00:07My guest on 12 Minutes With is British Guionese businesswoman and campaigner Gina Miller.
00:13She made headlines after she successfully challenged the British government in two constitutional landmark rulings after the Brexit vote in
00:202016 and later in 2019.
00:23Thank you for joining us Gina Miller.
00:24And to begin with, can you remind our viewers what legal action you took against the British government over Brexit
00:30following the June 2016 referendum?
00:33And can you distinguish for our audiences between your personal stance against Brexit and the legal basis for these cases?
00:40Yes, lovely to join you. My personal opinion then and remains that we should have stayed in the EU.
00:47But that is completely separate from the process, the legal process and the constitutional requirements.
00:52And my case is the first against Miller, one against Mrs May, was because she was trying to trigger Article
00:5950 to leave the European Union to begin that process by bypassing Parliament.
01:04And on the second occasion, exactly the same, Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, was going to try and close down
01:11Parliament, what we call prorogation, for a long period of time,
01:14which again would have meant that Parliament would have no say and we would crash out with a no deal,
01:19both of which are Prime Ministers putting themselves above the law.
01:22So irrespective of my personal support for remaining, this was very much more about the process and ensuring the Prime
01:31Ministers could not put themselves above the law.
01:33Because we have, ironically, if you remember, everyone talking about parliamentary sovereignty, it was about defending parliamentary sovereignty.
01:42And 10 years on from the referendum, can you paint a picture of where it's left the country, both economically
01:48and politically?
01:49It's been a decade of decline. Unfortunately, there was no plan, which is always something I suspected,
01:57that the Brexiteers, the Leavers, had no plan for what would happen if they had won.
02:02And that has unfortunately played out in the fact that there is a confirmation that our economy has been damaged
02:08by around four to five.
02:10Actually, now most economists say it's about five percent GDP. We have a real lack of foreign investment into the
02:17UK.
02:18I mean, there is almost non-existent foreign investment in the UK. We have instability in our politics.
02:24We have now, instead of the traditional two-party systems, we very much now have a five-party system.
02:30And the country has become more divided. I mean, Brexit, the whole referendum, the dishonesty and the way the division
02:37that was sown has damaged our country.
02:40So it is now a place that is a very much a populist country.
02:44So my view now is about what happens for the next 10 years. So we have to look forwards.
02:49And I'm hoping for a leader, now that our Prime Minister has resigned, I'm hoping that a new leader of
02:57the Labour Party has a plan and a strategy
02:59and can give some clarity on the direction of travel, on our relationship with Europe from the point of view
03:06of our economy, prosperity, defence,
03:09which is so important, and also tackling the big issues such as AI and the environment.
03:15And before we look forward, just to finish looking backwards, from your perspective,
03:19what are some of the biggest lies about Brexit that never came true and, in contrast, have any promises?
03:27The biggest lie was about Turkey joining. Those posters that leave remained that we would have hundreds of thousands of
03:33people coming across our border were,
03:35I mean, they were fabricated lies and they were images that were generated that were not true.
03:40The idea that leaving the EU would suddenly solve all our domestic issues,
03:46it was just an excuse, a cowardly excuse for putting off the real hard work that needs to be done
03:52when it comes to the domestic issues that we had and were deepened after the global financial crisis.
03:58The lies on that it would end immigration, all it's done.
04:02And we can see that, you know, we've had the highest levels of legal migration post-Brexit
04:08than we have ever had, you know, close to, well, depending on your figure,
04:13somewhere between 600,000 and a million people that are ex-EU.
04:16So the idea when I was going around the country that was being sold by Brexiters is,
04:21leave the EU, stop our migration problems.
04:25It was a lie.
04:26And then the 350 million that we would save for the NHS was a lie.
04:30There were so many of them.
04:32Do you believe that the Labour government has made positive strides
04:36when it comes to mending its relationship with the EU?
04:39And do you think that Starmer's resignation will weaken ties
04:42or be an opportunity to strengthen them further?
04:45I have been very disappointed that Prime Minister Starmer was much not clearer
04:50on what he called about his realigning.
04:53I don't understand not agreeing to a youth mobility scheme
04:56when we have one with 13 other countries
04:58and restoring that opportunity for our young people.
05:02The idea of not pursuing a much closer relationship in a formal way.
05:07To my mind, the door is open on a Swiss-type agreement,
05:11and I think that's something we should be very clear about.
05:13And I think rather than cherry-picking here, there, and everywhere
05:17in tiny little steps, I'm hoping the opportunity is there for the new leader,
05:21a new leader to be much bolder and talk about alignment.
05:25As I said, from my personal point of view, I think what is achievable
05:28before the next general election, because we've got reform,
05:32lurking over our British politics and possibly a reform-type government
05:36after the next general election, that to me is Swiss-style agreement.
05:40We have got to do something like that, to make sure that the door is kept open
05:44to one day perhaps rejoining, because that's what I'd like to see.
05:47But I don't think we have the political bandwidth in either Europe or the UK
05:51to be talking about that right now.
05:53And how positively do you feel about the upcoming UK-EU reset talks?
05:58From your perspective, what's lacking in these talks with the EU,
06:02both in terms of political will and concrete measures?
06:06I think on our side, it is that the red lines are nonsensical to me,
06:11such as, as I said, I mentioned the youth mobility scheme.
06:14I think it's great that we're going to have some of the changes
06:16when it comes to agriculture and reducing of some of the red tape,
06:21but it's not enough.
06:22Our businesses are on the floor.
06:23You know, we need much more, we need a relationship
06:27that actually reverses some of the damage when it comes to the paperwork,
06:31the burden on businesses that will attract foreign investment
06:34and will actually stop the drift towards lower regulation
06:38where too many of our politicians on the right want us to go to.
06:41So I think it's really important that we have those closer relationships.
06:45And do you believe that there's a chance that Brexit could ever be reversed?
06:49And if not, why?
06:50And if so, in what time frame?
06:53I think the process, you know, we have, this is not about surrender
06:56when I say that it's not rejoining maybe sometime in the future.
07:01It's about the reality of where we are.
07:03The reality is that there are other people ahead of the queue.
07:05Why should we be given special treatment?
07:07There are other member states who are ahead of,
07:09or other countries ahead of us.
07:11Secondly, we would have to have, I think,
07:14much more of the population in the UK wanting it.
07:17The figures are for rejoined,
07:19but I don't believe that there is enough of the population.
07:22It is not a big enough gap yet.
07:25And also the time.
07:26We are facing so many crises geopolitically in the world
07:30that I don't think we have a time for our parliaments,
07:35both in the EU and the UK,
07:37to be occupied with negotiating a rejoining deal.
07:40It would take out all the energy that's needed elsewhere.
07:42And you decided to take the government to court
07:45over its handling of Brexit,
07:47which made you kind of public enemy number one for Brexiteers.
07:51But from your perspective,
07:52would you say there's a culture of political apathy in the UK
07:55compared to European neighbours?
07:58The one positive, if there is one positive from Brexit,
08:03is that as a country,
08:05ordinary people in the street didn't really talk about politics
08:07as they do in Europe,
08:08as you do in your European member states.
08:09Now people are much more engaged.
08:12And that's why we are seeing so many of the new parties
08:15that are coming up.
08:17And, you know, Greens party doing so well,
08:19the new extreme right party restore.
08:22People are more engaged.
08:23And that is a positive
08:24because actually a healthy democracy
08:25requires people to be more engaged.
08:27That said, it is also very divisive politics.
08:31So, you know, there's good and bad to that.
08:33But I think the problem is
08:36that we don't have politicians with courage.
08:39We do not have politicians
08:41that are spelling out the difficulties of where we are,
08:44not just to do with Europe,
08:46because there are so many economic and domestic problems
08:49that we have in the UK.
08:51You know, they're not sort of telling people
08:55honest truth about where we are
08:56and the hard choices we need to make
08:58to get to a better place.
09:00And that includes increasing, you know,
09:04we can't do very much
09:05if we don't have money in the coffers.
09:07And one of the things we need to do
09:09is to ensure that we have,
09:10we can increase our GDP
09:11and investment from abroad.
09:14And the markets and investors,
09:16if there was a plan that they could see,
09:18not just people in the UK,
09:19that sense of stability
09:22and a direction of travel
09:24would actually increase
09:26the confidence that people have.
09:29And at the moment,
09:30very few people,
09:31be it businesses,
09:32investors and the public themselves,
09:34have confidence in our politicians.
09:36And you faced a huge torrent of online abuse
09:38when you took the government to court over Brexit
09:41and this led you to be protected
09:42by an anti-terrorism brigade.
09:45How dangerous has it been for you
09:46to be an outspoken critic of Brexit?
09:49And do you believe that there's still a risk
09:51in being this outspoken today?
09:54Unfortunately, you know,
09:55it came with death threats
09:57and, you know,
09:58the violent people went to prison
09:59because of the death threats against me.
10:02It was not something I ever envisaged.
10:04I mean, I knew there would be a backlash,
10:06but I didn't think it would be
10:07of such a violent nature
10:09and such an abusive nature.
10:11And I'm afraid as the anniversary,
10:14the 10th anniversary now means it,
10:16because for a long time,
10:16nobody, the B word was not mentioned
10:19by politicians.
10:20It was, they were too frightened to mention it.
10:22Now with the anniversary this week,
10:25since last week, they have done,
10:26and the abuse has increased
10:27that I've been receiving.
10:29And oddly enough,
10:30I'm getting it from both sides this time.
10:31I'm getting it from the leavers
10:33because they're saying,
10:34oh, she's going to try it.
10:35You know, their hatred hasn't gone away.
10:38And I'm afraid the Reform and Restore Party,
10:41because they are whipping up
10:42all the anti-migrants
10:44and the divisions in our country
10:46and the anti-EU settlement sentiment,
10:49then that I get a backlash
10:50that it has a consequence for me.
10:52But also the Remainers
10:54are not happy with me either
10:55because they think
10:56we could just rejoin tomorrow.
10:57So I take a pragmatic line
11:02and I believe we have to look at process
11:05and we have to be honest
11:06about what that process means to people.
11:08And that tends to be
11:10a very unpopular place to be
11:13from either side.
11:14But I think it's important
11:16that someone fills that gap.
11:17And I will carry on doing that
11:19because we cannot get to a better place
11:21until we talk about what is needed.
11:23And I have to say,
11:25whatever happens next
11:26cannot be sneaked through the back door.
11:29And that's one of the things
11:30I think was wrong
11:31that the Prime Minister Starmer
11:33was talking about.
11:35It was a change that would be done
11:36through what's called
11:37secondary legislation
11:38so it wouldn't be debated in Parliament.
11:40As I said,
11:41and I defended the parliamentary sovereignty,
11:44I think any realignment
11:45and changes that come in the future
11:46need to be transparent
11:48and in the open
11:50and debated by Parliament.
11:51It can't be through the back door.
11:52Thank you very much Gina Miller
11:54for joining us on Euronews.
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