THR's Full Drama Showrunner Roundtable with Lena Waithe, Peter Morgan and More [Full Movie]

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Lena Waithe ('The Chi'), Peter Morgan ('The Crown'), Dan Futterman ('The Looming Tower'), Courtney Kemp ('Power'), Bruce Miller ('The Handmaid's Tale') and David Shore ('The Good Doctor') star on the Drama Showrunner Roundtable.

Transcript

00:00:08Welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter.

00:00:10I'm joined today by Dan Futterman, Courtney Kemp, David Shore, Peter Morgan, Lena Waithe, Bruce Muller.

00:00:17Thank you guys all for being here. We'll dive right into this.

00:00:20What was your most amusing or perhaps most horrifying pitch story?

00:00:24I had a pitch, I mean, I'm sure there are a lot more horrifying and amusing ones that I have,

00:00:28but the one that comes to mind is when I had a pitch that we were going to do a

00:00:34female genital mutilation story on Handmaids,

00:00:38which was fine for them, but for me...

00:00:39We were going to do the same thing.

00:00:41Exactly, yes.

00:00:42Are you just sweating? What goes into that?

00:00:45Well, you don't even know how to word anything.

00:00:47You know, it's like you feel like you're...

00:00:49First of all, I was 100% sure they were going to say no.

00:00:52Mm-hmm.

00:00:53You know, but also just kind of making them see it without kind of dancing around it as much as,

00:00:59you know, my upbringing would allow in order to say this.

00:01:03And then you realize you're doing it to Rory Gilmore.

00:01:05Mm-hmm.

00:01:05You know, it's even big double down on horrible.

00:01:09But it was fine for them. They loved it.

00:01:11For me, I still haven't recovered. I'm turning bright red just thinking about it.

00:01:14Yeah.

00:01:15I love it. I love it. What about the rest of you guys?

00:01:18I don't... I think, you know, I was very, very fortunate because the first show I ever pitched was Power.

00:01:22Oh, nice.

00:01:22So, I was like...

00:01:24It was overachieving.

00:01:25Yeah, well, but the thing is, is like you walk into the room with like 50 Cent and at that

00:01:28time like Chris Lighty and it was like...

00:01:30I had like a hundred dudes and me. There were no other women.

00:01:33So, it was like I was walking in and then, you know, everyone would sit down and then the people

00:01:38on the other side would go,

00:01:39Okay, so who am I listening to? And I'd be like, it's the girl, everybody. You know what I mean?

00:01:44And that was like... So, it really was, I wouldn't say it's like a funny story, but I guess it's

00:01:48like how much has the time changed even in the last five years?

00:01:52That doesn't happen as much anymore.

00:01:53But I would definitely say that was my early experience was like walking in with like huge dudes and being

00:01:59like,

00:01:59Yeah, so I'm the chick from Connecticut who's going to pitch you the drug dealing show.

00:02:03Hi!

00:02:03You know.

00:02:04Here I am.

00:02:04Here I am. Yeah, exactly.

00:02:06Yeah, I mean, I have a quick one where I think I went into, and it wasn't my show.

00:02:09I'm an EP on this thing where we went in and one of the execs said,

00:02:12Well, I'm a huge fan of The Chi, so whatever you pitch me, we're going to probably do it.

00:02:16So, I was like, okay, great. This is really awesome.

00:02:18Did you change what you were pitching?

00:02:20No.

00:02:21I just kind of went about it, but it was definitely the difference between when you're going in and no

00:02:26one knows who you are and you're just trying to pitch a thing and me really experiencing what it was

00:02:30like to be sort of a little bit known and having a show out in the world and execs being

00:02:35fans of it.

00:02:36And so then you get to kind of be a little bit more relaxed and a little more confident about

00:02:39whatever it is you're selling.

00:02:40Sure.

00:02:40So, even though I was already confident about this show and this idea, but she literally just said it at

00:02:45the top of the thing.

00:02:46She was like giddy.

00:02:46Do you just breathe a sigh of relief at that point?

00:02:48Um, you know, I try to walk in confident anyway because if they, it's, they're like, execs are like dogs.

00:02:53They can smell fear.

00:02:54You know what I'm saying?

00:02:54And so I'm just like, I'm going to walk in here. Like I got the best show since sliced bread,

00:02:59you know what I mean? And, but her saying that kind of made me go, okay, well, even if we

00:03:03don't sell this to you guys, this is a good day.

00:03:06But there's also the fact that you're shooting with live ammo. So you better be sure.

00:03:10Oh, that's real.

00:03:11Yeah.

00:03:11There's no one who's going to go.

00:03:12No way.

00:03:13You know, that's gone.

00:03:15Right.

00:03:15It's more pressure.

00:03:16You can't come in there with some like, you know, shitty, shitty pitch.

00:03:19Yeah.

00:03:19Because they'll say, great, go do it.

00:03:20And then you've got to go.

00:03:21Yeah.

00:03:22Make a bad thing.

00:03:23And then all of a sudden it's like, nobody gives a shit anymore.

00:03:26I went into pitch once and like two minutes into the pitch, the person I was pitching to had to

00:03:31take a phone call during which he found out that all three shows he had in development were not going

00:03:37forward.

00:03:38Ooh.

00:03:39And he just didn't listen to anything I said after that.

00:03:42Oof.

00:03:43That's tough.

00:03:44Brutal.

00:03:44I had a round of, I mean, we don't, there isn't such a culture of pitching in the UK.

00:03:50We, you know, I pitched The Crown, but really only to one or two people.

00:03:57And, but I, thinking back now that we're all talking, I did, I originally wanted to write Frost Nixon for

00:04:06the screen.

00:04:07And I had, I think, a dozen unsuccessful pitches.

00:04:13Everybody thought it was a catastrophe.

00:04:15Why?

00:04:15Well, because it's as dull as I, I mean, there are two people and they talk to one.

00:04:19I love that movie.

00:04:20That movie is fire though.

00:04:22It's so good.

00:04:23Yeah.

00:04:23I was recently watching it again.

00:04:24You've just described every movie I like.

00:04:26These two people and they just talk to each other.

00:04:29Very political.

00:04:30And I remember jumping up and down trying to animate it by saying it's sort of, it's.

00:04:35No, it's not a movie about a TV show.

00:04:36Yeah.

00:04:37Right.

00:04:37Saying it's Rocky with words.

00:04:40Or something.

00:04:41That's good.

00:04:42That's good.

00:04:42I thought that will work.

00:04:44It didn't work.

00:04:45Every single person was, so I had to write it as a play first.

00:04:50And so I went and wrote it for the theater thinking, well, it clearly has no life in film.

00:04:54And then, having written it as a play, every single company came back and tried to get it back as

00:05:01a film.

00:05:02So it was almost like they needed persuade, they needed to see it.

00:05:04Group of companies.

00:05:05Well, they actually needed to see it.

00:05:07Yeah.

00:05:09Well, they needed something else to blame when it was a play.

00:05:13Yeah.

00:05:14The play didn't quite work.

00:05:15No.

00:05:16The movie's great.

00:05:17There's that.

00:05:18All right, so if we were to scan your IMDB profiles, what would be the most surprising thing on that

00:05:24page?

00:05:25And what did you learn from it?

00:05:26Oh, he's gotta have the best.

00:05:28I know.

00:05:28Because your career's been so long.

00:05:30Yeah.

00:05:30There's gotta be some movie that you were in a long time ago that is, like, just horrifying.

00:05:35Well, no, I was, I played Barry in the, it was a quartet of Will and Grace.

00:05:44Oh, yes.

00:05:45Shows that the, the quartet was, um, called Fagmalion.

00:05:49Uh-huh.

00:05:50And, uh, so I was sort of the gay man in training.

00:05:53Yes.

00:05:54To learn how to properly be gay.

00:05:56Uh-huh.

00:05:56So great.

00:05:58Obsessed.

00:05:58Yeah.

00:05:59Um, and when I met my now wife, Ani Epstein, who's the, the actually great writer in our family, she,

00:06:05um, taught me how to write.

00:06:06She, uh, she spent a long, she actually still does it, but she spent a good portion of the beginning

00:06:12of our marriage saying, please just tell me now.

00:06:16Just tell me now, because I don't want to find out 25 years into our marriage.

00:06:21That's amazing.

00:06:23That's amazing.

00:06:24That's amazing.

00:06:24Aw, what you always dream of hearing.

00:06:25Mm-hmm.

00:06:27Wow.

00:06:28I think for me maybe that I wrote on Bones for a season.

00:06:32Um, and what I learned is that I'm not good at writing that kind of television.

00:06:37Mm-hmm.

00:06:37Um, I also wrote on a Nickelodeon show called How to Rock, which Master P's Daughter was the lead of,

00:06:42which her name is Symphonique Miller.

00:06:44Um, also then I wasn't good at doing that.

00:06:46Like, so, and those are the two shows that I've written on before The Chi became a thing.

00:06:51And then, so the third show I wrote on was my own.

00:06:53Um, all because I kind of learned, oh, I'm not good at writing kids' TV.

00:06:57And I'm not good at writing sort of like the procedural thing.

00:07:01Um, I just realized, oh, I like writing very specific characters that happen to be often people of color who

00:07:08are just living their lives.

00:07:09And those shows are very hard to come by.

00:07:12And so I created one, but I think that was, those two credits are so hilarious to me.

00:07:18Because they're just like, you couldn't be more random than that.

00:07:21But I learned so much about myself in both of those shows.

00:07:23Can I pick up on that?

00:07:24Yes, please.

00:07:25I mean, I don't think, this isn't funny, but like my first job was the Bernie Mac show.

00:07:29And I thought like, oh, this is awesome.

00:07:30You know, I was, this is my first job as a staff writer was on like this great show.

00:07:34Um, and I got fired because I'm not funny.

00:07:37Mm.

00:07:37And like, I didn't, like, you gotta come up with a joke.

00:07:40You gotta come up with a button.

00:07:40You gotta get out of the scene.

00:07:41You gotta do, you know, you have, there's a structure to comedy.

00:07:44And I was incapable of that.

00:07:46I mean, even as like a new person, I came in, I had no idea.

00:07:50It's the best thing that ever happened to me.

00:07:51Right.

00:07:51Getting fired.

00:07:52How did you get hired on it?

00:07:53Um, I actually wrote a spec, Bernie Mac, and they hired me off the spec.

00:07:58That's great.

00:07:59Um, I had come in and pitched them a bunch of ideas.

00:08:01And because I was a black upper middle class kid, I had a bunch of stories about that experience.

00:08:07Mm-hmm.

00:08:07So it was perfect for a staff writer.

00:08:09You know, I can see the logic now.

00:08:10You would hire that person who just is like, they're just walking material, right, for a comedy.

00:08:15Um, and I was walking material, but I couldn't really write a comedy.

00:08:19Mm-hmm.

00:08:20I couldn't really do that.

00:08:21And, um, so it was just, it was the best thing that ever happened.

00:08:24I got fired and I, and my, my agent said, well, we have these, these comedies, but this is the

00:08:29moment where you can decide what you really want to do.

00:08:31And I just, I wrote a CSI spec and just went the other direction.

00:08:34Wow.

00:08:34And that's the thing, I think knowing your weaknesses is such a strength.

00:08:36Oh, yeah.

00:08:36Because I feel like sometimes writers, the writers that I meet up and come, I say, what do you want

00:08:40to write?

00:08:40Everything.

00:08:41And I always say, that is the most, you're going to be stagnant for a while.

00:08:45It's like, what are you great at?

00:08:46Yeah.

00:08:47Like, what are you really good at?

00:08:48Like, what do you love writing?

00:08:49And it doesn't have to be a genre.

00:08:51No.

00:08:51It can be anything.

00:08:52Because as you were saying, you know, it's character based.

00:08:53Yeah.

00:08:54Yeah.

00:08:55And yours was kind of room based or, you know, structure based.

00:08:58Absolutely.

00:08:58Well, I just, I think, you know, I do believe that young writers need a trade, so I became a

00:09:03legal writer.

00:09:04I was the person, like, every year when there were new law shows, I was just going in and, you

00:09:08know, trying to get that, because that's what I could do.

00:09:10So, even now, when I created my own show, there's a strong legal component, because I'm like, I know I

00:09:14can do that.

00:09:15You know what I mean?

00:09:16Like, even you want to have that, the relaxation of knowing there's something you can attack in every script that's

00:09:20going to come out right.

00:09:21Sure.

00:09:21So then with the stuff that you're weaker at, that's what your room is for, you know, to, like, pop

00:09:25you up.

00:09:25Absolutely.

00:09:26So you're saying play to your specialized strengths.

00:09:29Go narrow.

00:09:31For me, it was.

00:09:32I mean, everything.

00:09:32Yeah, but you guys were saying that, too.

00:09:34Yeah, me too.

00:09:35It's develop your specialized strength, as well.

00:09:37That, you know, don't fight it.

00:09:39You know, mine was always female characters.

00:09:42Hmm.

00:09:43Like, I think you should, like, maybe think about focusing on royalty.

00:09:48Exactly.

00:09:48It is, it is, it is the thing about, it's the thing about, you know, I have this, this fantasy

00:09:57when you write that you want to be able to do anything and everything.

00:10:00And it's a bit like a doctor, and I don't want to tell you what it's like, but it's a

00:10:05bit, it's a bit like imagining you're going to go into all areas of medical practice, you know, end of

00:10:09life care or obstetrics or whatever it is, and then you do one good operation on an elbow.

00:10:15And suddenly, you're the elbow dude, and I just get elbows, and I don't know how I ended up in

00:10:22this predicament.

00:10:24Wow.

00:10:24Of that.

00:10:25Being the voice of the monarchy?

00:10:25I have no, it's an apport.

00:10:28Predicament.

00:10:28Predicament, is it?

00:10:29It is a predicament.

00:10:30It is a predicament.

00:10:32Well, I'm not a doctor, actually.

00:10:34So, but I, the doc, I have become the doctor guy.

00:10:37But you like elbows.

00:10:37So, but I did an elbow surgery.

00:10:41You're a dangerous steak doctor.

00:10:42Yeah.

00:10:43I was on ER, it's the same thing, yeah.

00:10:44I know just enough to, like, really get someone in trouble.

00:10:47Be dangerous.

00:10:48Yeah.

00:10:50My IMDB page, the first item on it is boy eating crackers in the movie Meatballs.

00:10:57Wow.

00:10:58Wait, really?

00:10:59Really.

00:11:00One of my writers on House added that, but it is accurate.

00:11:03Wow.

00:11:04Wow.

00:11:04I was attending that summer camp.

00:11:06Wow.

00:11:07When they filmed that movie.

00:11:08And what I learned was, don't really eat the crackers.

00:11:13Oh.

00:11:13Because they're gonna do this.

00:11:14You learned it's pretend.

00:11:15Yeah, I learned to pretend.

00:11:1687 shots.

00:11:17Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:17You're imagining.

00:11:18Yes, yes.

00:11:19I have an actor on my show, Joseph Shakura, who plays Tommy.

00:11:23And we had this orange juice gag that we were doing last year.

00:11:27And he insisted on actually drinking the orange juice.

00:11:30And by the time we got to his close-up, he was like, um.

00:11:33And I was like, it's too late.

00:11:34You committed to drinking the orange juice now.

00:11:36Oh, wait, hold on.

00:11:37Hold on.

00:11:38I'm not helping you, bro.

00:11:39Yeah.

00:11:39Listen, I said not to drink it, but, like, you wanted to, so.

00:11:42Oh.

00:11:4375 takes later, it doesn't taste so good?

00:11:45Yeah, no.

00:11:45The lining of his stomach is really incredible.

00:11:46He's, like, such a pro that he just nailed it, and the gag worked, and it was awesome.

00:11:51But it just, I was like, oof, that looks bad.

00:11:53Yeah.

00:11:54All right.

00:11:54See, I learned that.

00:11:56Very early.

00:11:57Exactly.

00:11:58Only you'd been on set that day.

00:11:59You could have told him.

00:12:00Yes.

00:12:00Listen, in my youth.

00:12:02I like Don't Eat the Crackers for your bio.

00:12:04I know.

00:12:05For my epitaph.

00:12:06Yeah, yeah.

00:12:07You gave the same advice with the genital mutilation.

00:12:10Yes, I did.

00:12:10Exactly.

00:12:11Don't eat the crackers.

00:12:11Even if they give you crackers, don't eat them.

00:12:15I'm curious for you guys on these shows.

00:12:17What was the sort of biggest debate conversation you had in the writers' room about getting something

00:12:23to screen?

00:12:24Hmm.

00:12:26A big debate we had was, like, do black people call the cops?

00:12:29Mm-hmm.

00:12:30Um, because in the show, I mean, like, I mean, and that's a very tricky-

00:12:34Do they trust you to answer that question?

00:12:36I mean, well, I will say it kind of came up in the room a little bit, which is predominantly

00:12:41African American.

00:12:43And maybe sometimes things can be generational.

00:12:45Uh, but there is an element, and look, I don't have a black exec on the studio or network

00:12:49side.

00:12:50Um, and so there's a level of trust that they kind of, I think, have to have for me.

00:12:54But there's an element of, there's a crime committed, you know, in the pilot.

00:12:58Like, a character's younger brother is shot and killed by someone.

00:13:01And people, the question then becomes, does he, obviously, in the hood, it's like you

00:13:06retaliate.

00:13:07You go find the person that killed your person and you kill them.

00:13:09Uh, but then the question became, does he call the cops?

00:13:12So, he is dating someone, as I like to say, from the right side of the tracks, who says,

00:13:17maybe you should do that.

00:13:18But I think, for him, he, and we gave him, ultimately, we gave him the line of saying,

00:13:22I'm not about to call the cops.

00:13:24Like, cops are not about to do nothing.

00:13:25I'll figure this out.

00:13:26Um, and also, too, there's a very complicated relationship that African American people have

00:13:30with police, um, for obvious reasons.

00:13:32Yeah, you fucked up.

00:13:35I really hope it wants you for the rest of your fucking life.

00:13:41You see that kid over there?

00:13:46You better not touch him.

00:13:50You hear me?

00:13:55I'm more fuck-ups.

00:13:59So you took the debate from the writer's room and just put it in the story.

00:14:03Yeah, we could put it in his girlfriend's mouth.

00:14:05We could have that, because there wasn't a writer in our room who basically said,

00:14:10well, if I'm in trouble, I'll call the cops.

00:14:12You know?

00:14:13But I think, for a lot of us, we're like, nah.

00:14:15Like, we wouldn't do that.

00:14:16We wouldn't figure it out on our own.

00:14:17It's one of the most interesting things about diversity is that to have, it's very different

00:14:23for me to be, when I started my career, there was often one woman in the room.

00:14:27My room's all, basically all women and me.

00:14:29And the thing that you get is the disagreement.

00:14:33Oh, yeah.

00:14:33Because if you have one black person in the room, that black person is your, you know,

00:14:37speaks for all black people in the universe.

00:14:39Right, right.

00:14:39Blackopedia.

00:14:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:41Blackopedia and blackionarian.

00:14:42I've been both of those on many shows.

00:14:44And we have girlopedia.

00:14:46Yeah, yeah.

00:14:47And it's, yeah, no, that's exactly right.

00:14:49But, you know, we have discussions like, you know, we had a very long discussion about

00:14:53what it actually feels like to get your period and, you know, how you, can you tell

00:14:56or not when you start to bleed without, and all that kind of very, like, and the entire

00:15:01group, all they did was, like, disagree with each other.

00:15:03It was zero help for me.

00:15:05Oh, wow.

00:15:05For them, they learned a lot about each other.

00:15:07Because everybody has a very different experience.

00:15:07Yeah.

00:15:07And it's so funny that you think, okay, there's a universal answer to this.

00:15:10I just want an answer.

00:15:11I just need a line here.

00:15:12Right.

00:15:13They're like, well, you know.

00:15:15So, I would say 80% of the things I thought I would get, like, oh, this is the queen.

00:15:20I don't know it, but someone else knows it.

00:15:21Right.

00:15:21What's it like to walk through the world in a skin of a different color?

00:15:24Right.

00:15:25It doesn't help if you just have one person.

00:15:27Oh, absolutely.

00:15:27Yeah.

00:15:28It's one person's opinion.

00:15:29So, real diversity actually is the way to actually use those experiences.

00:15:34Because I think when you have a singular voice in the room, there's no one to challenge

00:15:38it.

00:15:39Right.

00:15:39It's better when it is a debate.

00:15:40Absolutely.

00:15:40We had a very similar thing on our show.

00:15:42There's a lot about the Koran.

00:15:44Mm-hmm.

00:15:45And there's a lot of Arabic dialogue.

00:15:47And we were leading up to a big, there's a big interrogation in the 10th episode with

00:15:53Ali Sufan and a guy, a terrorist named Abu Jandal.

00:15:57And it's in Arabic.

00:15:59And it's, there, a lot of the way he gets him to speak is he sort of shames him about

00:16:04his knowledge of, or lack of knowledge about the Koran.

00:16:06Mm-hmm.

00:16:07And when we handed in the episode, we got a call from Hulu.

00:16:13And they said, do you, you realize that this, this is 12 pages in Arabic.

00:16:18Uh, and, and it's, it's like, it doesn't cut to anything else.

00:16:23And you said, yeah, no, we do realize that.

00:16:25That was, that was intentional.

00:16:26Because it was really hard getting someone to translate.

00:16:29How many Arabic speakers do we have in the bureau?

00:16:34Anybody?

00:16:37Eight.

00:16:38Eight.

00:16:39Eight Arabic speakers out of more than 10,000 agents.

00:16:43That's how seriously our government takes this threat.

00:16:45Sorry, boss.

00:16:46Shuttle was late.

00:16:47Kiss the ring.

00:16:48Suck me, Bobby.

00:16:49What's happening in the Manson family?

00:16:51It is weird.

00:16:51It's all women and one bearded guy, right?

00:16:54That was just me.

00:16:56Who's this?

00:16:57It's your newest colleague, Ali Safan.

00:16:59You can answer every question you have.

00:17:01All right.

00:17:03Welcome.

00:17:04In terms of the opinions, it was, I mean, there's a, you know, you ask two Jews about the Torah,

00:17:10you get three opinions.

00:17:11It was the, it's the exact same thing about the Quran.

00:17:13We had a couple of guys of, of Muslim descent.

00:17:17Um, and then we had the actors who were also playing it.

00:17:19And we had about 14 opinions about what this, the conversation, where this should lead this conversation.

00:17:25Um, so that, that was our, that was our moment of, of reaction of, should we get this on screen

00:17:32or should we not?

00:17:32Mm-hmm.

00:17:33I mean, to get it on screen.

00:17:34It's actually, I, I, this is a scene that I, I really love.

00:17:37Um, I, for us, I think in the very beginning, it was a lot of, uh, making the rules about

00:17:43how we were going to illustrate the city of New York.

00:17:46Um, so, uh, when we were casting parts that were Dominican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, looking for actors who were actually

00:17:55Dominican, Cuban, Puerto Rican.

00:17:57And it's hard when you have to split that closely because, you know, just getting an actor who you like

00:18:02in the role is difficult.

00:18:03Right.

00:18:03You have to cast such a net.

00:18:04You have, but you have to, you do have to cast a net, you're right, but in terms of New

00:18:08York, that's there, right?

00:18:10Yeah.

00:18:10So then it was the conversation about we can't shoot in Toronto because we're never going to get this diversity

00:18:15of Latinos.

00:18:16And then having dialect coaches who can give you Mexican slang, Cuban slang, Dominican slang, and then trying to explain

00:18:23to the network that that's super important.

00:18:26Oh, yeah.

00:18:26Because people at home know the difference, even if you don't.

00:18:29Right.

00:18:29Um, that was like a big thing.

00:18:31And then the other, the other thing that I think was probably our hardest, um, was really about women and

00:18:37men.

00:18:38Because I didn't have any, uh, female execs when I was developing the show.

00:18:42And so I was constantly kind of having to stretch Angela and Tasha, these two characters, and explain women don't

00:18:49act like that.

00:18:50They don't act like that.

00:18:50The note that you're giving me is not how women actually behave.

00:18:53Give me an example.

00:18:54Um, well, I had a note very early on that was, no one understood, uh, why Angela didn't just want

00:18:59to be with Greg, because he was a nice guy.

00:19:01And I was like, women don't like the nice guy.

00:19:03Mmm.

00:19:03They pick the nice guy when they're smart and they make a calculated choice, but that's not really what they

00:19:07want.

00:19:08They want the bad guy.

00:19:09Mm-hmm.

00:19:09And especially the bad guy who you lost when you were 15, who was your first love, who's real dangerous,

00:19:14and has big muscles, and happens to look like Omari Hardwick.

00:19:17What are you thinking?

00:19:17You know what I mean?

00:19:18Like, that's, that's where you're gonna go.

00:19:20I'm gonna start to cry.

00:19:21I'm sorry.

00:19:23I'm sorry.

00:19:23I'm sorry, but-

00:19:24He's like, I'm the nice guy.

00:19:26I'm the nice guy.

00:19:26Yeah, yeah.

00:19:27I like to think that.

00:19:28Yeah, I don't find you that nice.

00:19:31I don't get him, that's why I'm crying, I don't get it either.

00:19:38But that was a really fun thing, just to get through that period and say, and I have to give

00:19:44the stars folk credit, at one point they finally said, you know, none of us are women.

00:19:48We're gonna have to trust you.

00:19:50Mm-hmm.

00:19:50And I was like, that would be great if you would just trust me, in general, about all things.

00:19:54About everything.

00:19:54And I would also like some more money in my budget.

00:19:57Yes.

00:19:58Always.

00:19:58Uh-huh.

00:19:59You can not trust me, just give me the money.

00:20:01Oh, that's 100%.

00:20:01What about you guys?

00:20:02Well, what are the conversations?

00:20:04I mean, it's you with the researchers, so it's a little bit different.

00:20:07Or perhaps it's with the network or-

00:20:09Well, no, I think we, I think when you're doing a drama based on real people, real events, you have

00:20:16to constantly ask yourself where you stand in truth and accuracy.

00:20:20Mm-hmm.

00:20:20And what the responsibility of that is.

00:20:22And so, I think all our significant debates are about, you know, how comfortable am I saying a certain thing

00:20:31or having dialogue that suggests another thing when the facts, you know, whose facts, which historian,

00:20:37which point of view have those historians, so where am I getting my facts?

00:20:40And, you know, I mean, the good news about the royal family and about prime ministers is that both of

00:20:46them are, their day-to-day movements are so clearly, you know,

00:20:52everybody knows where they were and when on each particular day.

00:20:56There's no mystery about it at all.

00:20:57So, you can tell the character was here and then here and then here and then here, but I have

00:21:01to join the dots.

00:21:02And that's where the act of imagination comes in.

00:21:04And then you're sort of saying, well, hang on a minute, the minute it is, the minute it is committed

00:21:08to film, people are going to assume, if you've done your job right in all the other areas.

00:21:13Yeah.

00:21:13If what you're doing is satire and the rules are clear that it's satire, you know, it's one thing.

00:21:18But if what you're saying is this is a plausible emotional reality between plausible human beings, it then follows that

00:21:24what they do and say, people will think you have treated responsibly enough.

00:21:28But, of course, there is an act of the imagination.

00:21:30And I think that there's a covenant of trust with an audience where they think I'm watching something and I

00:21:35think people know.

00:21:37But too often I get shocked where people say, but when that happened, I go, well, no, actually, I had

00:21:42to imagine that.

00:21:43And therefore, I can't say with any degree of certainty that that is what happened.

00:21:46But I wouldn't have done it unless I think there's pretty good reason for it.

00:21:50We all closed our eyes, our ears, to what was being said about you.

00:21:56We dismissed it as fabrications, as cruel chatter in light of your decision to give up the throne.

00:22:04But when the truth finally came out, the truth, it makes a mockery of even the central tenets of Christianity.

00:22:14I'm comfortable and I sleep at night thinking that it might have happened, but who knows?

00:22:19You sleep at night?

00:22:20I don't sleep at night when I'm here, but I sometimes sleep at home.

00:22:24But that keeps me, that can keep me awake.

00:22:27Sure, but the Jackie Kennedy thing was real.

00:22:29Uh-huh.

00:22:30The Jackie Kennedy thing.

00:22:32What, you mean their disagreement?

00:22:33Well, what she said about the Queen in terms of her not being a little unimpressed by her.

00:22:36That was absolutely, so nice, I can look you in the eye and say that's for real.

00:22:41Of course I would have only believed you, I know you wouldn't.

00:22:44Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:45No, because we are pretty scripted, I mean really scripted.

00:22:47But it was, but look, I mean such a beloved first lady and there's a moment where it almost,

00:22:54they become teenage girls in a moment where she doesn't, you know, she's,

00:22:58and you can see the innocence in the Queen of wanting to be liked by someone like that.

00:23:03And the devastation of finding out that she was, she came off so plain to her.

00:23:08I thought it was so beautifully done and powerful.

00:23:11And that Jackie played her.

00:23:13Right.

00:23:13Absolutely.

00:23:14And that Jackie played, that for me, that was really, like yeah.

00:23:16Because she, that's why she was so shocked.

00:23:18Yeah.

00:23:18Because she thought like, oh I thought we had a great.

00:23:19That was the great combination of being, the fact that they want, she wanted to be young.

00:23:24They wanted to be kind of like, like friends.

00:23:25And that's what friends do to each other as they play.

00:23:28That's true.

00:23:28I mean it actually did work out the way, you know, the high school that she had missed.

00:23:31Right.

00:23:32But then also because of the way Jackie Kennedy's played, she feels horribly that, you know,

00:23:35that that came out.

00:23:36But I thought, I remember thinking like that has to be accurate because no one would want

00:23:41to play that.

00:23:41Well it was the sister, she told the sister.

00:23:43Oh yeah.

00:23:43And it was the sister that told someone else.

00:23:45And that then, and then they had what, unfortunately, you know, when you dream of writing something else

00:23:51and you're stuck in the little thing, you know, that actually, that, that buttering the scone

00:23:57in that scene between the two of them, that is as close as I get to a fight.

00:24:01Wow.

00:24:01Unfortunately.

00:24:02Someone had a knife.

00:24:03Wow.

00:24:03Somebody slightly irritated Lee.

00:24:05Doing that, that, that, that and any other.

00:24:08It would have been .

00:24:10Right.

00:24:10But there, it's like, that's the height of anger.

00:24:12Stomping on the head.

00:24:13It's not nice.

00:24:14Stomping.

00:24:26My challenge was the other side of the camera from what you were referring to.

00:24:31I, I have a lead who is a, well I have a character in the center of the show who

00:24:37has autism.

00:24:38And I have one character on the show with autism.

00:24:41Mm-hm.

00:24:42And so, does he, and that is not something we see on TV very much.

00:24:48And so, how do I make him fully dimensionalized while being true to people with this condition

00:24:55on this spectrum while at the same time, he's representing.

00:25:01Yep.

00:25:01Right.

00:25:02That condition.

00:25:03And how do I not, it's important that I don't turn him into the, the magic person with autism.

00:25:11Somewhere.

00:25:12He's got a condition, but he, he's fine.

00:25:13He just, he'll solve all the problems.

00:25:15And how do I be true to his weaknesses and his strengths?

00:25:20And, um, it's, it continues to be a challenge.

00:25:24What if it doesn't make me happy?

00:25:27What if it doesn't make me happy?

00:25:29What if it only makes you happy?

00:25:32You think, you think I'm doing this to make me happy?

00:25:35Mm-hm.

00:25:36I'm not happy, Sean.

00:25:37I'm not close to being happy.

00:25:40And you know what?

00:25:40I am done explaining.

00:25:42I am done bribing.

00:25:44And I am done talking.

00:25:45Now, let's go.

00:25:46No.

00:25:48No.

00:25:49I, I want to make my own decisions.

00:25:52Do you hear from the autistic community a ton or people?

00:25:56Yeah.

00:25:57Yeah.

00:25:57Um, we have, um, I think they're very grateful to have themselves represented on TV.

00:26:02Yeah.

00:26:02I did a show called Alphas and we had a, and it was kind of a magic autistic character.

00:26:06Mm-hm.

00:26:06But the performance was so excellent, the, the, the, because it's a super power show,

00:26:11he had super power.

00:26:12But the, his normal performance and we, that community was so interested and grateful that

00:26:18we actually engaged with them and asked them questions.

00:26:21But you do feel like are you representing the autistic spectrum or this guy?

00:26:25Yes.

00:26:25Right.

00:26:26And the more we did this guy, the better it was.

00:26:28Yes.

00:26:28Absolutely.

00:26:29Yeah.

00:26:29Not every autistic person, but this person.

00:26:31Right.

00:26:31Yeah.

00:26:32Courtney, I wanted to turn to you and I know you've, you've said that this wasn't particularly

00:26:35sort of difficult, but obviously you killed off a, a big character, um, in the most recent

00:26:41season.

00:26:42A, I'm interested why that wasn't a difficult choice, but also the conversation.

00:26:47My back is like, ouch.

00:26:49No, I'm kidding.

00:26:49It wasn't.

00:26:50Yeah.

00:26:51But also having that conversation, because that was a child.

00:26:57So then you have to go to the actor and say, this is it and what that is like.

00:27:01And then I'll open that up.

00:27:02The show is governed by the principle of surprising and inevitable.

00:27:05Mm-hm.

00:27:06So the dominoes have to fall a certain way.

00:27:09Uh, the, the character's brought twin brother had, um, committed a series of acts for which,

00:27:16in their world, you get got.

00:27:19Yeah.

00:27:19So then his sister, being a, a good, a white hat in our show, tries to save her brother

00:27:26from his fate.

00:27:27And as a result of him doing, making these choices, she is the one who gets hurt.

00:27:32That is surprising, because it's not him, but it's inevitable, because he made some terrible

00:27:36choices.

00:27:37So in terms of the storytelling, I feel like the story always leads you where it's supposed

00:27:40to go.

00:27:41Sometimes you want to buck that.

00:27:42Sometimes you don't want that.

00:27:43Sometimes you don't want that character to die.

00:27:45I mean, in the case of my show, characters die every season.

00:27:47Um, but you, sometimes you don't want that.

00:27:50I mean, I've had actors who I loved personally, and I was like, as I typed their demise.

00:27:55But, um.

00:27:56But they die so well.

00:27:57But they die so well.

00:27:58Um, but in that case, it was, you know, I felt like there was no other choice.

00:28:03I carried her.

00:28:05I carried that girl in my body.

00:28:08Ghost.

00:28:10She was blood of my blood.

00:28:13Flesh of my flesh.

00:28:15This isn't just happening to you.

00:28:24But I'm gonna be the one to end it though.

00:28:27I won't rest until the man that killed our daughter is dead.

00:28:31I always talk to them about a week before the production draft goes out.

00:28:36Because when the production draft goes out, the department heads are gonna know.

00:28:39And department heads will talk, especially, you know, they will.

00:28:41So you have to control that.

00:28:43And I also don't want anyone else to know.

00:28:45So you don't put it in an outline or anything?

00:28:47No, it's in the outline.

00:28:48It is in the outline.

00:28:49But the outline is controlled on power.

00:28:51It has to be.

00:28:52Because we get hacked.

00:28:53We get, you know, we get all that stuff.

00:28:55So, um, but I talk to the actor.

00:28:57And in this case, you have to talk to the actor and their mom.

00:28:59Mm-hmm.

00:29:01And, um...

00:29:02So what's that conversation?

00:29:05Uh, it's, okay, well, um, this person will no longer be on the show after episode

00:29:11nine.

00:29:12And, um, you know, uh, it's not personal.

00:29:16And it's not about, uh, your performance.

00:29:18Not about all these things.

00:29:19It's just about where the story takes you.

00:29:20No different than anyone else.

00:29:21This was not the first character I'd killed off the show.

00:29:23Right.

00:29:23By the way, this is, like, deep into season four of a lot of people getting got on the

00:29:27show.

00:29:28So it was more, I think, for the child actor, she was frightened and confused.

00:29:35Mm-hmm.

00:29:35Um, and then you bring the parent in to say, like, hey, it's not the end of the world.

00:29:40There will be other jobs.

00:29:41You know, that kind of thing.

00:29:42Um, but it was, that was a hard one.

00:29:45Yeah.

00:29:45Not the hardest.

00:29:46What was the hardest?

00:29:47Uh, I had one actor who told me that I was ruining the show, uh, and that if he wasn't

00:29:53on it, that a certain segment of the population would never watch it again.

00:29:57Mm-hmm.

00:29:58And I was like, okay, dude.

00:30:00You just made it easier.

00:30:01Yeah, in a way, yeah.

00:30:03It was a rough moment just because I was like, oh my god, like, have you been watching

00:30:09the same show?

00:30:09Like, this is, you know, it's gonna happen.

00:30:11But no, you know, and like the, you know, there's, uh, some people are great, some people

00:30:15aren't.

00:30:16It's hard because you're firing someone.

00:30:18Right, exactly.

00:30:18At the end of the day, you're ending their employ.

00:30:20Okay.

00:30:20And especially for a series regular, that's a big check you're telling me you're not getting.

00:30:24So that's, it is tough, but it's also part of our show.

00:30:28And I think by the end of the season, there's a joke, did, uh, do you have to go talk

00:30:33to

00:30:33Courtney?

00:30:34Oh.

00:30:34A joke among the actors.

00:30:36So.

00:30:37Wow.

00:30:38You're the hammer.

00:30:39I am.

00:30:40I'm the grim reaper sometimes.

00:30:42Yeah, you got me.

00:30:42But the thing is, everyone gets treated fairly.

00:30:44I look you in the eye, I tell you why, I tell you when it's gonna happen, how it's gonna

00:30:46happen, who's gonna do it to you, who's directing the episode, how you're gonna be taken care

00:30:50of, you know?

00:30:51We're not gonna-

00:30:51How you're gonna be taken care of?

00:30:52No, I mean, you know what I mean, I'm not gonna leave you hanging.

00:30:55Right.

00:30:55Some people have to be real troopers because their dead bodies have to, like, stay in

00:30:58one position for a couple hours.

00:31:00Oh, man.

00:31:00You know what I mean?

00:31:00But we try to, we try to do the things.

00:31:02They're wondering, they're thinking, like, did I put enough in my savings account?

00:31:05Right.

00:31:06Like, okay.

00:31:06Shouldn't have bought that Tesla.

00:31:08Oh my gosh.

00:31:09Yeah.

00:31:09What are the hardest conversations the rest of you guys have had to have with actors,

00:31:14with the folks in your shows?

00:31:16Any come to mind?

00:31:18Some actors is, you know, sometimes they can be doing too much.

00:31:22You know?

00:31:23There's a certain phrase I use to be a little extra.

00:31:25Overact.

00:31:26No, I mean, upset.

00:31:27It's like, there's an element, sometimes I think, too, with The Chi, which I'm really

00:31:31excited about, is we have a lot of fresh faces.

00:31:34And we have some familiar ones.

00:31:35But, you know, there's some, you know, we also have a lot of local Chicago actors.

00:31:39So there's some that are, like, you know, on, you know, Instagram all the time.

00:31:44Like, all like, yo, you know, I'm, you know, on The Chi.

00:31:47And I think some of the other seasoned actors sometimes wonder, like, what is going on?

00:31:50Why are they, their whole Instagram and Twitter feed is all full of their storylines

00:31:53or their character and what they think.

00:31:55But the truth is, I sometimes try to understand and say, well, this is new to them.

00:31:59They don't live in Los Angeles.

00:32:01This isn't a part of their world.

00:32:02Then other actors sometimes who, you know, will be, you know, want to come to set and shadow

00:32:06everything.

00:32:07And I'm like, yeah, but if another actor doesn't necessarily want you ongoing their performance,

00:32:12like, come to set when you're called to set.

00:32:15So there's, and also, too, sometimes there's an etiquette that some actors don't know

00:32:18because they haven't been working a ton.

00:32:20And so they'll send a bunch of emails to me and other EPs and the network execs saying,

00:32:25hey, so I got this short film, maybe you can check it out, or hey, da, da, da.

00:32:28And so I sometimes try to say, because to me it's like, I love all of them and I want

00:32:32them all to do well.

00:32:33And I try to give the advice and say, maybe don't send an email to all of us.

00:32:37Like, you can send it to me, you know, and just hit me on the solo.

00:32:40But it's just, but to me it's my way of being kind and embracing them rather than just letting

00:32:45them, you know, just get the string and just hang themselves.

00:32:48Just like, don't do it.

00:32:49Do you feel like the, you get a different level of, because your show's such a, you

00:32:55know, a big hit that when people come on, are they nervous?

00:32:59Especially local Chicago people?

00:33:01Well, you know, the interesting thing, there's a lot of production in Chicago.

00:33:03So a lot of them, they're not nervous, they're more excited.

00:33:08Because most of the shows there, there's no shade, but they're sort of like paint by

00:33:10numbers, all these Chicago shows.

00:33:12So for us, it's more of a, this is a thing that we're trying to do where we're trying to

00:33:16be a little bit more sophisticated, a little more heightened, a little bit more

00:33:19specific, a little more rooted in the city.

00:33:21And the dialogue is different also because we're a premium cable show.

00:33:24So there's an element of like, there's a little bit, we have a little bit more shine to us

00:33:28than some of the network shows.

00:33:29So they're really excited to be there and they do really try hard to do a good job

00:33:34because they also want to be brought back.

00:33:35A lot of them are very small characters and they're like, I want to be one of the regulars.

00:33:38And I said, look, if you do a really good job, you're professional, you know, we want to,

00:33:42we want to write to you.

00:33:43And we've had a couple of actors like that who we want to write to.

00:33:45And now we're back in the room for season two.

00:33:46How about the rest of you? Any particularly sort of tough, whether it's, I'm killing you off?

00:33:55Yeah, it's never, I try to be good about it and mature like you are.

00:34:01And I am mature, I'm just not good at it, I don't think.

00:34:04What does that mean?

00:34:05Well, it's just, it's difficult to fire people.

00:34:08It's difficult to fire people you like, even if you've got the reason for it.

00:34:11And some of them take it well, and some of them, no matter what you say to them,

00:34:17and no matter what the truth, they take it personally.

00:34:18Right.

00:34:19And it's just, it's not fun.

00:34:22It's not a fun part of the job, but it is part of the job and you have to have

00:34:25your attitude.

00:34:27Especially when they've done nothing wrong, right?

00:34:28When it's just a story.

00:34:29Yeah.

00:34:30Because then it's like, it rarely happens in the world that you get fired and you didn't do anything wrong.

00:34:34Right.

00:34:35So that's a weird part.

00:34:36In fact, usually it's the opposite.

00:34:38Because no one would care if the person died if they weren't giving you a good performance.

00:34:42So if you're actually.

00:34:43Right.

00:34:44Yeah.

00:34:44Right.

00:34:44Yeah.

00:34:45I did, this wasn't awkward, but I just, the most unusual situation.

00:34:50I had an actor come, because you also get actors with opportunities and you want to encourage those opportunities.

00:34:55I never want to, I mean if their opportunity was on another show, I might say,

00:35:00but you know, they, I did have an actor come to me once and say he wants off the show

00:35:04because he wants to take a job in the White House.

00:35:06Oh.

00:35:07Yeah.

00:35:07Okay.

00:35:07That's a yes.

00:35:09Did you say no way?

00:35:10Yeah.

00:35:11Well it's funny because I say it was very early, it was Cal Penn.

00:35:14And he did go work in the White House for, for I think two years.

00:35:17I said, sure, we'll work on it.

00:35:18He gave me really great notice, lots of time for us to give him a really good story to send

00:35:22him off.

00:35:24But as soon as he was done with me, I get a phone call from his agent or manager saying,

00:35:27don't worry about it, it's not going to happen, he's an actor, he'll change his mind.

00:35:30Wow.

00:35:30He's going to recognize how much what the money difference is and he's not, there's no way he's going.

00:35:35And he went.

00:35:36Wow.

00:35:37Lena, I think you've said, and I'm quoting you here,

00:35:39the hardest thing about being a black writer in this town is having to pitch your black story to white

00:35:44executives,

00:35:44which you alluded to earlier.

00:35:46And I'm curious how, whether it was this story or was it another story,

00:35:52how they would be received differently if that room was populated by a bunch of black executives.

00:35:59Well, and that's the interesting thing too, because usually it's predominantly white execs

00:36:04or there's the often, the portoken black exec they bring into the room.

00:36:09Or whoever they can find in the office is to say, come on, we've got a black person coming in

00:36:12here,

00:36:12we want to look good.

00:36:14You know, but I think, you know, and also too, and I think you have to remember,

00:36:18like that black exec can either be a friend or a foe.

00:36:21Why?

00:36:21Because they, because they can, they don't want to come off like, oh, I'm only vying for the black show.

00:36:26They don't want to be the black exec.

00:36:28And then other times too, again, if their black experience is different from yours,

00:36:32you know, if there's a person who, a black person who, you know, grew up in maybe in Connecticut

00:36:36or had a different, went to a private school and I'm in there pitching the shy,

00:36:40they're going to go, well, that wasn't my experience.

00:36:42You know, I've seen that experience of black people before.

00:36:44I don't want to, you know, you know, green light a show that's going to kind of tell that story

00:36:48again,

00:36:48even though obviously I want to be nuanced and very specific.

00:36:51But yeah, I mean, the truth is going into pitch is hard, period.

00:36:55But what I think people don't realize when you're someone who is othered,

00:36:58because it's not just for black people, but you can be, if you're a trans person,

00:37:00if you're someone who, you know, maybe has a certain disability,

00:37:04or maybe if you have autism and you want to come and tell a story about that.

00:37:07If you're sitting with people who that's not their experience, you know, yeah,

00:37:11if you have something that's phenomenal and they can just kind of relate and get it, they'll do it.

00:37:15But oftentimes there's a level of not understanding and not being able to relate.

00:37:22So they're like, and even the story could be great and unique and specific,

00:37:25but they're like, well, you don't get it, or I don't know that world.

00:37:29Because also, too, you've got to remember, the top execs, the people with green light, blue light power,

00:37:33they live in Brentwood.

00:37:34They live there.

00:37:34Their kids go to private school, you know, it's Big Little Lies.

00:37:37So it's like, if you're not pitching Big Little Lies, sometimes they're like, huh, I don't always get it.

00:37:42Or they say yes and then try to make it more relatable to them.

00:37:46Make it Big Little Lies.

00:37:47Exactly.

00:37:48So now you have, although I love Big Little Lies.

00:37:50Because I've got to be a fly on the wall of a world that I'm not a part of.

00:37:53You know, but to me, having the opportunity, I'm very blessed in that the execs at Showtime

00:37:58and obviously Fox 21 said, yeah, this may not be our experience, but there's something about this

00:38:02that sort of has a heartbeat that even we can't deny.

00:38:05But that's why I often tell people sometimes when you are othered, you better come in there with something so

00:38:09phenomenal

00:38:10and so amazing that even though it's from a world that isn't theirs, there's something about it they can connect

00:38:15to.

00:38:16There has to be the universal law where it's about a person just trying to survive or trying to live.

00:38:22And even if those people don't look like them or come from the same walk of life, they still can

00:38:26say, I get it.

00:38:28I want to watch that.

00:38:29Are those rooms changing with the success of a show like Power, with a Black Panther, with a Chi, with

00:38:34an Empire?

00:38:35I don't think it's, it's not about the rooms changing and certainly the people who are saying yes at the

00:38:39top top haven't changed.

00:38:40Not at all.

00:38:41It's more like, I feel like you can go in in two different ways.

00:38:45This is what I tell younger writers.

00:38:46You can go in and pitch the universal part first.

00:38:48Right.

00:38:49So I go in and pitch Power and I say it's about the path not taken.

00:38:53It's about my first love, you know, the one that got away.

00:38:57It's about does my past dictate my future?

00:38:59Anybody can relate to that.

00:39:01You tell that story first, the specifics don't matter.

00:39:03Right.

00:39:03That's one way of doing it.

00:39:05If you can't find the universal in your pitch, it's not the right show.

00:39:08Right.

00:39:08Because it's not gonna work.

00:39:10You know, a show that's just about you and about living in your block.

00:39:14Right.

00:39:14Is not gonna be interesting enough.

00:39:15A show that's about trying to survive is always gonna be interesting.

00:39:19But you also have to research the people in the room before you go in.

00:39:22Because if you are just looking at them as a monolithic group of upper middle class white people, well you

00:39:27screw it up too.

00:39:28Right.

00:39:28Because somebody in there is specifically from like 10 miles from where you grew up.

00:39:33Right.

00:39:33And then you can connect on that level.

00:39:36Or have greenlit 20 really cool interesting shows all over the map.

00:39:40Have really divergent tastes.

00:39:42Right.

00:39:42What appeals to them?

00:39:43What appeals to them?

00:39:44Because if you go in and you see that this person has greenlit this, that, or the other, they might

00:39:48actually vibe with one specific thing in your pitch.

00:39:51Yeah.

00:39:51What are your references?

00:39:52What are the things that you like?

00:39:54Right.

00:39:54You know?

00:39:54I can go in and for the first 10 minutes talk about how much I love The Crown.

00:39:57I can, walls go down.

00:39:59Right.

00:40:00Now when I pitch you the show about the drug dealer, it doesn't matter.

00:40:01It's I'm the girl who likes The Crown.

00:40:03It doesn't matter.

00:40:03I think you have to figure out to, you know, get in where you fit in.

00:40:07Right.

00:40:08And that's universal for everyone.

00:40:10I mean, I have friends who are 40 year old Jewish guys.

00:40:14There's a bunch of them in our business.

00:40:16True.

00:40:16But it doesn't mean their pitches are gonna get bought.

00:40:19Right.

00:40:19Because, and they went to college with me and all those things.

00:40:21But it's like, you still have to put in a good pitch no matter what you look like.

00:40:25Right.

00:40:25And I think sometimes we really make the whole argument about I'm different so they're not gonna buy it.

00:40:30Right.

00:40:30Nope.

00:40:31Go in with a good pitch and if the reason they don't buy it is because you're different, that's their

00:40:35loss.

00:40:36Right.

00:40:36I had, when I was pitching power, I had an executive say, well, I already have a black show.

00:40:41He said that right to my face.

00:40:42Wow.

00:40:42That's okay.

00:40:43Mm-hmm.

00:40:44Not on his network.

00:40:45We did all right without him.

00:40:47Mm-hmm.

00:40:47You know what I'm saying?

00:40:48Fine.

00:40:48Cool.

00:40:48Like, not a big deal, no hate.

00:40:50You know, all love.

00:40:51Yeah.

00:40:51You know, go where the love is, do the right pitch, it'll get bought.

00:40:54Yeah.

00:40:55One of the interesting conversations that have gone on in recent years is sort of the who can tell what

00:41:00story.

00:41:01Mm-hmm.

00:41:01I know that's obviously one that you've thought a tremendous amount about.

00:41:05Who the hell do you think you are?

00:41:06Yeah, but how much of that was self-imposed versus what you were sort of facing, you know, on the

00:41:13other side of that table?

00:41:14Whose blessing did you feel you needed to sort of tell a feminist story?

00:41:20Well, you know, my situation was relatively unique because I was writing based on a feminist novel.

00:41:28Right.

00:41:29That had had a long life in people, you know, and so people had experienced it as a novel first.

00:41:36So it had a certain amount of credibility and also had a live author that could bless me in terms

00:41:42of what I was doing with the book.

00:41:43Yep, right.

00:41:43This is not valid.

00:41:44It has the stamp.

00:41:46No.

00:41:47The document is no longer recognized.

00:41:49You are not married.

00:41:52Mommy.

00:41:53Mommy.

00:41:54What?

00:41:55It's forbidden.

00:41:57Forbidden?

00:41:58What does that mean?

00:41:59Forbidden by the law.

00:42:01Mommy.

00:42:02What law?

00:42:03The law.

00:42:05The law.

00:42:08The biggest hurdle is always the hurdle you put on yourself.

00:42:11I mean, I didn't want to do it if I was going to, I mean, I love the book too.

00:42:15I didn't want to ruin it.

00:42:16So if someone else, you know, I really thought I was the best person for the job.

00:42:20And if I thought someone else was, I was 100% for it.

00:42:22But whenever you start a show, you have weaknesses in any writing venture.

00:42:27And so what you just got to do is be honest about what those weaknesses are and reinforce them with

00:42:31all the other people who you're working with.

00:42:32And so that was the key is to say, okay, well, you know, first of all, I'm not a woman.

00:42:38So hire not just one woman, but a group of women and women who are comfortable sharing intimate things with

00:42:46you.

00:42:46Not intimate sexually, but intimate like how you go through the world and, you know, how you react to things

00:42:51really.

00:42:52And also, you know, just, you know, you want someone who's going to be able to explain stuff to an

00:42:57idiot, you know, and be very patient about it.

00:43:00You want someone who's going to be able to tell you very honestly and know that you're not asking for

00:43:04purient or just reasons to pry into their life, but you have to know.

00:43:07So you have to have a group of women, but women who are honest and stubborn and good writers and

00:43:13also know you well enough to know that you're, that you, when you ask a question, you really want the

00:43:18answer.

00:43:18Right. And with that room and how much rewriting do you do?

00:43:22I rewrite a lot. It's a, it's a weird show in terms of like, like structure and everything, but we,

00:43:31as a group, we outline very specifically before we send them off.

00:43:35So structure wise, it stays pretty much from the board to the episode on television.

00:43:41It's exactly the same scenes in exactly the right order, pretty much.

00:43:44And so a lot of it is, is scene work.

00:43:47And, and it's just the, the, there's a version of the show that sounds more like ye olde Puritans and

00:43:53we want to stay away from that.

00:43:54And that voice is hard for people to get their head around.

00:43:57And also I'm incredibly fussy. I didn't think I, I didn't used to be, but now I'm incredibly fussy.

00:44:02Can I just say though, sorry.

00:44:04Yes.

00:44:04One thing about who can write what.

00:44:06Yeah.

00:44:07I feel really strongly that if you hear Dan talking about how careful he was about writing the dialogue between

00:44:14those characters, that, that scene you're talking about.

00:44:18You see, I think, or David, David, you're not autistic, but you're very careful.

00:44:23I mean, obviously Peter's not a royal.

00:44:27Well, I think, I think.

00:44:3030,000 people have to die.

00:44:32I think he's kidding.

00:44:34Go ahead, go ahead.

00:44:34Well, look, I mean, I have mixed feelings about it.

00:44:36Cause I, cause I, uh, I asked Ali Salim, who is on, uh, on staff.

00:44:43He actually, you know, he also directed a couple episodes to write the 10th episode with me.

00:44:47And he wrote that scene because he, uh, is on half of his family, Egyptian, Muslim, and knows a lot

00:44:54more about that than, than I do.

00:44:55And I didn't feel equipped to do it.

00:44:57And so I split that 10th episode.

00:44:59I wrote all the America stuff and he wrote all the Yemen stuff.

00:45:02And, uh, and so I felt like I needed, like you said, I needed help in the room with people

00:45:09who had direct experience with a lot of it.

00:45:11And I think the show is better for it.

00:45:14Um, having said that, I don't only want to write about, uh, yeah, 50 year old guys who grew up

00:45:22in Larchmont.

00:45:22Um, we're all writing about people that aren't us.

00:45:26Yeah.

00:45:27This is a complicated question right now.

00:45:29It's a hard question.

00:45:30I will, yeah, I am not going to just write me, nor do I want to.

00:45:35There's going to be aspects of me in any character, wherever they're from.

00:45:39And I strive for, but at the same time, there are characters whose lives are so separate from mine that

00:45:44I wouldn't even know where to start.

00:45:47It seems like our entire job is cultural appropriation.

00:45:50I mean, whether it's a cultural appropriation on a tiny little scale, like this person's culture, this person's family, this

00:45:56person where they live, or on a bigger scale.

00:45:58But that's kind of, you're always taking someone else's life and trying to put it into a character.

00:46:03Of course, but I just feel like when we start to say only this person can write this narrative, those

00:46:09of us who are of color or somewhat othered, that means we can only write ourselves.

00:46:14Uh-uh. I ain't signed up for that.

00:46:16I am not going to say that only people of color can write people of color because that means only

00:46:20white people can write white people, and that's not okay.

00:46:23Every writer should be able to write anything.

00:46:25If you do the research, you're sensitive enough to ask the questions.

00:46:29Because I come from journalism.

00:46:30Would we say the same thing about journalists?

00:46:32Would we say that only certain journalists can cover certain things?

00:46:34No, educate yourself.

00:46:36Right.

00:46:36Ask people.

00:46:37And I think there is, I think for some of, I think it's, because look, most showrunners, I think Hollywood

00:46:44Reporter reported on this, that almost 80% of showrunners are white, straight men.

00:46:49Yep.

00:46:49So, and I think as the times change, that number will change hopefully because I think a lot of people

00:46:55always say that means most of what we're watching, it's a very similar narrative.

00:46:59Even if people are like writing different stories, you can't help, and that's where you come from.

00:47:03So, a big thing for me is, if you're a white, straight, male showrunner, and you want to tell a

00:47:08story that isn't like your life, that's totally cool.

00:47:10But you've got to have somebody whose life you're writing about right next to you.

00:47:14Mm-hmm.

00:47:14And you've got to be asking them, because sometimes I think what I don't love is the white, male, straight

00:47:19showrunner that acts as if they have the audacity to tell a narrative that isn't theirs without asking for help.

00:47:24Yes.

00:47:24And the problem is, they don't have to ask for help, because I also remember a lot of the execs

00:47:29look like them, and they're like, yeah, this story about this black family makes sense to me, me too, okay,

00:47:34cool.

00:47:34And never asking a black person, like, yo, is this right? Can we have that person in the room? I

00:47:39think that's when it becomes problematic for me.

00:47:41Sure. Yeah, no, I completely agree. It's like you always have to ask. Again, I'm from Connecticut. I'm from literally

00:47:46the same place as Bruce and as Dan here. We're from the same place.

00:47:51So my show doesn't look like their shows. Okay. Mm-hmm.

00:47:55Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.

00:47:56Yeah, it's the whole fun.

00:47:57An audience will reject it. An audience really will. I mean, ultimately, you know, you don't get away with it.

00:48:02No.

00:48:02I think you can, I think when someone hasn't taken enough care, you can smell it.

00:48:11Yeah. And it may be that the genre of whatever they're doing, it's okay that it doesn't matter.

00:48:16True. Yeah.

00:48:17You know, but if you're really after truth, and I think an audience is so sophisticated, they know instantly what

00:48:24the motivation behind a show is.

00:48:26Yeah. They can sense deeply, I think, how, what level of integrity a show has been made, and what the

00:48:33culture around the show is.

00:48:35That's why only great shows become successful.

00:48:51Your cast just found themselves sort of unwittingly in the center of a controversy over pay parody.

00:48:59I know. And the question for that is, how much responsibility in the past versus now and going forward do

00:49:07you feel you have, and this is meant to everybody.

00:49:10It's a really interesting question. I mean, I've been listening to everyone talking about, particularly, you know, firing people and

00:49:15stuff.

00:49:15I mean, I wouldn't do that. I mean, that's true, I, no, no, no, no, no, you know, I just.

00:49:19Oh, you're too good for that?

00:49:20No. No, I, no, we were chatting the other day, you know, about all the decisions you have to make.

00:49:27Yep.

00:49:28Given that this is probably, each one of us is doing six full-time jobs.

00:49:32Mm-hmm.

00:49:32So you have to think, well, where am I prepared to let other people just take over completely?

00:49:39Right.

00:49:39And there are some areas where some of us write less, some of us write more.

00:49:44I have absolutely nothing to do with business affairs, nothing at all.

00:49:47So when that story broke, you know, I was as horrified as the next person.

00:49:52But going forward, do you then, are you guys going to be sort of more involved and more and at

00:49:57least be knowledgeable?

00:49:58No, but you can't be. If you want to stay healthy and alive, and I would suggest that all of

00:50:02us are on the verge of, you know, bad health and insanity.

00:50:06And not being alive.

00:50:07Uh-huh.

00:50:07You know, you have to delegate and you have to say, this is the one, I mean, for example.

00:50:13And delegate for realsies, not just like, oh, you're going to do this and then I check all the time.

00:50:17I was asking Bruce, and Bruce goes on set a lot, and I really would love to go on set

00:50:21more.

00:50:21I probably, you know, to micromanage the culture of the show that you're on, I would love to know more

00:50:28about what decisions are we making with pay?

00:50:30Who are we paying?

00:50:32What are we doing?

00:50:32What are our employment, you know?

00:50:34But I simply have to let my colleagues and co-producers do that.

00:50:41And I have to choose, I have to say, well, if I only have so many hours or so much

00:50:45energy, this is the bit that I think I'm best suited to.

00:50:48And I think with all of us, that'll be different.

00:50:50Because we can't all do everything.

00:50:52Right.

00:50:52What about the rest of you?

00:50:53Given sort of how hot button and how much a conversation like this can usurp a show, do you guys

00:50:58feel a responsibility now and going forward to sort of be more involved or at least check these things?

00:51:06I'll probably make a phone call to Sony to say, hey, you're doing it right, right?

00:51:10Because I literally don't know what my people are being paid and I'm counting on them to be responsible.

00:51:15I'm going to make absolutely sure that I get paid as much as the actor.

00:51:20Well, you should.

00:51:21Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I mean, obviously I've been very involved in Time's Up and that sort

00:51:27of like movement.

00:51:27I think a big thing for me, and even though I was always very sensitive to it prior to that,

00:51:32but I've sort of myself and also my showrunner for season two, we're making sure that women feel safe on

00:51:40the set and hyper aware of what that means.

00:51:44And making sure that, you know, because obviously we're a premium cable show, there are sex scenes there.

00:51:48So we want to make sure that, you know, that anything that could have ever happened, you know, we want

00:51:53to make sure it's rectified.

00:51:54We want to make sure we're talking to these actresses and also talking to our male actors and making sure

00:51:58they're aware because I'm very, I don't play.

00:52:01I'm very tough about it where I'm like, look, it's the city of Chicago.

00:52:03People die every day.

00:52:04So it's like if you want to play that game and be disrespectful or misbehave on set with an actress

00:52:10or with anyone, I will happily call Showtime and say this person has to, you know, they will get shot

00:52:16up and it'll be a wonderful finale because I just don't, I have no, there's no gray area for me.

00:52:23And that's the kind of thing for me, I feel like I have to really always be keeping my ears

00:52:27to the ground about that kind of stuff.

00:52:28I actually had to throw at one point, and this is one of the things about being on set, which

00:52:33I would love to do, but can't do enough of, right?

00:52:36I've on sex scene days thrown people off set.

00:52:38It's a closed set.

00:52:39So like, why are you here?

00:52:40What is your function?

00:52:41If you're not holding the boom or operating a camera and you're not holding the robe, like there are like,

00:52:46you know, 10 jobs that are necessary for a sex scene.

00:52:49Other than that, you can get off set.

00:52:51Right.

00:52:51You can go.

00:52:51And I will go around and boot people because it is.

00:52:54And you have to do it.

00:52:55And I have to do it.

00:52:57Right.

00:52:57In a way that there's something about having a woman show runner.

00:53:01Right.

00:53:01Which means that I've actually asked you to take your clothes off and go through this sex scene and I

00:53:06promised you you're going to be safe on my set.

00:53:07Right.

00:53:07And you believed me because I was also female.

00:53:11So now I have to.

00:53:12It's a responsibility.

00:53:13I have to take the responsibility on.

00:53:14And we did the same thing too.

00:53:15And I left set as well.

00:53:17As few people as possible.

00:53:18As few people as possible.

00:53:19Yeah.

00:53:20I don't do it as often, obviously.

00:53:22But yeah, I chose to leave the set.

00:53:25And then the next day the actress came to me and asked me how she was in this scene.

00:53:29And I go, oh, Jesus.

00:53:31Uh-huh.

00:53:31I don't know how to behave.

00:53:32But.

00:53:33No.

00:53:34Yeah, I know.

00:53:34There's.

00:53:35Because I can't fathom what it feels like to do that as an actor.

00:53:39Because it seems it's so foreign just to be able to not only just translate your brain into someone else's

00:53:45brain.

00:53:45But also take off all your clothes in front of all these people and pretend you're alone with someone.

00:53:49Exactly.

00:53:50Yeah.

00:53:50And we do a lot of very odd sex scenes.

00:53:53I have to say though, our crew, I've never seen a more.

00:53:58However, they are so respectful to the point where, you know, every single monitor, there's a whole box of black

00:54:05around it.

00:54:05Yeah, there should be flags, yeah.

00:54:06And nobody sees anything.

00:54:08And literally, we have guys who stand on set with their backs to Lizzie.

00:54:13Wow.

00:54:13Because, first of all, they adore her and respect her and all that kind of stuff.

00:54:18But so that she doesn't feel more watched.

00:54:21So the boom operator is doing his job, and the guy who's pulling his cable is not watching him, but

00:54:28just holding the cable.

00:54:29The other piece of that, too, is also how many women do you have on set who are operating those

00:54:34cameras?

00:54:35That's true.

00:54:35Like, is our boom operator, our boom operator is female?

00:54:38What?

00:54:39Sometimes.

00:54:40Claire.

00:54:40They're usually so tall.

00:54:42Claire works it out.

00:54:44Longer pull.

00:54:44Do you know what I'm saying?

00:54:45But it's like, it's also, the other thing you have to be aware of is I have a high-level,

00:54:49I have two high-level female producers, and my UPM is female.

00:54:53That's great.

00:54:54So there's always a woman on set who's in a position of authority.

00:54:58Right, right.

00:54:58That's another whole piece of this.

00:54:59Our new producing director is a woman.

00:55:01Which is super exciting.

00:55:02We replaced a lot of male department heads with women this year, which is really phenomenal.

00:55:05Right, and that's what I'm saying is it's not just about, well, how do you curate the environment?

00:55:10It's like, how are you hiring?

00:55:12Sure.

00:55:12And when your department head, your favorite department head has an entirely male department, you have to ask the questions.

00:55:20You have to say, hey, there's no female focus pullers anywhere in New York City.

00:55:24Right, exactly.

00:55:24None.

00:55:25Like, let me ask the questions, you know?

00:55:27Sure, sure.

00:55:27It starts there.

00:55:28For you guys, who's been a sort of mentor to each of you in your careers?

00:55:33Not necessarily people who are on your payroll or in your family who read your things, but people who you

00:55:37feel like have lifted you up.

00:55:40I feel like I have a lot.

00:55:42My wife, for me.

00:55:43Yeah?

00:55:44I mean, I was an actor for a long time and she was writing in TV and she was on

00:55:50Homicide and other shows and I was making a transition and she taught me how to do it.

00:55:56And so, yeah, absolutely.

00:55:59Does she read everything you do now?

00:56:00Yeah, I mean, sometimes we write together, which I love doing.

00:56:06We've not done that for just the last little period of time, but I hope to do it again.

00:56:11But, yeah.

00:56:12I love that.

00:56:13Yeah.

00:56:14Yvette Lee Bowser, Robert and Michelle King, Greg Berlanti.

00:56:21Yeah, I would say, you know, if I really need something, I definitely call Yvette.

00:56:26And I go, girl.

00:56:27She's great.

00:56:28Yeah, help.

00:56:29You know?

00:56:29And she's huge.

00:56:31She's part of the showrunner training program.

00:56:32Right.

00:56:32So she's got you, you know what I mean?

00:56:33It really helps you along.

00:56:35Well, you're going to be mine from now on.

00:56:39I'm happy to take a call.

00:56:41Yeah, exactly.

00:56:42Seriously.

00:56:43Paul Haggis gave me my first executive producing job.

00:56:46I was lucky to get on a show that complimented my style because you will take any job at the

00:56:51beginning.

00:56:51Yeah.

00:56:51People always say, oh, why did you decide to do this?

00:56:54I'm like, because they called.

00:56:56Right.

00:56:56I mean, I sit on a pillow and I pick from all the scripts.

00:56:59Right.

00:57:00Right.

00:57:00And you learn from those initial jobs.

00:57:03Right.

00:57:03And you don't always learn what your weaknesses are.

00:57:06You are hopefully a sponge and you're growing there.

00:57:11And I was lucky enough to get, and then David E. Kelly, you know, people whose style I kind

00:57:19of admired and have emulated to a great extent.

00:57:23Who was the mentor in your career?

00:57:24Well, I mean, I've been, I mean, it's so different.

00:57:29We don't have anything like as collective an experience.

00:57:32You are some of the first writers I've met.

00:57:36You came out of the basement.

00:57:38It's the saddest story I've ever heard.

00:57:41It's, it's, um, we, so I've worked a lot with directors and producers.

00:57:47So in, in the theater and in cinema.

00:57:49And I guess each time you, you brush up against people like that, you, you take something away

00:57:54from it.

00:57:55Um, I would like to think that the, that the, the very big research and script team that

00:58:01I, you know, that we're slowly beginning to build up on the crown.

00:58:04You know, that, that, that there will be a culture where people can, can start this.

00:58:10But in, we have, we have no history of this in, in the UK.

00:58:13You need to talk to writers.

00:58:15You need to write it.

00:58:16Just for your own sanity, I find.

00:58:18It's such a specific kind of job.

00:58:21Yes.

00:58:21And a weird combination of skills.

00:58:23It does.

00:58:24Yeah.

00:58:24What about you guys?

00:58:25Who's, who's been the mentor?

00:58:27Um, well, I think Gina Prince-Bythewood, uh, who's, it's funny.

00:58:29She, people mostly know her in her feature career, but she began in television and she

00:58:33was writing on one of my favorite shows called A Different World and things like that.

00:58:37Her husband, Reggie Bythewood, was a big, uh, mentor of mine.

00:58:40Ava DuVernay is someone I can call up and have a real conversation with at any time.

00:58:45Uh, and Susan Fells Hill, um, is someone I really admire and love a lot who really, she

00:58:50was the showrunner of A Different World and was a young showrunner and, you know, worked

00:58:54with Yvette, you know, and, uh, Debbie Allen to craft that show.

00:58:57So, um, there's a lot of amazing women of color who have come before me, uh, that I can

00:59:02look to and have conversations with.

00:59:04It's really good.

00:59:05Yeah.

00:59:06I think there's, there's two different schools of it.

00:59:07One is the, the people who, who know that I'm, they're my mentor and then the people

00:59:12who have no idea who I am who I've never met.

00:59:14No, that's true.

00:59:15Give me someone in each category.

00:59:16That's true.

00:59:16I think Winnie Holtzman kind of taught me how to write and I've never met Winnie Holtzman.

00:59:20I mean, I mean, she wrote My So-Called Life.

00:59:22I mean, I agree with that.

00:59:23I think you have heroes.

00:59:24Yeah.

00:59:25You might not have a relationship with them.

00:59:26You may never have spoken to them.

00:59:27But you watch a GOG and, and, and, and, and their writing.

00:59:31And just over and over.

00:59:32I mean, I've seen everything over and over to the point where you pick it entirely apart.

00:59:36Who is that?

00:59:36Well, Winnie Holtzman's part of it.

00:59:37Oh, God.

00:59:38I mean, uh.

00:59:39Hersquits and Zoic.

00:59:40Yeah.

00:59:40Hersquits and.

00:59:42Woody Allen.

00:59:42Yeah.

00:59:43I mean, which is a name you can barely mention now.

00:59:45Right.

00:59:46And, and, and, and, you know, one of the terrible things about what's been going on is,

00:59:51does that mean I can't adore Hannah and her sisters anymore?

00:59:54Or, or something like that.

00:59:55You know, it's, it's, it's.

00:59:56It's the flip side of the conversation we were having before about, you know, what stories you're

01:00:01allowed to tell?

01:00:02What stories are you allowed to enjoy?

01:00:03You know?

01:00:04It, it reminds me of.

01:00:06Bill Goldman.

01:00:07Mm-hmm.

01:00:07Of course.

01:00:08Mm-hmm.

01:00:09I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here right now if the Cosby show wasn't on every night.

01:00:13You know?

01:00:13Right.

01:00:13Thursday night at my house.

01:00:14That was the only family like mine that was on TV.

01:00:17Right.

01:00:17You know what I mean?

01:00:17It was a family that looked nothing like mine, but loved the way we loved and lived the way

01:00:22we lived, in a way.

01:00:23It was the only family like mine, too, though.

01:00:25Well, I mean.

01:00:26I mean, because they were so, I was in Stanford, that looked exactly like that.

01:00:30No, I mean, I was going to say, though, if you think about Hannah and her sisters,

01:00:34the way I look at it is this.

01:00:35A script is a script.

01:00:37You know, I've read that script a million times, right?

01:00:38I've read, you know, Crimes and Misdemeanors, that script, millions of times.

01:00:43That's the script.

01:00:44That script is a work of art.

01:00:45That film is a work of art.

01:00:46Regardless of the artist, I have to look at that and go, I'm learning from this.

01:00:50I'm going to just fangirl out for a second.

01:00:53The thing that I love so much about House, that depiction of an addict, a functional addict,

01:00:58an addict who was going to work and was fucked up all the time, that was real.

01:01:05That came from a real place.

01:01:07And that's the same thing as that wonderful writing on the West Wing when the John Spencer character has the

01:01:12drink.

01:01:13And he says, I think the line is, how could you not want to feel like this?

01:01:18Like, great writing is inspiring, even if the people don't know that you're enjoying it.

01:01:22I've never met David.

01:01:23I used to watch House all the time, too.

01:01:24Yeah, exactly.

01:01:24I never met David until today.

01:01:26But it was that, in writing Ghost, if you don't see that there's a relationship between House

01:01:31and how he was hurting people all the time with his bullshit, and yet, and Ghost who's hurting everyone,

01:01:37even though the addictions don't look the same and the jobs don't look the same,

01:01:40they're both dispensing drugs, I mean, it's still, you have heroes, regardless.

01:01:46The Sopranos, I wouldn't have wanted to write long-form television without The Sopranos.

01:01:51There's so much precision and technical virtuosity in a lot of, particularly American writing,

01:01:59where things are set up and paid off.

01:02:02And Sopranos, nothing paid off.

01:02:04I know.

01:02:05It was a huge...

01:02:06It was set up and pay off, but they weren't connected to each other.

01:02:09Yes.

01:02:09There was set up and then there was pay off.

01:02:10Then it would leave a character and you'd think, well, thank God, I'm so looking forward to the next episode.

01:02:14And then the character disappeared.

01:02:16Yeah.

01:02:16And it was as though, surely must be a DVD missing.

01:02:22The thing, I mean, the thing I feel bad for you about missing is in the experience of being in

01:02:27the room.

01:02:28We were talking about mentors, but you also, I feel like this, for me, I had Adam Rapp and Bash

01:02:34Doran,

01:02:35and they're such different writers for me.

01:02:37And they're both playwrights.

01:02:39She writes, well, they both write beautiful plays very, very different from each other.

01:02:44And I asked you about the rewriting.

01:02:45I made a decision not to rewrite on the show.

01:02:49Wow.

01:02:49I would give a lot of notes.

01:02:50They would rewrite.

01:02:52And the show, the episodes sound different from one another.

01:02:54And I like that.

01:02:56I like it too.

01:02:56I mean, I like it on your show and I like it on my show.

01:02:58It's why you have different directors too.

01:03:00The directors put their stamp on it, that's okay.

01:03:01Otherwise it gets boring and it becomes the Bruce Miller joke all the time.

01:03:03Right.

01:03:04And so I feel like I continue to learn from them.

01:03:07I can get a little forward-moving narrative, plot, and they, as playwrights,

01:03:13they take a breath and let the scenes breathe a little bit.

01:03:16I feel like I'm still learning from them, from the people in the room.

01:03:20And so I feel the same way.

01:03:21I lament that we don't have it.

01:03:24And I think it's a great shame.

01:03:27You simply can't find people in the UK.

01:03:30We were chatting about it before, you know, everybody's got their own show.

01:03:34And we're in this era now of boom TV.

01:03:38And the most inexperienced, fledgling writers have got two or three shows on.

01:03:44But he's only 18.

01:03:46By the time you get to the Meghan Markle season, you'll have groomed some other writers, right?

01:03:51I will.

01:03:51I give you my word I will not get to the Meghan Markle season.

01:03:55Absolutely.

01:03:56I want to end with the show that influenced you as a kid,

01:04:00whether it's the one that made you want to become a writer

01:04:03or it's just the one that brought you joy.

01:04:07Seems like you've already done it.

01:04:08Oh, yeah, well, because I always say I grew up in a two-parent household,

01:04:11my mom and the television.

01:04:13So I was very blessed to not have, she couldn't afford to be a helicopter parent,

01:04:18so I could watch as much TV as I wanted.

01:04:20But the Cosby show in a different world were really huge.

01:04:23But also I watched a lot of old TV.

01:04:25To me, the Mary Tyler Moore show is the most perfect show to ever grace the small screen.

01:04:29We just watched it again.

01:04:30It's so whole time.

01:04:31It's so phenomenal.

01:04:32It's so great.

01:04:32I learned a lot about rhythm.

01:04:33I learned a lot about your protagonist not getting to be the least interesting person in the cast.

01:04:39And just how to be graceful and classy in a way to write a joke that it's funny then

01:04:44and still funny 20 years from now.

01:04:47But then also, too, you know, Sex and the City was very influential for me.

01:04:51You talk about writers that, you know, Michael Patrick King, I think, is sort of one of those writers that,

01:04:55I just, you know, the way I would listen to his director's commentary a lot on Sex and the City

01:05:00and the way he would choose to tell stories and how he would tell a story

01:05:02and the way he would complete an arc, it was really important.

01:05:05And that voiceover, and it was so rhythmic, it brings me a lot of joy.

01:05:09And then a show that I also love, which is a baby of Michael Patrick King,

01:05:12was a show called The Comeback, which brought me a lot of joy,

01:05:15but also really taught me about how to, you know, create characters that are flawed and deep and interesting

01:05:20but can still be lovable, even though they annoy the fuck out of you.

01:05:24So yeah, those are just one of the shows that really I love.

01:05:26What about you guys?

01:05:27Kids, what were you watching?

01:05:30I mean, I wanted to be an actor then, so I just wanted to be, you know, like Starsky and

01:05:35Hush,

01:05:35I want to slide over the hood.

01:05:38I always think about writing.

01:05:41Yeah, well, I was like, you know, my aunt used to worry that I was watching too much TV

01:05:46and was giving my parents shit for that.

01:05:49Yeah.

01:05:50Paid off.

01:05:51Yeah, I was doing research.

01:05:52But I didn't know I was doing research, and I wasn't doing research.

01:05:55There was nothing I watched where I went, oh, I want to do that.

01:05:57I just liked TV.

01:05:58What did you love?

01:05:58I just enjoyed TV.

01:06:00I enjoyed Mary Tyler Moore.

01:06:01I enjoyed New Heart.

01:06:02And there were none of those shows that made me want to be a writer,

01:06:05but I enjoyed them and I liked them.

01:06:07And then I think now it's become part of it.

01:06:09And then as I'm doing One Hours, I think David E. Kelly was the guy who just embraced the ethical

01:06:16dilemmas.

01:06:16Yes.

01:06:17And was not afraid to bring humor to it, which we now have in everything.

01:06:23And a magical realism American style.

01:06:25A little bit, yeah.

01:06:26You believed every moment of it at the same time.

01:06:29Even the dancing baby.

01:06:32Law and Order, Homicide Life on the Street, Oz.

01:06:37Rockford Files I'm throwing in there.

01:06:39Oh, that's cool.

01:06:40Have you watched it lately?

01:06:41I would say Cosby, Different World, sure.

01:06:43But I think the thing that made me a TV writer, probably Law and Order.

01:06:48Probably Law and Order.

01:06:50Because when that show was at its most elegant, it was bringing you beautiful dilemma.

01:06:57Right?

01:06:57Beautiful dilemma.

01:06:58Really richly created characters and really high stakes.

01:07:01I was always mad that they couldn't prevent the person from dying.

01:07:03Jimmy McGovern.

01:07:04Jimmy McGovern.

01:07:05I think I watched Jimmy McGovern's writing and that made me.

01:07:08And my best friend at school, when I was 10, his father was a script writer, Dick Clement,

01:07:19from Clement and Lafrenay.

01:07:20And I couldn't believe how cool that was.

01:07:23He wrote scripts.

01:07:25My kids' friends do not feel that way.

01:07:28He had a leather jacket.

01:07:31And I thought, phew.

01:07:33Then at one point they moved to Los Angeles.

01:07:35It was just breathtaking.

01:07:37It was all too much for you.

01:07:38I passed out.

01:07:40I feel I should add, I used to love watching the English comedies.

01:07:44Oh, are you being served?

01:07:46That's part of my childhood for sure.

01:07:47Well, Fry and Laurie, if I can throw that one out.

01:07:49Oh, wow.

01:07:51And I personally got to have the thrill of meeting him years later.

01:07:56Oh, wow.

01:07:56All right, so I lied.

01:07:57We're going to do one last one, but more as a lightning round if we can.

01:08:01Which is, if I were to ask your writers to describe you in a few words, what would they say?

01:08:07And this is going to be research.

01:08:09They would say, difficult to read.

01:08:11To read.

01:08:14I'm not sure how to interpret that.

01:08:16I know.

01:08:17That's a cheap joke.

01:08:19It is one of those things, you know when you go in and pitch to somebody, I find that I

01:08:22have zero knowledge of how they're feeling about it as I'm pitching.

01:08:26Because the expression of listening intently looks like kind of bored, kind of constipated disapproval, you know.

01:08:34And so you have zero knowledge.

01:08:36And I always didn't want to do that, and now I do.

01:08:39No, you don't.

01:08:39Because if I'm going to listen, you know.

01:08:41Yeah, you can.

01:08:42Yeah.

01:08:44I think they would probably say I'm a little bit like a favorite aunt.

01:08:49Uh-huh.

01:08:50In that.

01:08:50Nice for a few hours.

01:08:52Right.

01:08:53I mean, I think because I'm always trying to uplift and like, you know, remind them how great they are.

01:08:59And like, you know, when they're having a bad day, I remind them like their superpower in the room.

01:09:04Uh, that's to me always my mission is to make sure the writers feel great, like they're king and queen

01:09:10of the world.

01:09:11And so I think there's an element of that.

01:09:16Best in everything, so.

01:09:17All right, follow that, guys.

01:09:19What would your cast say about you?

01:09:20It wouldn't be the cast, it would be the research team.

01:09:23The research team and the script team, I think that's the happiest part of the show.

01:09:26I really do.

01:09:27I think it's also the quietest where everyone just skips to work, I think.

01:09:40I have no idea what they say about me because I don't have any listening devices.

01:09:44But I think they're happy.

01:09:49They're happy on the outside.

01:09:52The difficulty I find is with, you know, there are so many producers.

01:09:57Right.

01:09:57There are, you know, and when it gets, you know, there are, but the real-

01:10:00Careful, one of them is here.

01:10:02Is that following you?

01:10:03She's a good one.

01:10:08But when it gets really down to it, the safest place of all is essentially just the researchers, the writers.

01:10:15That's where it all, you know.

01:10:15That's the writers' room you were talking about.

01:10:17Yeah, I know.

01:10:17So he's getting it.

01:10:18It is a very odd place, the writers' room.

01:10:21And the lightning round of this, and then how would they describe you?

01:10:24Probably deliberate.

01:10:25Mm-hmm.

01:10:26Mm-hmm.

01:10:28And probably supportive.

01:10:31Good.

01:10:31I think.

01:10:32What about you, David?

01:10:32It's a great one.

01:10:34Difficult to read is probably, because I'm, it's partly, I'm slightly boring.

01:10:41Or maybe, I've got a very exciting job, but I, that's all I kind of do.

01:10:46And then I go home to my family.

01:10:47And so there's like not a lot going on.

01:10:50And I tend to just, I tend to be very even keel.

01:10:54And I think that goes with it.

01:10:56So I, you know, you've been picked up.

01:10:58Oh, that's great.

01:10:59Okay.

01:11:00Well, I got to do how many episodes?

01:11:02And you've been canceled.

01:11:03All right.

01:11:03Oh, okay.

01:11:04Okay.

01:11:05Which I think is a healthy approach to things.

01:11:07Sure.

01:11:08Sure.

01:11:09Emotions run the gamut from A to B.

01:11:11Yes.

01:11:11And what about you, David?

01:11:12How would I describe you?

01:11:14I feel like I'm probably the neediest of all you guys.

01:11:17I mean, I treat, I often, if I have to have a difficult conversation.

01:11:22Which one was an actor?

01:11:22That's the part of it.

01:11:24I've been coming in and I say, okay, what do you guys think?

01:11:26I'm thinking of saying this.

01:11:27Like, would it be healthy if I got on the phone and I said this?

01:11:31Like, how does that sound to you?

01:11:32How does that sound to you?

01:11:33And then they give me advice and then I go get on the phone.

01:11:36But it takes a thousand times of doing that before you're the person who tells you whether it's healthy.

01:11:40Because it, I mean.

01:11:42I will never trust myself to tell you.

01:11:44Yeah.

01:11:44But I still do it.

01:11:45I still ask and run stuff by everybody in my office.

01:11:49On that note, thank you guys for being here.

01:11:51I really appreciate it and it was a great conversation.

01:11:54Thank you so much.

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