- 12 minutes ago
Taylor Swift is among the most powerful artists of her generation — and her fans, the Swifties, are among the most powerful fandoms. On this week's episode of Billboard On the Record, host Kristin Robinson explores the nature and business of superfandom with Olivia Levin, the New York Times best-selling author and founder of social media page @swiftiesforeternity. Levin shares how she turned her page into a six-figure income, spanning ticketing, social media management, writing and brand deals. She also explains why Taylor Swift continues to inspire such loyalty with her listeners, why her re-recordings changed the game and what she thinks the music business gets wrong about superfans like her.
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00:00:00The biggest buzzword that I've been hearing is superfans.
00:00:02You wrote the book on the Taylor Swift fandom.
00:00:04Yeah.
00:00:05What do you think the music business get wrong about being a superfan?
00:00:10Some people try to sell so much to superfans rather than make them a part of what the artist is
00:00:16doing.
00:00:17And that is something Taylor gets right every single time.
00:00:20You've managed to make Swifties for Eternity into this business as a fan,
00:00:25where you're running an HQ account for another artist.
00:00:28Yeah.
00:00:28You're still doing Swifties for Eternity and doing brand deals and stuff like that for that.
00:00:31And then ticketing.
00:00:32Is there a ballpark of how much you've been able to make?
00:00:35Six figures.
00:00:36What are some ways that you've seen Taylor Swift really treat her fans right
00:00:39that have led to her having such a long-lasting fandom?
00:00:43She always made time to connect with them online but also in person.
00:00:48She's famously known to have done a 13-hour meet-and-greet
00:00:50where she stood for 13 hours and she took no breaks
00:00:53because the fans weren't getting any breaks.
00:00:59Taylor Swift is among the most impactful artists of her generation.
00:01:03And her fans, the Swifties, may be music's most impactful fandom.
00:01:07I'm not just saying that for flattery.
00:01:09I do think that it is undeniable that not only is Taylor Swift a massive artist
00:01:14with a sprawling catalog of hits, often written all by herself,
00:01:18she also has had a sizable impact on the music business in a number of ways.
00:01:22But just one example is, let's be honest,
00:01:25how many people outside the music industry knew or cared about catalog sales until her.
00:01:31Today, I'm joined by Olivia Levin, a Taylor Swift superfan
00:01:34and the founder of the social media account Swifties for Eternity,
00:01:37which boasts over 630,000 followers on Instagram.
00:01:41I was dying to have Olivia on the podcast today
00:01:44because she's a fan who's managed to turn her passion for a musician
00:01:47into a full-time six-figure career spanning brand partnerships,
00:01:52social media management, book sales, and even a ticketing subscription business.
00:01:57In a time when the music business's favorite word is superfan,
00:02:01I thought that we should have one on the show
00:02:02and actually understand the power that they hold.
00:02:05Olivia Levin, thank you so much for coming to On The Record.
00:02:07Thanks for being here.
00:02:08Thank you for having me.
00:02:09I'm so excited.
00:02:09I'm very excited to have you because we have not yet had a fan on this show.
00:02:14And I think fans are inarguably the most important part of the music industry
00:02:18because without them, there isn't a music industry.
00:02:21Yep.
00:02:21So I think this is going to be really instructive for a lot of people in our audience.
00:02:25We have a lot of fans that listen to the show
00:02:27that want to just know a little bit more about what's happening behind the curtain of the music industry.
00:02:31Yeah.
00:02:31We also have a lot of executives.
00:02:33So I'm excited for this conversation.
00:02:36And who better to have it with than you?
00:02:38Okay, so you have been running Swifties for Eternity,
00:02:41one of the biggest Taylor Swift fan accounts.
00:02:42Is it the biggest?
00:02:43Do you actually know?
00:02:43I think it's the biggest one, I think, that has a face to it.
00:02:47You know, there's maybe a faceless account that has more.
00:02:50Well, so yeah, Swifties for Eternity has been running since you were, what, 13 years old?
00:02:54Around then, yeah.
00:02:55Okay.
00:02:55And it first started on Tumblr, but would you say,
00:02:58it feels like Instagram is probably the primary one now?
00:03:00Oh, yeah, 100%.
00:03:01It has been for a while.
00:03:03Yeah.
00:03:03I started Tumblr first, and then shortly after, I started the Instagram account.
00:03:08And I think I only started on Tumblr because that's where Taylor Swift was hanging out.
00:03:12Fair enough.
00:03:13Fair enough.
00:03:13Also, Tumblr was a moment.
00:03:15It was really important at the time.
00:03:17It really was.
00:03:17But I don't know anyone who, I mean, I'm sure there are still people who use it,
00:03:22but I don't personally know anyone who does.
00:03:24Yeah.
00:03:24I mean, I don't think I've used it since high school.
00:03:27But yeah, I don't know.
00:03:28But also, you wrote the book on the Taylor Swift fandom.
00:03:31We have it right here, The Story of Us.
00:03:34The Story of Us.
00:03:34Okay, so when did it come out?
00:03:35What was the release date?
00:03:36Came out April 14th, this past April 14th.
00:03:39So it's only been a month and a half of it being out.
00:03:42But New York Times bestseller.
00:03:44New York Times bestseller.
00:03:45I can't believe that's real.
00:03:47That is wild.
00:03:48Okay, let's get into the fan conversation.
00:03:51So one of the things that I hear in the music industry a lot,
00:03:54like for the last five years,
00:03:55the biggest buzzword that I've been hearing is super fans.
00:03:58The music industry is always trying to find new ways to monetize the super fan
00:04:03or try to engage the super fan more.
00:04:06And you are a super fan.
00:04:08Yeah.
00:04:08A super fan of Taylor Swift.
00:04:09And I'm wondering, what do you think you see the music business
00:04:12get wrong about being a super fan?
00:04:15I think, and we were just talking about this before the podcast,
00:04:18but I think sometimes the word super fan has a negative connotation,
00:04:23you know, comes with like a bad reputation.
00:04:25Like they look down on super fans when I think they shouldn't,
00:04:30because without us, then the artists would be nothing, you know?
00:04:35What do they get wrong?
00:04:37I think some people try to sell so much to super fans
00:04:41rather than make them a part of what the artist is doing.
00:04:45And that in itself makes fans, super fans want to buy things more
00:04:51than just being sold to like just anybody.
00:04:54You could be anybody, you know?
00:04:55Super fans want to feel like they are a part of the journey.
00:04:58And that is something Taylor gets right every single time
00:05:01she announces something and has another release with all the Easter eggs.
00:05:05It's, we're a part of the journey.
00:05:07We're not just being sold to.
00:05:08Yeah.
00:05:09I'm wondering if you can go a little bit deeper into that.
00:05:11But what are some ways that you've seen Taylor Swift really treat her fans right
00:05:15that have led to her having such like a long lasting fandom?
00:05:19Yeah.
00:05:19I mean, I think from the very beginning of her career,
00:05:22even when she had like, you know, a handful of super fans,
00:05:25number one, she always made time to connect with them online,
00:05:29but also in person.
00:05:31So she's famously known to have done a 13 hour meet and greet
00:05:35where she stood for 13 hours and she took no breaks
00:05:38because the fans weren't getting any breaks.
00:05:40And the line was around the building.
00:05:42And she was like, I want to meet every person who came.
00:05:43So I think things like that.
00:05:46And then I think with all the Easter eggs,
00:05:49she's been doing it from the beginning of her career,
00:05:51but she has continued to do it up until now.
00:05:54And I think she forever will do it.
00:05:56And it just works because fans, like I said,
00:06:00love to feel like they're a part of the release.
00:06:02And I think she has just as much fun as we do
00:06:05finding all the Easter eggs and coming up with ridiculous theories.
00:06:09We have come up with some that have been right,
00:06:12but some that have been way off.
00:06:15And I think it's probably just as much fun for her
00:06:16to watch all of it happening as it is for us to do that as a community.
00:06:22And that's another piece of it.
00:06:23It brings the fandom together.
00:06:26And then we feel like we're a part of something bigger than ourselves,
00:06:29not just with Taylor, but with all these millions of people.
00:06:32We're just as interested and curious about the Easter eggs
00:06:35and the new releases as everyone else.
00:06:39So how often do you think Taylor Swift is lurking in the background
00:06:42watching people try to sleuth things out?
00:06:44I think it probably used to be more.
00:06:47Back in the day, it was every day.
00:06:48I mean, it was on Tumblr.
00:06:50Those days, she was on there almost every day,
00:06:53lurking and reblogging things
00:06:55and coming up with inside jokes with the fandom,
00:06:58which are all documented in the story of us.
00:07:01Nowadays, I think she stays more so away from social media.
00:07:06I think, you know, her family and friends send her things
00:07:08and she probably sees things that way.
00:07:10I do think she probably, if I had to guess,
00:07:14has her team go through all the theories and everything
00:07:17the fans are constantly talking about
00:07:19and gives her like a one pager every day.
00:07:23Like, this is what your fans are talking about.
00:07:24And that would be such a good way to do it
00:07:27so that she doesn't have to endure
00:07:28the toxic part of social media.
00:07:31Because, you know, she's been through a lot on there.
00:07:33I honestly think that would be the best way
00:07:35to preserve your sanity.
00:07:36I don't know how any famous person
00:07:38is able to be on social media.
00:07:40I don't even have a lot of followers
00:07:41and it stresses me out to be on social media.
00:07:43Like, I can't even imagine millions and millions of people
00:07:45discussing your every move.
00:07:47Even if the vast majority of it is positive,
00:07:51seeing the level of negativity
00:07:53that can get passed around
00:07:54is just not good for anyone's confidence.
00:07:56And as an artist, I really do think
00:07:58that one of the key things
00:08:00that you have to have as an artist
00:08:01is just pure confidence and trust in your vision.
00:08:04Yeah.
00:08:04And that's just the perfect way to knock yourself down.
00:08:06Yeah.
00:08:07And that's what she kind of said
00:08:08in one of her recent speeches.
00:08:10Oh, yeah.
00:08:10She said, like, don't let anyone,
00:08:12you know, distract you from the reason
00:08:15you do this in the first place
00:08:16and focus on your craft, everything else,
00:08:19social media, all that toxic stuff.
00:08:20It's just a distraction and it doesn't matter.
00:08:23But I do think it's so cool
00:08:25that despite leaving social media a bit more,
00:08:28she has still found ways to be so in touch
00:08:31with what's going on in the fandom.
00:08:33And I never feel like she's above it.
00:08:36You know, she's still in it with us,
00:08:37even if she's not liking our posts every day
00:08:39like she used to.
00:08:40Yeah.
00:08:40Well, OK, so you went to one of the secret sessions.
00:08:43That's where you first met her.
00:08:44Yeah.
00:08:44Right.
00:08:45OK, so for those who might not know what that is,
00:08:48can you describe a secret session?
00:08:49Basically, Taylor did it for a few album cycles
00:08:52and she would have fans come to her house
00:08:56about three, four weeks before the album release.
00:09:00And then she would go through each song
00:09:01and tell the fans what each song was about
00:09:05and the writing process, all of that.
00:09:08And we would get to listen to the album,
00:09:10you know, way before it came out.
00:09:12And it was just a very intimate way
00:09:14for her to connect with us
00:09:16and us with each other, you know,
00:09:19like I ran into people there
00:09:20that I still talk to today.
00:09:23So so special.
00:09:24Well, how did how did they even pick the fans?
00:09:27So Taylor found me on Tumblr.
00:09:30She followed me on Tumblr already.
00:09:32And then one day I got a DM from her on Instagram
00:09:36and because I had the same username on both
00:09:38and she just sent me a smiley face.
00:09:41And that was like her way of Easter egging.
00:09:43Like, you don't know what's coming.
00:09:45And then fast forward, like a week,
00:09:47I was at her house.
00:09:48That is wild.
00:09:50So crazy.
00:09:50Yeah, I bet that was so fun.
00:09:52I mean, especially since you were like,
00:09:53what, 14 by this point or something?
00:09:5517 when I met her.
00:09:5617.
00:09:57I was a senior in high school.
00:09:58Still like that.
00:09:59That's a really big deal.
00:10:00And I do think those are the moments,
00:10:02even if you can't do it for a ton of fans,
00:10:04you're never going to forget that experience.
00:10:06And then you're going to evangelize that experience
00:10:08to all the fans that you meet moving forward to.
00:10:11100%.
00:10:11And a lot of other artists now do stuff like that.
00:10:14I mean, she's a trailblazer.
00:10:16She has led the way for so many artists.
00:10:20Yeah.
00:10:20I mean, okay, correct me if I'm wrong.
00:10:22I feel like Taylor Nation was one of the first HQ accounts.
00:10:24Yeah.
00:10:25If not the first.
00:10:26Probably the first.
00:10:27Yeah.
00:10:27I feel like that is another example of something that she did
00:10:30that is now being, it's not just kind of the norm.
00:10:33Like we were just talking before.
00:10:36So you run the Kid Leroy HQ account.
00:10:38But yeah, like everyone kind of is expected to have that.
00:10:41And I actually love an HQ account.
00:10:43I do too.
00:10:44I think it's great.
00:10:45If you're, you know, even if you're not super fan tier,
00:10:48but you're a big fan of someone
00:10:50and you want more than what they post on social media.
00:10:54I mean, a lot of famous people don't go on socials much anymore
00:10:57and don't post that often.
00:10:59I miss like the glory days of Twitter
00:11:01where people would be messy as hell on Twitter.
00:11:03I do too.
00:11:04I wish that people would be a little bit more off the cuff,
00:11:07but I understand why not.
00:11:08I know.
00:11:09And I wouldn't advise them if I was working with them to do that.
00:11:11But like, I do kind of miss the mess a little bit.
00:11:14But yeah, the HQ account,
00:11:15like if anyone is not familiar with an HQ account,
00:11:17it's just a place where you can actually post
00:11:19like kind of official things like tour updates
00:11:22and stuff like that.
00:11:22Inclusive content, BTS.
00:11:25Yeah.
00:11:26Okay.
00:11:26So you've managed to make Swifties for Eternity
00:11:30into this business as a fan
00:11:32where you're running an HQ account for another artist.
00:11:35You're still doing Swifties for Eternity
00:11:36and doing brand deals and stuff like that for that.
00:11:38And then ticketing,
00:11:39which we'll get into later in the conversation.
00:11:41But I'm wondering,
00:11:43I feel like I've noticed
00:11:45that this generation that's come up in the music industry,
00:11:49kind of 20 somethings right now.
00:11:50There's a lot of fans that are actually entering
00:11:53the actual music industry
00:11:54and starting to work on artists' real social teams.
00:11:56Have you been experiencing that too?
00:11:58Do you have a lot of friends in kind of fan spaces
00:12:01that are also moving in?
00:12:02Okay.
00:12:03So many.
00:12:03Even a girl I work with on,
00:12:05who's on the label side of the Kid Leroy,
00:12:08grew up as a super fan of an artist.
00:12:10And then now she works in music.
00:12:12I know so many people and I love it.
00:12:15I don't think there's anyone better to do the job
00:12:18than people who understand what it's like to be a fan.
00:12:22So if you're, you know,
00:12:24if you've never been a fan of someone
00:12:26or never been a hardcore fan of someone
00:12:28and you're hired to essentially communicate
00:12:32to the artist that you're working with's fandom,
00:12:36how are you going to do it
00:12:37if you don't understand why they're big fans, you know?
00:12:41So I love it.
00:12:43The fan to music industry pipeline is so great.
00:12:47It's real and it's happening.
00:12:48Like one of my favorite examples of this,
00:12:50I don't know if you've met the girls who created FanMaid.
00:12:53Oh, I actually have.
00:12:55Well, I haven't met them in person,
00:12:56but I had a call with Olivia a couple of years ago.
00:12:59I was going to bring up Olivia
00:13:00because she was a Miley Cyrus super fan
00:13:02and now she works with Miley.
00:13:03Or at least last time I checked,
00:13:05FanMaid was working with Miley.
00:13:06So it's just great to see those stories
00:13:09because I do think it's great hands-on experience.
00:13:11And I think if there's any young people
00:13:13who are listening to this podcast,
00:13:14if you can't seem to get yourself to LA or New York
00:13:17and get into these big music industry internship type things,
00:13:20there are so many ways that you can still participate in music
00:13:23that don't require any barriers to entry.
00:13:25Anyone can sign up to Instagram and make a second account
00:13:28and start running a fan page and see where it takes them.
00:13:31And that ends up being good real world experience.
00:13:34Absolutely.
00:13:34But yeah, I'm wondering if there was any stigma
00:13:37that you faced though,
00:13:38as you're trying to build this into a business,
00:13:40was anyone ever discouraging
00:13:42or even like maybe fearful
00:13:44that you would fangirl too hard over an artist
00:13:46or anything like that?
00:13:48So when I did an internship in PR,
00:13:50when I was in college,
00:13:51I was told to delete my fan account
00:13:54because if you're in entertainment, music,
00:13:57it's not a good look.
00:13:59And I'm so happy I didn't listen.
00:14:01Thank God.
00:14:01I mean, none of my book wouldn't exist.
00:14:04Like none of this would exist.
00:14:05So I was too passionate about it to delete it for any job.
00:14:09Yeah.
00:14:09Also, it's an internship.
00:14:11It's going to end.
00:14:11It's an internship.
00:14:12Yeah.
00:14:12You're offering me a real job with a real check, maybe.
00:14:15Even then I'm like,
00:14:16I shouldn't have to give up something that I do on the side for fun
00:14:19that I'm passionate about for a career in music.
00:14:24And I wasn't even sure that I wanted to be in music.
00:14:27I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
00:14:30But yeah, I kind of just figured it out.
00:14:32But I would never have deleted that account.
00:14:35I briefly had a stint in the One Direction fandom
00:14:38back in the day.
00:14:39Like right when they were starting to take off,
00:14:41I feel like I was in middle school at the time.
00:14:43There was like a switch flipped.
00:14:46I think it was right when like
00:14:47What Makes You Beautiful came out.
00:14:49And every girl at my middle school was so obsessed with them
00:14:52that it became a thing where kind of everyone
00:14:55started listening to them and talking about them.
00:14:57every day at lunch or in between classes.
00:14:59And it was like, it was a real social phenomenon.
00:15:02And I remember at that time,
00:15:04almost starting to feel pressure at a certain point
00:15:06to make sure I knew everything
00:15:08and that I could prove that I was a true fan.
00:15:11How do you see social dynamics play out within a fandom?
00:15:14Do you ever see any competitiveness
00:15:16or territorial behavior between fans?
00:15:21So growing up when I was a teenager,
00:15:23a hundred percent within the fandom,
00:15:27there was always like competition.
00:15:28Who's the better fan?
00:15:29Who's been a fan longer?
00:15:30All that.
00:15:32Who has all the merch.
00:15:33Back then it was more so,
00:15:35how many times can you meet Taylor?
00:15:37How many times can you get her attention?
00:15:38There were fans.
00:15:41There was beef in the fandom
00:15:42because there were certain fans
00:15:43that Taylor interacted with very often.
00:15:45So they were like the favorites.
00:15:47And so everyone else would get jealous
00:15:49and start bullying those people.
00:15:51It was a whole thing.
00:15:53And there was actually this one time,
00:15:54and I write about it in the book,
00:15:56where fans were fighting
00:15:58and Taylor was very in tune with what was happening
00:16:01and posted a photo of her wearing gloves.
00:16:05And one said hate and one said love.
00:16:07And in the caption, she wrote,
00:16:09choose the right one.
00:16:13And that was her being mother
00:16:14and like telling her fandom,
00:16:17like behave, stop being assholes to each other.
00:16:20So there was a little of that.
00:16:22I feel like with the Aerosaur and everything,
00:16:24I see less of that competition and stuff
00:16:27because one, you know,
00:16:29fans aren't meeting Taylor as often
00:16:30as they were back then.
00:16:32But also there are so many new fans
00:16:34and I love to welcome new fans.
00:16:36I'm like, I don't care if you became a fan yesterday
00:16:38or 20 years ago.
00:16:40You know, I came in,
00:16:42I wasn't at the very beginning.
00:16:43I was six when debut came out.
00:16:45So I came into it in like 2013.
00:16:48So I'm not like technically an OG.
00:16:50I don't think there should be this
00:16:53like ranking system.
00:16:55Yeah.
00:16:55Or status that comes with,
00:16:57oh, I've been a fan for longer than you have.
00:17:00So I have seen it die down with the Aerosaur
00:17:02and all the influx of new fans.
00:17:05I think that's cool
00:17:06because I actually would have guessed
00:17:07that with the Aerosaur and new fans,
00:17:09there would be kind of a us versus them,
00:17:11the original fans versus the post-Eras tour fans.
00:17:15But it's fun to hear that.
00:17:16Yeah.
00:17:16I think Swifties, the OGs,
00:17:18were really happy to see her success
00:17:20and how many people came around
00:17:21to being a Swifty during the Aerosaur.
00:17:23So I definitely see less of it.
00:17:25I mean, I see the occasional tweets
00:17:27that are like this person.
00:17:29I will say there's a stigma with TikTok Swifties.
00:17:33Oh.
00:17:33So on Twitter, I see a lot of hate
00:17:35toward the TikTok Swifties.
00:17:37Yeah, I don't know.
00:17:38I don't know why.
00:17:39I think they maybe say weird things sometimes on TikTok,
00:17:42but like everybody on social media says weird things.
00:17:45Sometimes people take it too far.
00:17:46Yeah.
00:17:46I do think that sometimes you just have to remember
00:17:49that some of these fans are 13.
00:17:52Like if you see someone getting defensive,
00:17:54it's very possible that that's one of the young ones
00:17:56that is just trying to prove themselves
00:17:57and they're kind of in that middle school mindset.
00:17:59Yeah.
00:17:59As an adult, it's fine.
00:18:02Whereas a lot of us have grown up with her
00:18:04and are now adults.
00:18:05So we had that phase back in the day,
00:18:07but yeah, now there's a new wave of them.
00:18:09Yeah.
00:18:10Yeah.
00:18:10Well, okay.
00:18:11So you mentioned that, you know,
00:18:13people have a little bit less access to Taylor
00:18:15than they used to.
00:18:16She's just so famous at this point.
00:18:17She also has gotten to a place in her career
00:18:19where she doesn't need to do as much promo as she used to.
00:18:23I've thought about that a lot,
00:18:25especially when I was reading in your book about,
00:18:27I believe the year was 2016 when she went away.
00:18:30She went dark for a year.
00:18:31Yeah.
00:18:32I thought about that because, you know,
00:18:34if you're running a fan account,
00:18:36it must be really hard to keep a page going
00:18:39when your artist is off cycle or when they decide,
00:18:42hey, I'm going to step back for maybe even a few years,
00:18:44if not forever.
00:18:47You know, there's always the possibility that
00:18:49in the future, Taylor Swift could step away
00:18:52because she wants to have kids
00:18:53or she just kind of wants to live her private life.
00:18:55And I'm wondering how do you think
00:18:57that would impact the fandom
00:18:58and how does a fandom respond
00:18:59when there are those gaps?
00:19:01Well, I think we've been really lucky with Taylor
00:19:03because she's always working
00:19:05and that's something I admire about her so much.
00:19:07Her work ethic is insane.
00:19:08It's where,
00:19:10it's why she's gotten to where she is today.
00:19:12I don't think she's ever going to go anywhere.
00:19:14Like, yeah,
00:19:15maybe we won't see paparazzi pictures of her as much,
00:19:19but even she said in a recent interview
00:19:21in the fall that she doesn't like
00:19:24when people are like,
00:19:25oh, you're going to go away,
00:19:26get married,
00:19:26have kids and people aren't going to hear from you anywhere.
00:19:29She's like, no,
00:19:30like, this is my job.
00:19:30It's my passion.
00:19:31Like, I'm going to keep doing it.
00:19:33So I don't really worry about that.
00:19:35But there are some slower times in the fandom
00:19:38and I don't know,
00:19:39I post every day pretty much,
00:19:41even when she's off cycle
00:19:42and there's not much to post about.
00:19:44There's always things to reminisce about
00:19:47or like laugh about.
00:19:49So I just,
00:19:50my passion comes in
00:19:51where I love being a glue in the community
00:19:54and bringing people together,
00:19:55even when she's away and busy
00:19:58and living her life.
00:19:59So I try to always find things to post about
00:20:03where people can come together
00:20:04and get that one dose of joy every day,
00:20:07even if there's not much going on.
00:20:09Yeah.
00:20:10I mean,
00:20:10I guess you can always go back into the archive.
00:20:12She's been around long enough
00:20:13that there's plenty of content
00:20:14to remind people about.
00:20:16Like one year ago today,
00:20:17this happened, you know?
00:20:18Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:20:18Classic.
00:20:19Like, this is what we do in,
00:20:20you know,
00:20:21in my like journalism realm too,
00:20:23is like,
00:20:23okay, there's an anniversary,
00:20:24perfect time to revive a story
00:20:26that we loved from 10 years ago
00:20:27or something.
00:20:28So true.
00:20:28Yeah.
00:20:29So, I mean,
00:20:30and yeah,
00:20:30I think the debut album is
00:20:33turning 20 this year, right?
00:20:34Yeah.
00:20:34Yeah.
00:20:35So I'm clutching my pearls
00:20:37for a debut Taylor's version.
00:20:39I know.
00:20:40Okay.
00:20:40So that's actually something
00:20:41I was going to ask you about
00:20:42because you posted about that recently.
00:20:45And, well,
00:20:46the full post was kind of talking
00:20:47about the new Toy Story 5 song
00:20:49that she wrote.
00:20:50And it's more of a country-leaning song.
00:20:52And so you were positing
00:20:53that maybe this would be a great way
00:20:54for her to get back
00:20:55to the debut album
00:20:57and remind people
00:20:58about kind of that sound
00:20:59from her.
00:21:00100%, yeah.
00:21:00But, okay,
00:21:01so she has her master's though now.
00:21:03So the debut album
00:21:05has been re-recorded.
00:21:07It's been done for a while now.
00:21:09And last year
00:21:10when she announced
00:21:11that she bought her master's back,
00:21:14in the letter,
00:21:15she wrote that debut
00:21:17will come out eventually.
00:21:19So she said it's done
00:21:20and re-recorded.
00:21:21The one that won't
00:21:22is Reputation.
00:21:24Maybe the vault tracks
00:21:25will at some point,
00:21:26but not the full album,
00:21:28most likely.
00:21:29So, yeah,
00:21:30I think what better moment
00:21:32to release debut
00:21:34Taylor's version
00:21:35than the 20-year anniversary
00:21:37of the debut album.
00:21:39Make it a big cultural moment
00:21:41like Miley did
00:21:42with Hannah Montana,
00:21:43you know?
00:21:43Yeah.
00:21:43Yeah, I mean,
00:21:44I think that's a very fair prediction.
00:21:46Also with the Toy Story 5 song,
00:21:49another great thing
00:21:49that you pointed out
00:21:50on social media
00:21:51is that this was
00:21:52a really smart move
00:21:53by her
00:21:53because it kind of
00:21:54introduces Taylor Swift's music
00:21:56to a new generation
00:21:57of fans through Toy Story.
00:21:58Yeah.
00:21:59She has done this before,
00:22:00in my opinion.
00:22:01I think The Summer I Turned Pretty,
00:22:03which had a pretty young demographic
00:22:05watching that show,
00:22:06although they're more like
00:22:06pre-teens, teenagers.
00:22:08I was watching.
00:22:09Yeah, and me.
00:22:10I did watch the first season,
00:22:11then I fell off,
00:22:12but yes,
00:22:13it was a good show.
00:22:13Oh, you didn't finish.
00:22:14Okay.
00:22:14I know.
00:22:15It's the gap between seasons.
00:22:16I just lose momentum.
00:22:17I get it.
00:22:18I get it.
00:22:18So, anyways,
00:22:19but Taylor Swift
00:22:20licensed some of her songs
00:22:21for that show,
00:22:23and I thought that
00:22:24that was really astute back then
00:22:25and I remember I actually
00:22:26wanted to write a story
00:22:27at the time
00:22:28about this very thing
00:22:29that I feel like it is
00:22:30introducing her
00:22:30to the next generation.
00:22:32So, I'm wondering
00:22:33if you can kind of
00:22:34elaborate more on that.
00:22:35Like, how do you think
00:22:36Taylor Swift
00:22:37is able to
00:22:38constantly reach out
00:22:40to a new generation of fans?
00:22:41Because I feel like
00:22:42she does that very well.
00:22:43She does it very well
00:22:43and very often,
00:22:44like you said.
00:22:45I think the best way
00:22:47she's ever done it
00:22:48is the re-recordings.
00:22:49I mean,
00:22:50obviously,
00:22:50she had other motivations,
00:22:51but I do think
00:22:53it helped capture
00:22:54a whole new generation
00:22:55of fans
00:22:57because she essentially
00:22:58was reliving
00:22:59what she built
00:23:00in her career
00:23:00the first,
00:23:01you know,
00:23:01decade or so.
00:23:02So, I think that
00:23:03really brought in
00:23:04a whole new wave of fans
00:23:05and then that's what
00:23:06led to the Aeros tour
00:23:07and that just
00:23:09took her to new heights.
00:23:10But,
00:23:12with Toy Story
00:23:13specifically,
00:23:14I posted a video
00:23:15the other day
00:23:16saying how
00:23:16it's just brilliant
00:23:18because Toy Story,
00:23:19a Disney movie,
00:23:20you're going to have
00:23:21that soundtrack
00:23:22playing in
00:23:23every single household.
00:23:25Not just households
00:23:27with little kids,
00:23:28but mostly,
00:23:29probably.
00:23:30That song will be
00:23:31on repeat.
00:23:32And so,
00:23:32these little kids
00:23:33who may not know
00:23:34much about Taylor yet
00:23:35are going to hear
00:23:36that song
00:23:36and they're going to be like,
00:23:37oh my god,
00:23:37I love this song.
00:23:38Who sings this?
00:23:38I want more of Taylor Swift.
00:23:40And then,
00:23:41you know,
00:23:41maybe she comes out
00:23:42with debut Taylor's version
00:23:43this year
00:23:44and they get hooked
00:23:46the way everybody
00:23:47got hooked in 2006.
00:23:48It's brilliant.
00:23:49Yeah,
00:23:50I totally agree.
00:23:52One other thing
00:23:53I wanted to ask you
00:23:53about digital marketing
00:23:55for artists.
00:23:56We did an episode
00:23:58of this show
00:23:58with the co-founders
00:23:59of this company
00:24:01called Chaotic Good
00:24:01and they run
00:24:03a bunch of strategies
00:24:04to help a lot
00:24:05of big name artists
00:24:06in the music industry
00:24:07to get their music
00:24:09essentially into
00:24:09the algorithm on TikTok.
00:24:10Okay.
00:24:11It sparked a very large
00:24:12conversation about like,
00:24:13is the feed fake online?
00:24:15There's a lot of discourse.
00:24:16But I think
00:24:18a related type
00:24:19of digital marketing
00:24:19that's become really popular
00:24:21in the music industry today
00:24:22is the idea
00:24:23of labels creating
00:24:24fanpages themselves.
00:24:26There are a lot
00:24:26of record labels
00:24:27that create their own
00:24:28fanpages and run them
00:24:29but they don't disclose,
00:24:30you know,
00:24:31this is from the label.
00:24:32It just kind of mimics
00:24:34what a fanpage
00:24:35would look like.
00:24:35Yeah.
00:24:36And so I'm wondering
00:24:36how do you feel
00:24:38fake fanpages
00:24:39impact fandom online?
00:24:43I, I mean,
00:24:44I'm not against them.
00:24:46I just, I prefer
00:24:47the organic route
00:24:48of let the fans
00:24:49do it themselves
00:24:50but I understand
00:24:51why they do it.
00:24:52I mean, the more
00:24:54fanpages that pop up,
00:24:55the more it'll inspire
00:24:57other people
00:24:57to create fanpages.
00:24:58So if anything,
00:24:59you are creating
00:25:00more organic fanpages
00:25:02by doing that.
00:25:03Have you seen it
00:25:03impact fandom online?
00:25:05Like, have you seen fans
00:25:06just like accidentally
00:25:07running into these
00:25:08fake fanpages
00:25:09and realizing...
00:25:10I don't think they know.
00:25:11Like, I don't think
00:25:12the fans who have
00:25:13fan accounts know
00:25:14that some of the pages
00:25:15they're interacting with
00:25:16are label-fueled
00:25:18fanpages.
00:25:19I think they have no idea.
00:25:20Yeah.
00:25:21It's interesting.
00:25:22Yeah.
00:25:22It's interesting because
00:25:23it, well,
00:25:24I'm just so in my bubble.
00:25:25I'm like so deep
00:25:26in like the music
00:25:27industry bubble
00:25:27that I feel like
00:25:28people have revealed
00:25:29that these fanpages exist.
00:25:31I've seen chatter
00:25:32about it online
00:25:32but, you know,
00:25:34it's very possible
00:25:34that it's not reaching fans.
00:25:36Like, this news
00:25:37about this marketing strategy.
00:25:38Yeah, I don't think,
00:25:39I think it's reaching people
00:25:40in the music business
00:25:41but I don't think
00:25:41it's really reaching
00:25:43the people
00:25:44who have fan accounts
00:25:45and I would maybe say
00:25:47that most people
00:25:48who have fan accounts
00:25:48are on the younger side
00:25:50and probably aren't,
00:25:52you know,
00:25:53on the side of TikTok
00:25:54or whatever
00:25:55where they would learn
00:25:56about the music business yet.
00:25:57I'm also wondering
00:25:58because you got started
00:25:59on Tumblr,
00:26:01what,
00:26:01how long ago
00:26:02was that now?
00:26:03Like...
00:26:032000, I guess...
00:26:0515 years ago?
00:26:06A little less
00:26:07but yeah.
00:26:07Okay.
00:26:07So you started
00:26:08on social media
00:26:09about 15 years ago
00:26:10and since then
00:26:12the internet has evolved
00:26:13and social media
00:26:13has evolved a lot.
00:26:15So I'm wondering
00:26:16how do you think
00:26:16the evolution
00:26:17of social media
00:26:18has impacted
00:26:19fan accounts?
00:26:21I think now
00:26:22that they're more
00:26:23prominent
00:26:24and I feel like
00:26:25everybody knows
00:26:26about them
00:26:27it's more normal
00:26:29to have it.
00:26:30There's,
00:26:30I would say
00:26:31there's less
00:26:31of a stigma now
00:26:32than there was
00:26:33when I started one.
00:26:34Hmm, okay.
00:26:36Yeah, I mean
00:26:37I definitely feel
00:26:38less judged by people
00:26:39now that I've turned
00:26:40it into a business
00:26:41and have a book
00:26:42and everything
00:26:42and have made money
00:26:43from it
00:26:44but I remember
00:26:46in high school
00:26:47at first
00:26:48I didn't really
00:26:49want people to know
00:26:50in my school
00:26:50like, oh,
00:26:51I have a Taylor Swift
00:26:52fan account.
00:26:54Eventually I didn't care
00:26:54and I became known
00:26:55as like the Taylor Swift
00:26:56girl.
00:26:56I was like, okay,
00:26:57I went to her house
00:26:58so whatever.
00:26:58Yeah, just kind of
00:26:59own it at that point.
00:27:00Yeah, but I do think
00:27:01that because it's
00:27:02as social media
00:27:03has evolved
00:27:05and so many more
00:27:06fan pages have popped up
00:27:07it's just kind of
00:27:08a norm now.
00:27:09So I think people
00:27:09respect it more
00:27:10than they used to.
00:27:12I think they used
00:27:12to look down on it more.
00:27:13Yeah, yeah,
00:27:14I can see that.
00:27:15I also feel like
00:27:16the way that social media
00:27:17works now
00:27:17is very different.
00:27:18Yeah.
00:27:19So Tumblr
00:27:20and early Instagram
00:27:22like basically
00:27:23everything pre-TikTok
00:27:24was very much so about
00:27:25I found an account
00:27:26that I like
00:27:26and I'm going to follow it.
00:27:27Yeah.
00:27:28And I'm going to see it
00:27:28on my feed all the time
00:27:29and it's chronological
00:27:30and it's about
00:27:31connecting with friends
00:27:32or internet friends
00:27:33in the case of fandom
00:27:34usually.
00:27:35But now
00:27:36since TikTok
00:27:37we switched to this
00:27:38FYP model
00:27:39where it's all about
00:27:40serving you content
00:27:41that suits you
00:27:41rather than serving you
00:27:43what your friend's up to.
00:27:44Yeah.
00:27:45And so
00:27:45has that had any impact?
00:27:48I actually think
00:27:49it's benefited me a lot.
00:27:50Oh wow.
00:27:51Okay.
00:27:51During the Arrow's tour
00:27:53especially
00:27:53every single video
00:27:55I would post
00:27:56would just pop off
00:27:57and get me
00:27:58a ton of followers
00:27:59because it would be fed
00:28:00to people that
00:28:01weren't following me.
00:28:02So
00:28:03and I also really like
00:28:04the trial reels
00:28:05Yes.
00:28:06Because that does
00:28:07the same thing.
00:28:08So
00:28:08I
00:28:09yeah
00:28:09I think it's definitely
00:28:10helped my page grow
00:28:12probably a lot of pages
00:28:13because you know
00:28:14if you're interested
00:28:14in one thing
00:28:15people who are seeing
00:28:16my videos
00:28:17are probably seeing
00:28:18videos from other
00:28:18fan accounts
00:28:19that are related
00:28:20to Taylor.
00:28:21So
00:28:22yeah
00:28:23I mean
00:28:23I'm sure there's
00:28:23negative things
00:28:24I mean
00:28:24I never
00:28:25see my friend's
00:28:26content anymore
00:28:27on my page
00:28:28when I scroll
00:28:29I'm like
00:28:29I never know
00:28:30what they're up to
00:28:30because
00:28:31I just see
00:28:32like right now
00:28:33I see a bunch
00:28:34of off-campus stuff
00:28:35like edits and stuff
00:28:36I'm like
00:28:36it's my entire page
00:28:37because Instagram
00:28:38knows that I liked
00:28:39a few reels
00:28:40like edit
00:28:40fan edits
00:28:41and now it's
00:28:42my entire page.
00:28:43Yeah.
00:28:44Yeah it's like
00:28:44it's so great
00:28:45for the discovery
00:28:46of a page
00:28:47but sometimes
00:28:48it can be hard
00:28:48to keep the page
00:28:49into all of
00:28:50the followers.
00:28:51Yes.
00:28:53That's at least
00:28:53what I've found
00:28:54and I feel like
00:28:54with this very
00:28:55fragmented
00:28:56internet
00:28:57like as someone
00:28:58with a podcast
00:28:59now it's like
00:28:59I'm constantly
00:29:00trying to post
00:29:01a million times
00:29:01because it's
00:29:02very possible
00:29:02that my friend
00:29:03doesn't see
00:29:04the first five
00:29:04posts that I make
00:29:05about an episode.
00:29:07So yeah
00:29:07I mean that's
00:29:08a huge issue
00:29:09that artists
00:29:09are facing today
00:29:10maybe not someone
00:29:11like Taylor
00:29:11who is so ubiquitous
00:29:13but an up-and-coming
00:29:14artist today
00:29:15to try to break
00:29:15through the noise.
00:29:16For sure.
00:29:17But another thing
00:29:18that I saw recently
00:29:20Instagram has
00:29:21a new policy
00:29:23they're not
00:29:24prioritizing content
00:29:25from aggregators
00:29:26so people who
00:29:27don't make
00:29:27a bunch of
00:29:28original content
00:29:29this wouldn't
00:29:30really fall
00:29:30into your domain
00:29:31because you do
00:29:32actually show
00:29:33your face
00:29:33make original
00:29:34content
00:29:34go to games
00:29:35and capture
00:29:35you know
00:29:36Mine's kind
00:29:36of a blend
00:29:37of the two.
00:29:38Yeah and so
00:29:39I'm wondering
00:29:39do you think
00:29:40that that could
00:29:40have a negative
00:29:41impact on some
00:29:42of these other
00:29:43fan pages?
00:29:45Yeah I think
00:29:46if you don't
00:29:46make any original
00:29:47content and you're
00:29:48just like reposting
00:29:49other people's stuff
00:29:50it could definitely
00:29:51affect your page
00:29:52it could probably
00:29:53affect meme pages
00:29:54and stuff like that
00:29:55that aren't making
00:29:56original content
00:29:57I mean I post a lot
00:29:58of tweet dumps
00:29:59that's kind of how
00:29:59that's one way
00:30:00that I keep everyone
00:30:01updated and engaged
00:30:03on the page
00:30:04so that actually
00:30:05worried me when I
00:30:05got that notification
00:30:06like Instagram's
00:30:07going to be boosting
00:30:08original content
00:30:09I'm like okay
00:30:09so
00:30:10yeah
00:30:11well but you do
00:30:12post stuff
00:30:13with your face
00:30:14you know
00:30:15you went to the
00:30:16Aeros tour
00:30:16and were posting
00:30:17I was posting
00:30:18so much original
00:30:19content back then
00:30:20during the Aeros tour
00:30:22and going to
00:30:23Chiefs games
00:30:23and award shows
00:30:24and stuff like that
00:30:25yeah
00:30:26well okay
00:30:27so I want to
00:30:27switch gears a little
00:30:28bit and talk about
00:30:29how Swifties for
00:30:31Eternity turned
00:30:31into your career
00:30:32so what was the
00:30:34turning point for you
00:30:35when Swifties for
00:30:36Eternity went from
00:30:37just something you
00:30:38were doing for free
00:30:39for fun and into
00:30:40something where you
00:30:41were making money
00:30:42or maybe considering
00:30:43it as a career
00:30:43option
00:30:44so I moved to
00:30:46Nashville post
00:30:47college
00:30:48I had a corporate
00:30:49job at a small
00:30:51book publishing
00:30:52company
00:30:52I hated it
00:30:54and about a few
00:30:56months after I
00:30:57moved to Nashville
00:30:58I got laid off
00:30:59literally the day
00:31:00after I told my mom
00:31:01I wanted to quit
00:31:01but I wasn't gonna
00:31:02actually quit
00:31:03so I'm happy
00:31:05it gave me the push
00:31:07I needed
00:31:08and that summer
00:31:09of 2023
00:31:10I was like okay
00:31:11well I'll apply to
00:31:13jobs and while I do
00:31:14that I'll start
00:31:15putting my face
00:31:15on the account
00:31:17that's where I
00:31:18really started to
00:31:18put my personality
00:31:20and you know do
00:31:21videos of myself
00:31:22talking on Swifties
00:31:24for Eternity
00:31:26and still at this
00:31:27point I was looking
00:31:28for a corporate job
00:31:29I was like okay
00:31:29I didn't think there
00:31:30was any money to be
00:31:31made on a fan
00:31:32account and then
00:31:33as the summer went
00:31:35on I was interviewing
00:31:35at labels in
00:31:36Nashville and I was
00:31:37like none of this
00:31:37really excites me
00:31:38like I don't really
00:31:39want to work for
00:31:40someone and so one
00:31:41day I just called
00:31:42my parents and I
00:31:43was like I'm going
00:31:43to stop looking for
00:31:45a job and I'm
00:31:46going to take
00:31:48an online
00:31:49copywriting course
00:31:49and build my own
00:31:50freelance copywriting
00:31:51business that was
00:31:52my plan okay so I
00:31:54did that I took
00:31:54the course I
00:31:56eventually had one
00:31:57client and then I
00:31:59was in LA and I
00:32:00happened to meet
00:32:01this girl who I
00:32:02connected with from
00:32:03Instagram and she
00:32:04was a big Swifty
00:32:05and she worked at a
00:32:06talent agency and
00:32:08she was like let me
00:32:08like rep you and try
00:32:09to get you brand
00:32:10deals and I was
00:32:11like do you do you
00:32:11actually think that
00:32:12would work and she
00:32:14was like well we can
00:32:14try it like you
00:32:15started putting your
00:32:16face on the account
00:32:17now so like there's
00:32:17a face to it so
00:32:18let's try and it
00:32:20worked and that fall
00:32:21of 2023 I made
00:32:23more money in brand
00:32:24deals than I ever
00:32:25did in corporate
00:32:25oh my god and I
00:32:27stopped I quit the
00:32:28copywriting thing I
00:32:29was like I don't
00:32:30need to do that
00:32:30anymore so I
00:32:31focused on that
00:32:32full-time and then
00:32:34I also was doing
00:32:35some stuff at a
00:32:36content house learning
00:32:37about like virality
00:32:38and stuff like that
00:32:40as like a side gig a
00:32:41couple times a week
00:32:42and then eventually I
00:32:43stopped that because
00:32:43the brand deals were
00:32:44rolling through during
00:32:46the arrows tour and
00:32:47then fast forward a
00:32:48few months and the
00:32:49book stuff came along
00:32:50so that's kind of I
00:32:52think the moment that
00:32:53I realized wow this
00:32:55could be a job was
00:32:57probably that fall when
00:32:59I was getting all these
00:32:59brand deals but at the
00:33:00same time I was like
00:33:01okay I'll ride this
00:33:02wave but once the
00:33:04arrows tour is over I'm
00:33:06probably not going to
00:33:06get this many brand
00:33:08deals and you never
00:33:10know with the general
00:33:11public are they going
00:33:12to like Taylor in a
00:33:13few years how is
00:33:14that going to affect
00:33:14my fan account and
00:33:16all of that so there
00:33:16are so many factors so
00:33:17I was like okay I
00:33:18can't solely rely on
00:33:20this fan page to make
00:33:23you know make it a
00:33:24career for the rest of
00:33:24my life and you know
00:33:26I want to do other
00:33:27things yeah yes I will
00:33:28always be a fan of
00:33:28Taylor's but I have so
00:33:29many other interests
00:33:30too in music and other
00:33:31artists and none that I
00:33:34would create a fan
00:33:35account for yeah but I
00:33:37yeah so it kind of
00:33:38guided my career in a
00:33:39way that's so
00:33:40interesting okay so as
00:33:42far as brand deals go
00:33:43what kind of brands
00:33:44were interested in in
00:33:45you as a Swiftie being
00:33:47first and foremost a
00:33:48Swiftie yeah I mean
00:33:49off the top of my
00:33:50head I did one with
00:33:51Evermore Resort which
00:33:52is like a Disney
00:33:53Disney competitor which
00:33:54makes sense right okay
00:33:55okay that they're in
00:33:57Orlando I did one with
00:33:58Sweet Lauren's the
00:33:59gluten-free cookie it was
00:34:02like some Super Bowl ad I
00:34:04was doing on Instagram
00:34:06like make cookies for the
00:34:07Super Bowl with me you
00:34:08know that kind of thing
00:34:08the Chiefs were in it
00:34:10and I did one with Jeff
00:34:12Hamilton who makes
00:34:14jackets for celebrity
00:34:16athlete teams athletic
00:34:18team sports teams yeah
00:34:20so like the Chiefs and
00:34:21stuff so I did one with
00:34:22him there's been a lot of
00:34:24random random ones
00:34:26everybody who you know
00:34:28during the Aerosaur wanted
00:34:29to be associated with her
00:34:30and and wanted to target
00:34:32her fan base without you
00:34:34know they can't get a deal
00:34:36with Taylor so they get
00:34:37ones with fan accounts
00:34:39that have the same
00:34:39following that's so
00:34:41interesting to me and
00:34:42also you touched on you
00:34:44know who knows what's
00:34:45going to happen after the
00:34:45Aeros tour who knows if
00:34:47you know Taylor Swift is
00:34:48going to be up or down
00:34:49with the general public
00:34:50and I'm wondering have
00:34:52you seen with your
00:34:53account engagement go up
00:34:55and down in accordance
00:34:56with when people are
00:34:57absolutely loving her and
00:34:59when people are oh yeah
00:35:00turning their back on her
00:35:01and then coming back for
00:35:02sure 100% I mean every
00:35:03time she releases something
00:35:05boom it skyrockets yeah
00:35:07but I don't know if I'll
00:35:08ever reach the level of
00:35:10engagement that I had
00:35:11during the Aeros tour on
00:35:12that page oh my god but I
00:35:14mean it was over like well
00:35:17over a hundred million
00:35:18people visiting my page
00:35:19every few weeks like every
00:35:21month it was crazy and
00:35:23then just the amount of
00:35:25followers I would get in a
00:35:26day I'd get like a couple
00:35:27grand a couple thousand
00:35:28followers in a day sometimes
00:35:30more it grew so fast because
00:35:34at the at the time when I
00:35:35got laid off my job and the
00:35:36Aeros tour had just
00:35:37started I had like 32,000
00:35:39followers whoa yeah okay
00:35:41you're like 630,000 yeah I
00:35:44just checked yeah yep wow
00:35:47yeah okay but it does it goes
00:35:49up and down so like after the
00:35:51Aeros tour I lost a few
00:35:54thousand followers people are
00:35:55like okay the hype's done you
00:35:57know but then they come back
00:35:58when Taylor releases
00:35:59something so my following kind
00:36:01of goes like this but it's
00:36:02within within the same few
00:36:04thousand it fluctuates
00:36:06that's wild I also am curious
00:36:09do you consider yourself to be
00:36:11an influencer do you feel like
00:36:12that title makes sense for you
00:36:13I you know I kind of coined the
00:36:16term in my book I I said fan
00:36:18fluencer because I'm like part
00:36:21fan account yeah I share some of
00:36:23my life and then you know I've
00:36:25kind of used the fan account to
00:36:26grow my own personal brand on my
00:36:28personal Instagram account I'm at
00:36:30like I don't know 70 something
00:36:31thousand on there but I don't
00:36:34post that often so I don't think
00:36:35I could call myself an
00:36:36influencer because I feel like if
00:36:37you're an influencer you probably
00:36:39post on your personal page every
00:36:41single day of like what you're
00:36:43doing throughout the day like I
00:36:44have I really don't have a desire
00:36:46to do that it's not where my
00:36:48passion is my passion is in the
00:36:50community and connecting with
00:36:51other people about something we
00:36:53all collectively love and are
00:36:55passionate about and it's fun when
00:36:58people are like invested in oh my
00:37:00god did you went on a date with so
00:37:02and so like you know so that
00:37:04happens sometimes and everyone's
00:37:06like rooting for me to like find
00:37:07my husband I'm like that's it's so
00:37:09cool maybe I will share more of my
00:37:10personal life when I have more to
00:37:12share in that regard but so it's fun
00:37:16that some people are like curious
00:37:17about you know what I do outside of
00:37:2050s for eternity and and and watch
00:37:23these podcasts to learn more about me
00:37:25in my life but yeah I don't know if
00:37:28I could call myself an influencer
00:37:29but I don't know what would you say
00:37:31from an outside looking in
00:37:33perspective I would say you're an
00:37:34influencer among fans for sure it's
00:37:36just a different kind of a niche a
00:37:38niche kind of but it's like yeah I
00:37:40don't know or I think creator makes
00:37:42more sense like I feel like that's
00:37:43kind of more the term du jour right
00:37:45now anyway yeah you're a creator if
00:37:48you're creating anything original I
00:37:50think anyone's a creator yeah I guess
00:37:52I'm a creator although I'm a
00:37:53journalist first and foremost I do
00:37:55make like short form content to try
00:37:58to get people to read my work so yeah
00:38:01I mean I think everyone kind of does
00:38:03a little bit of content creation these
00:38:04days or not everyone but a lot of
00:38:06people have to so you have to even if
00:38:08you don't want to you have to I'm
00:38:10curious like with brand deals you have
00:38:13invested a lot of time and probably
00:38:16money into going to the eras tour going
00:38:19to chiefs games capturing original
00:38:21content for fan pages through these
00:38:24brand deals has anyone ever like
00:38:25helped you go to those do they send
00:38:27you tickets so that you can capture
00:38:28content there and have that be part of
00:38:30the partnership there's been a few
00:38:32things like that like I went on a
00:38:36cruise that had like a Taylor Swift
00:38:38themed something group going so I got
00:38:42sent on that cruise and to make
00:38:44content and stuff so I've done some
00:38:46stuff like that but a lot of it was
00:38:47yeah me investing my own money to be
00:38:50the best fan page and keep everyone
00:38:52updated and like have fun content so
00:38:54yeah I mean it's a business expense
00:38:56for you it is like anything else it's a
00:38:58write-off yeah and then I started also
00:39:01helping people I mean I'm sure we'll
00:39:03get to this but the concert ticket stuff
00:39:04that was also gonna bring it up yeah
00:39:06yeah yeah tell us about that for the
00:39:08majority of the eras tour I was helping
00:39:09people get face value concert tickets for
00:39:12free on my Instagram people would
00:39:14message me and say hey I have extra
00:39:15tickets or I can't make it anymore I
00:39:17want these to go to another super fan
00:39:19that follows you at face value I don't
00:39:22want to upcharge and I thought that was
00:39:24so great so I did it for a while and
00:39:26then toward the end of the eras tour
00:39:29last like four-ish months I was getting
00:39:31such an influx of ticket ticket requests
00:39:35like you know help me get these to
00:39:37someone and I was kind of getting
00:39:39overwhelmed and around that time I got
00:39:41approached by a subscription platform
00:39:43that was like we want you to make
00:39:44exclusive content for our platform I'm
00:39:46like okay what what kind of exclusive
00:39:48content would I make for them I'm not
00:39:50posting selfies or bikini pictures of
00:39:52myself that's not my thing no one's
00:39:54gonna pay for that yeah I am not
00:39:57posting exclusive like Taylor Swift
00:39:59updates when they are available
00:40:01everywhere you know and I would never
00:40:03want to do that so I I said no at first
00:40:07and then I came up with the idea I was
00:40:09like okay well I'm spending entire days
00:40:11verifying these concert tickets and
00:40:13helping people sell them to other fans
00:40:15and like monitoring the group chats and
00:40:17everything and I was like let me start
00:40:19posting those tickets on the subscription
00:40:22platform so that's what I did and I knew
00:40:25I was gonna get some backlash for it as
00:40:28you know people always do on social media
00:40:30but I I did it and I charged like three
00:40:33four dollars a month if you wanted an
00:40:36opportunity to get those face value
00:40:38tickets that I was posting because or
00:40:40you could just you know go to StubHub and
00:40:42pay ten grand five grand whatever but I
00:40:46wanted to help as many people get to the
00:40:48Aerosaur before it ended as possible and
00:40:50I also wanted it to be sustainable for me
00:40:52because I was providing service I was
00:40:54spending so many days of my time doing
00:40:59that for people so yeah I did that for
00:41:01probably the last like three four months
00:41:02of the Aerosaur and it's interesting
00:41:06because I remember being afraid to post
00:41:08that I was doing that because I was
00:41:09like oh my god what if people cancel me
00:41:12and and I was like you know what I'm
00:41:14providing a service so I posted I did it
00:41:16it did really well and I helped a lot of
00:41:18people get to the show and a lot of like
00:41:20moms and daughters it was great that was
00:41:22like the main reason why I did it and
00:41:25then on I had people texting me like are
00:41:28you good like do you see what's happening
00:41:29on Twitter right now I'm like oh no what
00:41:31happened and they're like oh people are
00:41:34like canceling you for charging three
00:41:36dollars a month for the subscription to
00:41:40get to get the tickets and they think
00:41:43you should do it for free I'm like if I
00:41:46were a man I not to play that card but
00:41:49I'm like cue Taylor Swift's the man well
00:41:52I was going to say I have a perfect song
00:41:53for you yeah or father figure but truly I
00:41:57don't you know I think that is like a
00:41:59low enough price that worst case scenario
00:42:02you spend three months on there you spend
00:42:04like nine to twenty dollars I think it's
00:42:08okay and you don't get tickets but like no
00:42:10one's forcing you to subscribe you know
00:42:12yeah well okay so how did you respond to
00:42:15the critics what did that ever shake your
00:42:17ideas about this so I don't do at least at
00:42:21that point in my life I don't know how I
00:42:23would be today I think I'd be a little like
00:42:25thicker skin now but I am very sensitive to
00:42:28stuff like that so I definitely definitely
00:42:29gave me anxiety for a little bit but I
00:42:32kept doing it I was like you know what
00:42:34whatever I'm helping people and and no
00:42:36one's being forced to subscribe so and it
00:42:39was honestly it was mostly Twitter that
00:42:41was mean because Instagram everyone's
00:42:44like you're doing such a good thing like
00:42:45thank you I got my tickets through you
00:42:47like keep doing it so I felt good about
00:42:49what I was doing and yeah so I think I
00:42:54would deal with the hate better today but
00:42:56I got I would say I got over it pretty
00:42:58quickly because I was like yeah whatever
00:42:59yeah I mean it's interesting that it was
00:43:02platform specific for you but I guess
00:43:04that says a lot about Twitter and what it
00:43:06surfaces as content Twitter can be
00:43:08ruthless it's a very ruthless place I
00:43:11still occasionally check in and it's not
00:43:13the same I used to really enjoy Twitter
00:43:15and thought that was actually my people
00:43:16are really funny on there people are very
00:43:19very funny but like things that they say
00:43:21that are really funny probably I feel like
00:43:23the Instagram people would not find it
00:43:25funny they'd be like yeah that's that's
00:43:26rude yeah you kind of you kind of have to
00:43:28be there and be among that for a while
00:43:30and have your brain broken a little bit
00:43:32Twitter until you start to enjoy it I
00:43:34think yeah I mean it's it's too bad now
00:43:36it is now X but I'm still not calling it
00:43:38that I think I'll always call it Twitter
00:43:41yeah yeah well okay so I'm wondering if
00:43:44there's any way we can get into numbers
00:43:46about it like is there a ballpark of how
00:43:47much you've been able to make doing
00:43:49ticketing and brand partnerships from
00:43:51ticketing and brand partnerships and
00:43:53everything I mean I don't know the exact
00:43:56number but I probably six figures like
00:44:00much more than I ever made in corporate
00:44:02in my first corporate job where I was
00:44:03making like 40 or 45 I had to fight for
00:44:07the 45 yeah but I mean between between
00:44:11the book deal and the tickets and the
00:44:14brand stuff like you know it's been
00:44:15doing well so and it's led me to working
00:44:18with another artist Leroy kid Leroy so so
00:44:22yeah I'm just really happy that it's
00:44:24been able to guide my career and I spent
00:44:27all of you know five months in corporate
00:44:29America and I think that was good for me I
00:44:31think I got my dose of it and I think it
00:44:34truly having that experience where I was
00:44:36miserable every day I didn't feel
00:44:38fulfilled in my work I wasn't passionate
00:44:40about what I was doing that really
00:44:42inspired me to figure it out because I
00:44:45had just moved to Nashville I now had no
00:44:47job my best friend slash my dog but who
00:44:50was my best friend died who I'd had for
00:44:5218 years right after I got laid off so I
00:44:54had no job no money no dog and I was like
00:44:57I want to stay in Nashville I have to
00:44:59figure it out and so I figured it out at
00:45:02this point in your perfect world moving
00:45:04forward do you want to move more into
00:45:06doing HQ accounts for other artists and
00:45:09that's kind of the the wave or is it
00:45:11writing more books is it doing more with
00:45:13your ticketing platform you know it's
00:45:15funny because I kind of feel like a
00:45:16blend of all of what you just said
00:45:18I would love to take on another artist
00:45:20soon and do another HQ account and
00:45:23maybe build that part out of my job out
00:45:26I would love to find a way to you know
00:45:29make more of a difference in the
00:45:30ticketing space because that's something
00:45:32I'm very passionate about as well and
00:45:35then I would love to write another book
00:45:36one day I don't know what about I kind
00:45:38of want the idea to come to me
00:45:39organically but I think I'll always want
00:45:42to stick to what I'm passionate about
00:45:43because that's what keeps me going you
00:45:45know it's what makes me happy and
00:45:46fulfilled so so all of that I think
00:45:49combined and maybe other things that
00:45:50come my way I try not to be too much of
00:45:55a planner because I look back and I'm
00:45:57like okay look how everything has worked
00:45:59out up until now and I could never have
00:46:02imagined how this would all go so I I
00:46:05kind of just ride the wave and see what
00:46:07happens and you know I always say yes to
00:46:10going to events and and things where I
00:46:12could network and and meet awesome
00:46:14people who are just so nice and want to
00:46:16help you and give you new opportunities
00:46:19and and one opportunity always leads to
00:46:21the next so so yeah but I think I'll
00:46:23always Swifties for eternity it's for
00:46:25eternity that I'll always do for fun and
00:46:28you know do the occasional brand deals
00:46:29here and there I don't know if I'll ever
00:46:32do the type of brand deals that I was
00:46:34doing during the era so like you know
00:46:36you wanted to get into numbers I think
00:46:38my my biggest brand deal was probably
00:46:39around $30,000 that's good which is for
00:46:42one post yeah nice okay so while you
00:46:46were working on your ticketing idea I'm
00:46:48wondering what you learned about the
00:46:49ticketing business yeah that it's really
00:46:53messed up and very complicated yeah I had
00:46:58thought about building it out into my own
00:47:01kind of platform and I just I talked to
00:47:04people who had done things like that to
00:47:06try and go against ticketmaster and
00:47:07they're like it is a very difficult
00:47:09space to change and with all the laws and
00:47:13everything it's it's a disaster so I kind
00:47:17of went away from that but I do want to
00:47:19still find a way to work with people where
00:47:23I can make a difference in that space
00:47:25yeah I mean I learned I didn't know how
00:47:27messed up it was and that's partially
00:47:30because growing up when I would go to
00:47:32Taylor shows I never paid more than like
00:47:34$300 front row on the floor and I would go
00:47:37to a shows yeah it was oh my gosh the good
00:47:40old days good old days so when I remember
00:47:43being in Florida walking around and seeing
00:47:45that the general sale for the aerosol was
00:47:48canceled because all the tickets had sold or
00:47:51most of them had sold in the pre-sale and
00:47:52I'm like what and then all of a sudden the
00:47:56tickets are on sub hub for thousands of
00:47:58dollars I'm like what's happening yeah I've
00:47:59never seen this before that's when I was I
00:48:02really started educating myself on it and
00:48:06the only reason why what I did with the
00:48:08tickets worked was because of all the
00:48:10amazing Swifties who wanted other fans to
00:48:13be able to go because they could have you
00:48:15know turned around and sold them on sub
00:48:17hub and made money to pocket but they
00:48:19didn't they wanted other fans to experience
00:48:21the joy that was the aeros tour so I think
00:48:23that's so cool that it's a it's a testament to
00:48:26the kind of community that the Swifties are yeah
00:48:29well you're doing more than just aeros tour
00:48:30tickets these days yeah I yeah I've
00:48:33expanded and I started doing like Sabrina
00:48:35Carpenter and Gracie I've taken a little
00:48:36break now that all the pop girlies have
00:48:38been taking a break I really only do it for
00:48:42the super competitive ones so Gracie
00:48:45Sabrina but the you know sometimes I'll get
00:48:48submissions for artists that you can go on
00:48:50sub hub and buy them for 50 bucks I'm not
00:48:53gonna I'm not gonna go through a whole
00:48:54process to post about those and also I only
00:48:57do America because they don't have a ticket
00:49:00problem everywhere else yeah yeah that's so
00:49:03true I mean I feel like the aeros tour did
00:49:06really bring all of the supposed issues with
00:49:09them to light and brought it to the general
00:49:11public it's it's really remarkable what an
00:49:15impact she had on that conversation and she
00:49:18didn't even necessarily even need to say
00:49:19anything just the sheer process of ticket
00:49:22buying being so difficult was all that it needed
00:49:24to push it to Capitol Hill yeah I know I know
00:49:27Swifties were being talked about in the
00:49:29Senate yeah and I don't know if you saw but
00:49:32Spotify announced a partnership where they're
00:49:37working with a company to help fans get face
00:49:41value tickets yeah and the super fans and it's
00:49:44all linked to the streaming service so I think
00:49:46that's really that's a brilliant way to do it
00:49:48yeah I can okay I can actually explain that a
00:49:50little further for people who are listening and
00:49:52interested in that yeah because I had to write
00:49:53it up okay okay basically they have this new
00:49:56thing it's called reserved and they're going to
00:50:01essentially scan through their fan data that
00:50:02they have on the back end figure out who are
00:50:05some people who are in the top percentage of
00:50:07they're not really transparent exactly how you
00:50:10qualify because they don't want anyone to game
00:50:11it yeah but a top fan for an artist would be
00:50:15given a message from Spotify saying hey we've
00:50:19reserved you two tickets which are available for
00:50:21you to claim and buy if you want them in an
00:50:24effort to try to make the ticketing process a
00:50:27little bit easier for top fans and to give them
00:50:29kind of a little bonus from Spotify I think it's a
00:50:33really interesting idea I'm excited to see where
00:50:36it goes hopefully I'll get opportunities for
00:50:39tickets yeah at some point yeah but yeah I mean it
00:50:42is a little bit ironic their first partner is Live
00:50:45Nation but Live Nation does have a very large size
00:50:48of the market and they're it's not exclusive to Live
00:50:50Nation that's just the first partner okay so some
00:50:52Live Nation tours will have that reserved thing
00:50:55roll out yeah it was Live Nation that there were
00:50:57yeah that's interesting yeah that's the company
00:50:59okay well yeah it's interesting though but I'm
00:51:03wondering with the Ares tour the tickets were
00:51:06really expensive and also there were a lot of
00:51:07fans who were traveling to go see the shows there
00:51:10were a lot of people in the media talking about
00:51:12like the rise of concert tourism around that
00:51:14time I even had one of my co-workers fly to Paris so
00:51:18she could see the Ares tour for like the third or
00:51:20fourth time the tortured poets department had been
00:51:22added yeah yeah and so I'm wondering what are some of
00:51:28the craziest fan stories that you've heard of people
00:51:31going to extreme lengths to make it to the Ares tour
00:51:34oh that's a good question I mean I know so many people
00:51:38who traveled abroad to to see it because it was cheaper
00:51:41to do that than see her in America which is crazy I knew
00:51:46people who went to Vienna and then it got canceled so they
00:51:50landed and then they found out as the plane landed that
00:51:53the concerts were canceled and then I think they flew to
00:51:56the London shows yeah I think everybody just I know people
00:52:02who spent five grand a ticket so I think everyone wanted
00:52:08to experience the Ares tour I mean I don't think there will
00:52:11ever be a phenomenon like that again so I don't think people
00:52:15would regret having spent that kind of money I guess if they
00:52:19have it or or even traveled for it so yeah I think everybody
00:52:24did whatever they could to see that show yeah one trend that
00:52:27I've spotted in live music recently and we've actually talked
00:52:30about it on the show because we had the managing director of
00:52:33CAA his name is Rob Light he came on the show and we're
00:52:35talking about it with him it's the rise of the residency model
00:52:39for touring so where where an artist like Harry Styles and
00:52:42Beyonce and a few others have tried it where they stay in one
00:52:47city for many nights in a row and they have the fans come to
00:52:51them from surrounding cities so less cities overall more nights
00:52:55in the cities they do go to I'm wondering as a fan what you
00:52:59think of that I have like mixed mixed opinions on that I think we
00:53:05know that Swifties would travel to see Taylor and I've actually
00:53:08been wondering what she's going to do next for concerts and and I
00:53:12think it's going to be that style I think she's going to do some
00:53:15sort of residency I think it's so good for one the artist's
00:53:20mental health I think it's good that you know they can go home and
00:53:24see their family at night so it's really good for them and it's
00:53:30good for the people who live near there and can easily fly in I don't
00:53:35mind the concept of doing a residency in different countries in different
00:53:39cities like doing you know MSG or you know a stadium for a week that way
00:53:47anyone in the nearby states or that wants to fly in for it can and anyone
00:53:52who's around there can go and then doing it you know in Paris so all the
00:53:55European fans can go fly and it's super easy to travel there and not too
00:54:00expensive so I actually don't mind it and I'm like if it's better for the
00:54:04artists mental health and they're not just doing one residency in one location
00:54:09and that's the whole thing that would annoy me because then I'm like okay the
00:54:13entire world you're expecting the entire world to fly in to see you which I'm
00:54:18sure they would but yeah so I don't I don't mind hopping around residency yeah I
00:54:24mean there used to be rumors that Taylor Swift was gonna do the sphere yeah or
00:54:28just a I think I saw just other rumors about like just a Las Vegas residency in
00:54:32general yeah um do you do you foresee that being possible as a fan I know you
00:54:36don't ever really write anything off um with Taylor because she always does what
00:54:40you're like nah she would never do that I think the the world building she could do
00:54:45in a place like the sphere would be so cool yeah um but it is a small venue it is
00:54:51um so
00:54:52she was doing like a year-long residency there maybe but it is also convenient she
00:54:56could take a quick private jet flight back to her home in LA um and and see her
00:55:02family every night so I wouldn't ever write it off um but I don't know I'm
00:55:09wondering if she would do more of like a stadium residency or something yeah she
00:55:14could definitely do it um one interesting thing that our previous guest Rob Light
00:55:18brought up is that one of the reasons why artists like to do it beyond just the
00:55:23convenience of it is also that the cost of production for a stadium show like
00:55:28there is who are what Beyonce does or what Harry does is so exorbitant at this
00:55:33point that staying in one place also helps with cost so you're not putting
00:55:37everything on a bus and trying to take it to the next state every single night so I
00:55:41completely get that but I also would understand fans having backlash or
00:55:47having negative opinions about that because I know Harry fans have been a
00:55:51little bit upset about his most recent tour and how much it's really relying on
00:55:56that residency model but I guess at the end of the day if it's between Harry never
00:56:01doing any live shows and him doing this you'd rather him do this of course of
00:56:06course I would I would miss the the way touring used to be you know I I kind of
00:56:12it's exciting oh what day are they coming to my city you know it's fun as a fan
00:56:16but I I don't know I don't know if I have a super strong opinion on it yeah so I
00:56:23feel like Taylor Swift has had I mean well she's had a very powerful impact on the
00:56:28cities that she goes to and like the local economy there which is insane super
00:56:31like economic booms yes which is crazy she's also had an impact on the music
00:56:37industry itself so I wrote down like a few things that I've noted that she's had
00:56:41an impact on in the music industry I'm going to read them out but then I'm
00:56:43curious for you which one of these or if you have an additional one is like the
00:56:50most impactful in your opinion one of the ones that I have written down is that I
00:56:54mean Taylor held out on streaming for a long time hoping that she could have
00:56:59influence over the rates that they're paying to artists after doing her
00:57:02re-recordings her Taylor's versions that led to new label contract clauses which
00:57:07prevented re-recordings for a certain period of time this was not as common
00:57:11before her Taylor Nation was an early fan HQ account if not the earliest one now
00:57:16that's something that pretty much every big artist has when she signed to
00:57:20Republic Records she she secured that if UMG were ever to divest from their
00:57:26shares in Spotify that artists would get
00:57:29payments from that and it would be non recoupable so even if an artist was in
00:57:33the red with the label they weren't you know they hadn't paid back all the money
00:57:36that they had spent they would still be able to get this which actually UMG just
00:57:40sold half their shares in Spotify so there's probably some people who are
00:57:44seeing that hit their bottom line right now another one is when her masters her big
00:57:50machine masters were sold she basically educated the entire world about
00:57:56catalogues which I don't think anyone was paying attention to outside of the music industry before
00:58:01that and then also the heiress tour definitely led to a lot of politicians paying attention to what was
00:58:07happening at Ticketmaster so there's a lot it's a lot of things and I don't even think that's an exhaustive
00:58:13list no but they're big things they're big things I don't so you want me to pick the most impact
00:58:19yeah I'm just kind of wondering of of all these impacts that Taylor Swift has had on the music industry
00:58:24what do you think is the most significant that's so hard I know everything you just said is it's changed
00:58:31the
00:58:31game for everybody I mean I definitely think the the re-recording thing I don't know how much impact it's
00:58:37like because not a lot of people re-recorded their music before and no one was successful no one was
00:58:43successful doing it and I know more people are now doing it because of her but I still don't think
00:58:48like like yeah it's impacted the contracts for sure you can't re-record for 30 plus years yeah with the
00:58:56re-recordings I do think that the sentiment I was not in the music industry at this time
00:59:00but I think the sentiment in the music industry when she announced that she was doing these
00:59:05was largely like that's awesome but also how's that gonna work
00:59:09um and I think the general public kind of felt that way too and I'm wondering as a fan at
00:59:15that time
00:59:17you know what what were your thoughts going into it and and also tell me about hearing that first re
00:59:22-recording and figuring out that it was all gonna work
00:59:24yeah I think when when she announced it I I was like what like what does this mean I didn't
00:59:31know what I learned what masters were I didn't know anything
00:59:34um I didn't even know it was a thing to re-record your music so I was like okay so
00:59:40she's just gonna re-record them and put them out
00:59:42I had no idea she was gonna do these whole rollouts that were very reminiscent of the original rollouts
00:59:49I loved that when Fearless came out um it was so cool to experience that era now as an adult
00:59:58because I was eight years old when it happened
01:00:00I wasn't really a Swifty back then so I didn't get to experience the original rollout um so it was
01:00:06really cool
01:00:07because it we all got and then the people who were there got to relive it but from an entirely
01:00:12new perspective
01:00:14um so I loved it but I do remember people wondering like what is what does this mean like this
01:00:20is not going to be successful
01:00:22I I wouldn't be surprised if people told her not to do it like you're this is so dumb you
01:00:27know
01:00:27I mean it must have been so expensive and so hard yeah like just trying to match the like the
01:00:32exact tone
01:00:33of the guitar that you recorded 15 years ago feels truly impossible yeah um like props to
01:00:41all the musicians who worked on that yeah crazy they did such a good job and it's interesting because
01:00:47if you talk to Swifties they'll be like yeah I like this re-recording better I think this one was
01:00:51did a better job than than this one yeah I think it's also really hard when someone hears the same
01:00:56song
01:00:57over and over again and they're used to a very specific recording to try to get your ear used to
01:01:01a different thing is hard yeah but I think it I think it shows the strength of Swifties and like
01:01:08her fandom that she'd built that they were willing to go the lengths that it took to switch from their
01:01:13favorite masters their favorite songs of all time to listening to something new just to support her
01:01:18just as crazy and I know really awesome there were people who didn't like some of the uh the lyric
01:01:23change
01:01:24like better than revenge oh yeah it became like a big joke in fandom because everyone just like
01:01:30they don't listen to the or they they won't sing the new version of it that new lyric they still
01:01:37sing
01:01:37the old version of it that is so funny okay I feel like it's time to move on to the
01:01:43games okay okay so
01:01:45I have this first game I'm gonna have to move my little snow globe here this is my DIY wheel
01:01:51um you made
01:01:52this yourself I did make this myself very very much thank you uh she's beautiful don't look at her
01:01:57too close okay um okay but this is a game that we call spin the record we play it every
01:02:02time
01:02:02we do a show so spin the record let's see what it lands on we'll go from there
01:02:10okay so all right what do you think is the best eras tour surprise song okay well my my favorite
01:02:18is guilty as sin okay spin the wheel again let's see okay okay what is your favorite from the vault
01:02:28track all too well 10 minute I think it has to be I think that is one of her best
01:02:33written songs of
01:02:33all time I think that's right I mean and it was like a cultural moment yeah okay spin the wheel
01:02:41okay let's see okay what is on your mount rushmore of taylor swift eras reputation the tortured poets
01:02:51department because it was during the eras tour um so that kind of counts as the eras era 1989
01:02:59folklore okay okay it's an eclectic mix yeah usually I feel like the reputation girls are not the same as
01:03:06the folklore girls always yeah I am I'm everything I love it and I'm very much a tortured poets girl
01:03:13okay what is some advice that you give to another fan who is trying to make that into a business
01:03:18or
01:03:18career I would say put yourself in the account as much as you can um and build a relationship with
01:03:25your followers so that they get to know you and you get to know them and you know be very
01:03:29authentic
01:03:30don't try to force anything that doesn't feel natural um follow the passion and do it as a
01:03:36side thing until um you get a few brand deals and then you feel confident enough to leave
01:03:43whatever you're doing full-time and and making that more of a full-time and then yeah that that
01:03:48would probably be my advice awesome okay let's have you spin one more time okay what is a taylor swift
01:03:54easter egg that actually stumped you five holes in the fence is probably my favorite one so this was
01:04:00right before the lover album came out a few months before taylor posted a picture of herself behind
01:04:05this this fence and there were five holes in the fence long story short it seemed like there was
01:04:10a countdown I think day no day four she didn't post anything and people were like oh she forgot so
01:04:17it
01:04:17was four and then three I think was like there's three she's sitting on the third step or in this
01:04:23picture you're on the third stair swifties I swear we just like want to see what we want to see
01:04:29and we thought there was a countdown to an album and we were so wrong and so it was it
01:04:35became oh
01:04:35my god there were five holes in the fence but there were five holes in the fence like why did
01:04:38nothing
01:04:39happen oh and then months later when taylor was actually announcing the lover album five days before
01:04:47she posted the picture again the five holes in the fence and she said now there are five holes in
01:04:53the
01:04:53fence so wow yeah that that owns something wow that I think that they were certainly seeing what
01:04:59they wanted to see there for sure yeah okay so we will move on to a game that we play
01:05:04at the end of
01:05:05every episode of on the record which is called what would you cue so this is a special taylor's
01:05:10version of what would you cue what would you cue to represent your favorite taylor taylor swift album
01:05:17of the moment the prophecy oh I love that pick okay what would you cue to put a taylor swift
01:05:25skeptic
01:05:25onto her music peter it's so so random but that the storytelling in that song gets me every time
01:05:33okay what would you cue to summon the swifty fandom like a rallying cry ready for it
01:05:42what would you cue to convince someone that taylor swift is the best songwriter of her
01:05:47generation all too well 10 minute what would you cue to showcase taylor's most underrated song
01:05:53guilty as sin I do personally really love that song what would you cue to highlight the best
01:05:59track five in the taylor catalog you're on your own kid okay I like that answer yeah that's a good
01:06:05one
01:06:05yeah okay well thank you so much for coming olivia levin check out her book the story of us it's
01:06:11out
01:06:11now everywhere everywhere you buy your books amazing thanks so much for coming thank you for having me
01:06:16that was so fun all right thank you so much to olivia levin for coming on the show to discuss
01:06:20all things taylor swift in the business of fandom and thank you for listening to this week's episode
01:06:24of on the record if you like today's show give us a follow on instagram or on our brand new
01:06:29tiktok page
01:06:30at billboard on the record where you can find new clips of this show every single week we'd also
01:06:34appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform because all these things help on the
01:06:38record grow bigger and better than ever again I'm your host kristen robinson and tune in next week for
01:06:44another peek behind the curtain of the music business I'll see you then
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