- 7 hours ago
THR gathered six nonfiction filmmakers — Evgeny Afineevsky ('Cries From Syria'), Greg Barker ('The Final Year'), Yance Ford ('Strong Island'), Matthew Heineman ('City of Ghosts'), Amanda Lipitz ('Step').
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Short filmTranscript
00:00:06Hello and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter documentary and with me today are Yancey
00:00:13Ford, Matthew Heineman, Peter Nix, Evgeny Afineski, Brett Morgan, Amanda Lippitz and Greg Barker. The
00:00:22first question I'd like to ask you about is are you ever conflicted as filmmakers in that you're
00:00:29shooting a scene things aren't going well for your subjects but you know it's going to make a
00:00:34great movie I mean that happened with you your film about last year the State Department and you
00:00:41were filming at an election night party at Samantha Powers former UN ambassador's house with Madeleine
00:00:48Albright and Gloria Steinem and they were expecting a celebration with the election of Hillary Clinton
00:00:54it didn't go that way how do you feel as a filmmaker when you're capturing a scene like that
00:01:00well I mean yeah I mean as a filmmaker obviously I could see what was unfolding and you know
00:01:07Samantha asked me that night what does this mean for your movie and I think so I think it got
00:01:13a
00:01:13lot more important but as an American obviously we're all living through that I mean there are
00:01:18people who didn't want us in the government who did not want us in that room so because you know
00:01:23they thought it was too political so they were like fights to even be in that room and you know
00:01:28but clearly it was a I knew as it was happening it wasn't it was it was a momentous scene
00:01:35but I think
00:01:36that's what we live for right to kind of get in those moments and when things are unfolding in front
00:01:41of
00:01:42our of our eyes in front of the cameras and I guess sometimes there are moments that you know you
00:01:47ever pull
00:01:47back is it too intimate I mean those that wasn't the case at that time but I think we all
00:01:52do wrestle
00:01:53with that question given the circuit you know depending on the circumstances Peter earning your
00:01:58film you're following the Oakland Police Department and initially it looks like it's gonna be a positive
00:02:04movie about police reform and then it goes off in a different direction was there part of you says this
00:02:09makes for a better movie you know the first the first challenge you know for me personally and trying
00:02:15to sort of reconcile sort of you know my role as a filmmaker and my my my role is you
00:02:20know you know
00:02:21being a part of this community was was that the the view of this community through the eyes of the
00:02:26police was it was remarkably challenged and these are people that we were capturing in moments maybe
00:02:33the worst days of their of their lives that did not necessarily make themselves or their community look
00:02:39good or or or portray them in a positive light when we're trying so hard to sort of break down
00:02:44stereotypes and or reimagine you know stereotypes so that was trying to figure that out in terms of
00:02:51how we represented that community or how to contextualize that in a meaningful way was incredibly
00:02:56difficult on the institutional level we went in there part of our pitch was you know hey you know
00:03:01your story hasn't been told you've been you know flattened out into two-dimensional narrative we don't
00:03:07we're not gonna make a commercial about this department we promise to tell your story
00:03:41what i like to say is that you know human we we promise to
00:03:44humanize but humanizing doesn't mean making you look good it means unpacking you in your full
00:03:49three dimensions and that's you know for for you know what we do and we're doing a series of films
00:03:56in one american city trying to maintain relationships with the city to do outreach work around our films
00:04:01we wanted to maintain a relationship with this institution so when things happened in the film
00:04:07as they did which went so horribly wrong in the moment yes does it make a more dramatic film absolutely
00:04:13but long-term you know what does this mean you know for our relationship with the city was it both
00:04:19on the institutional level and on the community level so something that you don't really know
00:04:23until that film comes out in terms of how people receive it but it was something that weighed on us
00:04:28very
00:04:29heavily I mean you touch on the subject of how you win the trust of your subjects which is something
00:04:33that I think everyone at this table probably had to go through could you talk a bit about the the
00:04:40journalists from raqqa that that you cover in your film city of ghosts they had every reason to
00:04:46mistrust folks because their lives are in danger how did you convince them it would be a good idea to
00:04:52work with you and for me trust is everything I mean that's like the bedrock for the types of films
00:04:58I
00:04:59have made and hopefully continue will continue to make and you know with these guys these the the members
00:05:06of raqqa's being slaughtered silently a group of activists who band together to expose the atrocities
00:05:12of their hometown in raqqa syria after isis took over and I really wanted to make this a character
00:05:20driven intimate portrait of this group as they were on the run as they're moving from safe house to safe
00:05:26house after members of their group were killed and they're forced to flee bad bad until I come to me
00:05:35be sure I was ok rain now she had to judge a man yeah yeah yeah I'm not any other
00:05:43way it in me
00:06:02you know that access doesn't come overnight it doesn't happen just by calling them on the phone
00:06:07and saying you know can I hang out with you for a week and it happens through weeks and weeks
00:06:11and months
00:06:11and months of rapport and trust building and you know honestly becoming part of the fabric of their
00:06:19daily lives and you know as someone who who shoots and edits that helps you know I'm allowed and I'm
00:06:25able to just get in a room with them and so much of this film takes place in smoky dark
00:06:30rooms that are
00:06:33not that cinematic and so much of the drama plays out in the interior of their minds and and the
00:06:39fear and
00:06:40the hopes and the dreams and and so you know there's a scene at the end of the film where
00:06:45one of our main
00:06:46characters breaks down and as a you know has a nervous breakdown and going back to the first question
00:06:51it was one of the hardest things my whole career that I've ever had to film because as a human
00:06:55being
00:06:56all I wanted to do was was give him a hug I wanted to comfort him I wanted to be
00:07:02a friend to him but my job
00:07:04was also to capture this moment I had originally set out to make this film about this this rivalry
00:07:09this this sort of fight this information war between Isis and this group Iraqis being slaughtered
00:07:14silently but it became much more than that and part of what it became was a story of trauma and
00:07:19so the
00:07:19scene this final scene was so important to capture and I filmed it and it was like one like 90
00:07:25minute
00:07:25take in which I didn't cut and then afterwards you know I gave him a hug and we stayed up
00:07:31I think all
00:07:32night talking about it talking about what he had gone through and you know this incredible scene it's
00:07:37just amazing you know and just that last shot you know I just felt like I was right there and
00:07:42I felt
00:07:43like I felt your conflict actually as you were there filming that because you could sense that you
00:07:49want to give the guy a hug you know and yet you also want to be in that moment it
00:07:52was extraordinary and
00:07:54again I mean you capture many of these moments to your film cries from Syria you talk to a whole
00:08:00range of Syrians and refugees particularly some very young children what were what were what was that
00:08:09like first of all I have the same situation like Matt because you know what you're building this
00:08:14relationship with all these characters I've been in certain situations where people didn't wanted to
00:08:19trust us I had an issue not because my background being Russian and for them Russians are literally killing their
00:08:27own
00:08:28brothers and sisters but because specifically American because for them the revolution started with the
00:08:34all these inspirational elements of Arab Spring and the kids who did graffiti they were inspired by Arab Spring and
00:08:41up until
00:08:422013 people were believing that America will come one day and will help like and do some change like they
00:08:49did in Tunisia
00:08:50or in Iraq on all countries and for them and I guess it was more kind of towards the entire
00:08:57Western world I think for
00:08:58them they felt like Western world betrayed us Western world neglected us and for them I think my kind of
00:09:07coming out to them and saying hey can I tell your story out they were like why
00:09:12why you betrayed us you neglected us I had it with the kids I had it with the more grown
00:09:16-ups people you know what they all were like looking at
00:09:19me why why we should trust you as American who basically neglected us for a long time and I was
00:09:25explaining no we not I can't be responsible for my
00:09:28government I'm responsible for my people so I want to bring your story to my people because Western world not
00:09:34neglected we not betrayed you we don't know anything about you and you know what and slowly with the long
00:09:40period of time I I still
00:09:42started the movie in 2015 and I started major shooting only in 2016 because it took time to research it
00:09:49took time to get close to my characters
00:09:51I had a character like Abdelbasad Sarut with whom I spent it all Ramadan in order to make him comfortable
00:09:59with me in the room and in front of the camera and open his heart because he was fearing the
00:10:04cameras he was fearing the Western world and it was a long journey
00:10:08now kids you know what since I found myself in the situation with the kids since I saw that it
00:10:14started with the kids you know what I wanted to tell their story
00:10:17it's a lost generation of the young kids who been betrayed by their own government but by their own nation
00:10:23and in the same time it's a future generation who will be rebuilding Syria one day
00:10:53in some situations I found myself even giving them the
00:10:57camera and allowing themselves I've been in the orphanages I've been in situations where kids not have family so I
00:11:03was giving them my cameras just to play with that and feel comfortable with me and ask themselves questions but
00:11:09was observing these as observer so I was working in a relationship with some people for weeks with some people
00:11:16like Abdelbasad it took like six months and then a whole Ramadan to create these kind of relationships but you
00:11:23know what
00:11:24the end product was mentioned to tell their story and I think also the trust because of the winch on
00:11:32fire that I did before helps me to create this ability to show them hey I took this nation I
00:11:40took Ukrainian story brought it out so let me do the same with your voice because you needed this people
00:11:47don't know anything because for me who witnessed all the refugee crisis since 2015 European Union and the head
00:11:54headlines who were screaming they coming to take over our cities they it's Islam whom they bring in it's a
00:11:59terrorism whom they bring it and first of all people don't know much about terrorism people don't know anything about
00:12:06ISIS that we actually telling this story so at the end of the day I needed to bring these stories
00:12:11out so we can educate healthy people
00:12:15I mean Brett you face a different challenge in that you made a film about Jane Goodell she's had a
00:12:21lot of experience but you come along and you really want to tell a personal story about her did you
00:12:26have to work to convince her to
00:12:29she had no interest in participating in the film and to be quite candid when I was first parts nor
00:12:35did I
00:12:36you know and once I once I was able to look at the footage I knew instinctively and intuitively what
00:12:45I'd have to offer in the canon of Jane Goodell films which was going to be quite different than anything
00:12:50we'd seen before which is to create a very immersive experience to try to invite the audience to feel what
00:12:56Jane felt when she went into Gombe for the first time but she didn't know that
00:13:01and so to her credit when you approach Jane and you want to do a three hour or two day
00:13:07interview she's got to save the world she's got a lot of other things that are far more important in
00:13:12her mind than sitting down
00:13:14I kind of felt like an ENG camera crew you know and in fact they started by telling me Jane
00:13:21once she said she's told so many stories about her past just use some of the other stuff and I'd
00:13:27already cut the movie when I did my interview
00:13:29I cut the film first and then I do the interview and so I knew that wasn't going to work
00:13:35and I knew that a lot of what we needed to do was way off her regular script if you
00:13:41will
00:13:41and so it became it was a little bit of a Frost Nixon thing I mean I showed up the
00:13:46first question I asked her was do you get tired of telling your story and she looked at me and
00:13:52she said well
00:13:53depends on who's asking the question there was no laughter and it was like very sad and I went touche
00:14:01and at some point I felt that I needed to jog her memory because I was I was probing about
00:14:09some very personal stuff that she hadn't she doesn't discuss that often
00:14:16there were some who tried to discredit my observations because I was a young untrained girl and should therefore be
00:14:23disregarded
00:14:26the result of it all however was that Lewis was able to obtain a grant from the National Geographic Society
00:14:32to continue my study
00:14:37in addition they would be sending out a photographer to document the chimpanzees
00:14:46specifically there's I was trying to jog her memory about Hugo her husband
00:14:49and I showed us her showed her a sequence of Hugo and Jane falling in love through the lens of
00:14:55the camera
00:14:57and she'd never seen any of the footage before she had no idea it existed
00:15:00and you can actually see in her eyes her kind of warming up
00:15:05but to be totally honest it wasn't until the premiere of the film
00:15:09that she or when she saw the film for the first time that she embraced me
00:15:17and to be honest I wouldn't have had it any other way
00:15:20because I think if I had gone into the film with a deeper sort of
00:15:25if I was a sycophant or I was more sort of in awe of her
00:15:30I don't think I would have been able to ask some of the questions I did
00:15:34and what I am so happy about both for her and myself
00:15:38because I don't think her interview would have been good
00:15:40if she was as warm and fuzzy with me as she is now
00:15:43and so the experience now being able to tour with the subject
00:15:49and to be able to experience the film through her eyes
00:15:52and to see how it's taken hold of her and light of her
00:15:56and you know that's that now I cherish every second I can be with her
00:16:02I mean she's really one of the most remarkable people
00:16:04and I think that's walking the earth right now
00:16:06Yeah definitely
00:16:08I mean Amanda I mean you went into a school in Baltimore
00:16:12did they throw open the doors to you or did you have to talk your way in
00:16:16Well I you know had made over 30 short films
00:16:19about first generation students going to college
00:16:22and girls education
00:16:23and so they knew and had seen my other films
00:16:28they saw kids who looked like them
00:16:30mothers that reminded them of their mothers
00:16:32and they knew the tone of my storytelling
00:16:36I was just making shorts with them for several years
00:16:40before my lead in the documentary Blessin
00:16:45who is the captain of the step team
00:16:47invited me to come film the step team
00:16:49she said the next time you're in school with cameras
00:16:51I think you should stop by step practice
00:16:53and I'm a Broadway producer for many years
00:16:57I produced musicals and plays
00:16:59and learned a lot from telling a story on the stage
00:17:03and that's really difficult
00:17:05you don't have a lot of the tricks that you have in film
00:17:08so it's really focusing on good characters and storytelling
00:17:11and I remember walking in with my cameras and they were stepping
00:17:16and I thought oh my god this is what happens in a great musical
00:17:20a character can't speak anymore so they sing
00:17:23and with every clap with every stomp with every breath
00:17:26they were telling the world who they were and who they were going to be
00:17:30I want them to understand that this is way bigger than stepping
00:17:35it's about not making excuses, making sacrifices, having a positive attitude
00:17:41I know what gets tough
00:17:43we're in Baltimore City
00:17:44they come home to no lights, come home to balance and they put
00:17:47not having food in the refrigerator
00:17:49not having a refrigerator at all
00:17:51but when they come to step practice
00:17:53all those things are erased out of their mind
00:17:57so that is why they can succeed
00:17:59because they can make it through step practice
00:18:01so they can make it through life
00:18:02and I was so excited to tell a story of young black women in this country
00:18:07because I don't think they see themselves in popular culture
00:18:10I don't think they look out and say
00:18:12that's me, that's my mom, that's my grandmother
00:18:14I'm also, my hometown is Baltimore
00:18:16so I wanted to change the conversation about Baltimore
00:18:19and I was filming for two years when Freddie Gray was killed
00:18:23and I watched my hometown burn on TV
00:18:26and I knew right away I had to throw out all the footage I had had
00:18:32to start the story there
00:18:34when I saw that mother go in and grab her son
00:18:38and pull him out and hit him upside the head
00:18:40it was like those are my mothers
00:18:41and I was thinking so much about all of your films
00:18:45and I'm so grateful to be here with all of you today
00:18:47and I realized the common thread between all of us
00:18:50is the mothers in our films
00:18:53you know, the mothers who hold up the pictures of their sons
00:18:55that died in Black Lives Matter
00:18:58and, you know, the chimpanzee mother and Flo
00:19:01and Jane and Samantha Powers
00:19:03and Yancey's mothers, you know, still inside my soul
00:19:06and the mothers in Syria and these children, these orphans
00:19:09I mean, the whole universe falls apart when Flo dies
00:19:15you know, so I just, I think that is the common thread
00:19:18and it's so interesting that these mothers, these women
00:19:22are the ones that are holding these communities together
00:19:25Yeah, that's very true
00:19:26It's interesting because when Diane wrote me a song
00:19:29and she offered me to go to Cher
00:19:31I was like, I need a mother figure that talking to the kids
00:19:34you have a great song, but can we get Cher to be a mother?
00:19:38and she said, just talk to her
00:19:40and you know what, I was editing in Prague
00:19:42because Prague was a location where I can jump into the plane
00:19:45go to Turkey then cross the border
00:19:46and in the middle of the night, I'm getting a call from Cher
00:19:49and I said, Cher, I need your other mother with the kids
00:19:52and Cher said, I will do it because I am a mother
00:19:55and we had an amazing conversation, like 30 minutes
00:19:57and then she went a couple of times into the studio
00:20:00she did it for the movie and she did it for the kids
00:20:03and you know what, the same email, like for example
00:20:05I got from Shayla, Shayla Nevins, she wrote me the same thing
00:20:09these kids' voices need to be heard
00:20:12it's, we as the mothers, we need to bring this
00:20:15and one of the elements, like why my movie is graphic
00:20:18and I'm not regretting that I brought quite a high level of graphic images there
00:20:22because I wanted to create this feeling that the mothers in Syria
00:20:27having when they bury their kids
00:20:29I mean, Amanda speaks of mothers
00:20:31and in many ways, yours is the most personal film
00:20:33in that it's about the murder of your brother
00:20:35and the effect that it had on your family
00:20:37did you have to convince your mother to sit for these interviews?
00:20:43both your mother and your sister?
00:20:44Yeah, you know, I didn't have to convince anyone
00:20:47who participated in Strong Island to sit for the film
00:20:51they had, at that point, for 15 years
00:20:54lived with the silence of what had happened to my brother
00:20:58their inability to tell their story in a court of law
00:21:03beyond a grand jury
00:21:05they felt very much that they had been disregarded
00:21:09and that the evidence that they had to offer
00:21:12was not of interest to the police during the investigation
00:21:16and so participating in the film
00:21:18became their way of providing testimony
00:21:22in a way that they hadn't been able to
00:21:24during the proceedings after my brother's death
00:21:31I wanted him to be angry
00:21:35I wanted him to be outraged
00:21:41I wanted him to...
00:21:47I wanted him to get a gun
00:21:53to avenge my son's death
00:21:57my mother especially
00:21:59when she found out that I was making the film
00:22:01she never said no
00:22:02there was not a single instance
00:22:04when my mother said no
00:22:05either to an interview
00:22:06or to us using her home as a staging ground
00:22:10we shot for hours, for days
00:22:12in and around the town where I grew up
00:22:14and we always used her house
00:22:16as a place to keep our gear
00:22:20but going back to your first question
00:22:23my biggest challenge in making Strong Island
00:22:26was actually having to decide
00:22:30to shoot my mother dying in the ICU
00:22:34it took me a while to actually hear
00:22:36what people were saying
00:22:38it took me a while to hear
00:22:40the neurosurgeon say
00:22:42it's inoperable
00:22:43and to understand that
00:22:45it's inoperable actually means
00:22:47she's going to die
00:22:48and when I put those two things together
00:22:51I immediately knew as a director
00:22:53that my main character's arc
00:22:56was playing out in front of me
00:22:57and that I had a choice to make
00:22:59and I also had this tug of
00:23:04how can you be talking about your mother
00:23:05as a character when she's dying
00:23:07but how can you not talk about your mother
00:23:10as a character
00:23:11because she is like the tent pole character
00:23:13in this film
00:23:14so I blocked out five shots
00:23:18four of them made it into the film
00:23:20and I realized that the solution
00:23:23to the problem that I was having
00:23:25I could solve in the edit
00:23:27the ethical decision for me
00:23:29would be made in the edit
00:23:30if I didn't have the material
00:23:32I wouldn't be able to make the choice
00:23:34and so my DP came
00:23:36we shot those four blocked shots
00:23:39he then went and drove around the hospital grounds
00:23:43turned the camera upside down
00:23:45because he didn't have his tripod with him
00:23:46jammed it in between the dashboard
00:23:48and the windshield
00:23:49and that sequence of shots
00:23:53is presented as they were produced
00:23:55in real life in the film
00:23:57without that decision
00:23:58I think that Strong Island would not be complete as a film
00:24:03it's interesting, I think all of us face this dilemma
00:24:05as filmmakers
00:24:06particularly when we are making films about people we know
00:24:09and we come to know them
00:24:10yours is the most intimate case of that
00:24:12you know, but we all sort of have to decide
00:24:14how do we push ourselves
00:24:16how do we push these relationships with people
00:24:18that we spend a lot of time with
00:24:19they'll put a pair of glasses on you
00:24:22and they take you into the Zaatari refugee camp
00:24:23okay
00:24:24thank you
00:24:25thank you, wow, it's very powerful
00:24:29and then they hook you up to talk to a person in the camp
00:24:32wow, this is amazing
00:24:33Ahelan, I'm well
00:24:36brings home the serious stakes
00:24:38absolutely, thank you
00:24:38it's just right there
00:24:39and I'm going to try to go to the SG
00:24:41and get him to keep it
00:24:41because it's
00:24:42if we're trying to raise money
00:24:44and you know, get people to support these people in the camps
00:24:46and you know
00:24:47when I started this film
00:24:48I hadn't seen Samantha in a couple of years
00:24:50because of her new job
00:24:52it was quite inaccessible
00:24:53but you know
00:24:55she was
00:24:55and others were very uncomfortable
00:24:56with the amount of time
00:24:58I was spending on the whole Syria question
00:25:00for instance
00:25:01you know
00:25:02because I mean
00:25:03I got to know these people
00:25:05but they're also politicians
00:25:06and government officials
00:25:07with an agenda
00:25:08and trying to you know
00:25:09kind of define their legacy
00:25:11but it's like
00:25:12we find this all the time
00:25:13like when do we push
00:25:14because ultimately
00:25:15people can say
00:25:16you're pushing too hard
00:25:17stop
00:25:18and you know
00:25:19that's always kind of
00:25:21but you have to sort of
00:25:22take that risk
00:25:23to get what we need
00:25:25to kind of push through that barrier
00:25:26and usually they don't say that
00:25:27but it's
00:25:28I've so felt that in your film
00:25:30it's just like this
00:25:31this intimacy
00:25:32with your own mother
00:25:33and yourself
00:25:33and your honesty
00:25:34having yourself in the film
00:25:36as a
00:25:36as an interviewee
00:25:37was just
00:25:38kind of groundbreaking
00:25:39I thought
00:25:40and really brave
00:25:52do you have to get releases
00:25:54from like the cops
00:25:55in the forest
00:25:56when you're shooting?
00:25:57that was actually
00:25:58we hired a first amendment attorney
00:26:01because we knew
00:26:02that we were going to be out
00:26:03sort of you know
00:26:04with the cops
00:26:05who were basically interacting
00:26:07with people who aren't going to look good
00:26:10who haven't gone through the justice system yet
00:26:12so if you're if you're filming somebody
00:26:14who's being detained by the police
00:26:16or even arrested
00:26:17that that person hasn't necessarily been
00:26:19that hasn't been adjudicated yet right
00:26:21and so we had to really figure that out
00:26:23from a legal point
00:26:24but the same thing that allows you to sort of film
00:26:27a cop taking an action
00:26:30also protects our ability
00:26:32sort of as filmmakers and journalists
00:26:34to record stuff out
00:26:36and also in all of the
00:26:37the protests
00:26:38because we filmed right after
00:26:40Darren Wilson was not indicted
00:26:42for the shooting of Mike Brown
00:26:43like that spawned
00:26:44weeks of protests
00:26:45in Oakland
00:26:46where we were out
00:26:48you know
00:26:48filming all that
00:26:49amidst people who didn't want to be filmed
00:26:51but at the same time
00:26:53we're raising their voice
00:26:54in protest
00:26:55and so we we
00:26:56you know legally
00:26:58you have the right to do it
00:26:59but it really comes down
00:27:00to sort of ethically
00:27:01what are you communicating
00:27:03with the scene
00:27:04and so we had we
00:27:05there's so many moments
00:27:07that we chose
00:27:09you have to get it
00:27:10on camera
00:27:12because then you have to figure it out
00:27:14in the edit room
00:27:14you know
00:27:15how is this going to play
00:27:16how is this person going to be perceived
00:27:19what does this communicate
00:27:20and that's your ultimate responsibility
00:27:22and what impact is going to have on their life
00:27:23when the film goes out
00:27:24absolutely
00:27:25I had 19 minors in my movie
00:27:26so it wasn't just them signing release forms
00:27:29their families
00:27:29and parents
00:27:30their guardians
00:27:31whoever they were
00:27:31had to sign forms
00:27:33so it was going to every mother
00:27:35and father
00:27:36in whatever case I was
00:27:38and something that I think
00:27:41helped me understand my responsibility
00:27:44to the young women
00:27:45that every time
00:27:47like even if I was filming something
00:27:48that was uncomfortable
00:27:49it's kind of like what you were saying
00:27:50like if I didn't shoot it
00:27:51then I would never have it
00:27:52it would be gone forever
00:27:53so it was
00:27:54there was one circumstance
00:27:55where I had a conversation
00:27:56with one of the young women
00:27:57and I was like look
00:27:58we need to shoot this
00:27:59I'm not giving you editorial control
00:28:02over this film
00:28:03but I will cut this scene
00:28:05and then we can discuss it
00:28:07I think having that trust
00:28:09where you can have a very frank conversation
00:28:12and they trust you to not take advantage
00:28:14of the situation
00:28:15I think
00:28:16I think an interesting question
00:28:17is also not just
00:28:18subjects that you love
00:28:20or subjects that you care for
00:28:23but you know
00:28:24in my last couple of films
00:28:25I've spent time with subjects
00:28:26that I actively disagree with
00:28:28and or don't necessarily empathize with
00:28:32per se
00:28:33but I think that's
00:28:34that's sort of the interesting conundrum
00:28:36that we find ourselves with
00:28:37in often
00:28:38in making these films
00:28:39is for me
00:28:40my sort of north star
00:28:42is you treat everyone the same
00:28:44no matter how much I dislike
00:28:45like
00:28:46love
00:28:47hate
00:28:47the fact that they're willing to
00:28:49bare their soul
00:28:50the fact that they're willing to tell their story
00:28:51the fact that they're willing to
00:28:53go on camera
00:28:55you have to treat them with respect
00:28:57you have to treat them fairly
00:28:58and I think that's
00:29:00an important thing to recognize
00:29:02it's a great privilege actually
00:29:03when people
00:29:04yeah it's a huge privilege
00:29:05and in my situation
00:29:06all my characters
00:29:07from previous movies
00:29:08and this movie
00:29:09they became like
00:29:10a part of my family
00:29:11and for example
00:29:12some of them
00:29:12still on the grounds of Syria
00:29:13like Hadi al-Abdullahi
00:29:15he is still there
00:29:16and he is still reporting
00:29:18from Adlib
00:29:18or Abdelbasid Sarut
00:29:20he just came out
00:29:21of the Al-Qaeda prison
00:29:23so I was like worried
00:29:24I was the one
00:29:25who was trying to convince him
00:29:26to get out of Syria
00:29:27and he didn't want it
00:29:28and these people
00:29:29with whom I spend most of my time
00:29:31and it took some kind of
00:29:33time to build the relationships
00:29:34I'm becoming like a brother to them
00:29:37one of the big challenges
00:29:38I think with
00:29:39in terms of
00:29:40the relationships
00:29:41we all have with our characters
00:29:43because whether we work archival
00:29:44or Verite
00:29:47we have that
00:29:47ongoing strong relationship
00:29:49like I lived with Bob Evans
00:29:50for a year when I was doing
00:29:51the kids days in the picture
00:29:52and during the time
00:29:55that we're making these films
00:29:57the people are as
00:29:58they're family to us
00:29:59they're more than family
00:30:01we spend most of our waking hours
00:30:03with them
00:30:04I find one of the hardest things
00:30:05about being a documentary filmmaker
00:30:06is then you go on
00:30:08and you have to go on
00:30:09to the next film
00:30:10and particularly
00:30:11when the subjects
00:30:12aren't celebrities
00:30:12like when I did On the Ropes
00:30:14and I'm sure you're dealing
00:30:15with this with your film
00:30:16for them that moment
00:30:17is so intense
00:30:19when they're in the limelight
00:30:20for that moment
00:30:21your film's coming out
00:30:22It's also challenging
00:30:23when they don't like
00:30:23what you've done
00:30:24with their stories too
00:30:25which often happens, right?
00:30:27we also sat down
00:30:28Amanda showed me
00:30:29she's getting text messages
00:30:30from the students
00:30:31that are in her film
00:30:33We have a text group
00:30:34and they knew
00:30:35I was coming here today
00:30:36and they were texting me
00:30:37to break a leg
00:30:38in little emojis
00:30:39and I mean
00:30:41I think
00:30:43as documentarians today
00:30:45we have a very different
00:30:46responsibility
00:30:47than 20 years ago
00:30:48it's an incredible time
00:30:50to make documentaries
00:30:51millions and millions
00:30:52of people see these movies now
00:30:54and a lot of times
00:30:56I don't think subjects
00:30:57know what they're getting into
00:30:58my girls certainly
00:31:00do not think
00:31:01that anything
00:31:01that has happened
00:31:02with Step was going to happen
00:31:04and you know
00:31:05when I made the film
00:31:06I made it so that
00:31:07they could go back
00:31:08to their hometowns
00:31:09with their heads held high
00:31:10that was the only thing
00:31:11I wanted for it
00:31:12and I just think
00:31:13now it's just a different
00:31:14you have a responsibility
00:31:16that you didn't have before
00:31:17and
00:31:18I don't know if that's
00:31:19I mean I don't
00:31:19I don't
00:31:20I did On the Ropes 20 years ago
00:31:22and it was the same thing
00:31:23that I think
00:31:24you're dealing with
00:31:24with Step in terms
00:31:25of the relationship
00:31:26I don't think that's changed
00:31:27I'm talking what's changed
00:31:29is the amount of eyeballs
00:31:30that get deceived
00:31:32with you know
00:31:33the scale of which
00:31:34these people
00:31:36are all over the world
00:31:37watching your movies
00:31:38being recognized
00:31:39yes being recognized
00:31:39they didn't
00:31:40you know I think that's
00:31:41I don't think that's a full
00:31:42I don't think people
00:31:43fully comprehend that
00:31:44even though we've had
00:31:46documentaries for some time
00:31:49and we always wrestle with that
00:31:51in terms of when we go in
00:31:52and we're talking to subjects
00:31:53and we're talking about
00:31:54for us
00:31:55in my company
00:31:56it's a multi-year initiative
00:31:57maybe decades long thing
00:31:59where we have relationships
00:32:00with the entire community
00:32:01and you don't know
00:32:03what's going to happen
00:32:04to your film
00:32:04you don't know if it's going
00:32:05to go to Sundance
00:32:06or whether 10 million people
00:32:07are going to see it
00:32:08or 100,000 people
00:32:10but it does make a difference
00:32:11particularly
00:32:12when you're showing people
00:32:13in compromised situations
00:32:14or people who
00:32:15you know
00:32:16may be putting themselves
00:32:17at risk
00:32:18you know
00:32:18100,000 versus 10 million people
00:32:21is a big difference
00:32:23and so
00:32:24how do we
00:32:24how do we communicate to them
00:32:26the potential consequences
00:32:27without undermining
00:32:29what we're trying to do
00:32:30in the first place
00:32:31which is gain their trusting
00:32:32here
00:32:32right
00:32:33the risk in Strong Island
00:32:34was to step forward
00:32:36after you know
00:32:37after many many years
00:32:39of silence
00:32:39and to trust me
00:32:41to be the person
00:32:42to tell the story
00:32:43me who
00:32:44none of these people
00:32:45outside of my family
00:32:46knew
00:32:47that I was a filmmaker
00:32:48I hadn't spoken to
00:32:50my brother's friend
00:32:51who was with him
00:32:52the night he was shot
00:32:53since that night
00:32:55my
00:32:55you know
00:32:56his other friends
00:32:57and other characters
00:32:58in the film
00:32:58I hadn't spoken to them
00:33:00in over a decade
00:33:02so
00:33:02part of the risk
00:33:04for
00:33:04for those people
00:33:05was
00:33:05you know
00:33:06to respond
00:33:07to a call
00:33:09literally
00:33:09from the past
00:33:11right
00:33:12asking them
00:33:12to step back
00:33:13into one of the most
00:33:14painful times
00:33:15of their lives
00:33:16with me
00:33:17actually not
00:33:18particularly interested
00:33:19in
00:33:21or not
00:33:22necessarily having
00:33:23the kind of dynamic
00:33:24that results in people
00:33:25feeling like family
00:33:27the kind of dynamic
00:33:28that came out
00:33:30of Strong Island
00:33:30was
00:33:31that
00:33:32they felt like
00:33:33I had provided them
00:33:34you know
00:33:35the platform to be heard
00:33:36and
00:33:38that is
00:33:38that's a really
00:33:39you know
00:33:40sort of deep responsibility
00:33:41that I took very seriously
00:33:42and some of the characters
00:33:43that are in the film
00:33:44weren't originally in the film
00:33:46my sister
00:33:47because of what happens
00:33:48to documentary
00:33:49you know
00:33:50subjects
00:33:50wasn't originally in the film
00:33:52I was being very protective of her
00:33:54but I realized
00:33:55without her voice
00:33:56that the story was incomplete
00:33:59and
00:33:59you know
00:34:00you didn't want her in the film
00:34:01no I didn't want her in the film
00:34:02I was
00:34:02I was very protective
00:34:04it was a very difficult time for her
00:34:05the interviews were really raw
00:34:08and I
00:34:09you know
00:34:09I wrestled with
00:34:11even though I shot the interviews
00:34:12I wrestled with
00:34:14whether or not to use them
00:34:15for years
00:34:15and I had thought
00:34:17you know
00:34:17because there are so many films
00:34:19about the
00:34:20you know
00:34:20black experience with violence
00:34:21that are
00:34:22so often authenticated
00:34:23by white characters
00:34:24I was trying to make this film
00:34:26without any white characters
00:34:28but
00:34:29David Breen
00:34:29the
00:34:30you know
00:34:31the ADA
00:34:31who was shot
00:34:32at a bank robbery
00:34:33he is the only person
00:34:35that I know
00:34:36who can talk about
00:34:37what it's like
00:34:38to be shot
00:34:39and
00:34:40he acts as the proxy
00:34:41for my brother
00:34:42right
00:34:43and so
00:34:44there are
00:34:45those kinds of decisions
00:34:46you know
00:34:47and especially
00:34:48in a formal film
00:34:49as opposed to a verite film
00:34:51when
00:34:52when it's a very constructed experience
00:34:54you know
00:34:55everyone
00:34:55really
00:34:56is like
00:34:57a discreet chapter
00:34:58you know
00:34:59and in those discreet chapters
00:35:01those characters
00:35:01get to be their full selves
00:35:03and
00:35:04I'm really glad
00:35:04that I made that decision
00:35:05because otherwise
00:35:06I would have been doing them
00:35:07a disservice
00:35:08and I would have done this
00:35:09done the film a disservice
00:35:11it's still a leap of faith
00:35:12you're asking your
00:35:13your characters to go on
00:35:14a leap of faith
00:35:15with you
00:35:15which is what I always tell people
00:35:17and be upfront about it
00:35:18but it's you know
00:35:19because
00:35:19Matt
00:35:20your subjects
00:35:21I mean
00:35:22during the course of the film
00:35:23they're making the decision
00:35:25to be more public
00:35:26to try to get attention to the cause
00:35:27their city in Raqqa
00:35:31have you been in touch with them
00:35:32as we're filming
00:35:32I mean Raqqa is now seemingly liberated
00:35:35have you been in touch
00:35:36over the past few days
00:35:37and how are they responding to the news
00:35:39yeah I mean similarly
00:35:41we have a text group
00:35:42and we text almost every single day
00:35:45yeah the news that Raqqa has been liberated
00:35:48is quite bittersweet
00:35:50I mean it's good that ISIS is gone
00:35:52but I think
00:35:54you know one thing that we
00:35:56you know we sort of
00:35:59if past is prologue
00:36:00we sort of shoot first
00:36:01and ask questions later
00:36:02and you know what's next
00:36:03what's the plan
00:36:04and I don't see much of a plan
00:36:06and I think
00:36:07you know one of the big themes
00:36:09in my film
00:36:10and one of the big
00:36:12poignant themes in my films
00:36:13especially now
00:36:14is that
00:36:15ISIS is an idea
00:36:17you can't fight an idea with weapons
00:36:19you can't fight an idea with bombs
00:36:21you can't fight an idea with guns
00:36:22so how do we fight
00:36:24this
00:36:25this sort of
00:36:26you know original
00:36:28things that
00:36:29that allowed
00:36:30ISIS to flourish in the first place
00:36:32how do we combat that
00:36:33and I think
00:36:33that remains to be seen
00:36:35and that's one you know
00:36:36one of the sad realities
00:36:37is that
00:36:38this is not a happy ending right now
00:36:41and I think
00:36:41I wish
00:36:42I wish it wasn't the case
00:36:43but I think
00:36:44you know
00:36:45they're not going home anytime soon
00:36:47but going back to
00:36:48sort of Amanda's question
00:36:49or Amanda's point earlier
00:36:50is I think
00:36:51one thing that is quite different
00:36:54in documentaries now
00:36:55than say 20 years ago
00:36:56is that
00:36:57you know
00:36:57you could go off to Syria
00:36:59you could go off to Mexico
00:37:00you could go off to some place
00:37:01and legitimately tell someone
00:37:03you know
00:37:03I'd like to tell your story
00:37:05but that story
00:37:06might not necessarily
00:37:07make it back
00:37:07to where they live
00:37:09Building off your thought of
00:37:10how these films now
00:37:12can get much more exposure
00:37:13I mean the flip side of that
00:37:15is
00:37:15they are competing with
00:37:17hundreds of other films
00:37:18whether it's on Netflix
00:37:19or Amazon
00:37:19or any of the other sites
00:37:22when you bring a film out
00:37:23is part of your job now
00:37:25to create a social media presence
00:37:27for that film
00:37:28and
00:37:28and even though you want
00:37:29might want to get on
00:37:30to the next film
00:37:31to carve out six months
00:37:32to promote the current movie
00:37:34how are you all dealing
00:37:35with that question
00:37:36I mean it's time consuming
00:37:37you have to like to vote
00:37:38it's almost a full-time job
00:37:40now taking a film out
00:37:41into the world
00:37:42and
00:37:42you know
00:37:43with this particular film
00:37:44it's about a moment in time
00:37:46the last year of the Obama presidency
00:37:48that is now
00:37:49a thing of the past
00:37:50so you know
00:37:51I think when people watch it
00:37:53I've showed it four times
00:37:54twice in Toronto
00:37:55twice in London publicly
00:37:56and so
00:37:56it seems that people
00:37:58are watching it with
00:37:58watching the film
00:38:00and then watching
00:38:01the narrative
00:38:02that's going through their mind
00:38:03of what's going on
00:38:04in the world today
00:38:04which is very different
00:38:06but so
00:38:06just engaging with that
00:38:08and figuring out
00:38:08how to engage with that
00:38:09I mean
00:38:09we're still starting
00:38:10to be honest with you
00:38:11because I don't want to
00:38:12insert myself
00:38:13into the political arena
00:38:14although I know
00:38:15it's going to happen
00:38:16when this thing goes out
00:38:17but just in terms of like
00:38:19for any film
00:38:19a plan to kind of
00:38:20get it noticed
00:38:22it's actually
00:38:23it's a lot
00:38:23it's a lot of work
00:38:24and we generally
00:38:25it's not built into the budget
00:38:27and all that
00:38:27this is just what you do
00:38:28because you believe
00:38:29in your project
00:38:29I think there's a shift
00:38:31from
00:38:31I think most of us
00:38:32probably produce
00:38:33and direct our work
00:38:34and it's very hard to define
00:38:36when we're directing
00:38:37when we're producing
00:38:37but the moment the film
00:38:38has been color corrected
00:38:41the mix is done
00:38:42everything is done
00:38:42kind of our work
00:38:43as a director is over
00:38:44and then it becomes
00:38:46the role of the producer
00:38:47and I know we don't have
00:38:49DVDs anymore
00:38:50but to me
00:38:51I used to think that
00:38:52you have to shepherd that film
00:38:53to the very end
00:38:54which would be
00:38:55either a home video
00:38:56or broadcast
00:38:57the time
00:38:57in the schedule
00:38:59going I'm going to spend
00:38:59the next four or five months
00:39:01with this film
00:39:01because these are our babies
00:39:03and we want to see
00:39:03that they're brought into the world
00:39:05in the best possible manner
00:39:06they have the best opportunities
00:39:07to walking around
00:39:10and for Winter on Fire
00:39:11I just want to tell you
00:39:12for example
00:39:13there's all social media
00:39:14that we've been able
00:39:15to create around the movie
00:39:17it's my previous movie
00:39:18I learned this year
00:39:20that the movie
00:39:20like a baby
00:39:21started to do its own steps
00:39:23Venezuela was using this
00:39:25as their manual
00:39:26for the revolution this year
00:39:27and I was like
00:39:27wow
00:39:28the movie
00:39:29during some change to the world
00:39:30I all of the sudden
00:39:32got a call from Brazil
00:39:33where opposition
00:39:34used it last year
00:39:35to impeach the president
00:39:36and I was like
00:39:36wow
00:39:37so nothing to do with Ukraine
00:39:39nothing to do with the European Union
00:39:41all of the sudden
00:39:42it's doing some changes
00:39:43in Latin America
00:39:44so the social component
00:39:46I exist
00:39:47and it's great
00:39:48but we as the filmmakers
00:39:50we're starting to learn
00:39:51more and more
00:39:51and involve ourselves
00:39:53more and more
00:39:53and for example
00:39:54I just had a conversation
00:39:55before the table
00:39:56and we were talking
00:39:57what are you doing next
00:39:58what are you doing next
00:39:58and we all over the sudden
00:40:00we're not finding ourselves
00:40:01on the set
00:40:02back to do next movie
00:40:04we're finding ourselves
00:40:04to promote in the movie
00:40:05and if
00:40:06in the winds on fire
00:40:07I was a filmmaker
00:40:08these days with Christ from Syria
00:40:10I find myself
00:40:11being activist
00:40:12protecting
00:40:12the First Amendment
00:40:14of the Constitution
00:40:14because these people
00:40:16in Syria
00:40:16were fighting for the freedom of speech
00:40:17since 2011
00:40:18and I'm finding myself
00:40:20in 2007
00:40:21us Americans
00:40:22finding ourselves
00:40:24on the streets
00:40:25protesting peacefully
00:40:26like them protesting
00:40:27and we're fighting
00:40:28our freedom of speech
00:40:29here right now
00:40:30we as the filmmakers
00:40:31we need to preserve these elements
00:40:33and specifically
00:40:34in the climate of our country
00:40:35we're finding ourselves
00:40:37that there is a threat
00:40:38to the First Amendment
00:40:39there is a threat
00:40:40to the freedom of speech
00:40:41and we
00:40:42if we want to continue
00:40:43making movies
00:40:44and express ourselves
00:40:45we need to preserve this
00:40:46so all of the sudden
00:40:47I'm not kind of
00:40:49finding myself
00:40:49going to the next project
00:40:51I need to advance this project
00:40:53in order to preserve these elements
00:40:55for all of us
00:40:56it's not just a threat
00:40:57to the First Amendment
00:40:58and freedom of speech
00:40:58it's a threat
00:40:59to the freedom of the press
00:41:01it's a threat
00:41:01to the right
00:41:02to peaceful assembly
00:41:03it's a threat
00:41:04to protesting
00:41:06just in general
00:41:08you know
00:41:09what communities
00:41:10have experienced
00:41:11as abuse of power
00:41:12you know
00:41:13around the country
00:41:14Strong Island
00:41:15is a personal story
00:41:16that's true
00:41:16but the end of the film
00:41:18is a really pointed question
00:41:19about how we decide
00:41:21whose fear is reasonable
00:41:22and for the last
00:41:24you know
00:41:24since 2012
00:41:26you know
00:41:27when Trayvon Martin
00:41:28was shot and killed
00:41:28by George Zimmerman
00:41:29in February 2012
00:41:31we have been confronted
00:41:33with more and more
00:41:34of these self-defense cases
00:41:35right
00:41:36and every single
00:41:37self-defense case
00:41:38the narrative
00:41:39is the same now
00:41:40as it was
00:41:41with my brother's case
00:41:4125 years ago
00:41:42which means
00:41:43that we have
00:41:44a serious problem
00:41:46in our criminal justice system
00:41:47that now
00:41:48is being backed up
00:41:49with data
00:41:50that's now being backed up
00:41:52with scholarship
00:41:52that's now being backed up
00:41:54by academics
00:41:55from the Marshall Project
00:41:56to the Brennan Center
00:41:57who are coming out
00:41:59with studies
00:41:59they've crunched the numbers
00:42:00they have the data
00:42:01that prove
00:42:02that the implicit bias
00:42:03or the explicit bias
00:42:04is there
00:42:05and that it's influencing
00:42:07the way that our criminal
00:42:08justice system
00:42:09arrests people
00:42:10sentences people
00:42:11and still
00:42:12because we live
00:42:13in an age now
00:42:14where reason
00:42:15has somehow
00:42:17become a pariah
00:42:21and you know
00:42:22it's partly
00:42:23my responsibility
00:42:24to use the film
00:42:25to say
00:42:26okay
00:42:26if this sounds familiar
00:42:28to you
00:42:29it's not an accident
00:42:30right
00:42:31when you're promoting
00:42:32your film
00:42:32you're not retelling
00:42:34the story of the film
00:42:35per se
00:42:36you're
00:42:37moving on
00:42:38to the larger topic
00:42:39that the film
00:42:40casts a light on
00:42:41I'm telling this
00:42:42I'm telling the story
00:42:42that might happen tomorrow
00:42:43I'm telling the story
00:42:45that happened last week
00:42:46you know
00:42:46it's not
00:42:48you know
00:42:48William is a point
00:42:49on a line
00:42:50that continues
00:42:51through this day
00:42:53several of your films
00:42:53function as a form
00:42:55of journalism
00:42:55and they draw on
00:42:56existing journalism
00:42:57and the president's
00:42:59mantra now
00:43:00is fake news
00:43:00I mean
00:43:01you know
00:43:02what's your reaction?
00:43:03They spark conversations
00:43:04on social media
00:43:05because this goes back
00:43:06to the role of social media
00:43:08when we finish a film
00:43:09and then
00:43:09what happens after that
00:43:12now
00:43:13if you're not satisfied
00:43:14with how the mainstream media
00:43:16is talking about an issue
00:43:18all you need to do
00:43:19is go out into social media
00:43:20and you can see these
00:43:20dynamic
00:43:22conversations happening
00:43:23and when our films
00:43:24come out
00:43:24we have to think about
00:43:26how do our films
00:43:27fit into those
00:43:29dynamic conversations
00:43:30and how can we use that
00:43:32to kind of like
00:43:32pour a little bit of gasoline
00:43:33but you have to do it in a very
00:43:34you can't just like
00:43:36send your film out
00:43:37and drop it into the
00:43:38into the social media universe
00:43:39because sometimes
00:43:40it can get distorted
00:43:41that may be different
00:43:43from your intent
00:43:43as an artist
00:43:44because we are artists
00:43:45we have intent
00:43:47and that's what I find
00:43:48to be particularly exciting
00:43:50albeit time consuming
00:43:52and expensive
00:43:52and so
00:43:53depending on whether
00:43:54you have you know
00:43:55Amazon or Netflix
00:43:58behind your film
00:43:59we have a smaller
00:44:00I don't know how it operates
00:44:02from film to film
00:44:03but those conversations
00:44:05and sort of the reimaginings
00:44:07of these films
00:44:09are incredibly important
00:44:10and taking place
00:44:12in the social media
00:44:14especially now
00:44:15where we have such divisiveness
00:44:17the purpose
00:44:18I think one of the most
00:44:19interesting things though
00:44:20and I think you were
00:44:20addressing this as well
00:44:21is how the purpose shifts
00:44:23how it changes
00:44:24when we made Jane
00:44:25people asked me
00:44:26the film was sitting
00:44:27in a storage unit
00:44:28for 50 years
00:44:29and so they said
00:44:30why is it happening now
00:44:31and when I got hired
00:44:35in 2015
00:44:35early 2015 or 2014
00:44:38the world was so different
00:44:40than it is now
00:44:42and the other night
00:44:43we were at a premiere
00:44:45and one of the reporters
00:44:47asked me about
00:44:48Harvey Weinstein
00:44:49the Weinstein story
00:44:51broke the night
00:44:51that we were bringing
00:44:53out a story
00:44:54a 55 year old story
00:44:56about a woman
00:44:57who had to overcome
00:45:02insurmountable obstacles
00:45:03and odds
00:45:04that were brought on
00:45:05by the sort of
00:45:06male dominated culture
00:45:07and to have that sort of
00:45:08heroic tale
00:45:09of a real hero
00:45:12emerging in the midst
00:45:14of this sort of
00:45:15puddle of darkness
00:45:16that we're in
00:45:17just changed the whole
00:45:18discourse
00:45:19it seemed to me
00:45:20and the film shifted
00:45:22in my mind
00:45:24and in Jane's mind
00:45:25and in the way
00:45:26that people sort of
00:45:27have been asking us
00:45:28questions the last few weeks
00:45:29so it's very interesting
00:45:30how these things become
00:45:32well Greg's a terrific
00:45:34example of it
00:45:35that Greg's entire film
00:45:36you cannot watch his film
00:45:38in fact you clearly
00:45:40in the edit room
00:45:42you know
00:45:43you can't help but over
00:45:45Trump is just looming
00:45:46through the film
00:45:47I was actually talking
00:45:48about it
00:45:49I was like how much of
00:45:50how much would the edit
00:45:51have changed
00:45:53if Hillary won?
00:45:55I think you know
00:45:55it's interesting
00:45:56because clearly
00:45:56I knew going into it
00:45:58it was going to be
00:45:58a momentous year
00:45:59I just had a gut feeling
00:46:00the last year
00:46:01of the Obama presidency
00:46:02so I pushed for the access
00:46:03and it was a struggle
00:46:04but once we started going
00:46:06you could just feel
00:46:07that there was
00:46:07this was a massive moment
00:46:09in our history
00:46:10clearly
00:46:12everyone thought
00:46:13involved
00:46:14that Hillary was going
00:46:15to win
00:46:15did you?
00:46:16I mean
00:46:16I asked them at one point
00:46:19do I have to be worried
00:46:20because if you're not worried
00:46:21you guys know what you're doing
00:46:22I think it's
00:46:23you know
00:46:23they're like no no
00:46:24it's going to be fine
00:46:24I'm like okay
00:46:25so I believe you
00:46:26you guys are the pros
00:46:27you're the experts
00:46:27but I think
00:46:28but what was interesting
00:46:29is you know
00:46:30in the film
00:46:30there's a scene
00:46:30where Obama goes to Greece
00:46:33after the election
00:46:35and that was planned beforehand
00:46:37and I think
00:46:39so what would have happened
00:46:40had Hillary won
00:46:40is they were going to
00:46:41sort of talk about
00:46:43how close we came
00:46:44he was going to give
00:46:45he ended up giving
00:46:46a speech indoors
00:46:47my understanding is
00:46:48they were going to give
00:46:49a speech outdoors
00:46:49on the steps of the Parthenon
00:46:51and talk about
00:46:52how fragile our democracy
00:46:53can be
00:46:54you know
00:46:55and that's where the film
00:46:57was going to inhabit
00:46:57like look how close we came
00:46:59and to an authoritarian
00:47:02and you know
00:47:03then
00:47:04once the election happened
00:47:06they had to change the optics
00:47:07but I think
00:47:07I had a feeling
00:47:08that we were kind of
00:47:09in this momentous terrain
00:47:11but whenever
00:47:12I mean somebody
00:47:12well HBO funded the film
00:47:14and so Sheila Nevins
00:47:15asked me at the very beginning
00:47:16how do we know
00:47:17anything's going to happen
00:47:17it's like you don't
00:47:19but you know
00:47:20we just spend time
00:47:21with the characters
00:47:22and eventually
00:47:22if we're there enough
00:47:25they trust us enough
00:47:26hopefully something happens
00:47:27in front of the cameras
00:47:28now that
00:47:29we have a different
00:47:30administration in place
00:47:31different challenges
00:47:32for filmmakers
00:47:33I wonder if you think
00:47:34it's even more important
00:47:35for your colleagues
00:47:37to try to get in there
00:47:38and capture what's happening
00:47:39I think
00:47:40absolutely
00:47:40I think not just
00:47:42because of Trump
00:47:43I think you know
00:47:44just in the world
00:47:45the landscape
00:47:46that we're living in
00:47:47is so different
00:47:47and I think
00:47:48we as documentary filmmakers
00:47:50is such a greater responsibility
00:47:52I mean there's less and less money
00:47:53in foreign bureaus
00:47:54you know
00:47:55newspaper industry is dying
00:47:56you know
00:47:57I think long form
00:47:58investigative journalism
00:47:59is not what it used to be
00:48:01and I think
00:48:01documentary film
00:48:02is sort of
00:48:03filling that void
00:48:04and simultaneously also
00:48:05I mean obviously
00:48:06that's part of what my film
00:48:07is about
00:48:08citizen journalism
00:48:09is becoming more
00:48:10and more important
00:48:11as you know
00:48:12technology has been democratized
00:48:14and avenues of distribution
00:48:15have been democratized
00:48:17you know
00:48:18I think
00:48:18a big part of what my film
00:48:19is about
00:48:20sort of an homage
00:48:22to journalism
00:48:22and I think
00:48:23as we look to the future
00:48:24we're going to rely more
00:48:25and more
00:48:26on sort of first person
00:48:28testimony
00:48:28right
00:48:29and I think in terms of
00:48:30citizen journalism
00:48:31I think what I find
00:48:33really ironic
00:48:34is that we have had
00:48:35citizen journalism
00:48:36at least
00:48:37you know
00:48:37in this country
00:48:38I've been able to trace
00:48:39it back to
00:48:40you know
00:48:41it's the Zabruder film
00:48:42right
00:48:43and Kennedy's assassination
00:48:45like the first time
00:48:46that we all saw
00:48:47you know
00:48:47one piece of tape
00:48:48as a nation
00:48:49and then after that
00:48:51maybe it was
00:48:52I mean Kennedy
00:48:53you know
00:48:54Malcolm X maybe
00:48:55but then
00:48:56really the zeitgeist moment
00:48:58was the Rodney King tape
00:49:00yes
00:49:00right
00:49:01the Rodney King tape
00:49:02and the subsequent verdict
00:49:04was the first time
00:49:05in our country
00:49:06where everyone saw
00:49:07the same piece
00:49:08of citizen journalism
00:49:10and went away
00:49:11from that tape
00:49:12believing two different things
00:49:14believing that a man
00:49:15who had almost been
00:49:16beaten to death
00:49:17was still a threat
00:49:18and believing that
00:49:19the police officers
00:49:20who were acting in the manner
00:49:21that they did
00:49:22had no other choice
00:49:23that I think that's
00:49:24what one of the big differences
00:49:25is
00:49:27I at least
00:49:27I mean whatever
00:49:28I'm 49
00:49:29so I sort of remember
00:49:31what
00:49:32it's some
00:49:32there's been a shift
00:49:33in sort of how
00:49:34this stuff is perceived
00:49:35how the New York Times
00:49:37is perceived
00:49:37the legitimacy of
00:49:38the mainstream media
00:49:40the legitimacy of
00:49:41and from that
00:49:42that I think
00:49:43has sprung voices
00:49:45that are more
00:49:47uncompromising
00:49:47that are saying
00:49:48this is our point of view
00:49:49and we're telling our story
00:49:51and that's you know
00:49:51if you look at the difference
00:49:52between my film
00:49:53which in some ways
00:49:55took a more traditional approach
00:49:56to say we're going
00:49:57into this environment
00:49:58that's incredibly divisive
00:49:59you have police on one side
00:50:00the community on the other side
00:50:01they don't like
00:50:02or trust each other
00:50:03or understand each other
00:50:04we're going to try to go
00:50:05into that world
00:50:05versus a who streets
00:50:07which is saying
00:50:08this is our experience
00:50:10this is how
00:50:11we are telling that
00:50:12these stories are happening
00:50:14in an environment
00:50:15where we
00:50:15the divisiveness
00:50:16and sort of
00:50:17the lack of dialogue
00:50:19I feel
00:50:20at least from my experience
00:50:21is sharper
00:50:22than it's ever
00:50:23than it's ever been
00:50:24I think one of the reasons
00:50:25Jane when she watches
00:50:26our film today
00:50:28thinks she's watching it
00:50:29for the first time
00:50:30I said this to her
00:50:31I go
00:50:31Jane you understand
00:50:32that it didn't look like that
00:50:33the colors didn't look like that
00:50:34and it didn't sound like this
00:50:35when you experience
00:50:37Orson Welles
00:50:38heavily narrated 1965 documentary
00:50:40and I'm almost entirely convinced
00:50:44that through the advent of technology
00:50:46of color grading
00:50:48and on all of what we can do in sound
00:50:50we can now 55 years later
00:50:52create an experience
00:50:54that allows an 84 year old woman
00:50:55to feel that she's experiencing this
00:50:58for the first time
00:50:58and I don't think that was possible in 1965
00:51:00I think that's one of the most remarkable things
00:51:02about the film
00:51:03your film is the use of sound
00:51:05I mean you really truly feel like you're there
00:51:09and it's not done in a sort of
00:51:12it's remarkable
00:51:12how did you
00:51:14did you know that
00:51:15that was going to be
00:51:15such a big part of the film
00:51:16from the beginning?
00:51:17we built a sound mixing stage
00:51:20in my office
00:51:20two and a half years ago
00:51:22we started sound editing
00:51:23before we started picture cutting
00:51:24really?
00:51:24and what we did was
00:51:25because we
00:51:26you know
00:51:27they don't record sounds
00:51:28when they do nature films
00:51:29so we
00:51:29but in Gombe
00:51:31they've been doing
00:51:32in Gombe
00:51:33they've been
00:51:34doing
00:51:34there's been people doing doctorals
00:51:36on chimp focalization
00:51:37so we acquired 55 years
00:51:39of audio recordings
00:51:41and field recordings
00:51:42and then
00:51:42spent two and a half years
00:51:45constructing the soundscape
00:51:46in 7.1
00:51:47for the film
00:51:48which is another thing
00:51:50that's like so annoying to me
00:51:51that nobody watches
00:51:53I mean I'm sure
00:51:53everybody who watches
00:51:54everybody's film here
00:51:55on laptops or whatever
00:51:56and it's just so
00:51:58I'm so glad to do it
00:51:59it's so frustrating
00:52:00that we're like here
00:52:01as filmmakers
00:52:02I know
00:52:03and that there's even an option
00:52:06for screeners
00:52:07because it wasn't even a thing
00:52:08back in the day
00:52:09and it's like
00:52:09I really
00:52:10I just
00:52:11I feel like
00:52:12it's such a cheat
00:52:14when people are like
00:52:15I'm going to watch a screener
00:52:16I'm going to watch it on your phone
00:52:16and of course
00:52:17we all know now
00:52:19that okay
00:52:19it's going to end up
00:52:20on someone's phone
00:52:21so we have to bear that in mind
00:52:22as we're like
00:52:24contemplating aesthetic decisions now
00:52:26the beats by Dre though
00:52:27are pretty good
00:52:28they're awesome
00:52:29I'm in there
00:52:43unfortunately we're coming to the end of our time
00:52:45but I'd like to just go around the table quickly
00:52:50what's the piece of
00:52:51one piece of advice you would give to a young documentarian
00:52:54or an older documentarian
00:52:55starting out to make their first film
00:52:57Yancy would you kick it off?
00:52:59Gosh
00:53:01the one piece of advice
00:53:03that I would give
00:53:05regardless of your age
00:53:07is to summon your courage
00:53:09you know
00:53:10I think that more than anything else
00:53:12it's courage
00:53:16I feel like I say this all the time
00:53:17but it still holds true for me
00:53:21is sort of a cliched documentary maxim
00:53:25but it's
00:53:25if you end up with the story you started with
00:53:27then you weren't listening along the way
00:53:29and I think that's good advice for life
00:53:32and I think it's good advice for filmmaking
00:53:33let the story evolve
00:53:34you know
00:53:36if you have a notion of what you think your story is
00:53:39throw it out the window
00:53:40and really be open
00:53:42open to the story changing
00:53:43and both with my last film Cartel Land
00:53:46and with City of Ghosts
00:53:49I wouldn't have these films
00:53:50if I didn't believe in that
00:53:51you know
00:53:51they changed massively
00:53:53from when I started
00:53:54to when I ended
00:53:55you know
00:53:55City of Ghosts began as this story
00:53:57of this sort of information war
00:53:58but it became a story of
00:54:00you know
00:54:00rising nationalism in Europe
00:54:02it became a story
00:54:02an immigrant story
00:54:03as I talked about
00:54:04it became a story of trauma
00:54:05and for me
00:54:06that's so important
00:54:08is you know
00:54:09being open to all that
00:54:10Peter?
00:54:12I think really finding ways
00:54:14to get perspective
00:54:16whether that means
00:54:17on the one hand
00:54:18recognizing that
00:54:19the work that you do
00:54:21is so demanding
00:54:22that you need to
00:54:23take care of yourself
00:54:25and remember
00:54:25and get perspective
00:54:26you know
00:54:27whether it's
00:54:28your relationships
00:54:28your friends
00:54:29your family
00:54:29taking care of yourself
00:54:30fundamentally
00:54:31but also really
00:54:32getting perspective
00:54:33from listening
00:54:34and really sort of
00:54:35absorbing as much
00:54:36as you can
00:54:37what my mentor
00:54:38and executive producer
00:54:40on the force
00:54:41John Else
00:54:42who's done a lot of
00:54:43you know
00:54:44writing for documentary
00:54:45I remember
00:54:46he would always tell me
00:54:47that he would read
00:54:48like just do nothing
00:54:49but reading in the style
00:54:50in which he had to
00:54:51write the narration
00:54:52so he might read the Bible
00:54:53you know for instance
00:54:54or he might read something
00:54:56that absorbing
00:54:57and listening
00:54:57and truly
00:54:58will give you the
00:54:59perspective necessary
00:55:00particularly in this day
00:55:01and age
00:55:02to break free
00:55:03of your comfort zone
00:55:06and getting into
00:55:07being able
00:55:07to sort of confront
00:55:08and tell the story
00:55:09of somebody
00:55:10and try to understand
00:55:11maybe somebody
00:55:11that you don't
00:55:13like
00:55:13or understand
00:55:14I think that's
00:55:15incredibly important
00:55:16today
00:55:16Evgeny what would you tell
00:55:17a young filmmaker?
00:55:19or old
00:55:19it could be an old filmmaker
00:55:22what's old?
00:55:23you know what
00:55:25for me
00:55:26documentary filmmaker
00:55:27is to take the camera
00:55:28and just to jump
00:55:29into the jungle
00:55:30jump into the Middle East
00:55:32jump into the
00:55:32Maidan Square
00:55:34and you know what
00:55:35to start to document
00:55:37this thing
00:55:38and then
00:55:38to find
00:55:40the points
00:55:41that I personally
00:55:42can connect
00:55:42I personally can be
00:55:44related
00:55:45and
00:55:45to be able
00:55:47to tell the story
00:55:48where you have
00:55:48beginning, middle and end
00:55:50and every person
00:55:51doesn't matter
00:55:52if he knows the subject
00:55:53or not
00:55:54with all my two stories
00:55:55Winter on Fire
00:55:56and Christ from Syria
00:55:57I try to educate people
00:55:59I try to explain them
00:56:00that
00:56:02the relevance
00:56:03of what I've witnessed
00:56:04in Ukraine
00:56:05or in Syria
00:56:06or in the Middle East
00:56:07can be
00:56:08easy
00:56:09connected
00:56:09or easy translated
00:56:11to
00:56:12European Union
00:56:13to Latin America
00:56:14or to United States
00:56:16as right now
00:56:16and
00:56:17it's important for me
00:56:18to educate people
00:56:19because at the end of the day
00:56:20because of the media situations
00:56:22we are living in bubbles
00:56:23and we as documentary filmmakers
00:56:25we have this chance
00:56:26and responsibility
00:56:27and ability to educate people
00:56:29that's why for example
00:56:30I will suggest to
00:56:31every young filmmaker
00:56:32or old filmmaker
00:56:33go
00:56:33do
00:56:34take a camera
00:56:36learn these stories
00:56:37learn about these people
00:56:38and educate
00:56:39something that
00:56:39media sometimes not doing
00:56:41because Winter on Fire
00:56:42or Christ from Syria
00:56:43they are both
00:56:44comprehensive stories
00:56:45versus small segments
00:56:46of the news
00:56:46so we have this chance
00:56:48and ability
00:56:49to tell these stories
00:56:50and educate people
00:56:51and bring them
00:56:51from dark side
00:56:53like you are educating them
00:56:54about ISIS
00:56:55that people much
00:56:56don't know
00:56:57so you know what
00:56:58we are able to educate them
00:56:59who is this refugee people
00:57:00what they are looking
00:57:01that they are
00:57:02at the end of the day
00:57:03they are not terrorists
00:57:03they are seeking shelter
00:57:04so we have this ability
00:57:06to bring people
00:57:06from darkness
00:57:07and I think
00:57:08that's what I will endorse
00:57:10Brent?
00:57:11I'll take it
00:57:12turn it to an aesthetic place
00:57:14I think that
00:57:16people forget that film
00:57:17is 50% sound
00:57:18and 50% image
00:57:19and as directors
00:57:23and artists
00:57:23I look at every shot
00:57:25as a world
00:57:26of opportunities
00:57:27there is a myriad
00:57:28of things
00:57:29that we can do
00:57:30to communicate
00:57:31via the mise en scene
00:57:32the image
00:57:34all aspects of film
00:57:35and I think that
00:57:36often times a documentary
00:57:37because the word document
00:57:39is germane to documentary
00:57:41people think that
00:57:42you can just document
00:57:44cover the action
00:57:46and I think it's
00:57:48our responsibilities
00:57:49as directors
00:57:49to bring as much
00:57:50as we can
00:57:51to make that
00:57:52as complete an experience
00:57:53as possible
00:57:56so if you are filming
00:57:57an interview
00:57:58think about
00:57:59the position of the camera
00:58:01in relation to the subject
00:58:02think about the eye line
00:58:03think about the lighting
00:58:04think about
00:58:04if you can anticipate
00:58:05what they are going to say
00:58:06then where is the best place
00:58:07to put the camera
00:58:08I think that our brethren
00:58:10in fiction
00:58:10have sort of
00:58:12are in general
00:58:14a little bit more advanced
00:58:16than us
00:58:17in this department
00:58:18and I think it's something
00:58:19that can really enhance
00:58:21all of our films
00:58:23so
00:58:24and it was something that
00:58:25you know
00:58:25what you were saying
00:58:26about Matt's film
00:58:27about you can watch
00:58:27with the sound off
00:58:28or your film
00:58:30like I could have watched
00:58:31your film entirely
00:58:32with the sound off
00:58:33I know you would be like
00:58:34what the heck
00:58:35but I knew what your mother
00:58:37was saying
00:58:38and I knew it was a testimonial
00:58:39because of the way
00:58:40you framed it
00:58:41and I was so happy
00:58:44when I turned your film on
00:58:46and I saw
00:58:46ah
00:58:47there's someone
00:58:48who's sculpting this
00:58:49and who's
00:58:51I'm not just hearing
00:58:52but I'm seeing
00:58:53and all my senses
00:58:54are alive
00:58:55and so
00:58:57I got into this field
00:58:59for one reason
00:58:59because I wanted to make
00:59:01non-fiction films
00:59:02that had the
00:59:05emotional strength
00:59:06of fiction
00:59:07because I grew up
00:59:08in this
00:59:08watching movies
00:59:09and so
00:59:10that's what
00:59:12fascinates me
00:59:13about this field
00:59:13and so
00:59:14to a young
00:59:14or older
00:59:17to anyone
00:59:18really
00:59:19just
00:59:20think
00:59:21what can I do
00:59:22to maximize
00:59:23this moment
00:59:24my first piece of advice
00:59:26and this is my first feature film
00:59:28so I say it very humbly
00:59:30is
00:59:30just start shooting
00:59:32just go
00:59:33it was
00:59:33that was the piece of advice
00:59:34given to me
00:59:35I felt a little frozen
00:59:37like
00:59:37like
00:59:37this is so big
00:59:39and there's so many people
00:59:40and I have to film in a school
00:59:41and I have to get permission
00:59:42from the Baltimore City School System
00:59:44and I have to raise all this money
00:59:46and
00:59:46just start shooting
00:59:47don't worry about it
00:59:48just go
00:59:49and
00:59:51that's the first piece
00:59:52and the second piece is
00:59:53you know I
00:59:54made step because I wanted
00:59:55to give people hope
00:59:57I wanted
00:59:58I feel like in this
00:59:59day and age
01:00:00we need as much hope
01:00:01as we can get
01:00:02and hold on to
01:00:03and I was told no
01:00:05a lot
01:00:06on this movie
01:00:07by a lot of
01:00:08people that
01:00:09I have great respect for
01:00:11to this day
01:00:11and admire
01:00:12and I didn't take no
01:00:13for an answer
01:00:14and it's a lesson
01:00:15not just
01:00:16for me
01:00:17but it was a lesson for all
01:00:18the girls in my movie
01:00:19great
01:00:20right
01:00:20so I would actually agree with you
01:00:22that the artistry
01:00:22of the
01:00:23of filmmaking
01:00:25doc filmmaking
01:00:26is often kind of
01:00:27just not talked about enough
01:00:28wasn't we spending her
01:00:29an hour here
01:00:29I was waiting for it to come out
01:00:30and it's
01:00:31Greg
01:00:31it's really
01:00:33it's really
01:00:34we are making movies
01:00:35and that's what we're doing
01:00:37and
01:00:38you know
01:00:39just briefly
01:00:40on our film
01:00:41we sort of
01:00:41the final year we did
01:00:42like you know
01:00:43we filmed it all with small cameras
01:00:44and kind of just
01:00:45no time to white balance
01:00:47no lights
01:00:47at all
01:00:48so it was like
01:00:48the first cuts were like
01:00:50really ugly
01:00:51safe to say
01:00:52and colors
01:00:53but you know
01:00:54the color correcting now
01:00:55is incredible
01:00:56so we showed it on like
01:00:57you know
01:00:58Odie and Leicester Square
01:01:00in London
01:01:00massive screen
01:01:01like it all held up
01:01:02which is
01:01:03people saying the DPs are amazing
01:01:04it's like well
01:01:05yes they were great
01:01:06they were in those
01:01:07tiny rooms
01:01:08with the small cameras
01:01:09but really it's like
01:01:10the guy who did the color
01:01:11was amazing
01:01:12but I think in terms of like
01:01:13starting out
01:01:14I think it's
01:01:16what I would say is
01:01:17is be honest
01:01:19and be authentic
01:01:20in front of yourself
01:01:21and your characters
01:01:22be clear about what your intentions are
01:01:25with the film
01:01:25and then for me
01:01:27what I always ask myself is
01:01:29why this film
01:01:30why now
01:01:31you know
01:01:31am I speaking to this moment
01:01:33and I think
01:01:34given that the moment
01:01:34that we all find ourselves in
01:01:36that question
01:01:37for me at least
01:01:37is more relevant than ever
01:01:40well thank you all
01:01:41for being with us here today
01:01:42we could easily go for another hour
01:01:44but your films are fascinating
01:01:47they certainly touch on
01:01:48all kinds of urgent issues
01:01:51so I hope people take the time
01:01:53to sit back and watch all of them
01:01:56thanks very much
01:01:57thank you
01:01:58thank you
01:02:23for having us
01:02:24to leave
01:02:24you
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