00:00We are just two weeks away from a major national milestone in America, turning 250 years old.
00:04That's 250 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
00:07And if you've ever seen the musical Hamilton, you know at least one part of the Declaration by heart.
00:11I won't sing it.
00:12We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.
00:17I think you were supposed to sing it.
00:18At least speak it rhythmically.
00:20You've set me up for that.
00:21All right, we tried.
00:22But of course, there's a lot more to our country's history than the line of a musical.
00:26And here to tell us all about it is host of the podcast, History That Doesn't Suck.
00:30Professor Greg Jackson.
00:31He's also Utah Valley University's Center for Constitutional Studies professor on America 250.
00:36And he wrote a new book called Been There, Done That, How Our History Shows What We Can Overcome.
00:41And if that wasn't enough, he also has an upcoming PBS special that involves a full orchestra and you playing
00:47a guitar.
00:47Now, you are here without your guitar today.
00:49Sam's guitar.
00:50We are still excited to have you.
00:51Well, thank you.
00:52I appreciate the forgiveness.
00:54We will make that happen next time.
00:55I understand, David, you played violin.
00:57Yes.
00:57Perfect.
00:57Because the melody line of my theme song is usually played by the violin.
01:01So we're going to get you that sheet music in advance.
01:03We'll make it happen.
01:04All right.
01:04So talk to me about the melody line, the through line of American history as you look at it in
01:09your book.
01:09You say there are common things that, you know, history echoes and it repeats and things that are relevant to
01:13folks who may look at America right now and think,
01:16oh, maybe we're not doing so well.
01:17Absolutely.
01:17I like the way Mark Twain is alleged to have put it, which is not that history repeats itself, but
01:22that it rhymes.
01:23Okay.
01:24So in my book, I look at contested elections, which we had plenty of them, political violence and fake news.
01:32Fake news going all the way back to the printing press of Benjamin Franklin.
01:35So we go from the 1790s up to 1900.
01:38I purposely avoid the 20th century to really highlight that this stuff's old and we're looking into some of the
01:45deepest, darkest abysses of American history.
01:47But here's where it gets hopeful.
01:49My point is that these are things that the American Republic has endured.
01:53That we've not only overcome so completely that we stuck around, but that I have to write a book to
01:59remind you it even happened.
02:02Talk to us about – sorry, go ahead.
02:03No, I was going to say you mentioned election interference and kind of the path that we've been down in
02:08the past when it comes to that.
02:09I mean we're looking ahead to an election where I think there's a lot of fear that it will be
02:12contested.
02:12There will be legal maneuvering.
02:14People are worried about sort of how it's all going to play out.
02:16Take us back to the 19th century.
02:17This is something we've dealt with before.
02:18Yes, so the finest example, the most corrupt election, I will tell you, and I claim it in my book,
02:23the most corrupt election in American history to date is the election of 1876.
02:28A contested election that led to investigation into four states.
02:33And what we learned is that hundreds of black voters were murdered beyond others that were convinced not to vote,
02:42shall we say.
02:43Accusations of bribes, attempts of bribes.
02:45South Carolina somehow managed to cast 101 percent of its vote.
02:49Sure, sure.
02:50Humanities guy, but the math doesn't add up for me.
02:52Yes.
02:52Okay.
02:53This ultimately goes to Congress.
02:55And so they not only are asking are these votes valid, they're having to ask which set of votes to
03:01accept because four states, three from the South and Oregon, have submitted separate sets.
03:06Both parties, Republicans and Democrats, are refusing to concede that they didn't win.
03:11So here's Congress going well, which set actually counts.
03:14So when you talk about trying to figure out who has the authority and power to count electoral votes, that's
03:19where this all really crystallized.
03:21And I walk you through 100 years of American history, first of all, to get through every single time, going
03:26back to even, say, Thomas Jefferson, when there was some question about the specifics of the returns in his election.
03:32And he's the guy counting the votes as vice president, or is he counting them because who's doing the counting,
03:37right?
03:37Passive voice in the Constitution.
03:39So I get into all of that nitty gritty, taking us up to 1876, where we have an outcome that
03:45leads Democratic lawyer, Jeremiah Black, to say, we will never have an honest election again.
03:52That's his conviction.
03:53He declares that as Congress is weighing this out.
03:57And, again, I have to tell you about this because we not only came through that moment but got to
04:03the, quote, unquote, golden age of the 20th century.
04:06You also talk about kind of fake news and Benjamin Franklin.
04:11I actually was just reading about Paul Revere coming up with, like, crazy wood carvings to depict some of the
04:18things that were happening and try to, like, foment anti-British hatred that really were a little sketchy when it
04:24came to the truth.
04:24And apparently Benjamin Franklin did something similar.
04:27Yes.
04:27So, you know, what you're talking about there, we get to the Boston Massacre.
04:30Now, my special on PBS, The Unlikely Union, which you can stream right now, I tell that story.
04:38So British publications called that evening, March 5th, 1770, an unhappy disturbance in which troops defended themselves from a mob.
04:48Meanwhile, the Boston Gazette is calling it a bloody massacre of innocent lads.
04:56This carries through.
04:57We were talking about Joseph Pulitzer during the break.
04:59I mean, we know the term yellow journalism.
05:01But as we see so much division over how people are getting their news and information, distrust in the media,
05:07this is also something that has kind of a familiar resonance in American history.
05:10And, David, here's the big takeaway.
05:12This is the work you have to do if you want to enjoy the liberties that come of the Constitutional
05:16Republic.
05:16Look, that's it.
05:18So this is a burden and a privilege that's fallen on every generation of Americans.
05:23And that is what I want Americans to remember as they read, been, they're done that.
05:26So it is a hopeful story because it's a reminder that we have been through worse.
05:31We've gotten out of it.
05:32And if, so this isn't a Pollyanna, everything's going to be okay.
05:35But more like your doctor telling you, hey, you know what, you're not dying actually, but it is time to
05:41start exercising and eating right.
05:43As we look at American history, I think we tend to think it's on a few great men.
05:48We're always talking about these revolutionary founding fathers.
05:50But actually, when you look at it, it was a lot of little acts by a lot of a little,
05:55by a lot of smaller Americans who made a big impact over time.
05:59How does that resonate as you look at the history of consensus, the history of what people can do when
06:04they pull together in light of a common goal, whether that's preservation of democracy or whatever they're trying to achieve?
06:08That's what we, the people, is.
06:11And, you know, the founders aren't the ones that put themselves on that pedestal.
06:14That's one of the things that always gets at me.
06:16They were some of the first to say, guys, we messed up left, right, and center.
06:19And we had help.
06:20Yes, and we had help.
06:22And here's an article in the Constitution on nothing but how to change it.
06:25And by the way, we're only calling this a more perfect union.
06:27We are not going to call this perfect, right?
06:31We, the people, this idea of us voting, of us participating, that's where the magic happens.
06:36They would have said that if they were here today seated on these couches.
06:39Let me ask you, guys, I'll put a question to you, I put to Senator Warnock, which is how do
06:42you see this 250th anniversary and intend to mark it?
06:46What is the significance of this date on our calendar?
06:49And what should we take away from the fact that we've made it 250 years?
06:52I think there's a lot to celebrate.
06:53Look, you're, this is the oldest large scale.
07:00I mean, we've got to put a few qualifiers in there.
07:02But the oldest large written constitution, if we exclude the state of Massachusetts, enduring, right?
07:09I, this republic has come a long way.
07:12And what I see as I tore through and wrote this book over the course of several years, been there,
07:17done that,
07:18I see that the American people, when push comes to shove, make the choices needed to keep us going forward.
07:25I'm excited to mark 250 years, and I believe there's 250 more to come.
07:29All right.
07:30Professor Greg Jackson, host of History That Doesn't Suck.
07:32Thank you so much for joining us.
07:34Come back.
07:34I'll get the fiddle.
07:35I'll bring the guitar.
07:36I'll bring the guitar.
07:36We'll make it happen.
07:37We'll make it happen.
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