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Malaysia's public housing programme, Program Perumahan Rakyat (PPRs), has long been seen as a success story because, for decades, it has provided homes for millions in cities, helping the country urbanise without the sprawling slums seen elsewhere. But a recently published book by Think City, ‘From Roof to Resilience: A Social Assessment of Malaysia’s Public Housing’ is highlighting that a ‘second generation’ of issues is emerging because the next challenge for PPRs isn’t just about roofs, walls, or housing supply, but also about the communities’ wellbeing and social cohesion in the neighbourhoods. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Shahridan Faiez, Technical Director at Think City. He’s also the Director of Program Kita-untuk-Kita (K2K), which is a community empowerment program spearheaded by Think City, and funded by the Ministry of Finance.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Music
00:11Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and reconsider what you know of the news of the
00:18day.
00:19Today we'll focus on Malaysia's Public Housing Program, PPR's Program Perumahan Rakyat.
00:25The program has long been seen as a success story because for decades, PPR's have provided homes for millions of
00:35people in cities,
00:36helping Malaysia urbanize without all those sprawling slums that you see elsewhere.
00:42But in a recently published book by ThinkCity, they have highlighted a second generation of issues emerging
00:50because for PPR's, the next challenge isn't just about roofs or walls or more housing supply.
00:58It's also about the community's well-being and social cohesion of the neighbourhoods there.
01:04So joining me on the show today to talk a little bit about the new book,
01:07From Roof to Resilience, A Social Assessment of Malaysia's Public Housing,
01:12I have with me Dr. Shahri Dam Faiz, who is Technical Director at ThinkCity.
01:16He is also the director of the program Kita Untuk Kita or K2K, which is spearheaded by ThinkCity and funded
01:23by the Ministry of Finance.
01:24So welcome to the show, Dr. Shah. It's good of you to join me.
01:27Thank you very much, Melissa.
01:29Very excited to talk about this very beautiful book.
01:31But before we do get into it, I think what would be quite helpful for me and also for the
01:35audience
01:36is if you could briefly walk us through Malaysia's Public Housing Program and the evolution of it.
01:42When it started, what it was designed to do and maybe we can end at where it is now.
01:49Okay, thank you.
01:50Well, it's interesting because Malaysia's Public Housing is actually a development success story.
01:57Many people may not realise but, you know, in the 1970s,
02:04about 30% of Kuala Lumpur was actually covered by slums or what you call informal settlements.
02:10And this is not surprising given the rapid rate of urbanisation Malaysia has experienced.
02:17Now, if you go and visit other countries, you would see that countries that have experienced rapid urbanisation
02:22also struggle with the problem of slums.
02:26You know, and you see, you know, informal settlements under the bridge, you know, by the highway and so on.
02:31Are you referring to like Rumah Stinggan at the time?
02:34Correct, correct. Rumah Stinggan, yeah.
02:36So, now, you go anywhere around the big cities today, whether it's Kuala Lumpur or Johor Bahru or Penang,
02:44you would hardly see any slums, you know.
02:47And that really is because we have been successful to house our urban poor, you know.
02:53And this really happened, the big push happened after the Asian financial crisis in 1998.
03:01So, many states actually imposed a policy called Zero Slums, you know, or Setinggan Sifar.
03:11Okay.
03:12And it was done, you could say, from a technocratic point of view, it was done very efficiently.
03:18So much so that today you don't see any slums, you know.
03:21So, we've done well.
03:22We've been able to relocate our urban poor into modern public housing.
03:28And, of course, when you relocate them, you know, they also experience an increase in their standard of living, you
03:34know.
03:34So, of course, today you get access to clean water.
03:38At the click of a switch, you get electricity, you know.
03:40There are schools nearby, there are health services nearby.
03:44So, overall standard of living has gone up.
03:46So, that's why we say it has been a successful public policy.
03:50And it certainly has played a role in Malaysia's impressive economic growth, you know,
03:57in basically bringing down levels of poverty to below 10% or even below 5%.
04:04Right.
04:04Okay.
04:04So, that was how it was designed.
04:06But now, time has been two, three decades.
04:11So, there is, according to the report, there's a second generation of challenges.
04:15So, let's talk a little bit about that.
04:17When, talk to me about what you and your team were seeking to explore through your research,
04:23through the findings.
04:24What were you seeking to document?
04:27So, as we have said, we've been successful in building houses, right?
04:31So, what we want to do today or this time around is to look at what's happening in these houses,
04:37you know.
04:37What's happening to the communities who live there, you know.
04:40So, we developed this approach called the social assessment.
04:43Okay.
04:44Which is to look at the social impact of our public housing policy.
04:50So, we spent about six months looking at 2,884 households in 10 different public housing projects
04:59located in the Klang Valley region.
05:02And, of course, these 10 projects are part of our program K2K.
05:06Yeah.
05:07Maybe I should say something about program K2K.
05:10Yes, please, please.
05:10Explain to us.
05:11So, program Kita Untuk Kita, and you've been working on this for quite some time.
05:14So, tell us, introduce us to it.
05:16Yeah.
05:16So, program Kita Untuk Kita or K2K was launched by PM in the middle of 2023.
05:24And, basically, we were asked to implement what you would call a path-finding project.
05:30Because these problems that we have today in our public housing is nothing new.
05:36It's been there for quite some time.
05:38It's just that we've not been able to successfully address them, you know.
05:42So, we've been asked to do a path-finding program to be able to, number one, understand
05:47what are the issues impacting the communities living in PPR.
05:51Okay.
05:52Secondly, to be able to develop or innovate new approaches or new methodologies for improving the situation.
05:59And, of course, thirdly, to be able to identify policy reform initiatives
06:04that the government needs to take up, you know, to improve the situation.
06:07Okay.
06:07So, those are the three key objectives of program Kita Untuk Kita.
06:12Okay.
06:12So, out of the first objective, which is to do the diagnostics, we have now produced this report.
06:20This is part one.
06:20This is the first pillar.
06:21This is part one.
06:21The first pillar of it.
06:22Yes.
06:23Okay.
06:23So, let's understand the issue.
06:25You say this is not something new.
06:28What did you discover that was material to understanding the realities of the people who lived in PPR households?
06:39Talk to me a little bit about what the residents themselves told you about their daily experiences
06:44living in public housing in Malaysia.
06:46Sure.
06:47No, I think, first of all, you know, when we did our survey, and this was a mixed method.
06:52So, we did both household surveys.
06:54We used qualitative approaches.
06:56We did ethnographic studies, spatial analysis, and so on.
06:59And we found, you know, of course, alarmingly, about more than 60% say that their quality of life
07:07has either not improved or actually declined since COVID.
07:12We found that about 70% of the household survey, you know, are vulnerable to economic shocks.
07:24And we found that, for example, 75% of those surveyed say that their stress levels have either
07:31not improved or have actually declined since the last COVID pandemic, you know.
07:37So, these are all some quite concerning indicators, you know, that all's not well, you know.
07:43And, of course, when we dig deeper to understand what's actually happening, you could sum it up as
07:47living in public housing today is like living in a pressure cooker, you know.
07:53You face multiple challenges, you know, everything from crime spaces to public hygiene and cleanliness issues
08:03to public safety issues to economic stress and to conflicts, you know.
08:12Let me give you an example.
08:15So, what we found is that the issues, they are multiple.
08:18There are multiple people, they are complex and they are interconnected.
08:24So, there was one day when we did a survey, it was quite late at night, and I saw an
08:28Abang
08:29Grad coming home, right.
08:31So, before I could approach him, I saw him push his motorbike into the lift up to the eighth floor.
08:37So, I was like, wow, you know, that's not supposed to be done, right.
08:41Yeah, taking your motorbike up, yeah.
08:43So, I chased after him and I sort of accosted him, you know.
08:46I said, look, you know, why did you do this?
08:48You know that when you do this, it will damage the lifts, right.
08:52And when it damages the lift, you know,
08:54kasihan Makcik Minah, kan, or Uncle Chong over there, you know.
08:58You might have someone who's a disabled or a 65-year-old elderly person
09:03or a single mother with lots of kids, if they can't use the lifts,
09:07it's a huge burden on their life, kan.
09:11And the boy that I approached, you know, he bowed his head and he said,
09:15you're right, you know, I know what I did is wrong, but I don't have a choice.
09:21Because if I leave my motorbike downstairs, next morning it may not be there.
09:28Or at minimum, the next morning, my petrol would have been stolen, you know.
09:33So, in this small example I've just given, you can see how the issues are interrelated.
09:39You know, a problem of public safety is linked to somebody's livelihood,
09:44which then is linked to other people's difficulty of leading their life.
09:48Accessibility, yeah.
09:49Yes.
09:49So, we see the same thing happening in many other sectors, you know.
09:54For example, we interviewed little girls, right,
09:59and asked them to draw, they did this cognitive mapping exercise, you know,
10:02and they drew all the different spaces in their PPR which are deemed to be safe or unsafe.
10:09And what was surprising was to find that places like playgrounds, you know,
10:14places like the public spaces, you know, recreational spaces and so on,
10:20were deemed to be unsafe by these little girls.
10:22And not surprisingly, when we interviewed their parents, you know,
10:25their parents basically had an attitude that, you know,
10:27my little girl is not going downstairs to play because it's too dangerous for her.
10:31So, what happens is that then they stay at home, right.
10:33They are not going down, they are not interacting, they are not socializing.
10:36And that will certainly have an impact on their mental and development and well-being.
10:44So, you can again see, you know, how interrelated these issues are, right.
10:47And of course, if their development is impacted, then, you know,
10:51later on in school they will be impacted and, you know,
10:53their job prospects will be impacted and so on.
10:55And this raises a very fundamental question then
10:59that comes back to the purpose of our PPR.
11:03Okay, before we get into the purpose, can I just ask you to,
11:06maybe this is a related question about the purpose.
11:09Can you explain who lives in PPRs and how did they come to live there?
11:15Okay. So, as I mentioned earlier, the, you know,
11:19as Malaysia experienced rapid urbanization,
11:22so you have an influx of people coming into the cities
11:26from other parts of the country.
11:28I mean, you may still remember this popular book by Ludd called Matsum.
11:33What?
11:33Yes.
11:33And it captures beautifully that whole process, you know,
11:37of urban in-migration.
11:40And of course, when they come, there's no place to live,
11:43there's not enough housing.
11:45So, people set up their own informal settlements, right?
11:48And as I mentioned, in the 1970s, you know,
11:51it was very significant, you know,
11:52about a third of the city was actually covered by informal settlements.
11:56Now, as the country developed, right,
12:00and we begin to put in place very effective strategies to relocate them.
12:06So, what you find today, people who live there,
12:08are people who used to live in these informal settlements.
12:12But today, 20 or 30 years later,
12:15their children are also growing up in this new public housing estates, right?
12:22And so, they are growing up in a totally new environment
12:26and totally new social dynamics compared to what their parents had experienced before.
12:33And what we found is that one of the concerning issues
12:38where the social environment is concerned
12:40is the fact that there's very low social cohesion.
12:44So, neighbours don't know one another.
12:47There's very low trust between neighbours.
12:51And in fact, there's actually a lot of what's called latent conflict, you know.
12:55And this is best manifested when you visit the PPR,
13:01you would see one issue very visibly is the problem of littering.
13:07So, people are throwing rubbish indiscriminately, you know,
13:12and it's everywhere.
13:13So, it shows that there's no sense of belonging, you know.
13:17And not only is there no sense of belonging,
13:19people are also not, you know, chiding one another,
13:22you know, working together as neighbours to make sure that,
13:26you know, my house, my home, my neighbourhood is beautiful and clean, you know.
13:31Because people are unable to do that when they don't have a relationship.
13:35So, that's what we found through our social assessment.
13:38So, social cohesion is low.
13:41Now, another factor why social cohesion is low
13:44is also because given the stressful conditions of life,
13:49people have developed, you know, strategies to improve.
13:54Coping strategies to improve.
13:56But some of these are quite interesting in that
13:59they set up community-based organisations, right.
14:03But these community-based organisations
14:05tend to only cater for their own social network, right.
14:09So, they end up competing with one another
14:11for state resources.
14:14This also contributes to the breakdown in social cohesion.
14:17The latent conflict, as you talk about.
14:19Yeah. So, that's what's called elite capture happening
14:21at the local level, you know, because of this.
14:25So, in order to address this,
14:28you actually need to develop new approaches,
14:30new methodologies on how to bring people together
14:34around a common platform.
14:35Which is K2K, which is Kita Untuk Kita.
14:38And that's what Kita Untuk Kita is all about.
14:40Yeah. So, in Kita Untuk Kita, what we've done is
14:43we've organised them on a platform called
14:45the Forum Community.
14:47Yeah.
14:48Or, in short, it's called ForCom.
14:50Okay.
14:51So, the ForCom is an important platform
14:56that brings together all these different parties.
14:59So, your Pesatuan Penduduk is there,
15:01your KRT is there,
15:03your Surau Community is there,
15:05the Sewing Circle is there, and so on and so forth, you know.
15:08And we try to bring all the local leaders together
15:10so that they can sit down and deliberate
15:13on common issues.
15:15And very often, when you're able to facilitate
15:18a process like that,
15:20you get a positive response, you know.
15:23And, you know, over the last two and a half years,
15:26we've been implementing programme K2K.
15:29You know, we've been really heartened
15:31and really encouraged, you know,
15:32by the amazing positive results that we've seen.
15:36So, I can give you an example.
15:38So, we had this programme
15:39in one of the most challenging PPRs in the country,
15:42you know, in Selangor.
15:47And we asked them,
15:48we organised the ForCom,
15:50then we asked them,
15:50look, you know,
15:51what do you want to do,
15:52you know, to be able to begin
15:54to improve your living space?
15:56And they came up with this idea
15:58of doing a competition
16:01to beautify and clean
16:03their lift lobby.
16:05Okay.
16:06So, think about it this way.
16:08Before the programme,
16:10the lift lobby was
16:12purely a transit space.
16:14You know, you come home
16:16late from work,
16:17tired,
16:17you go up to your floor,
16:19you come out,
16:20walk across your lift lobby
16:22and go home.
16:22You don't even think about it.
16:23And very often,
16:24the lift lobby is grimy,
16:26there's no lighting,
16:28you know,
16:28people live rubbish over there,
16:30you know,
16:30and so on.
16:32You go there today,
16:34and it's a bright
16:36and beautiful
16:37and wonderfully decorated space.
16:39In some places,
16:40they even put benches
16:41for ladies to sit down.
16:44But more important than that,
16:46not only was it transformed physically,
16:49it's now become a new social space.
16:51So, from a transit space,
16:53it's become a social space.
16:55And so, you know,
16:56children have Quranic classes there.
16:58You know,
16:59there was even an engagement ceremony there.
17:02Kids do their homework there
17:03or they play there
17:04or ladies come sit down
17:06and membawang there, you know.
17:08So, it's become a very vibrant
17:09and important social space
17:11in an otherwise
17:13pressure cooker environment.
17:15So, what did that teach you,
17:16Dr. Shah,
17:17about how the community
17:20can come together?
17:21How can that be replicated at scale?
17:24Yeah.
17:25I think the key lesson here
17:26is that the solution
17:28to the problems you find
17:29in the PPR
17:30actually lies with the community.
17:32Okay.
17:32You know.
17:33So, what you need to do
17:34is to look at them
17:35not as a problem,
17:36but as an asset.
17:38You know.
17:38And you need to be able
17:40to unlock that asset.
17:42And you unlock that
17:43through a certain methodology
17:45of organising them
17:46and instilling in them
17:48that confidence
17:48that they can actually solve
17:50some of these
17:51common problems.
17:53Not every problem
17:54can be solved by them.
17:56You know,
17:56some big ones especially
17:57need the authorities
17:59to deal with.
17:59But many of these,
18:01especially related to rubbish,
18:03related to public safety,
18:05living conditions,
18:07they can have mental health,
18:08they can actually do it
18:10themselves.
18:11Okay.
18:12So, to empower them
18:13to see this
18:14as their neighbourhood,
18:15as their community.
18:17Can I bring us back
18:18to something you said
18:19a bit earlier?
18:20You talked about
18:21what is the purpose
18:22of public housing?
18:23We have to go back
18:24to the resident
18:25of public housing.
18:27What I understood
18:28public housing to be
18:29was more than just shelter.
18:32It was essentially
18:33a pathway out of poverty
18:35for the underprivileged.
18:39Can you maybe
18:40set the record
18:41of how do you see
18:42what the purpose
18:43of public housing was
18:44and is it fit
18:45for purpose today?
18:46Yeah.
18:47No, I think
18:48the original intent
18:49of public housing
18:51was to act
18:52as a platform
18:53for social mobility.
18:55Social mobility.
18:56Okay.
18:57So, I mean,
18:57the country cannot develop
18:58if a certain portion
19:00of the population
19:01is living in squalor,
19:03living in informal settlements.
19:05So, you need to make sure
19:06that they're able
19:07to live in proper homes
19:09and then they can then
19:10begin to develop themselves
19:12and the country
19:12will benefit because of that.
19:14But what we're finding today
19:16is that this social mobility
19:19is not happening
19:20or it's not happening
19:21at the rate
19:21that it should.
19:23I'll give you some examples.
19:25So, in our survey,
19:26we found that
19:27more than 60%
19:29of the residents
19:31have been living there
19:32for between 10 to 30 years.
19:34Oh, wow.
19:35So, more than half
19:36have been living there
19:37for a long time.
19:39So, multiple generations
19:40under one roof, actually.
19:42No, no.
19:42Then we also found
19:43that 7.5% of households
19:45are what's called
19:46multi-generational.
19:47Multi-generational.
19:47So, grandparents
19:48and grandkids
19:50are also living together
19:51in a very small space.
19:53And what that suggests
19:54is that these families
19:56may not be able
19:58to actually exit.
19:59It's not that
20:00they don't want to leave
20:01but they can't leave.
20:02And it raises the question
20:04whether our public housing,
20:06is it functioning
20:07as a platform
20:09for social mobility
20:10or is it actually
20:11becoming a poverty trap?
20:13So, these are some
20:14very serious questions
20:15that we need to ask ourselves.
20:17Because there are two things.
20:19One is,
20:21if it's unable
20:22to generate
20:23social mobility,
20:25then it's failing
20:26to meet its original intent.
20:28That's point number one.
20:29Point number two,
20:30if you're unable
20:31to ensure
20:32that people are able
20:33to leave their public housing
20:35because they're able
20:36to graduate,
20:37then it means
20:38there's going to be
20:38less housing space
20:40available
20:40for the new generations
20:42of people
20:42who are coming through
20:43and who need housing.
20:45So, we really need
20:46to tackle this issue
20:48with the seriousness
20:50that it requires.
20:51Why do you think
20:52that it has failed
20:54to facilitate
20:56social mobility?
20:58I think the fundamental
20:59problem here
21:00is that
21:01there has been,
21:02you could say,
21:03a policy ambiguity.
21:06So, when you look
21:06at the policy documents,
21:08very often,
21:09public housing
21:10is described as
21:11transit housing.
21:12Transit.
21:13And when I ask,
21:14what does it mean,
21:14transit housing?
21:15People say,
21:16well, normally,
21:17you live there
21:17for five years
21:18and then you're
21:19expected to leave
21:21and stay in your
21:22own permanent housing.
21:23Clearly,
21:24that's not happening.
21:26Now, secondly,
21:28there's the issue
21:30of exit strategy.
21:33So, you've been
21:34successful in relocating
21:36the urban poor
21:37into public housing.
21:39But have you been
21:40successful in
21:41implementing
21:42your exit strategy?
21:45Then the next question
21:46is,
21:47is there an
21:47exit strategy?
21:49And what we find
21:50is that
21:51there doesn't seem
21:52to be a clear
21:53exit strategy
21:54for people who
21:55live in our
21:55public housing.
21:56So,
21:57what is obvious
21:58to us is that
21:59at the policy level,
22:01there are many
22:02different policies
22:03that may have
22:04worked well
22:05in the early
22:06phases
22:08of the development
22:09and very successful
22:10in housing
22:12the urban poor
22:13in basically
22:14providing a roof
22:15over their heads.
22:16which is why
22:17I really like
22:18the title of
22:19this book,
22:19From Roof to
22:20Resilience.
22:20Maybe you can
22:21tell us about
22:21that and tie it
22:23into what
22:24are the policy
22:25recommendations
22:25that the book
22:27is proposing.
22:28Simply because
22:29we are building
22:30more public
22:31housing,
22:32we're building
22:32more roofs,
22:33but are we
22:34looking at the
22:35resilience part?
22:36Absolutely,
22:37you've hit the
22:38nail on the
22:39head.
22:40So,
22:41moving forward,
22:42we know how
22:44to do public
22:45housing.
22:45We can build
22:46public housing.
22:47We can do it,
22:48yes.
22:48We do it very
22:48well.
22:49But now we need
22:50to start looking
22:51at how to
22:53ensure that the
22:54communities there
22:54are resilient,
22:56that the communities
22:57there are healthy,
22:58that they live
22:59happy,
22:59fulfilling lives.
23:01That's the part
23:02that needs a lot
23:03of attention today.
23:04And it has to do
23:05with public policy
23:06because it also
23:07has to do with
23:07public investments.
23:09So,
23:10it's not enough
23:11just to invest
23:12in physical
23:13infrastructure.
23:14You also need
23:15to invest in
23:16social infrastructure.
23:17You need to invest
23:18in how to
23:19organize communities.
23:21You need to invest
23:22in creating
23:23new social assets
23:24so that people
23:24know how to
23:25interact with
23:26one another.
23:26People can have
23:27a say in
23:29the management
23:30of their
23:31public housing.
23:32And people
23:33are able to
23:34play a
23:35constructive role
23:36in their own
23:38personal development
23:39to be able to
23:40graduate from
23:41public housing
23:42into more
23:43permanent housing.
23:45So,
23:45all that requires
23:47coordinated
23:49and effective
23:50policy prescriptions.
23:52Is that difficult?
23:52Because it seems
23:53to me that you
23:53have quite
23:54succinctly
23:55diagnosed the
23:56problem.
23:56But is the
23:57prescription more
23:59difficult?
23:59Is the
24:00medicine more
24:01difficult?
24:02I don't think
24:03so.
24:04So,
24:04in our book
24:05here,
24:06we actually
24:07try to describe
24:08it and we
24:08call it the
24:08three R's.
24:09So,
24:10the first one
24:11is to rebuild
24:12community.
24:13So,
24:14the idea here
24:15is to give
24:16recognition to
24:17the fact that
24:18the communities
24:20play a key
24:21role,
24:22in fact,
24:22a critical
24:23role in the
24:25sustainability of
24:25our public
24:26housing.
24:27So,
24:27we need to
24:28invest in
24:29building this
24:30community,
24:31giving them
24:31the capabilities
24:32to be able to
24:33manage themselves
24:34and to uplift
24:35their condition.
24:37The second one
24:38is called
24:38reframing
24:39management.
24:40And the
24:41reason is
24:42because management
24:43today is
24:45fragmented.
24:46And there's a
24:48lot of
24:49confusion about
24:50roles and
24:51responsibilities and
24:52certainly a key
24:55absence in
24:55accountabilities.
24:57So,
24:58we need to
24:59reframe
24:59management.
25:00And in
25:01reframing
25:02management,
25:02there must be
25:03a role for
25:04the communities
25:05also.
25:05So,
25:06we need to
25:06promote this
25:07idea of
25:07co-management.
25:09So,
25:10that when
25:10officials,
25:11today,
25:12officials tend
25:12to be upward
25:13accountable,
25:14they need to
25:15be actually
25:15downward
25:16accountable,
25:17accountable to
25:18the residents
25:18who live
25:19there.
25:20And of
25:20course,
25:21the third
25:21thing is
25:21reform.
25:22So,
25:22we need to
25:23reform policy.
25:24Now,
25:25the issue
25:25we have here
25:26today is
25:26we have
25:27public
25:28housing policy
25:29that is
25:30in dire
25:31need of
25:32an upgrade.
25:35And in
25:35doing the
25:36upgrade,
25:36we need to
25:37actually do
25:37some key
25:38studies to
25:39analyze
25:40where are
25:41the gaps,
25:41where are
25:42the contradictions,
25:44what is now
25:45outdated,
25:46and what are
25:47the new
25:47things that
25:47we need to
25:48put into
25:48play,
25:49so that we
25:50have a
25:50much more
25:50integrated,
25:51a much
25:52more unified,
25:53and certainly
25:55much more
25:56clear policy
25:57about where
25:58we want
25:59to go.
25:59So,
26:00in policy
26:01making,
26:02clarity of
26:02purpose is
26:03very important.
26:05And that's
26:05what we
26:06need to
26:07be able to
26:07achieve moving
26:09forward.
26:09So,
26:10from that,
26:11I take it
26:11that this is
26:12only the
26:12very beginning,
26:13the very
26:13first step,
26:14that there
26:14will be
26:14several other
26:15steps where
26:16you look at
26:16all the
26:17different
26:18approaches and
26:18the policy
26:19reform that's
26:19needed.
26:20I look
26:20forward to
26:21coming back
26:22and revisiting
26:22this topic
26:23with you.
26:23Thank you so
26:24much,
26:24Dr. Shah,
26:24for being
26:24on this
26:25show.
26:25Thank you,
26:25Melissa.
26:26That's all
26:26the time we
26:27have for you
26:27on this
26:28episode of
26:29Consider This.
26:29I'm Melissa
26:30Idris,
26:30signing off
26:31for the
26:31evening.
26:32Thank you
26:32so much for
26:32watching,
26:33and good
26:33night.
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