots of people probably maybe have that view of geology that maybe you had before
02:29you saw those volcanoes.
02:30That it's kind of long dead, under our feet, you know, maybe doesn't matter as much to the world today.
02:37It certainly doesn't matter to who we are and all those sorts of things.
02:39Absolutely. And you know, you made the journey yourself, Rockstar, right?
02:42So when you think of geology and you think of rocks, and rocks are an important part of geology, they
02:46are these like time capsules of the long distant earth.
02:50But, you know, there's lots of other things that we can use geological knowledge to do.
02:54And that's like, you know, we can use it to find water. We can use it to find things that
02:57power our lives.
02:58So, you know, there's lots of other bits of geology that are kind of hidden within it that I think,
03:04you know, we don't often think about.
03:06I think the other thing about geology is it's often viewed as very boring and slow.
03:10And that's because, you know, it's beneath our feet. We can't see it.
03:12And if we can see it in the mountainside, it just sits there.
03:16And I went to the same place a year later and it was still there.
03:19You know, it seems really quite static and quite boring until it isn't when there's a volcanic eruption or an
03:26earthquake.
03:27And then suddenly the earth really kicks into gear and it's in its catastrophe.
03:30So I do think geology almost has that image problem, if you will, that it's poorly understood.
03:36And therefore there's a couple of things which stick with it and kind of stereotypes in a way.
03:41But beneath all of that, there's some incredible, incredible things, which is why I do it.
03:45Yeah. And what are those? Because as I sort of mentioned, we're speaking ahead of Latitude,
03:49which is the official news partner, and you're going to be competing with four times of a different kind.
03:57Competing with David Gray.
04:00How are you going to beat David Gray?
04:02How am I going to beat David Gray? Well, if you want to learn something.
04:06I won't take my guitar because I'm not going to be a better guitar player than David Gray.
04:10I think what I'm going to try and tell the audience of Latitude is about that magic of geology
04:14and try and bring it to life for them.
04:17So, you know, one thing we, you know, it's the existential crisis of our time is climate change.
04:23And you might think that geology has no role to play in understanding climate change.
04:27In fact, you probably think geology is the cause of climate change because of the finding and use of fossil
04:32fuels.
04:33So, but actually, one reason we know that the planet is, you know, one reason we know how and why
04:40the planet is warming
04:41and what the outcomes of that warming planet could be is by looking at the rock record.
04:47It's by looking at how Earth's climate has changed over geological time and how life on Earth has responded or
04:52not to those changes.
04:54And, you know, the extinctions that have arisen when the planet was warmed catastrophically.
04:58It's only through that lens do we really understand what we are in now, what may it look like in
05:03the future.
05:03So it's trying to bring, it's trying to show geology off a bit more and celebrate it through the lens
05:10of like very contemporary problems.
05:11So, you know, I mentioned already resources, water, you know, not just in the UK, but globally, you know, to
05:18find, you know, water that's safe to use, you need geological sciences to do that.
05:26And again, I don't, I never thought about that, certainly when I, before I started studying this.
05:30So trying to like find the way geology is in people's everyday lives is really the kind of thing I'm
05:35going to try and do.
05:36Yeah. And you mentioned both the fossil fuel industry and climate change.
05:40You obviously have a deep look for and deeper maybe than anybody else knowledge of that environment.
05:45You are now working in the fossil fuel industry for reasons we'll, we'll touch on later, your exit from, from
05:50academia.
05:51Yeah. But how, how did those two interests and passions and principles kind of play off against each other? Is
05:57there any compromise there?
05:58Yeah, it's a difficult situation. So I did a PhD in geology because I was just interested in it.
06:03And one of the things that that geological knowledge I acquired during my PhD could be useful was to find
06:07oil and gas.
06:08And I guess at that time, the link between fossil fuel use and climate change was arising in the consciousness
06:14of people.
06:15But it certainly wasn't, you know, as widespread as it is now.
06:19And I think I just took my knowledge and I thought, okay, I just like solving problems.
06:22And one problem to solve is finding oil and gas.
06:24And I hadn't then made the connection between that and then, you know, climate change.
06:29And so over the 25 years since that point, since I kind of finished my PhD, I have, like many
06:35people, become much better educated about that causal link between fossil fuel use and climate change.
06:41The kind of changes we need to make and the opportunities there are to still apply geological sciences to providing
06:47energy and providing heat for people, but through other means, through lower carbon technologies, green technologies.
06:54So I find that really exciting. And that is, I guess that's been my journey away from my initial kind
07:00of work in the fossil fuel industry.
07:03But I know it's not something I feel ashamed about. It's not something I feel, you know, I'd ever want
07:08to not talk about because I think it's like all sciences, right?
07:13You're presented with new data, you assess those new data, and you can revise your position, and then you go
07:19forward again.
07:20So, you know, I'd like to think that that change in my career pathways has been informed in the way
07:27scientists should be.
07:28Yeah, absolutely. And is there, I mean, as we're talking about climate change, you don't want to get too down
07:34at, but it sounds like you're very excited actually about the kind of solutions and opportunities that we might have
07:41to treat the environment a bit better.
07:43I mean, how amazing is it? It's one of the, it's one of the, it's a huge challenge, and wouldn't
07:48be incredible if in 20, 50, 100 years time, human kind could look back and say, there was this problem,
07:54and we adapted a number of different things, including our behaviours, including our, you know, practical things about, you know,
08:02what sort of cars we drive, but also our behaviours and our, the way we thought about ourselves in the
08:07context of the planet. And we, and we tackled that problem, and we solved it. I mean, it's an incredible
08:13challenge.
08:13It's an incredible kind of turn, like, you know, the second half comeback, you know, like, it's like the first
08:18half was, was all doom and gloom, and we got ourselves in a hole, and then we kind of dug
08:21ourselves out. And I think that is the thing I very much hold on to is that, is that optimism,
08:28and I think that optimism is required to allow us to make those changes and to, and to drive forward
08:33the science and the engineering that's needed to, to, to tackle this problem. So, yeah, I do feel, I feel
08:41sad when I see bits of
08:43and it's not happening as quickly as it should, but I do feel, I still remain optimistic.
08:47Yeah, and I suppose that's also, I mean, obviously, you're here as a science communicator, you'll be at Latitude communicating
08:54science. I mean, it feels maybe more important than ever to be doing that work, precisely because, as you say,
09:00these fixes aren't going to come from, they're going to come from people we might think of as, as, as
09:05somewhere else in the university.
09:06Like, it's very clear, the future of human civilisation, exactly, is in our hands.
09:13No, I do, I sometimes joke about geologists being superheroes, you know, like, we've got to come in and this
09:18is our moment, this is when there's the burning building with, like, the children inside, you know, we've got to
09:22go in and, like, this is, this is the time for us to, to, to get public, you know, not
09:27just be doing things behind the scenes and, you know, tinkering, weighing labs and at the top of mountains and
09:31doing experiments and doing things like that.
09:33It's actually going out and talking to the public and making it really clear the role we play as scientists,
09:39but also the role that people play as well to tackle these problems.
09:42I often think about it like, you know, during COVID, you know, virologists, immunologists, these people who you never, you
09:49know, I've heard the words, but I didn't know they lived next door.
09:51And then suddenly every day, they're on TV telling you about, you know, some R number, this and that.
09:58And suddenly you just realised how important those things were in your life because it was the thing that was
10:02challenging you the most at that time as a member of the public.
10:05You weren't allowed out of your house, right?
10:07And you couldn't see friends.
10:08And so suddenly these people became, they were like the prophets, right?
10:13They were the ones coming to tell you the news of the day.
10:15And I, you know, I don't, you know, geology, you know, we need a range of things to tackle climate
10:20change, of course.
10:21There's certainly geologists, I think, a group of people who have historically been unknown to the public, but, you know,
10:30through foul means, you know, unfair in the future, maybe, we have had and will play a role in a
10:37warming and then hopefully a cooling planet.
10:38Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because how much, I mean, you know, as you sort of suggest that geology has, I
10:45mean, maybe arguably something of a kind of stain of having helped that in the first place, right?
10:50Absolutely.
10:51And how people will fix it.
10:52But is that, is that kind of, you know, when you're among colleagues, is there a sense of kind of
10:58any, I mean, collective guilt might be too much, but, you know, a kind of stain on the field?
11:04Yeah, I think, yes, I think, I think it's split. I think, I think some people find that very hard
11:10to deal with because they live through a time where the discovery and use of fossil fuels powered, you know,
11:17economic development, it powered, you know, the education system, health, you know, lots of things that happened because of that
11:24financial enrichment, enrichment that came from the discovery and use of fossil fuels.
11:29So they can, they, they have that view and rightly so, you know, there were some benefits that came with
11:35that, right?
11:36So I think some of those people may be finding harder to, to critique that.
11:41Yeah.
11:42Whereas some people were involved in that and can critique it still and they're still happy to say, yes, we
11:47did that, we went beyond this, this, this kind of like cutoff point and now we need to reuse our
11:53skills for something else.
11:54So there, there, there's a range of people. So I think I sympathise with, with all of those viewpoints, really.
12:02I mean, my view is, I think we should critique it. I think we should critique it. I think we
12:06should take the learnings of how we assess what's in the earth and how we use the resources in the
12:11earth and we should apply it to a different set of technologies.
12:14And that's, that's really where the future lies for our discipline. Um, cause I don't think we're going to be
12:19producing all the gas for the next 200 years and using that as our primary source of power.
12:22I think, um, at least not everywhere in the world, you know, it will happen at different, um, happen in
12:27different places at different paces. Um, so I do, I do think there's a kind of, there is a bit
12:33of a reckoning that's going on and there are internal arguments as you can probably detect from, you know, the
12:39experiences I've had around this.
12:40Yeah. Yeah. And as we're talking about your experiences and I don't mean to just keep impugning geology, but obviously,
12:47uh, you are, um, you know, one of very few kind of prominent black scientists that has brought its own
12:54challenges.
12:54I wonder if you could speak a little about the racism you've experienced from, from within the field.
13:00Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of odd because you think if you kind of, you know, you go to
13:03school and work hard or you're lucky in my case, I mean, you go to university, you get a PhD,
13:09you get all of these different certificates.
13:10And then you think maybe you become immune from, from, uh, immune from the color of your skin, if I
13:16can put it that way.
13:17So racism will be something that's left behind, but it's not, it just like manifests in different ways and occurs
13:22in, in, um, you know, cause you don't walk around with certificates in your hands to show people, you know,
13:27they just see a black person.
13:28So yeah. So through some of the experiences I've had, um, I think, I think one of the most common
13:35experiences I've had is that being a black scientist in science spaces,
13:40where there's not typically lots of black people, but in science in general, but also in geology specifically, when I've
13:45been in those spaces,
13:46some people have doubted my credibility or they've questioned who I am. Like, oh, I'm here to give a talk.
13:51Oh, actually the people, you know, you need to be downstairs.
13:54You know, no, I'm, I'm the actual speaker. I mean, I'm here to give the talk, you know, and, and
13:58there is a, there is a stereotyping that occurs.
14:01And that's a, that's a form of racism. That's kind of not being called a name in the street or
14:07physically assaulted, but it is a, you know, what we would refer to as a microaggression,
14:10where somebody just doubts your credibility because of how you present. And so I'd say that's the most common one,
14:16but there has been more, um, more, I'd say scary and more intimidating,
14:23you know, threatening letters through the post and questioning, um, my credibility as a scientist and thinking that the opportunities
14:30I've come my way have only been because I'm black.
14:32And, you know, I don't think I'm a very good geologist, right? But like somebody sending me a letter through
14:36the post to tell me that because I'm black.
14:40It's, um, it's something else. So, um, yeah, I've experienced it in a number of ways, but it's, it's just,
14:45it's kind of something that follows you around slightly.
14:47Yeah, yeah. No, I'm sorry. It's horrible. Um, I mean, you'd hope maybe that, you know, the science community, you
14:55know, should be kind of,
14:56we'd like to think of them as open-minded, interested only in what people are producing. Is there a sense
15:02in which, you know,
15:03it sounds from the way you're talking that it's maybe even less, less kind of open-minded and maybe more
15:11charged with racism than one might think from society more broadly?
15:14Is that, it's hard, it's hard because I think, I think there's some people who, I think there's some people
15:24like, so scientists, right?
15:25They're like data and they're like numbers, right? So they, they, they, you know, the kind of qualitative descriptions of
15:30what racism is like and how it's experienced by people.
15:33They don't count that because what they want to see is graphs and numbers and like how many racist incidents
15:37have there been.
15:37And then we can make a case of racism and we can bring them both and they still might not
15:41believe it.
15:42I also think there's people who, when we talk about inequality, and this is not just through the lens of
15:48racism,
15:48but it can be about gender identity, sexual identity, whatever it is, their careers have been built on them being
15:55the dominant group.
15:57And then for somebody to then turn around and say, well, actually there's this other group of people who aren't
16:01represented in this space because of these historical inequalities, number one.
16:07And number two, that actually casts a bit of shadow on your achievements because you're in this space.
16:12But actually if these people were all in here, you might not be, they, they find that very difficult.
16:16I think sometimes the response to that is hostility and that can manifest, you know, in my case as racism
16:21where people then start to doubt your credibility and they,
16:25they feel that you're undermining the pedestal on which their achievements have been, are confounded and they find that very
16:33difficult.
16:34So I would say, you know, yeah, it's, it's, it's possibly the most disappointing form of racism to encounter is
16:43amongst so-called educated groups.
16:47And that's not to give a pass for these, this kind of discrimination at all, but for some reason, for
16:55the reason you asked in your question,
16:56you kind of expect that people would be more like alert to those things, more, more, more aware of them
17:03and more, but I think you just find that it's just, I think you'd find as many races in those
17:09high offices and the racism just expresses differently.
17:14Unfortunately.
17:15Yeah.
17:15Which I suppose is a useful reminder to all of us, right?
17:17That you can have all of this great knowledge and what you might think, great insight into all of those
17:23things, but you can be carrying around, you know?
17:25Yeah, absolutely.
17:26Yeah, yeah.
17:28You just reminded me of this, you just remind me of something which will absolutely not make the edit for
17:33very, for lots of reasons, which I will, you become very clear, but Kanye West, he had a song called
17:39All Falls Down, which was his first album.
17:42And he had a line in that song, which was like, even if you're in a bench, you're still a
17:45nigger in a coop and like Kanye West, that line speaks to exactly that experience of, you can get all
17:52of these things.
17:53In his case, becoming a millionaire rapper, in my case, getting a certificate saying, I don't know, I've got a
17:57PhD, you know, but you will still be, people will still regress you back.
18:02No matter your treatments, you'll still be viewed through the, what people see as the lowest, the lowest bit of
18:07your identity.
18:07Yeah, yeah.
18:09And I mean, maybe, hopefully, it would be interesting to know if you think this is true, but like, science
18:15communication, I hope, can be something of an antidote to that, right?
18:19Because, I mean, you're on stages, showing that those things aren't true, that you are, you know, all those expectations
18:27are wrong.
18:28And hopefully, speaking to people who might find these spaces, generally, I mean, not just out-putting, but outright hostile,
18:35like the sounds of it.
18:35But how do you, how do you kind of bridge that, that work of doing science communication and hopefully bringing
18:41in people who might otherwise feel left out?
18:44Yeah, I think there's a, I think there's a huge responsibility and I think it's exactly as you describe it,
18:48it's a two-fold mission when you go on stage for, to do science communication.
18:52For some people, it's probably just a singular mission. I'm here to communicate science.
18:56I personally feel that when I'm on stage, my job is knowing me to try and leave, let the audience
19:02leave that room feeling super smart, super clever, you know, like feeling really good about themselves having learned something.
19:08That's like, it's not about me, it's about them leaving this space, being excited about what they heard and telling
19:14somebody else about it and just feeling smarter, you know.
19:17Then I've done my job. My second bit of my mission, though, is to, is to represent, you know, is
19:23to represent black people in that forum, because again, like I say, we're not represented widely in those forums.
19:31So I do feel that additional pressure of performance, you know, there's a performance of am I informing the audience
19:37correctly and scientifically accurately and, you know, are they leaving, are they smiling, are they asking, are they nodding during
19:43my talk?
19:43So there's that, but there's also, you know, my deepest fear is that somebody would leave a space where I've
19:49been communicating science going, well, this is why you shouldn't have black scientists, you know, this guy was, you know,
19:54he was just there on the, you know, they just picked him.
19:56That, that is like worse than somebody saying, oh, he got that bit on his graph wrong when he was
20:02describing it or something like that I can live with, because there's always a chance to come back from that
20:07and to, you know, there's always another talk and, you know, we write papers, there's other forms of science communication.
20:13But that, that for me is, is, is what's kind of scares me the most is that, is that, you
20:19know, even this, you know, it's just like deeply terrifying for me.
20:23I've stood up in front of lots of thousands of people and talked about science, but, you know, one-on
20:27-one talking about these other things.
20:30It's just, you know, it's just, it's, it's another thing that if you had a white scientist sitting in this
20:35chair talking to you about this event, this wouldn't, you know, you know,
20:39they may have other axes of their identity, but it's probably, it's possibly, you know, it's maybe less likely to
20:44come up.
20:44Yeah.
20:45Yeah.
20:45These other things.
20:46Yeah.
20:46And I mean, I don't mean to keep hammering on about it, partly because of that, but it, that feels
20:50like an awful lot of responsibility to be carrying around.
20:52Like, you, you feel like you're the kind of representative, which I mean, you know, in, in, in statistical factual
20:58terms, you are, because the, the, the.
21:00Yeah, yeah.
21:00Science isn't lame for various reasons, some of which.
21:03Yeah.
21:03And then whether it's, whether it's science communication or it's, um, it sounds really stupid.
21:10It sounds very stupid, but like just being polite to people and opening doors for people and helping people with
21:15their bags on the tube on the way here.
21:17You know, like a lot of those actions, I'd like things just because I'm a nice guy, but I honestly
21:23do feel that still being black in, in contemporary Britain,
21:29but I guess I've always wanted to, I've always, I guess I've always been slightly aware that I've been a
21:34bit lucky through my life.
21:36And there's opportunities that I've come that could have been afforded to other people.
21:40And, you know, and I, I, I've kind of said this before, but, you know, it's not that I'm the
21:46only black geologist and there's never been any black geologists before me.
21:49Right.
21:50There have been.
21:51And it's just that there's some of the opportunities that have come to me to talk about these issues haven't
21:56been afforded to those people.
21:57And they, you know, probably would have done the same, if not a better job than me of talking about
22:01it.
22:01It's just that, you know, that hasn't been, been something they've managed to, they've had access to.
22:07So now it's important to talk about.
22:10Yeah.
22:10Yeah.
22:11And I mean, hopefully it means that not just we're able to talk about it, but people are listening.
22:15Yeah.
22:15Which is maybe fresh as well.
22:17Yeah.
22:17And that's, I think this is part of like the different forums of where we talk about science and talk
22:22about, you know,
22:24identity and the importance of identity in science is we need to take that message into lots of different forums.
22:30Latitude is one of those big festival kind of, you know, it's an expensive event to go to.
22:38Let's not, let's not, let's not be shy about that.
22:41You know, you know, you can take it there.
22:43You know, you can take it on TV to some big glossy production, very expensive, very infrequent.
22:47But then, you know, we can go to a local pub and do science talks in pubs or in cafes.
22:53Or we can go into things like the Women's Institute or something and go and talk in, on a much
22:58smaller scale with 10 or 15 people.
23:00That is science communication too.
23:02Talk to your friends in the pub or your family at dinner.
23:05You know, that's science communication as well.
23:07We need to talk about these things in all of these different forums, I think, because we can't rely on
23:12any one approach
23:13because the audiences are different in all of those different locations.
23:17Yeah, and as we're talking about forums, let's talk a bit about what you're actually planning to do at Latitude.
23:22Yeah.
23:22First, on a kind of zoomed out level, I mean, we sort of gestured it earlier, but it might not
23:27be the most academic space.
23:31You know, you're probably not too excited to say.
23:33No, I'm learning how to play the guitar by watching all the people who can play the guitar on stage.
23:37But does that, I mean, does that pose kind of challenges and presumably opportunities too in terms of how you're
23:43actually presenting this stuff?
23:44I mean, people probably aren't going to want to get into precise striations of rocks and that sort of thing.
23:51No, I think, so I think the thing to do, the opportunity that Latitude presents is that you have all
23:57of those people there.
23:58And I think people who go to a festival like Latitude, yes, they're there for the music, but they are
24:03very inquisitive people.
24:04Latitude is multidimensional. It's not just a straight-up music, like it's not like going to, I don't know, like
24:10some radio shows like Summertime Party where it's just music, you know.
24:13There is art. There is, like, mindfulness tents. There's a wide array of food, you know.
24:18There is the, you know, there's the shambles sort of science for us.
24:22So you've got all of these areas and people pass by them, you know, they pass by them.
24:27And if they're inquisitive and it's nearby, they'll drop in and then they'll engage.
24:31So I do think it's the perfect sort of melting pot to pick up a few science stragglers and bring
24:37them into that science space.
24:39And I think they're right for it because I think if you go to an event like Latitude as opposed
24:42to many other different music festivals,
24:44I think that's a big reason you're there is to learn about other things.
24:48So for me, my job with that is to, you know, when they come in, is to give them something
24:55to feel joyful about, I think.
24:58I mean, it's partly, you know, science is partly about information, data, learning.
25:04But science can be a source of great joy and inspiration, you know.
25:07It can be, there can be good news stories in science and there can be humour in science, of course,
25:14right.
25:15Science can make you laugh, you know, the history of science, the people who've done the science, what we found
25:19out was odd, you know.
25:20It didn't quite go how we thought.
25:22This is part of the scientific method that nobody talks about.
25:24So why not bring all of those emotions together?
25:26And I think that's the unique opportunity, like, experience people can have at some of Latitude.
25:31Yeah, yeah, it's so true because I think he, you know, we've talked a lot about being in these rarefied
25:36spaces.
25:37You often realise that actually there's quite a lot of weirdos and doing very strange things.
25:41Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:43It's not just kind of clever people being sensible and...
25:47No.
25:49I mean, like, there's some people who take themselves incredibly seriously.
25:53And there are some learner societies, professional societies that take themselves incredibly seriously.
25:58God bless them, right?
25:59I mean, like, there's space for those people in science, too.
26:02You know, like, people's life's mission to do this or...
26:06You know, fine.
26:08They need those spaces.
26:09Those spaces have access to people that some of the, you know, groups don't have.
26:14But they're not the inclusive spaces of all of these other forums we've talked about,
26:19like Latitude Music festivals, like kind of folk festivals, like, you know, science festivals that are held in pubs and
26:26things or cafes.
26:27Like, they are very important spaces, too.
26:31And, you know, if you can't...
26:33I think if you can't laugh at yourself, you can't critique yourself.
26:37Yeah.
26:37And if you can't critique yourself, you can't be a scientist.
26:39Yeah, yeah.
26:40There you go.
26:41You've got to laugh if you're a scientist.
26:42I think that humility as a scientist is really important because you've got to be open to being wrong.
26:51Yeah.
26:52And getting things wrong.
26:55And somebody telling you that is hard to hear, you know, after you talk or when you write a paper.
27:01It's hard to hear, but you've got to be able to...
27:03And you've got to take that away and have that humility to go again.
27:06And, you know, it's like talk.
27:07Science communication is the same.
27:08You know, sometimes I've given a bad talk and it upsets me because then, you know, I want to get
27:13up and, like, try and do it again.
27:14And you reflect on why it can improve it.
27:17And as you suggest, that can be so much more of a healthy, helpful process with humour happening, right?
27:23Yeah.
27:23And you're sternly saying, Chris, you got this chart slightly wrong.
27:27Yes, exactly.
27:28I mean, news can be...
27:29Just as long as bad news is given in the right way, you know, that's the essence of the feedback,
27:34right?
27:34Is that it's done with the intention of making the thing better.
27:37And it can be done with a smile on your face and a bit of humour about it.
27:40And that requires a degree of trust between you and the person giving you the feedback.
27:44But absolutely, it can...
27:46That can be part of a scientific method.
27:48You mentioned the joy that you're going to offer to them.
27:52Yeah.
27:52Is there any...
27:53I don't want to spoil you for it.
27:55But if we're talking to latitude goers and trying to lure them away from David Gray...
28:01Yeah.
28:01Actually, it's not that joyful a person.
28:03I was just great, but...
28:05What's the...
28:07Do you have any kind of the snatches of joy that you would be able to offer them?
28:12What's the most joyful, exciting...
28:15Yeah.
28:15...that you've been reading and learning and doing lately?
28:17So I've been learning a lot about...
28:20And going back to something we talked about, which is the representation of scientists and the importance of how scientists
28:24are represented.
28:26And one thing that I've been kind of reading a lot about recently, which I find very interesting, is the
28:30representation of scientists, and especially geologists, in films.
28:37And partly from a humorous point of view, like what they dress like, what they talk like, how people around
28:42them respond to them.
28:44But also, in a more serious way, like, what is that doing for our discipline?
28:51And, you know, often, like, you know, I said, right, at the start when we began, when we started talking,
28:57you know, geology is viewed to the lens of catastrophe.
29:00Yeah.
29:01The only time you hear about geology is when it's going to kill you.
29:04It's a dinosaur that's going to eat you, a volcano's going to pull lava in your house, an earthquake that's
29:08going to make you fall down.
29:10And that's when, that's the only thing, we never hear about geology when it's been really boring, and like, you
29:14know, like, I don't know, geologists are just everywhere doing boring things every day.
29:18It's like, it's not, it can't be not that close.
29:22So, I think, I think in the movies, we often just see it as like, I don't know, The Rock
29:27or something like Hollywood A-lister is the geologist and he's like, you know, the big crack opens up in
29:32Las Vegas or wherever, I don't remember the San Andreas Forum in San Francisco.
29:39You know, that's the only time you see it.
29:40So, I'm kind of intrigued as to how, how that impresses the idea of geology on the viewing public.
29:48Yes, yeah, because that might be the, another inclusion problem is you think you need to have massive biceps like
29:54The Rock and...
29:55I'd like to think, I'd like to, I'd like to think, I'd like to think I'm trying to achieve that.
30:01No.
30:03Yeah, again, it's the represent, yeah, exactly.
30:05So, that's the more serious bit of this line of thought I have is, is like, what's, what's the demographic
30:11split between geologists, the trade and the movies and, and, and what I'm not interested in, I guess,
30:17to be really clear is the, is the geological realism of those movies.
30:21I am more than happy to sit and watch a film where something really ridiculous happens geologically and I can,
30:26inside myself think, you know,
30:30oh, the general public now we're going to think this thing happened.
30:32Like, they don't, they leave and think that Rock was great in that little thing or not.
30:36So, I, I think, that bit I don't really care about.
30:39What I, what I care about is the people and that representation and what that means.
30:42A bit slightly humorous.
30:43Yeah, yeah.
30:44I mean, is the, are you kind of mostly impressed by that?
30:49Is it being helpful, like seeing, seeing these guys on film or is it putting people off, do you think?
30:55And are there other ways that you could, you could make a kind of slightly more.
30:59A slightly more, yeah, more realistic.
31:02Makes it be really dumb.
31:03Maybe everyone's seeing geologists like tearing their hair up with some data that we just can't remember.
31:08I think they, I think it's fine.
31:11I think, I think the geologists have varying roles to play in those films.
31:14You know, they are, you know, front and centre.
31:17They're very rarely the one pulling the person out of a big hole in the ground.
31:20You know, they're not, you know, they're not the central hero.
31:22They're the ones who are normally bringing bad news because the seismograph is wiggling.
31:25And that means, you know, they're the ones talking to the president about something really bad that's going to happen.
31:30And so they're probably, I don't know, at the moment, it seems like they're normally the bringers of bad news.
31:35And again, I don't know, some people might want to do that in terms of inclusivity and discipline at the
31:39moment.
31:40Like, I like to think of bad news.
31:42But I don't know, you know, I'm going to try and talk to some people, maybe my own children,
31:45and get them to watch some geology, like, themed films, Dante's Peak Marathon one day and see what they make
31:53of it.
31:53Because what does, if it's not having massive muscles and jumping out of helicopters,
31:58what does a normal day as a geologist actually look like?
32:00It varies massively. So I get asked this quite a bit because I think there's like, oh, you put on
32:06your hiking boots
32:07and you walk to the top of the mountain, you collect a rock and go, aha, a big rock,
32:09and then you walk that down and then you get paid. It's like, there are some versions of geology
32:13where you're a geological mapper, you know, your job as a geological surveyor is to do that.
32:19But it can be so varied, you know, some people will be doing analytical work.
32:23They'll be crushing rock samples up or mineral samples, looking at them with very expensive analytical machines.
32:28There'll be some people like me who I study rocks which are very deeply buried beneath the earth.
32:33So I work with computers a lot that show images of what those rocks look like beneath the earth
32:38and rock samples which are recovered from boreholes drilled into the earth.
32:43There's some people who will be teaching geology, you know, so people in schools and universities
32:48who are passing on their knowledge to other would-be geologists.
32:54There's hydrogeologists who are concerned with how water flows through rocks and sediments.
32:58So there's just, you know, they'll be doing that numerically with models or with computers
33:03or they'll be out in the field sampling rivers and, you know, and streams and lakes.
33:09So it's just, it's one of the most, it's one of the broadest disciplines in terms of all the different
33:14things you can do within it.
33:16But again, you know, people think that it's a very singular experience, but it's very broad.
33:21Yeah, yeah. You're not giving kind of earthquake warnings to presidents.
33:27No, not yet. Not yet.
33:30You're headlining the Cosmic Shambles Forest of Science and Culture.
33:34That's right.
33:35Tell me a bit about Cosmic Shambles and its relationship with Attitude and your relationship with Cosmic Shambles too.
33:41It's hard to describe Cosmic Shambles to be honest. It's this, I often describe it as like a maelstrom,
33:47like a storm of science, comedy, music, culture.
33:52I think when I first heard of it, I thought it was like, this is a science communication, like production
33:58company.
33:59They, they, they curate scientists to kind of go and talk about science, but it's, but it's way more than
34:04that.
34:04And importantly say, because what it does is it, it brings people into the space probably under the guise of
34:09some other stuff,
34:09like comedy, culture, music, and then this science blended all the way through all of those different things.
34:16The music could be scientifically inspired. The, the comedy can be by scientists about the science they do.
34:22And I think that's the, the magic having been involved in a number of the Cosmic Shambles events over the
34:29last 10, maybe eight years or so.
34:31It feels like a lifetime.
34:34And in all of its different guises, podcasts, radio, you know, stage shows, it's, it's that bringing together of things
34:42which shouldn't really fit together.
34:44But when you see it all together happening, it makes perfect sense.
34:49And I think that speaks to the, the, you know, the genius of the brains behind the Cosmic Shambles is,
34:54is to have that, that vision of, of how things work when they put to, when they're, when they're kind
35:00of put together.
35:00And, and also being kind of slight, you know, being quite bold about that because there's probably some straight up
35:07science communication productions that, you know, we just do this and we take it very seriously.
35:11But having that, that joyful call to, for that experience for all those people in that room, whether it's a
35:17small tent in Suffolk or whether it's the Albert Hall, you know, having that joyful call for all those, you
35:23know, tens to thousands of people is, is what Cosmic Shambles is all about.
35:28And so, yeah, that's been my experience is just kind of sitting by the side of the stage waiting to
35:33go on, just open mouth thinking, what, like, what have I done?
35:36Like, yeah, what is going on?
35:40Yeah, yeah.
35:41Yeah.
35:42Well, yeah, I mean, you can find out, can't you?
35:45Even when you, even when you go to see Cosmic Shambles of Louches, you may not find out when you
35:48leave there.
35:49You always talk about being like, I just saw a load of like really cool stuff, and I need a
35:53few days to process it with some soothing, soothing folk music.
35:57David Craig.
35:58Yes.
35:59.
36:00.
36:00.
36:00.
36:00.
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