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00:00Today is June 22nd, and we are in the Sheraton Hotel at West Palm Beach, Florida.
00:05Okay, this is Eldon Orker. When were you born, Mr. Orker?
00:09I was born in September 21st, 1910.
00:12And where?
00:13In North Cater, Kansas.
00:15Same as Walter Johnson, at least same state.
00:17Yeah, he's in the same state.
00:18Very good. Was he one of your idols growing up, perhaps?
00:21No, when I was growing up, I didn't know very much about professional baseball.
00:28I never followed it because we were too far out in the West, and we didn't have professional baseball out
00:35there.
00:35Okay. And obviously you played baseball when you were young.
00:40Yeah.
00:40Did you have any brothers or sisters who played?
00:42No, I had no brothers or sisters either.
00:44How about your dad?
00:45No, my dad never played either.
00:47Well, how did you get interested in it?
00:48Well, just playing around the summertime, you know, playing with the kids and start playing baseball.
00:55And then finally, when I was a, let's see, a junior in high school, the town team asked me to
01:07come out and work out with them, which I did.
01:10And we had a town team just picked up town teams, you know.
01:13And so I joined them.
01:15And you played other towns?
01:16And we played other towns, little small towns around the country.
01:19Were you always a pitcher?
01:21Yeah.
01:22Well, I played first base when I wasn't a pitcher.
01:27And when did you develop the underhand?
01:31When I joined, well, when I first started playing, any kind of baseball was in college.
01:41Where did that college?
01:42At Kansas State University.
01:44In Manhattan?
01:44Yeah, Manhattan.
01:47And I had always thrown overhand, but I played football at Kansas State.
01:55And the first, before the first game, I had my shoulder, what we called a knock-down shoulder.
02:03I think today would be a separation.
02:06They just called it knock-down then.
02:08And then later on, I had, I had a similar problem.
02:14And when I finished school, I was throwing side arms.
02:19And when the Tigers signed me, I was throwing side arms.
02:24And when I went to Detroit, right after I graduated on June the 1st, why, they sent me, I was
02:31up there about 10 days in Detroit,
02:33taking batting practice.
02:34And they sent me down to Decatur in the Three Isle Lake.
02:39And there was a manager down there, Bob Colton, who was quite well known in the minor leagues as a
02:47manager.
02:47And he was a, he was a great guy for young, young kids, you know.
02:53And he watched me throw batting practice when I got there.
02:59And he said to me, he said to Eldon, he said,
03:02You know, if you're going to pitch in the major leagues, you've got to get the ball over the plate.
03:07And he said, most sidearmers have trouble hitting that 17-inch target from 16, 16 inches.
03:14And he said, I would like to see you throw directly underhand so you'll line up with the plate.
03:22He said, when you're throwing out to the side, he said, you're cutting at that plate, throwing the plate at
03:28an angle.
03:29And he said, I'd like to see you throw directly underhand and line up with the plate.
03:33He said, I think you'd have better control.
03:35He said, you've got a good fastball and a good curveball.
03:38And he said, there was a, another pitcher for the Yankees, Carl Mays, that pitched for the Yankees years ago.
03:50And he was threw directly underhand.
03:52He's the guy that killed the Cleveland player.
03:56He hit him in the head.
04:00Ray Chapman.
04:01Ray Chapman.
04:01Yeah, Ray Chapman, I guess it.
04:04And so I'd never heard of him or anything like that.
04:06Ray Chapman.
04:07So I picked batting for four or five days.
04:11And Quincy was leading the league.
04:13And they were coming to town and Bob said to me, he said, Elden, he says, you're going to pitch
04:19the game against Quincy.
04:21He said, you're going to pitch the entire ball game.
04:23I don't care how many men you walk or how many hits you go from him.
04:26He said, you're out there for nine innings or ten or whatever it was going to be.
04:30And I told you to throw any other way except underhand, which I did.
04:34Well, I shut them out, and I struck out something like 14 or 15 men, and we won the ball
04:39game, one to nothing, and two to nothing.
04:41I never threw any other way since then.
04:44Impressive debut.
04:46Can we just go back to Kansas State a minute?
04:48You did play on the Kansas State baseball team?
04:51Yeah, yeah, I lost two games.
04:53I lost one to Oklahoma University of Oklahoma, and one to the University of Missouri in the three years out
04:57there.
04:59And I guess you probably made it on conference.
05:01Steve, yeah, Steve O'Rourke signed me with the Tigers.
05:04He was a scout?
05:05Yeah, he was a scout for the Tigers.
05:07Casey Stengel was a scout for the Brooklyn Dodgers, and Casey wanted me to sign with the Dodgers.
05:14But O'Rourke said, well, he said, I think you've got a better chance getting the Major League with the
05:19Tigers,
05:20because they're building the young team, and Brooklyn's got an old team, got a bunch of old pitchers,
05:24and he said, I think you'll do better if you try to play.
05:26This was around 1931, I guess.
05:27I was in, yeah, but I graduated, I graduated in June, 1932, and I went from there, graduation, right to
05:36Detroit.
05:37And then right to Decatur, 1932.
05:41Yeah.
05:41Okay, and, okay, you won that game, but then it looks like your record was one and six in that
05:48league.
05:48In what league was that?
05:49And that was Decatur, the Three Islands.
05:51I don't, I don't remember.
05:53Then you went to Moline later that year.
05:55Yeah.
05:55Yeah, the league went broke.
05:57Oh.
05:58Yeah, the league went broke.
05:59And you went to Moline in the Mississippi Valley.
06:02That's right.
06:03I guess that, obviously, is down in the south.
06:05Yeah.
06:06Had you ever been that far away from home before?
06:09Well, just in college where we played football and basketball.
06:15I played football and basketball.
06:17That's what three sports.
06:19And we played, you know, all of West Virginia in football.
06:25Boulmont-Millen was our coach out there.
06:27Football was my sport.
06:29In fact, I, in my last year in football, Brock Nagurski and another guy came out from Chicago
06:38and wanted me to sign a contract with the Bears.
06:40They offered me a contract for $500 a game and a 12-game guarantee, which was $6,000.
06:47I guess that was a lot of money in this.
06:49Well, sure was.
06:51And I signed the contract with the Tigers for $450 a month.
06:57But I was just trying to get money to get back to go to school because I went to school
07:02and I graduated pre-med and I wanted to be a doctor and I didn't have any money to go
07:07to medical school.
07:08So I was just trying to earn money to go to medical school.
07:10Did you get such a thing as bonuses in those days?
07:12No.
07:12No, no.
07:13No bonuses.
07:14Just the opportunity.
07:16Okay.
07:17Okay.
07:18So after that, then, the next year, 1933, you went to Beaumont in the Texas area.
07:22Yeah.
07:23Who was the manager there?
07:24Uh, let me see, uh, uh, Bob Coleman.
07:28I think.
07:29Yeah, Bob Coleman.
07:30Bob Coleman.
07:30Okay.
07:31And, uh, that was a good year.
07:3216 wins, 10 losses.
07:34Yeah.
07:34I don't remember that.
07:36No.
07:37Do you remember any of the players you played with or against who went on to prominence?
07:41Uh, yeah.
07:42Claude Passo was my roommate.
07:44Claude ended up, I think, was Chicago.
07:46He was originally signed with the Tigers and he hurt his arm.
07:49Uh, and, uh, then I lost track of him after I went to the Tigers.
07:55And, uh, he, uh, uh, later came up with the Cubs, I believe it was, and he was in Philadelphia.
08:02And I haven't, uh, seen him since then.
08:05He pitched that one hitter in the, uh, 45 World Series.
08:07Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:08Claude, and it was, before he hurt his arm, when he first came up.
08:12In fact, we got to Beaumont.
08:14He got in, uh, Beaumont, I mean, to Decatur.
08:18Uh, he went to Millsap College.
08:21And he got into, uh, uh, Decatur the night before I arrived the next morning by train.
08:31And he called me rookie.
08:33Yeah, just seniority about two hours.
08:35And we were, and we were roommates all the time from there on.
08:37Very good friends.
08:38Okay.
08:39Now, later that year, you came up to Detroit.
08:41Yep.
08:42Towards the end of the year.
08:43Yes.
08:43Can you remember your first game?
08:47Uh, my first game, I think, I believe it was against, uh, Chicago.
08:53I went into relief, uh, against, uh, Teddy Lyons.
08:58I met the team in Chicago.
09:01And, uh, uh, I believe the day I arrived, they sent me to Volkham, and I went into relief
09:10somewhere in about the third or fourth inning, and that was my first.
09:14Now, when you arrived in, in the major leagues, were you, were you the only submariner at that
09:20time?
09:21Yeah.
09:22During your career, were there any others while you were playing?
09:24No.
09:25No, not directly.
09:26So you were very unique.
09:27Yeah, they've been, uh, they've been, uh, of course the area was, uh, close to it.
09:33But that was well answered.
09:34That was a long time after it, yeah.
09:36All right, okay.
09:37So that first year you came up, uh, three and three.
09:40You were three wins, three losses.
09:41Yeah.
09:42Okay.
09:42I don't remember those records.
09:44Okay, right.
09:44Then the next year, the next year, uh, 1934, that was a good year.
09:50Yeah.
09:50Fifteen wins, seven losses.
09:52Yeah.
09:52We won the pennant that year.
09:53You want to tell them, you played for some, uh, well-known players.
09:56Yeah.
09:57Well, they, uh, uh, like Steve O'Rourke said, Detroit Tigers was building the ball club.
10:03Uh, 33 was, uh, Bucky Harris was the manager, and, uh, that was the year that, uh, when
10:09I came up, uh, Greenberg came up, uh, Schoolboy Roe, uh, Gerald Walker, uh, Pete Fox, Jojo
10:20White.
10:22Uh, I believe Larm and Owen, if I'm not mistaken, and we all came up the same year, and, uh,
10:31then,
10:31uh, Cochran came over, uh, at the beginning of the 34 season from Philadelphia.
10:37And, uh, when we were in spring training in Lakeland, that was our first year in Lakeland,
10:43why, uh, Cochran started talking to us about, uh, winning a pennant.
10:48Cochran was the manager.
10:49Yeah.
10:49And the catcher.
10:50Playman.
10:51Yeah.
10:52Yeah.
10:52Playman.
10:53And, uh, of course, none of us had ever been in the World Series or ever thought about anything
10:59like that.
10:59But he talked us into it, so we won the pennant.
11:02And, uh, how about that pennant race?
11:04Was there any—did you—wasn't going away, or was it—?
11:07No.
11:07It was, uh, fighting the Yankees.
11:09You know, we won it.
11:10I—I forgot.
11:12Uh, there was a pennant race in the National League.
11:18We had won the pennant about ten days before—eight or ten days before the season was over.
11:24And, uh, that was the year that, uh, the Giants were leaving the league, and they went
11:32into the last—to the last, uh, series against Brooklyn.
11:38And, uh, the Cardinals were—were four games behind.
11:43Well, they were—let's see, they were three games behind.
11:46And, uh, anyway, the Dodgers—the Giants went into Brooklyn, and Brooklyn beat them all
11:52four games.
11:54And, uh, it ended up with the, uh, the Cardinals, the Gas House Gang, winning the pennant.
12:00And, uh, we were upset about that, because, uh, we thought we were going to go to New York
12:04for the series and play on the pole ground, where we'd have gotten more money, you know.
12:08It's been a better series—more money series.
12:11Was—was that the year that Bill Terry made the comment, is Brooklyn still in the league?
12:14That's right.
12:15That's right.
12:15Probably caught to the pennant.
12:16Yeah, but it is.
12:17Caught to the pennant.
12:18That's right.
12:19And the Cardinals won it.
12:21And I—and I—I pitched a game in Chicago—I mean, in St. Louis.
12:27Uh, I beat them there.
12:29And, uh, beat Carlton.
12:31And then, uh, uh, I pitched—started the game, the last game.
12:35We went to a seven-game series.
12:37And, uh, then I started the seventh game against Dizzy Dean.
12:43And that's the one who shut us out.
12:44He beat us—they beat us 11 to nothing, I think it was.
12:47Was that the series that the Dean—his brother and him—and Dizzy both won two games?
12:52Yes.
12:52That's right.
12:53That's the year.
12:54And that was the—tell us about the Joe Medwick incident late in that game.
12:58Well, that's, uh, that had a lot—it made a lot out of it.
13:05But, uh, what happened was, it was a play of third base.
13:09And Medwick went in to Marvin Owens.
13:12And, uh, I guess Marvin thought he came in a little high.
13:17He hit his—he put one up and hit him in the shoulder in Torrey's shirt.
13:22And, uh, Marvin took the ball and started to stuff it down his neck, I guess.
13:27And, uh, they got into a little scuffle.
13:30Well, their suffering didn't mean anything.
13:32It's a good thing, because Medwick would have killed Marvin Owens.
13:34Marvin Owens wasn't very—he was a tall, skinny kid, you know, and he was not a fighter.
13:39But what had happened was that the people in Detroit were all really up for that—for that series.
13:50Detroit had been in a—in a—in a golden, uh, during the Depression.
13:56When I went there in 1933, people were lined up for soup lines, you know, trying to get something to
14:00eat.
14:01And the guys working on the lines and boards—the general boards are making, I think, 25 cents an hour.
14:08And—and the Tigers hadn't been doing very well the year before.
14:11Buck Harris had been there.
14:13And we finished 6th and 7th or something like that.
14:15But anyway, uh, when—when we won the pennant, why, they just—the town just absolutely went crazy.
14:24And it brought them up.
14:25They just woke up Detroit.
14:27And, uh, then when we played the Cardinals, why, we were—we were just supposed to win it.
14:36I just—I just assumed we were going to win the series.
14:38And so did Detroit.
14:41Well, we fooled around and got into the 7th game and got into the 7th game.
14:46And the—people had been waiting outside to buy a ticket for the 7th game.
14:51And some of them had been out there all night long, you know.
14:53And they had their breakfast with them and their lunches and so on.
14:57And cushions and everything else.
15:00And when they finally got in the ballpark, or at the ballgame, they were really—the excitement was really high.
15:08Well, when this incident took place at 3rd base, the fight started.
15:13Midwick, after the fight started, went out in left field.
15:16Well, the people were so upset at him because he got into—he was picking on our 3rd baseman
15:21that the people started throwing stuff at him that they brought out to eat.
15:25You know, bananas and sandwiches and—they were throwing everything at him.
15:30And so finally, Judge Landis was there, and he finally got out of his seat and came out,
15:36and he had to go out and take Midwick out of the game.
15:39But it was more of a—it's more—it was more of a psychological thing than anything else
15:45from the standpoint of the people.
15:47So the people were very let down.
15:49They were killing us.
15:50Well, they were killing us.
15:51They were frustrated.
15:52And everything went wrong.
15:54Everything went wrong in that thing.
15:56I left the ballgame in about the 3rd inning or 4th thing.
15:59It's nothing to nothing.
16:00I got the bases loaded.
16:02And two men out and fresh hit.
16:03Get a ball off of Greenberg's glove.
16:06Rolled down the side into a drainage ditch, into a little drainage—concrete drain.
16:15They were there, and Pete Fox came in and slipped and kicked the ball down to the dugout.
16:19Cochran finally ended up building the ball down for the dugout.
16:23And a 3-1 score.
16:25They took me out and put in Schoolboy, I think it was,
16:28and Tommy Breezes.
16:30And they got—I think they got 7 runs in that inning.
16:33And it just all broke apart.
16:35And then, of course, Kidd.
16:37He was in good shape that day, and we didn't do anything.
16:41We couldn't get the ball out of the infield.
16:43And he beat us, I think, 11 to nothing.
16:45So the people were really upset.
16:48Okay.
16:49Now, what kind of salary were you getting once you got into the majors?
16:53Well, I signed for $450 a month.
16:58And I—I really can't recall what I was making.
17:03I was probably making maybe $600 or something like that when the season started.
17:13I don't know, maybe it may be more than that.
17:18But maybe I was making—maybe I was making $1,000.
17:21I forgot.
17:22But about six weeks into the season, Mr. Navin gave me a $2,500 bonus.
17:34And then I got another $2,500 bonus later.
17:37And so I was probably making probably $8,000 or something like that.
17:47It wasn't bad for that.
17:47No, no.
17:49After the 35 season—well, I was making $11,000.
17:57And when the 35 season came around, Mr. Navin had died,
18:02and Mr. Briggs had taken over the thought lesson.
18:06And they sent me three contracts, and I sent them back on signs.
18:10And I was living in the winter.
18:12My wife and I lived in Lakeland, Florida.
18:15That's where we trained that winter.
18:18And so they sent me the three contracts, and I sent them back on signs.
18:24And I got a call from Mr. Briggs, the secretary,
18:30Shevlin, the name of Johnny Shevlin, and wanted to know if I'd come to Miami
18:35and talk to the old man, talk to Mr. Briggs about contracts.
18:38Well, he was a paraplegic, you know, and he hadn't walked in 10 years.
18:42So I went down to his house in Miami.
18:49Got out on the boulevard there.
18:51But anyway, I went in his office, and he said,
18:56Why didn't you sign those contracts, I think?
18:57And I said, Well, it wasn't enough money.
19:00He said, How much money do you want?
19:01And I said, I want $15,000.
19:04Well, he started swearing, and I thought he was going to walk out of the room.
19:09And I got him and started to leave.
19:10And he says, Where are you going?
19:12And I said, Well, you asked me a question.
19:14I said, You get all upset.
19:15I said, No, you should be sitting here.
19:17He said, Sit down.
19:18He called Joe Shevlin.
19:19He says, Give him a contract of $15,000.
19:23So I know that was the three.
19:25That's why they would get started in 1935.
19:27Right.
19:30Now, when you came in, you came in 33.
19:33Was Babe Ruth still around?
19:35Oh, yeah.
19:36Oh, yeah.
19:36Can you tell some of the players you've been?
19:39Well, in fact, the first, our first trip, when I joined the Tigers, we went.
19:46Right after I got there, we made the Eastern Swing.
19:50And the first, that was when Harris was there, Buckingham Harris.
19:57And so we go to New York, out of Detroit, and back he sent me to the bullpen, and we
20:05had a pitcher named Carl Fisher who was pitching, and he got in trouble in about the third inning, I
20:11think it was, or something like that, and they called me in for the bullpen, and I loosened up, and
20:18Ruth was the first hitter.
20:19Oh, my God.
20:20And I threw four pitches, the first hitter, in the Yankee Stadium, the first guy I faced in the Yankee
20:29Stadium, the first time they were in New York, the first time I ever saw a Yankee Stadium, I struck
20:34him out on four pitches, and then I got carried out, and then I finished up the ballgame.
20:41I got to know Dave pretty well, I used to play golf in Florida, we had a bunch of guys
20:46who played down here, Dizzy Dean, and Wes Ferrell, and Maggie Cochran, a bunch of them, we used to play
20:52golf in the wintertime, and Dave used to play with them all the time, we played with them about three
20:57years, that's us.
21:02Okay, so now next year, 1935, you earned your money, 18 wins, 7 losses, that's the percentage in the league.
21:10Yeah, that's right.
21:14And did you have a pennant race that year?
21:16Right.
21:16Was there a pennant race that year, or did Detroit have won?
21:19Well, we won the pennant and won the world championship that year.
21:23Yeah, well, I mean, but was it a close race?
21:24Was it a close pennant race?
21:25No, well, we were fighting the Yankees, and I forgot what we wanted.
21:30We won plenty of time, though.
21:32I think we won about a week to ten days before.
21:36All right.
21:37I don't remember exactly what it was.
21:39You wanted to tell us about the World Series that year?
21:42What?
21:42Tell us about the World Series 35.
21:45Yeah, well, we played the Cubs, and we opened up two games in Detroit, and I think we won one
21:58and lost one, if I'm not mistaken.
22:05But anyway, I opened up two games in Detroit, and then we went to Chicago.
22:11And I opened up in Chicago against Bill Lee, who had led the National League in pitching that year.
22:20And we both went to the, I think, seven innings.
22:24They were tied up two and two.
22:25We were both taken out for pinch hitters.
22:27And then we ended up winning the ball game in the twelfth inning, I think it was.
22:33But then I was scheduled to pitch the seventh game, and we went seven games.
22:37But we had won it in six games.
22:39Six games we've won it.
22:41So it didn't...
22:41Which was okay with you?
22:42No difference.
22:43Pardon?
22:43Which was okay with you.
22:44Well, it's quicker the better.
22:45Quick of the better.
22:47Right.
22:47Yeah.
22:49Now, if you were underhand pitch, was there any kind of...
22:52I guess, could there have been some criticism or something, in fact, that you were pitching
22:55so much differently than everybody else?
22:58Well, some of the hitters had problems with it.
23:00Ruth told me, as did Joe DiMaggio.
23:04They both told me that they had trouble picking up a pitch on the delivery.
23:10I had pretty good success with Joe, and he told me.
23:14We ended up being good friends, and talked to him quite a lot.
23:18And he said to me, he said, I just can't pick up your pitch.
23:21He said, I can't.
23:22He said, the way you're delivering it.
23:25He said, I can't pick it up.
23:26It's right on top of it.
23:28And Ruth had the same problem.
23:30He told me, I think one of the flame golf.
23:32And, of course, I pitched against him in 33, 34, and 35, I think.
23:37Then he quips.
23:38Oh, let's see.
23:39He went to Boston, 35, I think, 33 and 34.
23:46But some of the guys had trouble.
23:48Others didn't.
23:51Tommy Hendricks mentioned you.
23:54I interviewed him last year.
23:55Yeah, Tommy.
23:56Yeah.
23:58Tommy.
23:59I had trouble with Tommy.
24:02He could hit me at night, I think.
24:03He said that.
24:04He said he was the only Yankee that really had a ton of success against him.
24:07Yeah, that's right.
24:08Yeah, I had pretty good luck with the Yankees, but I couldn't get that hand recount statement.
24:13He had me.
24:15You had a fastball.
24:16What other pitches did you use?
24:18A curveball and a screwball.
24:20Yeah.
24:23Did you have any problem with the umpires?
24:26With umpires?
24:27No.
24:28No.
24:28We had good umpires.
24:30No, we had a lot of good umpires in the league.
24:32No, I never had trouble with the umpires.
24:34Who were some of the better umpires?
24:36Bill Summers, Bill McGowan, George Moriarty, Cal Hubbard.
24:42Uh, uh, Harriet Geiser was a pretty good one.
24:48Um, I can't remember the rest of them.
24:54Well, he said 1936, uh, 113 lost 16.
25:03Right.
25:07I did?
25:08Yep, yep.
25:10I didn't realize that.
25:12But next year you came back 17 and 9.
25:15That was in 30...
25:1837.
25:19Let's see, 36, that was the year that Cotland got hit in the head.
25:23Umpires.
25:23What umpires.
25:24He changed his career.
25:26Yeah, yeah.
25:28And then, uh...
25:28Who was the fellow that, uh, threw the pitch?
25:31Uh...
25:32Bob Hadley?
25:33Bob Hadley, yeah.
25:38And then, in 1938, you were 11 and 10.
25:42No.
25:45And 1939, you were with Forst.
25:49Okay.
25:50How did that happen?
25:50Well, Marvin Owen retired for a baseman, and they needed a third baseman, and Boston wanted some pitching, and they
26:04had Pinky Higgins as their third baseman, and they had a young guy coming up, Jim Tabor, coming up, and
26:14so they had two third baseman, so they traded me for Pinky.
26:18Pinky came to Detroit, and I went to Boston. That was a bad year for me.
26:24Oh, too bad. Nine and ten.
26:25Cronin, well, Cronin was the playing manager and played shortstop, and Joe was a very nervous type of guy. Joe
26:36was a nice person, but he had a habit of running out on the pitcher's mound and telling you how
26:42to pitch, and I found out that after a game, my first game,
26:48I guess the one, I found out that he was given the sign for the catcher, whether I should throw
26:53a fastball or a curveball or whatever pitch to make.
26:59That was completely different than I'd been pitching for six years, and Nicky Coughlin had this philosophy. He told us
27:05that, he said, look, I'm the manager and I'm the catcher, but he said,
27:12when you're on that pitcher's mound, he said, it's your ballgame. And he said, don't you ever throw a pitch
27:17to me if you don't want to throw. He said, you shake me off any time you want. If they
27:23hit it out of the ballpark, it's your fault. If they strike out, it's my fault.
27:28But he said, don't you ever throw something you don't want to throw. Well, I went over to Boston, and
27:34that's the way I worked. I've been there for six years, and I've been fairly successful.
27:41And I got over there in Boston, and Joe, he didn't mean anything by you. He didn't aim to get
27:51you upset. But he kept running in from the pitch, from the shortstop.
27:55And he'd run out and pick up the rosin bag, and he'd say, make him hit the fastball, make him
27:59hit the curveball, you know, keep the ball down to him, pick him inside, pick him outside. And about the
28:06third game, he had me absolutely crazy.
28:10And I was working the ballgame against the Yankees, against Gomez, about the third inning, and he'd been out there.
28:16Joe had been on the mound more than I was, practically.
28:19And when he came in this time, I was so upset. Joe would come running in. Before he got there,
28:25I said, here, Joe. I said, you take the ball, you pitch, and I'll play shortstop. How about that?
28:29I didn't pitch again for 27 days. I probably should have talked to Joe and, you know, kind of got
28:39things straightened out.
28:41He had the other pitchers the same way. Everybody but Lefty Grove. Lefty Grove, when Cronin started from the mound,
28:47Grove would walk from the dugout.
28:49He wouldn't even talk to him. But we had Jack Wilson and Fritz Austin Miller and some of the guys.
28:55I've seen Jack Wilson walk off the mound crying. He was a good pitcher. But Joe just couldn't help it.
29:02He thought he was just trying to help me, you know. He wanted to do this.
29:06So I had a bad season. I just didn't enjoy it. I was upset most of the year with him.
29:13I just couldn't walk on the mound and concentrate on what I was doing with him running back and forth
29:22on the mound.
29:23And I told him, I said, Joe, I said, God, just stay away from me. But he wouldn't do it.
29:28He'd just come it up.
29:29So when the season was over, when Mr. Yawkey called me and he said, Eldon, he said, we want to
29:34sign you up for next year before the season,
29:36before so we don't have to maybe any letters. And he and Eddie Collins, the gentleman, I said, well, Mr.
29:45Yawkey, I said, you don't want me here next year. I can't do you any good.
29:49I said, I'll just be wasting your money and my time. And I said, you just signed Joe Cronin to
29:55a five-year contract. And I said, I just can't take one.
30:00So I said, I just want to be truthful with you. I just, I'm not going to tell you that
30:05I'd like to play in Boston, but I can't play with Joe Cronin to the ballpark.
30:12And so I said, you can either trade me, sell me, or I'll quit. Well, I got a call from
30:18Fred Haney over in St. Louis.
30:20He was the manager of St. Louis Brown. Fred called me about three weeks later and he said, I just
30:25talked to Tom.
30:26He said, I have a, he said, I have a permission to talk to him. He said, would you pitch
30:30for me over here?
30:32I said, I'll pitch for anybody. But they pitch the ball game. They're usual when you pitch the ball game.
30:38So I'm, I went to St. Louis in 1940. And I won 16 ball games that year, I think.
30:45Right, 16 and 11.
30:46If you look up your records, you'll also find that the Boston left side finished in fourth place, eight games
30:53out of first.
30:55It might have made a difference.
30:56So it might have made a difference, if Joe had stayed off the pitch or something.
31:00Right.
31:00But he couldn't stay off.
31:02Going back to Boston a minute, did Ted Williams come up this year?
31:05That was his first year.
31:06And what was, uh, his first year up.
31:08What was your impression or the team's impression?
31:10Well, he was, uh, he'd just broken all the records in the American Association's history, I think, when he, when
31:18he came up there.
31:19He had, he had a wonderful year in Minneapolis. And, uh, so he came down there with, with a lot
31:27of, uh, statistics behind him.
31:30And he could hit that ball, which he could. And he was just a young kid. He was just, he
31:35just turned 20, I think.
31:37And, uh, he didn't smoke, didn't drink. And he was just a big kid. I could drink Coca-Cola and
31:43make a lot of noise.
31:44And swing that bat. And he was just a kid on the club. In fact, we just called him a
31:49kid. And he acted like a kid.
31:52He was, uh, kind of immature. But he could play baseball. He could hit.
31:59And surprisingly, he never got credit for it, but Ted was a good outfielder.
32:03One of the things that, about Ted was he took this long stride. And he also studied the hitters. Ted
32:13was a student of the game.
32:15Uh, in spring training, he drove about us pictures. That drove us all crazy. Because he was always asking about
32:23the opposing pictures.
32:25You know, what kind of a picture is running? You know, is it his fastball? Is it his curveball? What's
32:31his best picture?
32:32What about him? How about Teddy Lawrence, you know? How about Tommy Bridges? What about this curveball?
32:37You know, just going, he just drives you nuts, talking about it. And, uh, I think when the season opened,
32:43he knew a little about the pitching staff
32:44in the American League, and some of them have been in the league for years. But, uh, Ted was a
32:50student of the game, and he watched the hitters, uh, when they, when we played, uh, when the teams, when
32:59we played the opposing team.
33:02And he got himself in position. Nobody, no coach or anyone on the bench ever had to move Ted Williams
33:08in the outfield.
33:09He moved himself. That was something that he just, he, he studied the hitters, and he knew where to go.
33:18And as a result of that, he didn't get the credit for the kind of field he was.
33:24Uh, he didn't make the run and dive and catch when the guys were out of position in the outfield.
33:29They should have been, you know, farther to the right and then farther to the left.
33:33And in order to, either, they either got a hit, or else they made a dive and catch or save
33:39it.
33:40Well, it would have been Ted. Ted would have been standing there and caught it in his, in his, in
33:45his, in his love, very easily.
33:47But he, he wasn't given credit for his, uh, any other, excellent arm. Ted could throw very accurate.
33:53In fact, I think he started out as a pitcher, if I'm not mistaken. But Ted, Ted could throw very
33:58accurate on him.
33:59And never threw the wrong base. I never saw Ted Williams never throw the wrong base.
34:04He was like Debyebill. Debyebill never threw the wrong base.
34:09Okay. Back to the Browns, 1940. How did, they were one of the lesser teams in the league.
34:15I think when I went there, we were sixth place. Yep.
34:18Who were some of the players, uh?
34:20Well, George McQuinn at first base. Uh, uh, Don Hefner was second.
34:28Uh, Johnny Berardino came up at shortstop.
34:32And another shortstop that's been around Helen Strange.
34:35Been around Highland Cliff with the third base.
34:38We had Walters, I think.
34:41And, uh, uh, uh, Rip Radcliffe.
34:45Been around for a while.
34:49Joe Grace was an outfielder, and Bill didn't catch him as well.
34:52Bobby Swift was a catcher, and we had, uh, Rick Farrell was a catcher.
34:58Pitching?
34:59And we had Johnny Makeling.
35:01Another boy.
35:02Yeah, a good one.
35:03He didn't get the credit. He was a pretty good pitcher.
35:06Uh, they later got, I think it was in 41, they got Danny Dalehouse.
35:12Uh, Bob Moncrief, and, uh, Bob Harris, and, uh, I can't think of the other guys.
35:28Johnny Allen joined us from Cleveland.
35:31They came over.
35:31Oh.
35:33Okay, then in 1941, you were 14 wins and 15 losses.
35:38Oh.
35:39With the Browns.
35:41And, uh, 1942, 14 and 13.
35:45Uh-huh.
35:46Now, that was your last year in the majors.
35:49Yep.
35:50Uh, were you, were you involved with the service?
35:52I mean, did they draft?
35:53No.
35:54In the, in the winter of 1938, I stayed in Detroit.
35:58I didn't go down south.
36:00And, uh, I went to work for a company.
36:04I got to thinking I wasn't going back to medical school.
36:07And, uh, I didn't know what I was really going to do when, when I quit ducking the lion drives.
36:14And, uh, so I wanted to get into something, uh, in business.
36:21And, uh, so I got in.
36:24I went with a company called Midwest Bracing Company.
36:28They made fond of the braces.
36:30And, uh, that was 1938.
36:34And I worked on a plant in the wintertime to kind of learn the business.
36:39And, uh, in, uh, 1939, I started working in the engineering department.
36:49And in 1940, I started working on anti-aircraft guns.
36:56The, uh, war was warming up, you know.
37:00And, uh, our planes were all armed with 75 caliber machine guns.
37:07And the Germans were arming theirs with, with these 20 millimeter cannons.
37:12And, uh, also the Navy, the smallest anti-aircraft gun, they had the old philosophy of bombing,
37:20was when the bombs, when the plane was dropped bombs from a high altitude.
37:25And the Germans were doing this dive bombing, running into the planes and dropping the bombs.
37:30And we didn't have anything but a three-inch gun, which was hard to maneuver.
37:34So, they came up with a 40 millimeter gun, which was a Gatlin-type gun.
37:40And that took care of the dive bombers.
37:41That was a very, uh, uh, an attacking plane.
37:47That was devastating.
37:49It fired just like a machine gun.
37:52It was built like a Gatlin gun.
37:54And then we armed all of our planes, all of our fighters, with 20 millimeters.
37:59And I started on that program in the winter of 1940.
38:03And, uh, when the winter of 1942 rolled around, I, I was working with 27 gun arsenal over the United
38:13States and Canada.
38:14And, uh, so when the 42 season was over, I, I said, look, I wasn't eligible for the draft.
38:22I was married, had a child that was 32 years old.
38:24And, uh, so, uh, we were in the war effort right up to our ears.
38:31And so I stayed on the job.
38:34I told St. Louis I don't retire.
38:37I quit at the 42 season.
38:39And stayed, I stayed, worked on anti-aircraft all during the war.
38:45Very successful.
38:46Then, well, when the war was over, then I went into the business in Detroit with the company.
38:53And then I joined another company later and was regional manager for them.
38:59And then in 1953, like, uh, they, they wanted me to go down east to Westboro, Massachusetts to take over
39:07as general sales manager, which I did.
39:09And then I was vice president of marketing for several years.
39:13And then my last eight years in business before I retired, I was president of the company.
39:17The last eight years.
39:18We ended up as a second largest in the business.
39:21Did you still keep your home in Florida or are you?
39:24Now?
39:25No.
39:25During this period, did you still keep your home in Florida?
39:28No, we lived in Massachusetts for 24 years.
39:31That's where our plant was located.
39:33And, uh, we lived there, but we had plants in Canada and California and Denmark and Luxembourg and Sheldon and
39:40England.
39:40And, and, and I was, I was all over, but we lived in, in Westboro, Mass.
39:47That's where our headquarters were.
39:48Right.
39:50Um, throughout your baseball career, what would you call your biggest thrill in baseball?
39:56Oh, I don't know.
39:59It's, uh, I guess probably, the biggest thrill, I think, was when we won the pennant the first year.
40:10Not from an individual standpoint.
40:13Uh, that's more from a team standpoint, which was thrilling, because we were all a bunch of kids, you know,
40:22and we won that pennant and that was, that was really a, a big deal for the team.
40:29And, uh, I don't know whether, as an individual accomplishment, I, I guess maybe I'll put them, um, I don't
40:40know.
40:40Maybe.
40:42I think if the records show, I don't, September the 21st, I think, in 1934, I believe, I think I
40:51shut out the St. Louis Browns, two to nothing, and that's, I think, the pennant.
40:57That was one of them.
40:58I think that's, the record was short.
41:00That's either 34 or 35.
41:03And then, uh, of course, I, I beat the Cards with my first World Series game.
41:09Well, I beat the Cards over in St. Louis.
41:12And then, of course, they beat me the Sabbath game.
41:15It's hard to pick out one, one single thing.
41:21Do you keep in touch with any of the ex-players?
41:23Are there any still around there?
41:24Oh, yeah.
41:25I keep, uh, Ted Williams, I have, I'm very close to Ted.
41:29He lives over on, on the other coast of Florida.
41:32And I go and see him quite long.
41:35And we've been on two or three deals together.
41:38We went in New York together here last summer.
41:41And he came down for opening day of the Dodgers.
41:44And he came down here.
41:45Tommy Lazardo and I was with him.
41:48And then we flew him back home.
41:50And, uh, I'm close to Tommy Lazardo.
41:53And Tommy and I are very good friends.
41:54Of course, we never played together.
41:56But we just managed with his, uh, with the Dodgers.
41:59And, uh, at zero beats, I've got to clean with him.
42:03But there's only, I keep in touch with the only ones that are alive in our 35 World Series.
42:08Well, in the 35 World Series, they're champions.
42:11There are only four of us alive.
42:14And, uh...
42:14Who else is that?
42:15Well, we had a left-handed pitcher, a relief pitcher, named Hodson.
42:19Chief Hodson.
42:20He's out in Kansas.
42:21He's in a rest home.
42:23And, uh, he weighs about 135 pounds now.
42:27And he has Alzheimer's disease.
42:29And, uh, Billy Rogel was our shortstop.
42:32He's in Detroit.
42:33And he's in a rest home.
42:35He's 95.
42:37Ray Hayworth is in North Carolina.
42:39And I keep in touch with, with Ray and Billy by telephone.
42:44And, uh, Ray was my first catcher in the Major League.
42:47And, uh, he's, uh, he's in a rest home.
42:51And he's 90, he's 96.
42:53And the interesting thing about Ray Hayworth, his grandson is J.D. Hayworth,
42:59who is the United States Representative from the 6th District of, uh, Arizona.
43:04And he's in Washington.
43:06He's a great guy.
43:07J.D. Hayworth is huge.
43:09If you know anything about politics for you, you'll be hearing a lot about him.
43:15Okay.
43:15He's great.
43:16Well, he's the Ray Hayworth grandson.
43:18Okay.
43:19Um, how is baseball different today than what you played in the Major League?
43:25Oh, it's made a lot of, there's been a lot of changes made.
43:28I think the biggest change that I see is probably in the way the pitchers are handled.
43:35Um, I won, I think, 130 ball games.
43:40Something like that.
43:41131, I think, counting the World Series.
43:43And I pitched, uh, I think about 126, 127 complete ball games.
43:49And that's something that has changed completely.
43:53Uh, today, they, uh, is that right?
43:58I had 130 on the record, but not the World Series game.
44:02Well, the World Series game.
44:03Well, anyway.
44:04He's close enough.
44:05Uh, yeah, anyway.
44:06Uh, that's something that is, uh, sort of in the past right now.
44:12Uh, Oral Hershey is a good friend of mine.
44:14I talked to Oral here a couple years ago.
44:18He asked me how many complete games I pitched.
44:21And I told him.
44:21He said, thank God.
44:24He said, I wouldn't win that money if I picked sort of 60 years old.
44:28He said, I couldn't pick that many complete games.
44:30The management, the handling of the pitching staff has changed a lot.
44:34Because, uh, Mr. Navin, when I came up with the Tigers, Mr. Navin said, look.
44:39He said, we're bringing you up here as a starting pitcher.
44:41And he said, uh, when you walk out on that mountain, he said, I expect you to pitch the entire
44:47ball game.
44:48He said, well, nine innings, ten innings, or what?
44:50He said, I don't have much money.
44:52He said, I can't afford to pay you to start a game and have three other guys pay them to
44:57finish it.
44:58So, he said, when you go out there, I want you to pitch a nine innings.
45:02That was his philosophy.
45:04That was my philosophy.
45:05So, I tried my best last time.
45:08I didn't finish.
45:09But is it necessarily a good thing or a bad thing?
45:13Because I can remember when Whitey Ford used to be criticized for not completing the game.
45:18He would leave the loop right now if he were pitching his toe of it.
45:21I was just wondering, I mean, is that really a good thing or bad thing?
45:25I mean, did it make your arms more sore to have to pitch those innings, or?
45:29No.
45:29I never had a sore arm in my life.
45:31A lap to grow was probably the epitome of pitchers that prove that's throwing but not hurt your arm.
45:43You keep that arm in shape, of course.
45:46Most important thing, keep your legs in shape.
45:49This is what I think is wrong today.
45:51One of the big things is these kids are having these pulled groins.
45:55I saw something the other day.
45:56This young, her call, I think it is.
45:58A young shark.
45:59Yes, yes, yes.
46:00The brave.
46:01The brave.
46:02Nineteen years.
46:42The brave.
46:44Car in a safe way to reach out to where you are.
46:47Twentyごics, which we know there's gotta be.
46:51There's a lot more to get them out of our class.
46:53You can't tell us you know the gold много on Earth.
46:53There doesn't matter who I can find these names.
46:53In the dark green, I'll be sure you can find them.
46:55to see it yes i have a copy of it copy yes the the girl that produced that oh i
47:00had interviews
47:01about two hour interview with the group that made that film they came down to zero b to bring back
47:07some memories oh yeah yeah yeah i played hank for six years great guy very close to him i know
47:16his
47:16dad and mother and his brother jewel and his sister and i know steve his son and greenberg
47:21have been good friends of ours dad mother of great people hank was a wonderful person i uh
47:29i think they did a good job on that film they uh they kind of stressed i think just a
47:36little bit
47:36too much about the ethnic end of us because hank was never on our ballpark hank was one of us
47:47we
47:47just like brothers right there i had a brother i wouldn't love any more than i did hank greenberg
47:53because he was just a great guy and we were all that way you know and we never ever had
47:59anything
48:00like this ever come up i never heard the stand when we were in detroit hank was a very popular
48:05man
48:05of course he was a great ball player with me you know beside himself hank was a real gentleman and
48:13uh everybody loved hank and i don't think i ever heard anyone in detroit ever say a detrimental
48:19word about hank greenberg and i think the the the film played it up just a little bit too strong
48:27you know uh steve sent me up uh some clippings from after they showed it in new york
48:38and one of them said that uh hank greenberg played for himself and for the team and for the jewish
48:49people
48:51and i uh maybe he did maybe he did but uh when he was playing why uh that was he
49:01was just
49:03he didn't think no more than i thought it was my background in german that i that i played for
49:08the german people you know but uh i know that on one occasion i forgot what holiday it was
49:17i was pitching against boston and it was uh i said i wasn't what it was question whether hank was
49:24going to play or not he's a russian young kipro russian shark whatever it was i don't know what year
49:28it
49:28was anyway uh he decided to play it was 35 and uh he didn't take batting practice but i remember
49:37that
49:37day very well because i pitched a ball game against boston i shot him out we beat him two to
49:43nothing
49:43hang greenberg had two home runs i remember that very well his son is a baseball official isn't he
49:53well he was his assistant commissioner but uh he's out of it now he's been uh in some kind tv
49:59work
50:01done very well understood now i understand you had a part to play in the last game
50:07at tiger stadium last year yes tell us about it well uh i was invited up along with 65 other
50:15tigers
50:16and uh it was uh it was the closing of the stadium and uh they had the closing ceremony was
50:27they took
50:28the flag from center field and all the players lined up from center field to home plate and uh they
50:37passed
50:38the flag one from the other they took the flag down for the last time and they passed the home
50:43plate
50:44and i was the last one to receive it and then uh i gave a little talk they asked to
50:50get a talk
50:51was it planned that he would be the last one yes and then i presented the flag to brad
50:57osmond who was the captain of the tiger this year's tiger and catcher and uh i told him that
51:06well my speech was ended up that he was to keep the flag until we opened up the new ballpark
51:13the america park and so that was the last thing that took place and uh after my speech then he
51:23gave a
51:23little talk and then uh ernie harwell come on and i closed the park and this year they and when
51:32they
51:32opened this year they got a tail call and told me when they come up and they asked um myself
51:39and uh
51:45uh uh k-line and uh a couple more there's only four of them were there and they asked me
52:01if i would
52:03uh go to center field and they passed the flag back the others the 65 weren't there but they took
52:12the
52:12currently little egg and uh uh all the politicians in detroit and all of them and uh it passed to
52:21the
52:21commissioner and then the commissioner gave it to brad and then they raised the flag
52:26uh yeah thanks thanks on that help okay well i want to thank you very much it's been very enlightening
52:35and thank you joy talking to you thanks a lot and i'm glad the fellas they remember well it's been
52:41a long
52:41long time some of those things i thought i even thought about
53:19been a long time some of those things i thought about being a long time some of those things i
53:23thought about
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