- 4 hours ago
Angela Bassett, Claire Foy, Maggie Gyllenhaal, and Sandra Oh also star on the Drama Actress Roundtable.
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00:00:08Hi, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter.
00:00:10I'm Lacey Rose, and I'm joined today by Claire Foy, Sandra Oh, Tandy Newton, Maggie Gyllenhaal,
00:00:16Elizabeth Moss, and Angela Bassett.
00:00:18Thank you guys all for being here.
00:00:20So, I'm going to start with you, Sandra.
00:00:22The what?
00:00:23Hey.
00:00:25This is such an honor to be at this table.
00:00:27Sorry, I just had to say that.
00:00:28You're all so absolutely extraordinary.
00:00:29Hooray.
00:00:30Hooray.
00:00:30Such an honor.
00:00:31So, for years, it was every pilot season, we would hear Sandra's getting offers, Sandra's
00:00:37getting offers, Sandra's not doing projects.
00:00:39How do you decide what a no is, and how did, when this came along, you decided, okay, I'm
00:00:45ready?
00:00:46I think it takes a while to eventually get to a point in your career where you can actually
00:00:50make a choice, and after a decade of my life on a show, I had enough economic power to be
00:00:57able to say no.
00:00:57You know, those four years were really, I've said this before, it was like active waiting.
00:01:04I was not working on really here to be able to figure out what the right thing is and what
00:01:12it is to say no and what it is to say yes.
00:01:16So, that time was active to be able to feel the right, it's like, it's like falling in
00:01:24love.
00:01:24It's like, okay, now what I realize, I have a little bit more awareness, a little more
00:01:28consciousness.
00:01:29I want this out of a relationship, and I'm just going to wait until they show up, because
00:01:35I feel like they'll show up.
00:01:36And I think that's what it was for me.
00:01:38And so, when Killing Eve came by, it was not only the script, it was Phoebe Waller-Bridge
00:01:43herself.
00:01:44You know, there's a lot of circumstances around it that were, I had to make a lot of
00:01:49shifts in my mind, because it's shot in the UK.
00:01:53But it was the character and Phoebe's voice that I thought, this is the right thing for
00:01:58me.
00:01:59This just feels right to say yes to.
00:02:03For the rest of you, the ability to say no, the confidence to say no, when in your careers
00:02:08did you find it?
00:02:10And what are the sort of easy no's for you guys?
00:02:13Well, for a start, it's how a character is described in a script.
00:02:19I, for years, would be called up and said, Tandy, they want to go exotic with the role,
00:02:24so get excited, you know, or they want to go ethnic with the role.
00:02:27And even just that would, I would just have to brace myself, because it was so deeply offensive,
00:02:33but I wanted to work.
00:02:35And then I would read the script, and I would transform it out of this bizarre objectification,
00:02:42and I would think, how can I help this?
00:02:44How can I help, you know, make this more progressive?
00:02:49And I would spend a lot of my time, and I won't name projects specifically, trying to
00:02:56give more dimension to these characters, these women's roles.
00:02:59And oftentimes, they, well, they would always be written by men.
00:03:04And I would find myself desperately trying to stop these characters from being demonized,
00:03:13because I was, you know, and that happens with, you know, you don't have enough lines,
00:03:18you don't have enough screen time to actually try and humanize these characters,
00:03:23because I am drawn to, I am actually drawn to characters that do things which seem terrible
00:03:30or seem unkind.
00:03:33And I, because I want to find out, why has this poor human being done what they've done?
00:03:37Because for me, that's, that's the conversation, is what has, what has created the situation
00:03:43out of which a person can leave their children, or, and that's pain.
00:03:48And that's the place that I live in when it comes to a role.
00:03:51I'm sorry, I'm going beyond your, the question.
00:03:53I know, but it's fascinating.
00:03:53I apologize.
00:03:55Well, it really is.
00:03:56And so to start off, I think we have to be, and I found I've had to be, I've had
00:04:00to rise
00:04:02above the initial hurt that I feel that a man has written a role that is objectifying this
00:04:08person straight away, whether it's their ethnicity, she turns up, she's beautiful, she's, she's,
00:04:15she's, she's, she's sexy without, without giving too much away.
00:04:18She's, and it's just, I mean, even look, I'm sorry.
00:04:21You turn up at a photo shoot, let's say, and it'll say, you know, the, the idea behind
00:04:29this shoot is strong, powerful, sexy.
00:04:33As soon as I read sexy, I'm like, really?
00:04:35Do we have to be sexy in order to be powerful?
00:04:38What's that about?
00:04:39And no, they don't mean it when they write sexy.
00:04:41They mean strong because sexy, but let's start looking at the way things are described and
00:04:46let's take out the incredibly offensive and, and, you know, they have ramifications.
00:04:54You know, I have daughters.
00:04:56I don't want her thinking that you have to be sexy to be powerful.
00:04:59What does that mean?
00:05:00So yeah, it's, it's tough.
00:05:03It's tough, but I think that the way things have changed and this excites me so much is
00:05:07to actually start writing, you know, so that I'm not going to put out a request on casting
00:05:13that says she's sexy, but interesting and she doesn't, she doesn't really come forward.
00:05:19And yet she's really, you know, just like this nonsense women's role.
00:05:22And, you know, and also she's, she's ethnic, is so offensive, man, please stop doing that.
00:05:30So yeah, it's about rather than sort of getting swallowed up with misery, which I've been there
00:05:37and thinking you can't change.
00:05:39It's suddenly, as Sandra was saying, you suddenly have this power, whether it's economic
00:05:42or actually just people listen to you, people love you, girls write in and say, I'm so inspired
00:05:47by you.
00:05:48And it's suddenly realizing I'm going to take hold of this pen myself and I'm going
00:05:53to try and, you know, try and reckon, you know, try and, and, and change things as opposed
00:05:59to getting angry.
00:06:01Yeah.
00:06:02Yeah.
00:06:02I think a few of you laugh, I mean, a few of you laugh, which, which suggests that either
00:06:06you've been there or something else.
00:06:09I've worked with a lot of men.
00:06:12Of course there are exceptions, always.
00:06:15But that are actually interested in and curious about women, even if, of course, I think it
00:06:25is impossible for a man to entirely understand a feminine experience.
00:06:31I think that there are men who are interested in exploring it with you and in correcting it
00:06:40if you're like, no, it's actually more like this.
00:06:42It's scary though to, to be the one to say, hang on a sec guys.
00:06:46Can, can we try this?
00:06:47Cause there's always so much going on.
00:06:49It's always, there's always a hundred things that they've got to do, which are more important.
00:06:53So it's trying to find that moment to do it, trying to find the person.
00:06:57I think, I think my show is actually about this, like sex as a way into having an actually
00:07:04interesting conversation, which I find actually in my, when I look back with a little objectivity
00:07:09on like the work I've done in my life, I don't think I was conscious of this, but I
00:07:12do think sex and like sex scenes and sexuality has been like a way to get people's attention
00:07:23in and then go, okay, are you listening now?
00:07:27Here's what I actually really want to talk about, which that's what was available to me.
00:07:32So that's what I used.
00:07:34And, and I was, I'm really interested in sex like everybody else is in the world, you
00:07:38know, and I'm interested in sex scenes.
00:07:40And, but in my show, like my character has access to filmmaking, but only, only in, only
00:07:49in porn, you know, and only, you know, with her body, that's how she can get in and start
00:07:54having the conversation where she's like, what does that light do, you know, while she's
00:07:59got her clothes off.
00:08:00But I don't know, I kind of relate to that even as an actress.
00:08:04Is it based on any kind of true experience, the character?
00:08:08My character is, I think, based on like a, you know, combination of people.
00:08:13And there, there were people who were filmmakers and actresses in porn at the time, which is,
00:08:18you know, who she is.
00:08:19But I just think in like my experience, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I feel
00:08:23like sex and sexuality for actresses, because you're right, I think it has felt like a prerequisite,
00:08:30you know, that yes, you can be smart and powerful and all these things, but you do also have
00:08:35to like throw a little sexiness in there.
00:08:37I don't know if that's going to stay that way, but it has certainly been that way for
00:08:40most of my career.
00:08:41I think when you're in control, when you're, when you're empowered to be able to dial in,
00:08:45you know, up and down, however much sexiness you want to use.
00:08:49But what, what really worries me is when you're a young person and you come into this industry
00:08:55and you are encouraged to use your sexuality.
00:08:58But aren't we, aren't we all?
00:08:59Well, haven't we, isn't that, I mean, hasn't that been like, no, no, no, no, no.
00:09:03What do you mean?
00:09:04I've not been asked to use my sexuality in my, yeah.
00:09:07Really?
00:09:07In my career.
00:09:08But even just as like a vibe?
00:09:10No, not seen as, you know, it's a particular, a particular look and a vibe and image, you
00:09:17know.
00:09:17And you don't think it includes sexuality?
00:09:18And very rarely, no, it has not been a majority of that.
00:09:21You know, I gotta tell you, I'll, I'll echo Angela's experience.
00:09:25I will say for me, I don't think I've ever gotten any job based on.
00:09:32Boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:09:33Right.
00:09:33As fabulous as it is.
00:09:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:36But, but it just, but I always knew.
00:09:37That's why it was so beautiful the first season of Grey's Anatomy to see that image
00:09:41because it's never across the board the landscape of cinema, not the one they're checking for,
00:09:48for sexuality.
00:09:50And that's also, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, but it's also complicated
00:09:54in lots of ways because if you are the actress who does not, the person who does not necessarily,
00:10:03that's not at the forefront of your toolbox that you, that you get your work, you know
00:10:08what I mean?
00:10:08We're all dealing with it either on a hundred percent, like you're using it or on a five
00:10:12percent that you're using it.
00:10:14And there's a, a lot of different feelings that we have when people are not interested
00:10:18in your percentage of it.
00:10:20Sure.
00:10:20Right?
00:10:21And so, so that, that's for me, I've, I've realized in, in a lot of this awakening where
00:10:29there's a lot of times where I have felt left out, let's say, ignored, not seen or whatever,
00:10:35but I think that I have been protected.
00:10:40How?
00:10:40You know, protected because, because those, um.
00:10:44People don't see you that way.
00:10:45Yeah, but, but, but those, but it's not so much that it's, it's the compromises.
00:10:48I have not necessarily been in the situations where I've had to compromise in those ways,
00:10:54other ways I've had, but the, I feel like my ability to continue the integrity of my
00:11:00work has not, I don't think, been as a weighted as I think a lot of other actresses that I
00:11:06know and that I hear.
00:11:07Wait, as what was the word you used?
00:11:09Weighted.
00:11:09Weighted.
00:11:10Do you know what I mean?
00:11:11It's like, I don't come in, there's a different type of weight when you are not seen and you
00:11:15are not seen that way and you're not given power that way, right?
00:11:18Because it is power.
00:11:20Yeah.
00:11:20So if, if the greater, uh, uh, community at large is, is that we don't even need to,
00:11:24we don't even want that from you.
00:11:26Mm-hmm.
00:11:26You know what I mean?
00:11:27There's something.
00:11:28There's something in that because also later on we can bring the, uh, uh, the element of
00:11:34race in it.
00:11:35And I don't want to take up too much time, but, but, but, but, but, but these are the,
00:11:39these are the things that I just realized now, the things that I thought that I think that
00:11:43have hurt me for a long time, that I feel like, oh, I was practicing something else
00:11:49by really just doing my, my, that work.
00:11:53But it diminishes so much by saying that that's what really, really pisses me off, um, is that
00:11:59I find is that there is one idea of what is sexy.
00:12:02Mm-hmm.
00:12:02And I just, and I feel that now because you sort of, I'm doing more and more photo shoots
00:12:06and more and more things like that that are required of me and I'm sort of expected to
00:12:10be a certain way.
00:12:11Mm-hmm.
00:12:11And I sort of.
00:12:12What is that way?
00:12:12What is, what is it that you find and what are you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:16The sexy thing.
00:12:17I just don't have it, I don't have it into me, in me to be sexy as someone else.
00:12:21Uh-huh.
00:12:22Uh-huh.
00:12:22I don't know what, why I would be sexy or in what way I'm sexy.
00:12:26I don't know whether I can play up my sexiness.
00:12:28I don't know what that is that people see as me as sexy, but I can't be someone else.
00:12:33So I'm not talking about that kind of sexy.
00:12:35I'm talking about my kind of sexy.
00:12:38Like, I've, yes, many, many times been told I'm not sexy enough or beautiful enough or
00:12:42whatever.
00:12:43Like, so many more times than I can even remember from the time I was 22 years old.
00:12:48Like, I, yes.
00:12:50But I'm talking about, like, what you're saying, which is, like, I think I figured out at some
00:12:55point that one of the things in my toolbox was the way I feel that I'm sexy.
00:13:01Mm-hmm.
00:13:01And, um, yeah, I'm sure there is.
00:13:04Your sexuality and your sexuality.
00:13:06Yeah, because it is a power.
00:13:06It is a strength.
00:13:07Of course it is.
00:13:08Mm-hmm.
00:13:08And, like, look for, I mean, I don't know, I've been thinking about a lot of this because
00:13:12of everything that's been going on in the world right now.
00:13:15But, like, 100 years ago, the only way you could actually support yourself, let alone have
00:13:21the life you wanted to have, is by connecting with a man.
00:13:25Mm-hmm.
00:13:25And so what's in your toolbox?
00:13:27Mm-hmm.
00:13:28Of course your wit and your intelligence and your sexuality.
00:13:31All of it.
00:13:32So, like, for us as women, we have to use whatever's in our toolbox.
00:13:35I'm not interested in the pretend sexy thing.
00:13:38And I'm not interested in seeing it in other people either.
00:13:41No, but I don't think anybody, that's the thing, I think that's the fallacy of it.
00:13:43I don't think anybody really is.
00:13:44I know.
00:13:44I know.
00:13:45And I think, well, I mean, yeah, yeah.
00:13:48Does it change now that you're seeing, you know,
00:13:51you're seeing more, I mean, male nudity has become, I mean, certainly on Westworld and
00:13:55on The Deuce, you're seeing more of that.
00:13:57Does that change the sort of tone on set?
00:13:59Does that change the conversation we're seeing?
00:14:01Of course.
00:14:02In what way?
00:14:03What are the conversations that you've not previously had that you are having now on
00:14:08your set, on your set, on other ones?
00:14:09Oh, I've had, like, three prosthetic penises put in front of a group of people to figure
00:14:14out which one went best with which male.
00:14:17Wow.
00:14:17And what does that feel like, having always been the one where you were,
00:14:21the one stripping down?
00:14:23I don't know how to compare that to anything.
00:14:27I do.
00:14:29I mean, with the second season of Westworld, Simon Quartermann, who was terrified, and
00:14:34he was completely naked.
00:14:36There was no prosthetic penis there.
00:14:38He decided to go for it.
00:14:39And just being aware of his vulnerability and how, because that's the truth.
00:14:46When we're naked, we are vulnerable.
00:14:48Why are we all walking around in clothes?
00:14:50It's, you know, and yes, it is a strength, of course.
00:14:53If it's, you can, we can use that strength.
00:14:55But in reality, and that's what I love about Westworld, is that it's showing the vulnerability
00:15:00and the objectification of a person.
00:15:03And if you see a person naked, not in a sexual context, you're suddenly, you don't want to
00:15:07look.
00:15:08You know, I, maybe some people do want to jerk off to what I was doing in season one.
00:15:13I think that's really weird and they should check into a hospital.
00:15:16But, you know, it's, and I thought that was, that's why I took the show.
00:15:20I've been objectified.
00:15:22I've, I've had directors lie to me when, when I'm in a naked situation on, you know, a movie
00:15:27and told that they're cutting here, when in fact they're shooting from here.
00:15:30So you see everything, you know, and it's, it is titillation.
00:15:34I've, I've had terrible things happen, which I don't, you know, I've talked about them in
00:15:38the press and so it's, it's a really tough place to come from when you've actually been
00:15:43abused for your sexual, you know, in a sexual way.
00:15:47Um, so to, to be able to say to the showrunners of Westworld, I am willing to stand for 75
00:15:53%
00:15:54of this season one, totally naked because it wasn't a sexual context.
00:15:58And it, it was actually an environment where we're treated, the robots are treated like
00:16:02animals in a factory farm, bodies dumped on the ground.
00:16:05And in that place of complete vulnerability, she learns how to empower herself.
00:16:12Not real.
00:16:17But what about me?
00:16:21My dreams, my thoughts, my body, are they not real?
00:16:34And what if I took these unreal fingers and use them to decorate the walls with your outsized
00:16:46personality?
00:16:46Would that be real?
00:16:48It was like she literally in that space of total dehumanization, she learns to use their
00:16:57power against them.
00:16:58And it's such a stark and brave and bold reality that they create that, you know, what it ends
00:17:06up doing in the, you know, in our society, I think it's really, it's really powerful.
00:17:11The potential is huge.
00:17:12Sure.
00:17:13You know, but then just to get to your point, you know, to see this man terrified of being
00:17:18naked when Evan, Rachel Wood and I had kind of grown accustomed to it, you know, sitting there
00:17:22having a chat, having a glass of water, you're totally naked, I mean, that didn't actually
00:17:25happen.
00:17:26I'm trying to just, it was very touching.
00:17:29Uh-huh.
00:17:30It was very touching.
00:17:31And he has learned that it's really tough.
00:17:34Yeah.
00:17:34And I think the more men that do it, and men are also really worried about how their bodies
00:17:38look.
00:17:38Sure.
00:17:39Sure.
00:17:39So much more worried than us.
00:17:41How does, like, these guys on Westworld, like, how does my bum look?
00:17:45I'm really scared.
00:17:46Can do some shading here and there.
00:17:47And we're like, really?
00:17:48Yeah.
00:17:49And also welcome to my world.
00:17:50Yes.
00:17:51Sure.
00:17:51No, I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:17:53Some of you are producers on your shows.
00:17:55How have you weighed in as it relates to the treatment of women?
00:17:58When have you weighed in?
00:17:59When have you sort of accepted and said, this is how I would feel as a woman in this situation?
00:18:05Well, luckily, I mean, I work in a really incredibly collaborative atmosphere on my show that I have
00:18:10never experienced and been around for a while.
00:18:12And I've been in television for a while, and it's not like this usually.
00:18:15So I'm very, very lucky.
00:18:19There's no hierarchy.
00:18:20There's no ego.
00:18:21It's like we literally will take a good idea from the first AD if it's a great idea, and
00:18:25it's in the show.
00:18:26It's great.
00:18:26That's great.
00:18:27It's kind of amazing.
00:18:29As far as like the nudity and the sex, I was lucky in the sense of five years ago, I
00:18:35worked
00:18:35with Jane Campion, and she, for the first time, it was my first nude scene, and she gave
00:18:39me 100% approval without me asking.
00:18:43She said, listen.
00:18:44So I was like, no, I don't know.
00:18:45And she was like.
00:18:45I have that too.
00:18:46Yeah.
00:18:47Everyone should have it.
00:18:48It's so, I don't understand why.
00:18:49What does that mean?
00:18:50It means I have 100% approval over all the footage, and I can literally say you cannot
00:18:54use that scene.
00:18:55And it means instead of having to negotiate, which I think is really strange, you can show
00:18:59the right nipple, but not this.
00:19:01It's so dear.
00:19:01You're in steady.
00:19:03I'm empowered.
00:19:03Oh, I'm comfortable with this, but I'm not comfortable with that.
00:19:06It's so dumb.
00:19:07Then you can shoot the set.
00:19:09That's why we all need to talk.
00:19:10I'm just doing it on the set.
00:19:11I'm just doing it on the set.
00:19:13Yeah.
00:19:13I'm just putting stuff on it.
00:19:15Protecting yourself.
00:19:16Since I, I mean, I've been doing a lot of nudity all my career, and I've had it, you
00:19:22know, for like 15 years, and I've actually never taken anything out of anything.
00:19:28Oh, we're right.
00:19:29So did you then get it on Handmaid's, and how is that?
00:19:32I have it on everything now, and they like can't send out a cut that has something in
00:19:37it without me like approving it, and it's just normal now.
00:19:40That's fantastic.
00:19:41Yeah, yeah.
00:19:41But it is, it's a really, really incredibly collaborative atmosphere over there, and as
00:19:45the sort of one of the only female executive producers as well, obviously there's a weight
00:19:50there.
00:19:50You know, I have a perspective that nobody else will have, and that's so respected, and
00:19:55it's so appreciated, and that shouldn't be crazy that it's appreciated.
00:19:59It should be appreciated.
00:20:01It should be normal.
00:20:01It's totally normal, but it's nice that it is.
00:20:16One of the other conversations that I think unwittingly you got pulled into.
00:20:21Oh, great.
00:20:22Here we go.
00:20:22No, but my question about it is really, how does that feel, that all of a sudden the world
00:20:28is talking about a sort of a pay parody saga, and you know, whether it's Michelle Williams
00:20:34or it's you, your name is at the center of it.
00:20:36How much do you know, and what does that feel like, and what do you do?
00:20:40Who do you call?
00:20:41The bestest.
00:20:43But I mean, in perspective, you know, my sister has always been very good at saying to me,
00:20:48you know, the whole world isn't really, everyone else is getting on with their lives.
00:20:52Fair enough.
00:20:52So, you know, but the implications of it could be.
00:20:55Yeah.
00:20:55You know, if I turned around and went and kept my mouth shut and said, I have nothing
00:21:00to say.
00:21:00I am a robot.
00:21:01And, you know, I, you know, was part of a really incredible show that I'm really proud
00:21:05of and I'm very, very grateful, but that shouldn't stop me having an opinion about something
00:21:10that I've been brought into the center of.
00:21:12And that something actually, you know, it'd be very different if it was something that,
00:21:15you know, I possibly didn't have an opinion on, but I pretty much have an opinion on everything.
00:21:19But it's something that I feel really strongly about and that I had a suspicion of, but...
00:21:24It did.
00:21:24Is that why it got talked about?
00:21:26Because you had a suspicion?
00:21:27No, no, no, no, no.
00:21:28It was, it was purely that it came about because the producers brought it up as a way of saying,
00:21:34you know, this is a good thing because in the first two series, this is what happened,
00:21:38but we'll never do that again.
00:21:40Except that you're not in the...
00:21:41That's what's happened.
00:21:42Literally, that's what's happened with HBO right now because of, because of what you've
00:21:46done with the show.
00:21:47They're now having all the men and women equal pay.
00:21:50Yeah.
00:21:50Yeah.
00:21:50It's true.
00:21:51I mean, it's a revolution.
00:21:54Honestly, it's all so much talk and where is the action and I just get a call going over
00:22:00the bridge and going to Brooklyn saying that my salary is way higher than I ever considered
00:22:08it would be.
00:22:09And it's because of these conversations.
00:22:12And at first I was like, wait, this is not fair.
00:22:15And I, why do I get to like win the lottery?
00:22:18And then I went, hmm, no, it's been unfair to the point where I've, where I've digested
00:22:25it and accepted it.
00:22:26Internalized it.
00:22:27Yeah.
00:22:27Without ever considering that it could or should be equal.
00:22:30Like how, how strange what my mind did, you know?
00:22:34And also how it works so much, you know, looking back now and looking back at the conversations
00:22:38you have at the beginning of doing a deal and blah, blah, blah, all that, that I never,
00:22:42you know, and this may be a cultural thing, especially, but in the United Kingdom, we don't
00:22:47talk about money.
00:22:48No, we do not.
00:22:49No.
00:22:49We don't talk about money amongst actors.
00:22:50It's just not something that we do.
00:22:51We don't talk about it either.
00:22:52We feel we're equal already.
00:22:53I don't think people do.
00:22:54People don't like talking about money.
00:22:55Yeah.
00:22:55Or will you now?
00:22:56No.
00:22:57But the point is, is because, no, but the point is, is I don't have to now.
00:23:00It's going to set a precedent.
00:23:01And the thing is, is that, you know, at the beginning of the deal where you're saying
00:23:04about whatever, no, no, no, no, and this is going to happen and you're going to
00:23:06get paid this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that I have never, ever felt
00:23:09that I would ever be in a position where I could ask that or say ever, ever, ever,
00:23:13ever, ever, and I would know what was happening and I would know what the decisions were being
00:23:19made, but they use that to their favour.
00:23:22Sure.
00:23:22They use to their favour that you don't know and that you can't.
00:23:25And they will say, but you're not worth that.
00:23:27And you go, you're right, I'm not.
00:23:28Secretly, that's what you say to yourself when someone tells you that.
00:23:31Can we just add, though, that there's an important sort of, to be specific about,
00:23:36it's not just the production, it's our representatives, right?
00:23:40And I think that our representatives need to be empowered to be able to fight for us,
00:23:46right?
00:23:47Yeah.
00:23:47Because they're the ones, very often, who make the deals, they're the ones who know
00:23:49all this stuff, they're the ones who know that men are being paid more than women,
00:23:53and this is going to allow them to have, you know, the confidence to go in and say it,
00:23:59you know, on our behalf, because that's the reason why we have these people in our lives,
00:24:03is to protect us so that we don't have to have conversations about money,
00:24:06because nobody likes to do that.
00:24:08But are you, do you feel compelled and empowered to start having them on some level now?
00:24:13I mean, are those conversations, do you wear a director's hat often, a producer's hat,
00:24:17an actor's hat?
00:24:18I think I'm probably feeling a little bit more empowered to do so.
00:24:21But, I mean, but for so long, it's just been about wanting, wanting to work,
00:24:27and wanting to be paid fairly, you know, surely, and not, you know, being, not having a frame
00:24:32of reference of what someone else is getting, or the fear of, if you overreach, you're going
00:24:40to lose, you're going to lose the job, and you're just going to move on.
00:24:43That's used against us all the time.
00:24:43And you hear that, yeah, we're going to move on, right, if you say no.
00:24:47That's used against us all the time.
00:24:47But then you say no, and then they suddenly say, oh, actually, would you reconsider?
00:24:51That's a tactic I've used.
00:24:53That's a tactic I've used.
00:24:53Oh, well.
00:24:54Good for you.
00:24:56Good for you.
00:24:57It's not just financial.
00:24:58I think this question that we're talking about, about like, what are you entitled to?
00:25:03But also, there have been times where it's been more, but it's not been the role.
00:25:06So I've said, I've left, you know, I would leave it to.
00:25:10Well, sure.
00:25:10Something that they have to beg you to do.
00:25:12I know they're going to pay you.
00:25:13That's what I'm talking about.
00:25:14My thing is not to chase.
00:25:15That's what I'm talking about.
00:25:16To chase that.
00:25:16Yeah.
00:25:16But it's always here.
00:25:19The internal power.
00:25:20Yes.
00:25:20That we're not privy to.
00:25:22How did you make the decision?
00:25:23But that's not only financial.
00:25:24I was just going to say, like, you were saying earlier how difficult it is sometimes to say,
00:25:29wait, everybody just wait for five minutes because this isn't right the way this is set
00:25:36up.
00:25:37This doesn't feel right to me.
00:25:38This isn't an expression of my feminine experience or any feminine experience that I've
00:25:43observed.
00:25:46So to say, to feel that you're entitled to say, no, hold on a minute, as an artist,
00:25:53I think is something that, well, in some ways it just comes with experience as an artist,
00:25:58but I also think it is something that's shifting now for women maybe.
00:26:02Well, especially there's so many shows now that are led by women.
00:26:06I mean, it's just, it's predominant.
00:26:08Now when I, you know, it didn't used to be like that.
00:26:10I mean, it's a new thing.
00:26:12So when you're leading the show and you're the face of the show and a lot of people are
00:26:15making a lot of money off of that face and your work, it does put you in an empowered
00:26:19position.
00:26:20And I like what you said.
00:26:21It's not just financial.
00:26:22It is about other ways of having control and ways of having a say, which frankly, no one's
00:26:29used to.
00:26:29You know, you sort of start asking for something and they're like, oh, right.
00:26:33I guess you could have that.
00:26:34And they're like, you know, like no one's ever asked.
00:26:36I can't imagine being an executive producer on a show and someone, me saying something
00:26:40and them not just going, but you're just an actor.
00:26:42Yeah.
00:26:43Like that's what I got.
00:26:44You've heard that.
00:26:46That's why.
00:26:46I haven't heard that.
00:26:47That's what's understood.
00:26:48Yeah.
00:26:49This is what it feels like.
00:26:50Actually, if you go in.
00:26:50Oh, yeah.
00:26:51If you say, could we just pick up, push my pick up time by like 25 minutes?
00:26:55Yeah.
00:26:55You're difficult.
00:26:56You're just going to halt the whole production because you want to have 25 minutes.
00:26:59It's terrifying.
00:27:00Being an actress.
00:27:02Exactly, a super person.
00:27:03I asked to be a producer on my show because I'd never done this thing before.
00:27:09I know you've done it for, I've watched your beautiful work on television for many
00:27:12years, but I'd never done the thing before where you get three scripts and the season
00:27:18is 10 scripts and then you might go on for three years and I'm playing a sex worker and
00:27:23of course I've taken my clothes off all the time and I'm like, wait, I have to be able
00:27:27to know that I will be included in the conversation.
00:27:30I want to learn how to make movies.
00:27:35I told you it's nickel and dime.
00:27:40If they can make and sell that in Europe, it's not going to be wrong before we can make
00:27:46and sell it here.
00:27:47How do you know?
00:27:48America, right?
00:27:49When do we ever leave a fucking dollar for the other guy to pick up?
00:27:53If I'm wrong?
00:27:55Well, at least I learned something about making movies.
00:27:57Maybe I can go out to California and go work for Disney or something.
00:28:00In our show, there's lots of prostitution.
00:28:03There's lots of transactional sex.
00:28:06There's lots of fake orgasms.
00:28:07They're not called fake orgasms, but you cut in on the end of a sex act between a sex worker
00:28:12and a John and you hear this loud orgasm.
00:28:14And I said to David Simon Mann running our show, I said, I think you need to see a real
00:28:24feminine orgasm in order to show the contrast and to show that these are performative.
00:28:30Because also you see a lot of performative orgasms on TV that are supposed to be real anyway.
00:28:34So can we get down to the real?
00:28:37Because it will illuminate the misogyny in the performance and all that stuff.
00:28:41And when I first said it to him, he was like, he pretended to spit his water back in his
00:28:49cup.
00:28:49He's doing his little thing, David Simon.
00:28:54But then he wrote a scene where my character's sleeping with somebody that she actually wants
00:28:59to sleep with.
00:29:00He doesn't make her cum.
00:29:01And she turns over and makes herself cum.
00:29:05That's amazing.
00:29:06And when I first saw the cut of that episode, anyway, the orgasm, I just have to say, I
00:29:14was like, this orgasm needs to be the realest orgasm ever.
00:29:18This needs to be like the one that takes 30 seconds.
00:29:24You know what I mean?
00:29:26That's very quiet.
00:29:27That's super internal.
00:29:28That's just about her.
00:29:30And I thought about that.
00:29:33And then I like went in and did that on TV.
00:29:35And I think that's very vulnerable.
00:29:37That's way more vulnerable than the orgasm.
00:29:39That's the performance.
00:29:41But also powerful.
00:29:42I mean, that is a sign of power.
00:29:43Yeah, the empowering to be able to have an artistic say in what your character is going
00:29:48to be able to have an artistic say.
00:29:49But then, wait, I have to finish the story.
00:29:50Yeah.
00:29:50Then, I see the cut, and they cut the orgasm.
00:29:54And I was like, I wrote like a dissertation.
00:29:57I used to sing it.
00:29:58Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:59Sure, sure.
00:29:59Sure, sure.
00:30:00Sure, sure.
00:30:00Sure.
00:30:00Sure.
00:30:00Sure.
00:30:01Sure.
00:30:01Sure.
00:30:01Sure.
00:30:01Sure.
00:30:02Sure.
00:30:02Sure.
00:30:02Sure.
00:30:03And the second I got to set, I was like, where's the orgasm?
00:30:06And I explained to them again why they needed it in.
00:30:11And they put it in.
00:30:12Yay.
00:30:12That's fantastic.
00:30:14It's a beautiful thing.
00:30:14I'm curious.
00:30:15That is such a great win.
00:30:17Yes, that is.
00:30:18But also, as you were saying before, being in control and actually knowing your career,
00:30:24actually exploring your identity and self through sexuality, fascinating.
00:30:30Yeah.
00:30:30Fascinating.
00:30:30Fantastic.
00:30:31That's a great win.
00:30:33It's a great win.
00:30:34It's a great win.
00:30:34Preparation process.
00:30:35How do you, what got you to yes on 9-1-1?
00:30:38How do you sort of get into and inhabit that role as you're also inhabiting many others,
00:30:44you're juggling many different roles?
00:30:46How do you make that decision?
00:30:47It's a broadcast show.
00:30:48I mean, you talk about signing up for I don't know how long.
00:30:52It's a big decision.
00:30:53Well, it was, I mean, part of it was easy.
00:30:56I mean, it's the first time I sort of fell into it by four years ago working with Ryan,
00:31:02Ryan Murphy.
00:31:02I signed up for one year to do American Horror Story.
00:31:05So I thought that was gonna be it.
00:31:07You know, that's about, you know, as long as I can take.
00:31:12Before just going back and just doing, you know, just various things, which is, you know,
00:31:17what I've enjoyed and what's been available and what I've chosen.
00:31:21But that relationship sort of extended for four years.
00:31:25So I felt, you know, very comfortable, like it was, you know, a repertory, you know, company,
00:31:31company of wonderful actresses and actors and at that time, male directors.
00:31:37And just, you know, just the forward thinking with getting the opportunity to direct there.
00:31:45You directed on?
00:31:47American Horror.
00:31:48That's great.
00:31:48As you were acting in it?
00:31:50Mm-hmm.
00:31:50Ooh.
00:31:51Which is not my favorite.
00:31:52But, you know, because I really love, you know, actors and the process and the creative
00:31:58and the collaboration.
00:32:01But, and also, you know, being mother, you know, and if I go away, it really has to be
00:32:11something that I'm attracted to because when I go, I am away.
00:32:15You know, it's consuming.
00:32:17Mm-hmm.
00:32:17Mm-hmm.
00:32:17Mm-hmm.
00:32:17You know, if it's theater or going to the UK or whatever the case might be, it's consuming
00:32:24for me.
00:32:26Sure.
00:32:26So 911.
00:32:27So, yeah.
00:32:27Yeah.
00:32:27And, and the way that happened, there was no script.
00:32:31It was just an idea.
00:32:32Uh-huh.
00:32:33But it was the company you keep.
00:32:34Yeah.
00:32:35Yeah.
00:32:35You know?
00:32:36Mm-hmm.
00:32:37This is not right.
00:32:39It's just not right.
00:32:40Hey, hey, hey.
00:32:41Michael.
00:32:42Now look, my family is everything to me.
00:32:45And there ain't no trouble from the inside or evil from the outside.
00:32:49Let's go tear it apart.
00:32:52Now we may be buried in it up to our necks right now, and I may want to slap you
00:32:56with
00:32:56my left hand, but my right hand is holding you and the kids tight.
00:33:01You found a safe place.
00:33:03Yeah.
00:33:03Sometimes it's a script and you don't, you know, it's a script, you don't know the director
00:33:07or it's the director, you don't know the script of the project.
00:33:10Wow.
00:33:10This one, it was, it was the company, the entire company that I said yes to.
00:33:17I love that.
00:33:18Yeah.
00:33:18Unfortunately, it's turned out all right.
00:33:20Yeah.
00:33:21I would say so.
00:33:22Sandra, you talked recently about reading the initial, the pilot script for Killing Eve
00:33:28and sort of running through, and I think you were several pages in before you realized,
00:33:33okay, which character would I be?
00:33:35Would I be the central storyteller?
00:33:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:38What is that?
00:33:39What goes through your head?
00:33:40How do you, and what does that say?
00:33:42That moment was like a real punch in the gut for myself, to myself, because the internalization
00:33:49was really deep in that moment.
00:33:51So basically, you get the script, you know, you're on the phone with your agent.
00:33:55I remember exactly where I was.
00:33:56I'm right by BAM in Brooklyn, and I'm on the phone going, scrolling, scrolling.
00:34:01And I'm just going, and I'm just like, I don't, I don't know.
00:34:04Who am I playing?
00:34:05What's the part?
00:34:06Who am I playing?
00:34:07Eve.
00:34:08You're playing Eve.
00:34:09I believe there is a female assassin operating internationally, and she's targeted a number
00:34:14of influential people.
00:34:15She doesn't have a signature, but she certainly has style, and I don't know who or what is
00:34:19behind her, but I don't think she's slowing down.
00:34:21And that just interested me, I guess.
00:34:25But also, apparently, makes me a fantasist, and a crackpot, and completely on my own.
00:34:29And you know, frankly, I don't give a shit anymore.
00:34:30She is outsmarting the smartest of us, and for that, she deserves to do or kill whoever
00:34:34the hell she wants.
00:34:35I mean, if she's not killing me, then frankly, it's not my job to care anymore.
00:34:37Something happened to me in that moment where I didn't even consider, you know what I mean?
00:34:43You realize you didn't even, you catch that.
00:34:45You catch that.
00:34:45You catch yourself going, you hadn't given yourself permission.
00:34:48Why didn't I?
00:34:48Why didn't I?
00:34:48Why didn't I?
00:34:51That's also like, when I came out of theater school, everything was like, yeah, you know,
00:34:57that kind of thing.
00:34:58And then I've been here for a long time.
00:35:00And so that's this.
00:35:02That's that, right?
00:35:03That's, you realize that the perfect when you're born, right?
00:35:09There's stuff that happens.
00:35:11And then you wake up, you know, you know, 40 years later, and you realize that there has
00:35:17been weight, you have been, things have been internalized.
00:35:19So that moment was a punch in the gut to myself, to go, it's like, how many years of whatever
00:35:28this?
00:35:29Yeah, yeah.
00:35:30Have you had to put up?
00:35:31Has been internalized.
00:35:33So that's what I put up with.
00:35:34It's more like, have I internalized, or I can't even see myself in this moment, right?
00:35:39And sometimes you do need, as also what we do in our job, we need to hold these things
00:35:45for other people to see, right?
00:35:47So the fact that Phoebe, BBC America, Sally, the producer, said, yes, why not this?
00:35:55It was like a, I felt like, happy, or not, that's not what I'm aware, I felt slightly
00:36:00ashamed.
00:36:01Yeah.
00:36:01I felt like ashamed of my own realization of what, because it's also, I know I'm in an
00:36:06extremely privileged position.
00:36:08I've been doing this a long time, and also just doing this.
00:36:12So if I have it, do you know what, if I can't see it, I'm not saying that I can
00:36:19see
00:36:19everything, but if I can't see it, other people have that weight as well.
00:36:23So again, the work of relieving myself of that weight, the work that I have done this whole
00:36:29time, to get to that moment to go, okay, this is one of the reasons why I'm going to take
00:36:34this, I'm going to leave my life here, I'm going to go away and do everything to make
00:36:40this.
00:36:41And you know what's so exciting, Sandra, is you have literally in that moment turned
00:36:44pain into power, literally.
00:36:46Yeah.
00:36:46Because all that energy, all that, you know, the oppression, the repressed desire, longing,
00:36:53which you've actually managed to completely store away, comes out in your art.
00:36:58It is art.
00:36:59That wrestling of no and yes is art.
00:37:02And you have put all that into that performance, and it makes it electrifying.
00:37:06And it makes sense of it all.
00:37:08I think that's something we lose.
00:37:09We are artists.
00:37:11Yes.
00:37:11We really are.
00:37:12We're creative beings.
00:37:14Oh, for sure.
00:37:15Yeah.
00:37:16But you know what?
00:37:17If you leave it aside, it turns into this sad, toxic energy that's just sitting there.
00:37:22We need places to release it, and that's your role.
00:37:25Yeah, I want to ask you, because the role you're taking on, it's not just a big role
00:37:30for you at a time in your life.
00:37:32It's also, you're taking on a real person that a lot of people have thoughts on, have
00:37:37read about, know about, have opinions about.
00:37:40What's that process for you of saying yes, and then figuring out how am I going to cut
00:37:45everybody else out and do this?
00:37:47Well, it's weird.
00:37:48It's sort of a similar-ish kind of thing.
00:37:51I think, you know, I've been working for kind of, you know, ten years, and I sort of
00:37:56thought I knew the actor I was.
00:37:57Uh-huh.
00:37:58I was like, this is the sort of job I'm going to get.
00:38:00You know, I did a job.
00:38:02I was really proud.
00:38:03I did a thing called Wolf Hall.
00:38:04I was really proud of it, and I went, it's sort of like, you can die happy.
00:38:08Uh-huh.
00:38:08I was like, I've done the role I've always wanted to do.
00:38:10This is an absolute dream.
00:38:11I'm done.
00:38:12Uh-huh.
00:38:12If I never work again or never do anything that's that standard again, I'm fine.
00:38:15Uh-huh.
00:38:16So I got pregnant.
00:38:17Uh-huh.
00:38:19And I was like, goodbye world.
00:38:21And then got sent, you know, that job.
00:38:26And so was like, well, they think I'm that sort of actor.
00:38:30They think I can completely, you know, I'd always thought I could transform.
00:38:35But beyond my age, beyond my class, beyond my anything else.
00:38:40Mm-hmm.
00:38:40And so I met them, and they all seemed to have this huge night kind of like, yeah, yeah,
00:38:44you know, you can.
00:38:45And I was like, can I?
00:38:46And so I, because also I'd had a child, I had so little attachment to who I had been,
00:38:53who I thought I was.
00:38:54Because I had no concept of who I was anymore.
00:38:58I was just a vessel of emotion or just nothing.
00:39:02I was nothing.
00:39:04And so I just went, just get out of your own way and just be.
00:39:08And so it was a very odd experience where I didn't allow myself to set myself any limits
00:39:13or say that I could or couldn't achieve anything.
00:39:16Or I, you know, the believability of a Mancunian small girl playing the Queen of England.
00:39:24Do you know, I've been Queen barely 10 years.
00:39:31And in that time, I've had three Prime Ministers, all of them ambitious men, clever men, brilliant men.
00:39:46Not one has lasted the course.
00:39:51They've either been too old, too ill, or too weak.
00:39:57I just sort of went, oh, shut up.
00:39:59You just get on with it.
00:40:00And I just sort of did.
00:40:03And I feel very lucky that I was given the opportunity to have people put trust in me.
00:40:08But then also by that, I go, why do you have to have people put trust in you?
00:40:12Like, why do you have to have people saying that they believe you can do it
00:40:14as opposed to just going out there and saying, I can do it myself?
00:40:17But I think there's something, I think there's something really interesting about, you know,
00:40:23all the things you get either asked to do or sent to you, whatever,
00:40:27where you're like, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this.
00:40:31And then every once in a while, there's someone who's like, yeah, I think she should be the Queen of
00:40:36England.
00:40:37They're like, I think I should play like a street hooker in 1971.
00:40:41And you're like, yes, I should.
00:40:43Yes, that is what I should do.
00:40:44And someone else like across the universe who sees you, like sees you as an artist in a few things
00:40:52and goes like, I see what that person doesn't know they are yet.
00:40:55And I feel like that's a really intimate, amazing, kind of across the universe type of interaction.
00:41:04Sure, sure.
00:41:04Well, how has it changed since?
00:41:06Now you're, I mean, it was two seasons or series, as you say.
00:41:10What are they, now what are you being approached for?
00:41:13Has that changed?
00:41:14No, I mean.
00:41:16The way you see yourself changed.
00:41:17Yeah, weirdly, which is really, I find slightly kind of, I mean, a bit, I've noticed some sort of aspect
00:41:25of my character that I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
00:41:27Like self-destructive, where I'm like, go on, what can I do now?
00:41:31Genuinely, I'm like, I'm going to push myself to the absolute edge of my ability or what I think I
00:41:36can do and what I think I'm able to do.
00:41:38And I don't, I've never really been like, when I've been sent things that I feel like I've done before,
00:41:44ever, I kind of, I feel so lucky to do this job
00:41:47that I don't really want to do it if I don't feel like I'm doing something.
00:41:53That is a lot of doing stuff.
00:41:54No, no, no, no.
00:41:54But you know what I mean, I don't, I feel so lucky that I'm like, well, so many people want
00:41:57to do this.
00:41:58So many people I know and love and my best friends have wanted to do this their entire lives and
00:42:01they don't have that.
00:42:02They haven't been as lucky as I have.
00:42:04So I'm like, so I'm just, I might as well grab it by the balls and do it.
00:42:08But then I've noticed that I am just like, I just sort of am running headlong into the fury and
00:42:14going,
00:42:15and trying to just balls it all up.
00:42:19But not because I think I sort of have that sort of, I don't want to play it safe.
00:42:23I really don't.
00:42:23I really don't.
00:42:25That's a good thing.
00:42:26It is a good thing, but it's weird to know that about yourself.
00:42:28I just suddenly go, oh, you're doing this anyway.
00:42:31There's got to, you know, I'm outside.
00:42:33I feel very instinctual anyway as a person.
00:42:36And I just think then when you realise you are and then you purely run on instinct,
00:42:39it's quite a terrifying thing to do, but really, you know, exciting.
00:42:56I wanted to ask you because I know there's a particularly gruesome scene.
00:43:01And I remember reading you say that you were excited to watch that with an audience
00:43:05and you were excited to watch people sort of squirm and shriek.
00:43:10Why?
00:43:13What is that?
00:43:14But also, I mean, a lot of people don't like to watch themselves on screen.
00:43:18Not only did you, were you okay with it, but you wanted to watch the reaction.
00:43:21What was that satisfaction that you were driving from that?
00:43:24Yeah, I mean, I've gotten over watching myself because I have to watch cuts and dailies all the time,
00:43:28so I'm kind of over that.
00:43:30But yeah, there's a really gruesome scene at the end of the first episode,
00:43:33which I don't want to spoil necessarily, but it's kind of, it's not that bad,
00:43:36but it is kind of gruesome.
00:43:37Your bar is perhaps...
00:43:39Yeah, my bar is pretty high.
00:43:40But we worked really hard on it and it was a big deal.
00:43:43And like, we worked really hard to make it work and make it look good.
00:44:17I don't know, it's just like a gleeful, like...
00:44:19Was it what you expected?
00:44:20Yeah, it was so good.
00:44:22It was so good.
00:44:23It was just general, like, uncomfortable and outcry and just like people squirming.
00:44:29And I literally am sitting there like the devil.
00:44:31I just was like...
00:44:32Oh God, I can't wait.
00:44:33I can't wait.
00:44:33But you know, it's just because you work so hard on something and you put so...
00:44:37And our special effects makeup people put so much into it and everybody worked on it.
00:44:41So it's just, you know, I was...
00:44:43We're proud of it.
00:44:44So I wanted to hear the screams.
00:44:47But do you guys find you're surprised by the response that an audience has?
00:44:52Or are you often...
00:44:53It's what you think it's going to be?
00:44:56Have there been times...
00:44:56You look like you have an answer.
00:44:57I don't know how you could possibly ever...
00:44:59You can't predict it.
00:44:59You can't predict it.
00:45:00You can't predict it.
00:45:00And people who think they can really, I mean, don't understand.
00:45:03One of the things about...
00:45:05I mean, a lot of us come from film and it's actually an interesting transition to get into television.
00:45:10Because with a film, you get one shot at it.
00:45:13You know, that's that hour and a half and it's done.
00:45:15But what's so extraordinary about television is that because it's ongoing, you do build up this kind of, I don't
00:45:22know, a tribe that follows you.
00:45:24And whether you want to or not, you can't help but start hearing what people are saying.
00:45:29And this groundswell of feeling about the work that you're doing, about the character that you're playing.
00:45:34And certainly for playing Maeve, it was very surprising because she's a secondary character.
00:45:40And I did it because I just wanted to be part of this incredible show that was going to subvert
00:45:45all these stereotypes in a really cool way.
00:45:47It's cowboys and robots, man.
00:45:49I mean, I didn't expect it to be, you know, an existential kind of phenomenon.
00:45:53Although I loved all the existential stuff for me personally.
00:45:57So, but to then get that feedback over time, you suddenly feel this...
00:46:01I mean, I do feel a responsibility when I'm playing all the roles I play because I don't want to
00:46:06influence young people in ways that I think are going to damage them.
00:46:10You know, so I try and literally get away from roles that I think are gratuitous.
00:46:15And it's hard in television because you get the first two episodes and you don't know what's going to happen.
00:46:20So I think it is really, with long-term performances, we get a chance.
00:46:25I mean, you must have experienced this too, Sandra, with years of great anatomy.
00:46:28You get the response that comes back is exciting.
00:46:32It just makes you invest that much more, makes you feel the sense of responsibility
00:46:37because there's genuine love for the characters that you play.
00:46:41Or hatred, I mean, depending on what character you play.
00:46:43But certainly for Maeve, I could feel this desire from audiences to have her free.
00:46:49And that's, you know, it wasn't just women of colour of 45 years old that loved it.
00:46:54Men, younger people, older people, old ethnicities just went for this character.
00:47:00I think it's because she's not human and it is the Wild West.
00:47:03It took people out of, well, she's not like me.
00:47:06It actually allowed you to connect more with her because she's not human, ironically.
00:47:11But that long-term experience is really valuable, I think.
00:47:16It is really valuable.
00:47:17I love it.
00:47:17It is amazing.
00:47:18I mean, I don't come from film. I actually come from television.
00:47:21And so it's what I know and now I'm sort of doing more films.
00:47:24But because of what I've done in television, they're letting me do them now.
00:47:28And, you know.
00:47:30It is weird that thing.
00:47:32It's weird.
00:47:32It's weird.
00:47:33It's the opposite kind of thing.
00:47:34It's the complete opposite.
00:47:35The snobbery around working in television has gone.
00:47:38It's gone.
00:47:39Yes, yes, yes.
00:47:40It's flipped now.
00:47:41But I've only known having worked on a character for five, six, seven years.
00:47:46And so, for me, I panic with a film because I'm like, oh, my God, I only have six weeks
00:47:51or I have two months and that's it.
00:47:53Then it's gone.
00:47:53I never get to work on the character again.
00:47:55So it has to be right.
00:47:56It has to be right.
00:47:56This one time.
00:47:57And that freaks me out.
00:47:58It's like a beginning, a middle, and an end.
00:48:00And you know exactly what's going to happen.
00:48:01And it's a totally sort of different experience for me having come the opposite way.
00:48:05That's really cool.
00:48:06I prefer television in a way because I love sitting with a character for nine years or whatever.
00:48:11Is that how long?
00:48:12And you said 10 years.
00:48:1410 years.
00:48:1410 years.
00:48:1410 years.
00:48:17It does.
00:48:17Yeah.
00:48:18It's just a whole different other realm of acting.
00:48:21Yeah.
00:48:21It really is.
00:48:22You know, it's like people say, how do you do the same show in theater, you know, night
00:48:25after night?
00:48:26It's not the same show night after night.
00:48:28No, it's not the same show night after night.
00:48:30Every single time you get.
00:48:31And then it's also like, you know, on network.
00:48:34Yeah.
00:48:34It's like, okay, you have 22 episodes, right?
00:48:37Out of the 22 episodes.
00:48:38Unbelievable.
00:48:39Six maybe about kind of your character.
00:48:42Out of that, maybe three have like really good stories.
00:48:45And out of that, for me, it would be, you go, today, did I have an honest moment?
00:48:52Yeah.
00:48:53Right?
00:48:53Every day, did I have one honest moment?
00:48:55It's okay.
00:48:56Don't lay it all on you because you get to go up to bat again and again and again.
00:49:00Now there's a lot of weight on that because I think it's, I think you have to put more
00:49:07energy to continue being creative.
00:49:09Yeah.
00:49:10It's not as easy to do that.
00:49:12You have to go up to that.
00:49:13How do you do that?
00:49:14It's more of a marathon.
00:49:15That's a later question.
00:49:17No, but seriously, it's a later question because I don't want, it's like, I go to class,
00:49:20I have a group, I have a teacher, I have all that.
00:49:23And so that's just a whole other thing.
00:49:25For me, my responsibility, you know, come, you know, after like the second or actually
00:49:30probably the second season, I was just like.
00:49:33Right.
00:49:33Yeah.
00:49:33I got to, I got to go back in basically where I come from, you know, in theaters.
00:49:37It's like, I got to go, I got to go back in.
00:49:39I don't know what it is.
00:49:40I, this is not the, what, how do I make sense of it?
00:49:42And that for me, honestly, create, I started my, just found my creative path, you know,
00:49:49which, which, so when it comes, I'm going to go back to the, a point about how you start
00:49:55from your early on career to later and how you don't have as much choices and what you
00:50:00can fill those tiny little moments where you don't have a lot of dialogue, you don't
00:50:04have a whatever.
00:50:05If you still want to work as an actor and be creative and empowered as an actor, I swear
00:50:10you can still do it.
00:50:12You know what I mean?
00:50:13Because if there's going to be one person who's going to play this Korean prostitute,
00:50:16it's going to be me.
00:50:18Because I know I don't have, I don't have dialogue in English.
00:50:22I don't have this.
00:50:23I ended up being cut out, you know what I mean?
00:50:25But in the universe of it, you're going to pan across that and you're going to pan
00:50:30across my face and I'm going to be doing, I'm going to be fucking filled.
00:50:34But anyway, you're going to have that day at work.
00:50:36Exactly.
00:50:36Which is either going to be a super drag or it's going to be some kind of experience.
00:50:41Yes, because all those things bring hopefully all of us to this moment, you know what I
00:50:46mean?
00:50:46Because, because I think we've all had to along the way make our decisions of,
00:50:51well, this is crappy, but I got to eat.
00:50:53Yes.
00:50:54Yeah.
00:50:54No, absolutely.
00:50:55But then the point of going, okay, how do I want to influence the storyline?
00:50:59And how do I, let's say, regarding other people who do not have as much power,
00:51:03how do I influence the casting on the show?
00:51:06How do I influence the people behind the camera on the show?
00:51:09Because now, after all this time, I'm able to say something.
00:51:12Yeah, yeah.
00:51:13And you can fight for something and they have to listen.
00:51:15Yes.
00:51:15When it comes to responses, you obviously were just part of Black Panther,
00:51:19which was the sort of biggest of them all.
00:51:21Oh!
00:51:23Oh!
00:51:25Oh!
00:51:25They've been practicing.
00:51:27They've been practicing.
00:51:27They've been practicing all morning.
00:51:29I'm cute.
00:51:30I love it.
00:51:31I love it.
00:51:32Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:34I am curious.
00:51:36You've done a lot of things, you've done a lot of wonderful things in your career.
00:51:40At what point did this one feel different?
00:51:42It felt different immediately, you know, getting the call from Ryan.
00:51:48And again, that was one of those situations where it was, you know, a walk of faith.
00:51:51Because I had met him briefly before at a premiere, but I was a fan of his previous two films.
00:51:59His only two films.
00:52:00A very small film and then a slightly bigger film.
00:52:03But this one was a massive, massive undertaking for this young man.
00:52:08But you had faith that...
00:52:10Do you feel the weight of that?
00:52:12You did.
00:52:13And you felt a responsibility to be in there with him.
00:52:16But it was not just me.
00:52:17You felt there's some moments and some sets where everyone catches, you know, the fever of it.
00:52:27The heat of it.
00:52:28And they're bringing the best to the moment.
00:52:32They're giving the full measure of their devotion.
00:52:34Everyone.
00:52:35Everyone.
00:52:35And that's what you experienced and saw and felt on that set.
00:52:39You know, you knew it was going to be special.
00:52:41But how special?
00:52:42You know, standing in Warrior Falls and just seeing hundreds of extras on this mountaintop.
00:52:48This mount that looked like something from Disney World.
00:52:50And hearing drummers doing 10 hour days under the hot sun with lights beaming down, giving us sunburned eyes or
00:52:58whatever.
00:52:59We didn't know that was happening.
00:53:01But drumming and the entire mountains just swaying.
00:53:05And it was just magical.
00:53:07And folks looking.
00:53:08And we're just joy, joy, joy.
00:53:10And you would continue.
00:53:12And then when it...
00:53:13You know folk were waiting, but you didn't know the breath of the folk were waiting.
00:53:17That the eight-year-old and the 83-year-old were waiting.
00:53:20You know.
00:53:21Hungry for it.
00:53:22Every...
00:53:23Yeah.
00:53:23And what it would do.
00:53:24And that this could be, as they say, the blackest, black, black, Africanest film that ever was.
00:53:30And it was.
00:53:31It embraced.
00:53:33It made me think, you know, if I had been eight and watched that movie, it would have changed my
00:53:37life.
00:53:37It would have changed the course of my life.
00:53:39Because back then, coming from a small town in England, there were no people of color around.
00:53:44I mean, I know I'm a unique exception because that's not often that happens.
00:53:48But what we see around us, who there is out there that represents how we feel and who we are,
00:53:54is of critical importance.
00:53:56So...
00:53:56You would just grab...
00:53:58Yeah.
00:53:58It's a critical importance.
00:53:59Just grab onto whatever images that inspired you.
00:54:03Yes, of course you do.
00:54:03And just move through.
00:54:03For me, it was just Michael Jackson.
00:54:04That was it.
00:54:05And that didn't go so well.
00:54:07You know.
00:54:07That's not a great role model, as it turns out.
00:54:10You know.
00:54:10We're gonna end with the lightning round quickly.
00:54:12I wish Hollywood would cast me as a...
00:54:16Oh, God.
00:54:17You said alien, so I'm going to let that be.
00:54:19Oh, did I say alien?
00:54:20You said alien, which I loved.
00:54:22You're gonna be an alien.
00:54:24God, I love this.
00:54:25Me either.
00:54:26Oh, my God.
00:54:27No.
00:54:27Oh, God, this is too much.
00:54:28I was always wishing Hollywood would cast me as a queen.
00:54:31Uh-huh.
00:54:32Well done.
00:54:33Yeah.
00:54:33I would say that.
00:54:33I would always say that.
00:54:35I'll say queen, too.
00:54:36I'm gonna say queen.
00:54:36Yeah.
00:54:38But now they will.
00:54:39In some made-up galaxy, can't I be queen?
00:54:43We're making it up anyway, you know?
00:54:45So, um, and now that that's occurred.
00:54:48Yeah.
00:54:49There's nothing left.
00:54:50It's something.
00:54:51No, the universe.
00:54:52Then it's just like the...
00:54:54Oh, yeah, you're a queen.
00:54:54I'm gonna say a sex worker.
00:54:55And a queen.
00:54:56Yeah.
00:54:57I mean, I feel like my daughter, she's 13 now.
00:55:01She was 12 when she was cast in a really, really big movie.
00:55:04And it was not something I led her to.
00:55:06I think I've actually tried to stop her from getting into my world.
00:55:10And it happened by accident.
00:55:12And she's the lead in this huge movie, which comes out next year.
00:55:15And I know it's not exactly your question, but I look at her and I think, that's me.
00:55:21Uh-huh.
00:55:22I have been cast.
00:55:23That is exactly how I would like to be cast.
00:55:25And it's happening in my girl.
00:55:27And to see her just effortlessly...
00:55:29Oh, interesting, yeah.
00:55:29...taking the light.
00:55:31And it's how she's been raised.
00:55:33It's the stuff I've talked to her about.
00:55:35It's the empowerment of just being in a creative environment where we have struggled, but we
00:55:41do now.
00:55:42We don't wait for permission, my husband and I.
00:55:45And to see her just like, whatever.
00:55:47And I'll say things to her like, baby, just be careful.
00:55:49And she's like, mom, I'm way cooler than you when you were 12.
00:55:52And I know that's just a simple comment, but it's real.
00:55:56So I just feel like I'm trying to put my own trauma aside.
00:56:00Stuff that I've been through, we've shared together.
00:56:02Because I look at the next generation because we have raised them to be strong, whether
00:56:07they're girls or boys.
00:56:08And to see them standing in their power and they don't want to hear about the shit I went
00:56:12through anymore.
00:56:13They kind of, they really tune out.
00:56:15It's like, mom, yeah, yeah, I got this.
00:56:17And it's amazing.
00:56:19So, you know, there is, of course, we'd like in our lifetimes for, to be fully realized,
00:56:25to be fully rewarded.
00:56:26But you know what?
00:56:27That's not life.
00:56:28The reality is we've got to pass it forward and let them shine.
00:56:31Right?
00:56:32And it's what we do for them.
00:56:33It's how we inspire them by all the things that we've talked about today.
00:56:37Because they're the ones who are going to take over.
00:56:39We're not going to be here.
00:56:40You know?
00:56:40And I think that that kind of attitude, to be joyful, that life carries on when we're
00:56:46gone.
00:56:47Movies carry on when we're gone.
00:56:48And it's about truly, truly thinking about what's life going to be for them?
00:56:53What's life going to be like for them?
00:56:54Yeah.
00:56:55What would you tell your younger self, knowing what you know now?
00:56:59What's the advice you'd give?
00:57:03Oh, Jesus.
00:57:04I'll be kinder to yourself.
00:57:05Oh, God, be nice to yourself.
00:57:07Jesus Christ, yeah.
00:57:09Yeah.
00:57:10Yeah.
00:57:11I think we're so taught to be critical of ourselves.
00:57:13We're so taught to measure ourselves against other people.
00:57:15And it was something that Oprah said, who I just...
00:57:18Love it.
00:57:18Love it.
00:57:19I just...
00:57:20I mean, there are no words.
00:57:22But she said, I can only be the best version of me.
00:57:25There's no point in me trying to be, you know, that woman over there.
00:57:29Like, what's the point?
00:57:29I have to, and it seems so simple.
00:57:31And I think I heard it a lot, but I never really understood what that meant.
00:57:34And about the fact that it's about focusing on what you can improve on yourself
00:57:38and focusing on what's really good about yourself.
00:57:40Like, there's no point in just going, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm bad.
00:57:42Be guilty, be guilty, be guilty.
00:57:44Feel sad, feel selfish.
00:57:45You should go, I'm really good at this, and this I can improve on.
00:57:48And that I'll never be able to do, but, you know, maybe I will do, you know.
00:57:51It's that thing of don't set yourself limits and don't try and be like anyone else.
00:57:55It's just a waste of time.
00:57:56Such a waste of time.
00:57:57What about you guys?
00:57:58Yeah, the same, the same.
00:58:00The best version of you is inspiring, inspires me to be the best version of myself.
00:58:06You know, and sometimes it doesn't feel like that internally, but have more confidence.
00:58:12I mean, or even in the oddity or the quirkiness or whatever, just sit in it.
00:58:17Sit in it, yeah.
00:58:18Sit in it.
00:58:19It's good.
00:58:19What did you guys want to be when you grew up?
00:58:21What did you think that you'd be now, doing now?
00:58:24It's so stupid, but I wanted to be an actor.
00:58:27Yeah, that's amazing.
00:58:28I do too.
00:58:30I wanted to be a news reader, desperately.
00:58:33I would create the table and I would talk to nobody and just deliver the news.
00:58:41And there was this woman of colour who used to read the news, Moira Stewart on TV.
00:58:44Oh, Moira.
00:58:45Moira Stewart, man.
00:58:47That voice.
00:58:48And you have so much authority and you're literally telling people what's been going on in the world.
00:58:52I'm like, that's what I want.
00:58:53And I'm kind of doing it.
00:58:55Yes.
00:58:56What did you guys want to be?
00:58:58I know this is awful, but I had so little belief in myself or, you know, as a child, I
00:59:03used to look at the Argos catalog.
00:59:05I had to look at tills because I wanted to work on a till.
00:59:08And I did.
00:59:09That is so sweet.
00:59:10I worked in Tesco.
00:59:11Yes.
00:59:12And I was like, I've done it.
00:59:13This is it.
00:59:14You're a cashier at Tesco.
00:59:15Yeah.
00:59:16I had so little.
00:59:17I never thought about a year ahead, two years ahead, five years ahead, 25 years ahead.
00:59:20I always thought I'd die young.
00:59:22And so now I'm just like, oh, my God.
00:59:24Like, I just don't think ahead.
00:59:25I don't.
00:59:25Oh, my God.
00:59:26I love that.
00:59:27From Tesco to Queen.
00:59:29Yay.
00:59:30That's an amazing trajectory.
00:59:31And that's the story of what can, that's real.
00:59:34That's life.
00:59:35It's so beautiful.
00:59:37It's so inspiring.
00:59:38I'm a dancer.
00:59:39A dancer.
00:59:40Oh, my God.
00:59:40Yeah, I actually, I still feel like I'm a dancer who's just acting.
00:59:47Ballet, or what did you do?
00:59:48You know what I mean?
00:59:49I will say this.
00:59:50I did ballet for many years.
00:59:50For a long time, and I remember I was in my early 20s, and I saw Pina Bausch for the
00:59:54first time.
00:59:55Oh, my gosh.
00:59:55I just saw her.
00:59:56I just saw her company dance.
00:59:57Oh, her company dance.
01:00:00That's incredible.
01:00:00I thought for the first time when I saw her company work, I thought if I had seen Pina Bausch
01:00:07when I was eight, when I was about 10,
01:00:09I would have never become an actor.
01:00:10Right.
01:00:11My daughter is a dancer.
01:00:12My daughter is a dancer.
01:00:13She's a dancer, like for real.
01:00:14I'm not a dancer, but she is.
01:00:17Who knows what her job will be, but she's a dancer.
01:00:19And we took her to see Pina Bausch.
01:00:21Did you?
01:00:21How old is she?
01:00:22She's 11.
01:00:23See, that is amazing.
01:00:24That is that precious time that if you see something and you lock into it.
01:00:28Yes.
01:00:28Because just at that time where I was auditioning for professional schools and not getting in, my parents took me
01:00:35to Annie.
01:00:36And then it was like, they're dancing and singing on stage.
01:00:40Right.
01:00:41And I was just like, what the hell is that?
01:00:42Right.
01:00:43And so I think that there's a precious eight to 12 time where you can really lock in on what
01:00:47you want to do for your life.
01:00:49Well, also, Pina Bausch, you know, we don't want to go too far off the subject, but she stretches the
01:00:55boundaries of what's possible.
01:00:57And she expresses things, not in words, obviously, but that I don't see expressed anywhere else.
01:01:03Mm-hmm.
01:01:03And when I took my daughter to see her company dance and they danced Cafe Mueller, which the second that
01:01:10the dancer walked on stage, I started crying.
01:01:14Oh, but it's like people who sing.
01:01:16It's like something visceral.
01:01:18Well, they're shamans, aren't they?
01:01:20They're connected to a higher power, man.
01:01:21They are.
01:01:21It's alchemy.
01:01:22Something's funny.
01:01:22They just feel it.
01:01:23And I just, if I could dance all the time, I'd do it.
01:01:25Actor.
01:01:26It was that connecting, you know, in those, yeah, in those early teen years.
01:01:30We did it.
01:01:31We did it.
01:01:32Woo-hoo!
01:01:32We did it, guys.
01:01:33Thank you, guys.
01:01:34It was awesome.
01:01:37Thank you all for being here.
01:01:38Three more to go.
01:01:39No.
01:01:40No, I don't want to.
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