00:00Let's next talk to Lauren Landau, the professor at the University of Witswaran African Centre for Migration and Society
00:08and professor of Migration and Development at the University of Oxford.
00:13Professor, welcome, good to see you.
00:15For those of us who are not immersed in the subject, just how big an issue is illegal immigration into
00:21South Africa?
00:23Well, there's two issues here.
00:25One is how big an issue it's become politically.
00:27And we've seen from the reporting you've just done that it is the central issue in contemporary South African politics.
00:34In terms of numbers, it's not much changed since it's been in the past.
00:39Four or five percent of the population are immigrants, about half of that probably undocumented.
00:45So it's not really a big issue in an empirical sense, but it is a big political issue,
00:50and it is one that is now shaping the political future of the country.
00:53Given what you've just said then, I wonder how much things like social media are a galvanizing force in the
01:00background to the protests.
01:02Social media has played a huge role in this.
01:05We've seen the musing box.
01:07We've seen control over social media conversations.
01:09It has helped to construct a reality for many people, many people who have real concerns about poverty, insecurity, etc.
01:17And it has helped give them something to target immigrants.
01:21And that message has been reinforced.
01:23The role of March on March and Operation Dedula, which are out on the streets, has been amplified.
01:30And this, I think, has led people to a sense that this is inevitable and this is necessary.
01:34Well, to use your phrase, empirical evidence, I mean, is deporting migrants going to fix South Africa's many problems?
01:42No, I mean, one, there's just not that many.
01:45So getting rid of them can't possibly solve the myriad problems that South Africa faces.
01:50But what we see from most of the research, not just mine, but everybody's,
01:54is that immigrants, while they do compete for certain jobs, are creating jobs, they're promoting trade,
02:01they're helping the region to grow and to stabilize.
02:03So getting rid of them might have a sort of short-term political gain.
02:07But in terms of economic growth, in terms of jobs, in terms of services, it's only going to be negative.
02:13The South African authorities say they're announcing new measures to try to curb illegal migration.
02:19I mean, will that address the root causes, perhaps, of these tensions?
02:23Or do they, perhaps, risk reinforcing anti-foreigner narratives?
02:31Well, the real problems, of course, the real reason people are angry have nothing to do with immigration,
02:35their failure of the state to provide jobs, services, etc.
02:39But I think there is a need to do something symbolic to help win the confidence of the South African
02:44people.
02:45It's not what they proposed is not going to, however, solve these problems.
02:49And as you say, it's a lot of the rhetoric that they've been using has confirmed this message,
02:55that immigrants are a problem.
02:57This is a message, of course, that is useful for politicians who are running for office later this year.
03:01It is a powerful message for politicians who themselves have been involved in the failures that have led us to
03:08this point.
03:08Professor, thank you.
03:10Professor Lauren Lander at the University of Oxford.
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