- 2 days ago
The Best of Bob Lazar on JRE
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00:01You used to work at Area 51.
00:04Well, you know, we want to be accurate.
00:06Okay.
00:06Area S4.
00:07S4, okay.
00:08It's about 15 miles south of Area 51.
00:11Before that, I had worked at Los Alamos National Labs in New Mexico.
00:15And you were involved in what kind of work?
00:17Nuclear weapon development, physics.
00:19I mean, they do everything there.
00:21So how do they approach you to say,
00:24Hey, Bob, why don't you come on out to the Nevada desert?
00:27Well, the way this went down was, at that time, it was 1982.
00:31I'd put a jet engine in my Honda.
00:34Los Alamos, put it on the front page of the paper.
00:36Los Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this 200 mile an hour Honda jet car.
00:41I drove to work every day.
00:43The day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller,
00:48the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab.
00:52I went down there early and Ed Teller was outside leaning on a brick wall there
00:56and reading the front page of the paper.
00:58Now this is a guy out of history.
00:59So I introduced myself.
01:01Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there.
01:02And we talked for a little while and it was cool.
01:04You know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas.
01:07And had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things.
01:11And I wanted to get back into the scientific community.
01:13I sent resumes out and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting.
01:17He remembered me and gave me a reference, somebody to contact at EG&G.
01:21And that's pretty much how it started.
01:23Went down for an interview probably a couple times.
01:25And it was down at EG&G Special Projects, which was at McCarran Airport at that time out in Las
01:32Vegas.
01:32And did they give you any sort of job description of what you were applying for?
01:36I think it was advanced propulsion or something like that.
01:40Something relatively generic.
01:41And they said it's in a remote area, some days on, some days off.
01:45It was kind of not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to be out there for two
01:50weeks at a time and take two weeks off.
01:52So it was kind of a, the work schedule would be kind of broken up.
01:57So take me back to first day on the job.
01:59The first day really, I didn't really get to see a whole lot.
02:02The first day was essentially just paperwork.
02:04That's when I flew into Area 51 proper.
02:07When did things get weird?
02:08The first inkling I had was when I came in.
02:12There's this facility that is at S4.
02:15It's in the side of a mountain.
02:18And normally we had pulled in with the bus and gone around the front through a normal double door.
02:24This time that I went in, there were hangar doors open.
02:27I went into the hangar door and in the hangar door was the disc, the flying saucer that I worked
02:32on.
02:33I saw it sitting there and we walked by it.
02:36It had a little American flag stuck on the side.
02:38And I thought, oh my God, this finally explains all the flying saucer stories.
02:42This is just an advanced fighter.
02:44And this is fucking hilarious.
02:46I went by, I slid my hand alongside it.
02:48I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing.
02:51And there was a guy, an armed guard that followed us in and just said,
02:54keep your eyes forward and your hands at your side and just walk in the door.
02:59So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird.
03:03It was sometime later that I was introduced to my lab partner, Barry.
03:08And we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab.
03:11Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner.
03:14So he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things.
03:17And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention
03:23to where this is technology that doesn't even exist.
03:28I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different.
03:31What was it?
03:32This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere about the size of a basketball on a metal
03:38plate.
03:39And when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own.
03:45Now, this is something that we can't do.
03:47We can't produce any gravity.
03:49The only way we get gravity is from large quantities of mass.
03:53But there's no machine we can have that turns on that makes gravity.
03:56Like, you know, you can turn on an electromagnet and it makes a magnetic field.
04:00We can't make a gravitational field.
04:03Anyway, this device was producing that.
04:05And Barry said, almost like he was bragging, go ahead, try and touch the sphere.
04:11And I couldn't.
04:12It pushed my hands away, just like two light poles of a magnet.
04:16The closer you put them, the more they push.
04:17And you felt that physically with your hand?
04:18With my hand.
04:19Yeah.
04:19Now, there's nothing that does that.
04:21How did they turn it on?
04:23The reactor?
04:24Yeah.
04:24The reactor can be turned on or turned off in a lot of different ways.
04:27The way Barry showed me, the hemisphere is removed.
04:31There's a small tower in the middle.
04:32When you put the hemisphere on, the reactor activates.
04:35The reactor shuts down.
04:36It's load sensing.
04:39So if there's no load on the reactor at all, it shuts down.
04:43When there's a load present on it, it starts up again.
04:46Load meaning?
04:47You can consider it an electrical load.
04:49Although it doesn't necessarily operate electrically.
04:53There's no wiring that connects any of the subcomponents together whatsoever.
04:57They just have to be in the immediate vicinity.
04:59The way this reactor worked and that these things were not really connected.
05:05No, nothing is connected.
05:07There's no wiring at all.
05:12That freaks me the fuck out.
05:13The stuff is borderline magic.
05:15So there's a plate, there's this thing that looks like half a basketball, and when it's
05:19on, you can't come anywhere near it.
05:21You can't touch it.
05:22Right.
05:23What is gravity about that?
05:26The concept of gravity to most people is gravity is bringing something towards it.
05:30Right.
05:30Well, I guess you would say it's anti-gravity.
05:32It's gravity shifted 180 degrees.
05:35It's, you know, anti-gravity.
05:38Did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect?
05:43They knew there was a fuel source in it.
05:46And they were proficient at making it work.
05:50And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon
05:55train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place.
06:00Everybody will come around it and they'll poke and prod.
06:02And eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start, and become proficient at riding
06:06it.
06:07But they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on.
06:11They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else.
06:14And I think that's exactly the state we were at.
06:17We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the
06:21reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work.
06:27How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time.
06:34I don't think anybody really knew anything.
06:36They could just watch what was going on and make note of it.
06:39How long were you there?
06:41I'd say about six months or so.
06:43And what progress was made while you were there?
06:47Well, we came up with a bunch of reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked.
06:52And one of them was the base, the square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron,
06:58which is a small particle accelerator, a circular one.
07:01Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators are just a, you know, long tube essentially
07:07and they accelerate particles with high voltage and, you know, radio frequencies till they reach high speeds.
07:12But a cyclotron does that in a small circular area.
07:16And there's this very heavy element fuel, element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time.
07:25But it is now.
07:26It is now, yeah.
07:27When did it become on the periodic table now, the way the charts now?
07:31You know, I don't remember.
07:32Do you remember when they...
07:342004, Dermstadt, Germany, I think is where they first fabricated four atoms.
07:38It lasted 220 milliseconds with the atoms.
07:41It's nothing, right?
07:42And then it later was discovered a couple more times they could fabricate it.
07:46Then they gave it, they gave it a place then on the periodic chart after that called it Muscovium.
07:51So they told you about this stuff in 1982?
07:57Yeah, well, we kind of...
07:59What year was this?
08:00It was 88 and 89 when I was there.
08:0382 is when I was in Los Alamos.
08:06I'm sorry.
08:06Yeah.
08:07So 88, 89, they told you about this stuff.
08:09So this was not like...
08:10No, they didn't, they didn't tell me about it.
08:12That's one of the things that this group came up with.
08:15This element 115 was the fuel.
08:17Yeah, it was the fuel.
08:19There's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said.
08:22But over time, many of the things that you talked about even in the 80s have proven to be true.
08:29Element 115 was one of them.
08:31Right.
08:31At the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't
08:37real.
08:38What was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?
08:44Well, everything was impossible.
08:45Right.
08:46I mean, down to the metal, I did get a chance to look inside the craft on only one occasion.
08:53And this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates
09:02without any interconnections.
09:04So the placement of components might be critical.
09:07So they allowed me to go inside and and look at it.
09:11But you're going into this craft.
09:12And what are you thinking when you're inside of it?
09:15Like, what are you seeing?
09:16It's it's a very ominous feeling because it's there are no at first of all, everything is one color.
09:25It's like a dark pewter color and there are no right angles anywhere.
09:30It's as if somebody took.
09:32I've said this before.
09:34Somebody took a model out of and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short
09:40time.
09:40So everything melted.
09:41Everything looks like it's fused together.
09:43Everything has a radius of curvature where two items meet.
09:47It's it's a really weird looking thing.
09:51There was almost nothing other than a small foldable hatchway that that looked recognizable.
09:59Everything was was really unworldly to pick on a way to describe it.
10:05So you you get inside this thing and it's designed for something that's much smaller than a human being.
10:11Yeah, you can't really stand up till you get to the very center of it.
10:14How tall are you?
10:15I'm 5'10".
10:16And what do you think this was designed for?
10:18I'd say something close to half my height.
10:21Wow.
10:22So these little three foot tall ish creatures.
10:25Yeah.
10:26And the seats were small, too.
10:28I mean, obviously, it was made, you know, for something, something small.
10:32But there is no like there's there's nothing else in there.
10:36There's just seats, the reactor and some of the sub components.
10:40There's no there's no control panels.
10:41There's no bathroom.
10:42There's no no decorative components or artwork or anything that you would recognize or trim.
10:50I mean, it's just a very bare bones thing.
10:52You're not seeing any screens.
10:54Well, there are archways around it that are part of the superstructure and that one of the archways can become
11:02transparent.
11:03When I was in there, there was another group working on one of the archways and you could call that
11:10a screen more or less.
11:12So through that archway, it would be it would maintain the solidity, the solid whatever metal it was.
11:20Yeah.
11:21But you could see through it.
11:22Yeah, it just became transparent.
11:23Yeah.
11:23I saw that happen once or twice before I left.
11:26Did you ask any questions about what the fuck that was?
11:28No, there's no asking questions.
11:29There's no asking questions.
11:30No.
11:30And I don't know if the craft is made of, you know, an advanced metal or a ceramic.
11:35It was cold to the touch.
11:37So, you know, I would lean more towards the metal.
11:40You're not allowed to ask questions.
11:42No, the only they work on the buddy system.
11:45So I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry.
11:49Now, this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion.
11:55And ideally, you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems.
11:59And that's how things move forward.
12:00But they're so over the top concerned about security.
12:04They split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant.
12:09It just destroys any of the progress you can make or at least makes it go so slow.
12:17I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.
12:20Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a jet powered
12:26Honda to come in and see what he could do.
12:28I think that was an act of desperation.
12:30I think they wanted someone that thinks out of the box and let's just give this guy a try here
12:35because they weren't.
12:36And they might have done this four more times since, you know, up to the point in time today, assuming
12:42they're still working on this thing.
12:44And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they
12:52would use to control it to pilot?
12:54Was there a pilot seat?
12:56There were three seats.
12:58They sat around.
13:00The reactor was in the dead center of it.
13:03And then equidistant around there were three seats.
13:06And that's all.
13:08There was a large, you would, they're not consoles.
13:11There are large rectangular objects also spaced equidistant around the center.
13:18There's nothing on them.
13:19There's no buttons.
13:20There's no lights.
13:21There's no control.
13:21And they look the same color, the same thing.
13:22Everything is the same color.
13:24It's just a different shape.
13:24Right.
13:24And directly underneath them, there's three levels in the craft.
13:30The main level is what we're talking about.
13:33Directly under that, those are the gravity amplifiers, the big rectangular objects.
13:38Underneath them are the gravity emitters that look like, for lack of a better word, a trash can hanging on
13:44a pipe.
13:44Three of those.
13:46And then the top layer, I, this is just my personal belief.
13:50I think that has to do with a, a navigation or their version of a computer with some planar panels,
13:58sensor panels around the craft that we would call portholes, but they're not portholes.
14:03They're just black areas.
14:04And I think that just determines its, you know, position in space.
14:08But I was, I, I physically was in the center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom section
14:16and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.
14:20What is the, the, roughly the size of this thing?
14:23It's a, I think it, I don't remember from being there, but, um, after all this stuff was over, I
14:29had, uh, John Andrews, a guy from the testers model corporation.
14:33And, you know, we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw, um, and known sizes of
14:41things.
14:41And we came up with 52 feet in diameter.
14:45So it's fairly small.
14:46Yeah.
14:46So I think that's a fair, a reasonable guess.
14:50It, it violated a lot of what we thought was impossible to violate.
14:54I mean, one of the first laws of thermodynamics, I mean, essentially any machine, any device that operates always makes
15:01extra heat.
15:02Nothing works at a hundred percent efficient.
15:05Even the headphones you're wearing, anything that takes power, some of that power is going to be converted to heat
15:12and it's just wasted.
15:14This didn't.
15:15I mean, we looked at, back then we had infrared cameras.
15:18They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down
15:23and, um, and get these infrared images you've seen.
15:27But it never got, no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature,
15:35which is impossible.
15:36I mean, you're, you know, pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.
15:43Um, we tried measuring magnetic fields and there was, was nothing there.
15:48So we started playing around with the, uh, emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we
15:55could do with it and how it was focused.
15:57So we really spent all our time just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can
16:05control.
16:06So you were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?
16:11No, not really.
16:12I mean, we really, we really could only use a, or come up with a best guess.
16:17And now I can't say we really, that I could absolutely state for certainly, or certainty, how anything actually worked.
16:27What is your life like from that moment on? Is that where everything changes?
16:31I would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being,
16:38something where you can actually absolutely be certain it's not from here.
16:42Your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in is now a different place.
16:47Well, this is the only time it became exciting.
16:50You know, the rest of the time that it was really an ominous feeling being at work, but at that
16:57time it was exciting.
16:59I mean, this was, now I knew we were on the absolute beyond, actually beyond the cutting edge of science.
17:05And I was, I was so absolutely excited to be there every single time I was.
17:10However, in short order, it began to concern me.
17:16We really have no idea what we're talking about.
17:20The excitement kind of turned to dread at some point, because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.
17:29I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power.
17:36And I've given the example before of taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into
17:43Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time and just dropping it in a room.
17:49And they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works.
17:53So they start taking it apart.
17:56And as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of
18:00the radiation inside.
18:01Now, people have no idea that radiation even exists back then.
18:07But anybody that comes in to check on them will also drop dead.
18:10There's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with.
18:15We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing.
18:20The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.
18:23It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that.
18:26In some respects, we were guinea pigs.
18:28Just try to find out how to make this thing.
18:30As far as you're surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back engineer this thing.
18:36This project was to back engineer the alien craft.
18:40Specifically, it was to try and back engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials.
18:47Now, to do this, they split the project into, you know, many different pieces for several reasons.
18:53They do this on all classified projects.
18:55So nobody has the complete story.
18:57They compartmentalize everything.
18:58Now, we had the power and propulsion system.
19:01The briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that
19:06were going on, you know, on the craft.
19:08The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way
19:13that we don't know of to one of the other projects.
19:15You have to know their existence.
19:16So when you're reading that, before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on what they were describing?
19:22I didn't know at the time.
19:24I mean, I was reading, I thought, is this some kind of test?
19:28To see if you're crazy?
19:28Well, not to see if I'm crazy to, you know, a lot of times they'll take in real high security
19:34jobs.
19:35I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them, whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone was to
19:41leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from.
19:45So I read through the documents, but, you know, I didn't know if this was, you know, part of some
19:51kind of test.
19:52I mean, I really didn't consider it being all that possible as far as being the actual thing that I
20:00was going to work on it.
20:01So there was no progress made?
20:03There was some progress.
20:04I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and had a rough idea, we think, of what
20:10was going on.
20:11But I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time.
20:16I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me.
20:20And I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on.
20:25But, you know, Barry alluded to that.
20:27A horrific accident like where someone died or?
20:30Yeah, where somebody died.
20:31Because they were trying to tamper with things or figure out how something worked?
20:35Yeah, the reactor in particular.
20:37But yet he let you touch it.
20:38Yeah, I think what they were trying to do was cut into one.
20:42Oh, Jesus.
20:42Now, they had more than one there.
20:44And that was supposedly there was an unannounced nuclear test.
20:48That's what it was.
20:49At the time, remember, they were still doing underground nuclear tests at the test site.
20:53But from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made.
20:57Now, this must have been a pretty desperate attempt because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know,
21:03analyze something that way.
21:04But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something I got to cut into an operating reactor.
21:09The only thing he saw in the craft, if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw
21:15in the craft that he related to that looked like a human could make was this honeycomb hatch.
21:20And I always loved that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.
21:24You know, I only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked.
21:30What was it?
21:31And it was the access to the level below.
21:34And it was, well, you know, if you have a six pack of beer and you take out the cardboard
21:42dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top.
21:47But if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat.
21:50So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal.
21:56And you could walk on that in the upper layer.
22:00But if you took the corner, stuck your finger in and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway.
22:06So I thought that was a really unique.
22:08I'd never seen that before.
22:10And it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me.
22:13I said, ah, we can make that.
22:14And all that is, is a hatchway.
22:16Was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft?
22:21I'm sure there was, but that was a metallurgy division had nothing to do with us.
22:25So you never got a...
22:27Not even the slightest briefing.
22:29I don't even know if it was a metal or it was ceramic.
22:31It's, I think there's a fine line between the two.
22:37How many of these things did they have?
22:39They had nine, nine craft all together.
22:41I only got hands on with one of them.
22:44Did you see the other ones?
22:45Yeah.
22:45At one time and only one time, the bay doors between the hangers were all open.
22:50And I could see all the way through.
22:52Were they all exactly the same?
22:54No, they were all different.
22:55Different shapes?
22:56Yeah.
22:56But they were all from somewhere else?
22:58Yeah, absolutely.
23:00How were they different?
23:01They looked completely different.
23:02One looked like a, I called a jello mold.
23:04And it, it looked like a classic jello mold with the rippled sides to it.
23:09One was a very flat disc.
23:11Um, you know, like a, oh, I don't like a straw hat or something like that.
23:17That was sitting up on its edge and the thin part of it had looked like a projectile had been
23:23fired through the edge of it.
23:25So I don't know if they were attempting to see if the metal could be penetrated or if something, or
23:32if that's where the thing came from.
23:34Maybe it was shot down.
23:35Um, but that was the only one where I saw that was, you know, actual physical damage to it.
23:40And that one was roughly the same size?
23:43They're all?
23:44Ah, they were kind of too far away to tell.
23:46Hmm.
23:47And did, there was several teams that were working on the propulsion system?
23:52So there was different teams that were working on these different aircrafts?
23:55I, I don't know.
23:57I could only assume.
23:58Did anyone make any attempt to explain or to, to tell you where they came from?
24:05No, no, no one is the least bit interested in letting everybody know all the facts.
24:10They want to give you the minimum information that's necessary to complete your task.
24:14So you're not getting the story of where they came from.
24:17You're not getting the story of what, how much progress other people are making.
24:21You just focus on the small component.
24:23But they gave you some indication that they've been working on these for a while?
24:27Yeah.
24:27But they never told you where it was from.
24:29They never let you ask questions about where it's from.
24:32Well, if the information I read in the briefings was accurate.
24:36Now, what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.
24:42What I read did jive with reality in terms of how it was made, how, what we saw, how it
24:48operated, the materials, how it, you know, turned on and what was discovered, uh, discovered about it.
24:56There was some paperwork that indicated that this was from the Zeta Reticuli star system.
25:03Yeah.
25:04Now, how they obtained that, I haven't, I haven't the slightest idea, but it wasn't just from the Zeta Reticuli
25:10star system.
25:11It was what they called ZR3. So it was a third planet in that star system. There was no other
25:17information about it. Now, was that true? I don't know. I have no way of verifying that. But that was
25:22printed in the same materials that referenced the reactor.
25:25Now, I looked that stuff up when I went home. And, uh, Zeta Reticuli is a binary star. Um, two
25:33stars that orbit, orbit one another. And it's only visible in the Southern Hemisphere. And it's about 30 some odd
25:38light years away.
25:39So that's literally all the information I have about that. I don't know how they found out it came from
25:44there.
25:45And you also probably have some suspicions that they give you some disinformation like you were talking about before. I
25:51mean, if you ever decided to talk about this, they added a bunch of nonsense to make whatever is factual
25:55look ridiculous.
25:56Or be able to trace it down. Like, okay, this fax came out and, you know, this Lazar guy said
26:01it came from Zeta Reticuli. So they knew it was, would be me.
26:05I read Zeta Reticuli. Were you like, what in the fuck is this?
26:09Well, reading all of the stuff, it was, what in the fuck is this?
26:13You're like, why did I sign up for this?
26:14No, no. To me, this was cool. This was interesting. I said, I was just excited to be out in
26:20a secure area, you know, in the middle of the desert. I said, this is awesome.
26:23How old were you at the time?
26:25I guess as in my 20s, this was, this was great. I mean, I was excited. So I didn't care.
26:30I'm reading through everything.
26:32And so do you remember the thought process when you read that it's from Zeta Reticuli?
26:36Yeah, it, it, it, it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks or anything. It was just like, yeah,
26:41okay.
26:42You think it was bullshit?
26:43I don't know.
26:44You just were like, okay.
26:45Now I don't. I mean, because when I read it, I hadn't verified anything. And this was just a bunch
26:50of stuff I was reading.
26:51And I thought maybe after this, they're just going to give me a test and see what I can remember
26:55in crazy information.
26:57And then it would, but like I said, when I finally went in with Barry and had hands-on experience
27:07with what they were talking about, it talked on a completely different meaning.
27:11Have you ever asked anyone that has any inkling of any idea of where they got them or how they
27:19got them?
27:19No, but something must have been said to me from Barry. And, but I, I, it was just too long
27:29ago and I, I can't quite remember what was said, but it, it just left a seed in my mind.
27:33I think at least one of them was part of an archeological dig. So it's old. Something, one, at least
27:42one of them is old.
27:43I don't know if it was the one I worked on, but I remember something to do with an archeological
27:47dig.
27:48Whoa.
27:49So that's, uh, that means it's not just old, it's ancient.
27:52Now, how did, did you know at all how they were piloting it? Because some, they were doing some tests
28:00where they're having these things fly around in the sky.
28:04And this is what gets us deeper into your story.
28:08The way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does.
28:18And it doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s movie. It flies belly first. I mean, it
28:25may set down conventionally, but it always rotates.
28:29It does a roll maneuver, puts its belly towards the target and then moves away at high speed.
28:34So it would be like a car flying with the wheels forward.
28:37Right. Right. I mean, it may lift it, land on the wheels, but at some point when it wants to
28:42leave, it flips up, points the wheels where it wants to go and takes off.
28:46And the gimbal video, you can see the craft do the roll maneuver. And, uh, it's really interesting.
28:52It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on.
28:55So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these
29:04objects that operate under similar principles.
29:07Right. But they all have the same power source.
29:10They all have the same power source.
29:11I was out there for, uh, one test, um, right. In fact, I was in with Barry in the lab
29:19and Dennis came in and said, uh, we're about to run a test.
29:23Why don't you guys come out? Or I think he said, Barry, why don't you come out here and bring
29:28Bob with you?
29:29Uh, we went out there and the craft was already outside the hangar and was just preparing to lift off.
29:37Now they were in communication with somebody in the craft.
29:41So there was a person in the craft.
29:43Yeah. There was certainly a person in there.
29:45Now it's not a comfortable place to be in because it's small.
29:49So the guy has to be sitting on the floor in the middle, uh, my best guess.
29:53And this is the same specific craft that you worked on because you were the, that was the only craft
29:57that you were in.
29:57The only one that I, I touched and worked on. Um, and it, it quietly lifted off the ground, which
30:04was incredibly impressive to see.
30:07Quietly or silently?
30:09What's, well, quietly because it, it produced, it produced, um, a little Corona discharge from the bottom.
30:18Um, a Corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge.
30:23As it was lifting off the ground, you couldn't hear a slight hiss sound.
30:26Now, as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or 10 feet, maybe even less than that, the
30:31hissing stopped and the blue glow disappeared.
30:34So it lifted off quietly and then it hovered silently if you want to be specific.
30:40Wow. So then what kind of maneuvers was it doing?
30:43It took, for that particular time, it took off, moved a little around, around to the left and right, and
30:50then sat back down.
30:51The, um, the craft itself, um, they communicated with it with a reg, because I saw the guy talking, uh,
31:03in a regular VHF radio to the person in the craft.
31:07And I, I even saw the frequency that was on the, uh, the frequency counter, the, uh, communication, the transceiver
31:14there.
31:15Um, but what's weird is he shouldn't be able to communicate with the craft, with a radio.
31:22The radio, the radio wave should bend around the craft.
31:26I mean, it, it shouldn't be possible.
31:27Well, every single thing about these, the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us.
31:35I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after.
31:38Why should the frequency bend around the craft?
31:41Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft.
31:46There's, uh, the reactor's in the center and there's a wave guide that goes up to the top.
31:50There's actually a small appendage that sticks out of the top of the craft and it produces a heart-shaped
31:55gravitational distortion around the craft.
31:58Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot
32:05see the craft.
32:06The light bends around it.
32:08You're bending gravity.
32:10It bends light.
32:10It bends radio waves.
32:12It's, um, it, it shouldn't be possible to communicate with a craft that has an envelope around it.
32:19That's distorting all forms of energy, but they were apparently in contact with it.
32:26Somehow or another, through some unexplained way that they didn't bother explaining to you.
32:31So this thing gets up, it just does some very simple maneuvers, left, right, left, right, goes down.
32:36Um, and did they discuss this with you?
32:40I mean, they said they wanted you to see it.
32:41No, they, they just wanted, no, they, they didn't discuss anything with me.
32:45It set, it sat down.
32:47We looked around for a bit and Barry said, let's go back.
32:49We went back in the lab.
32:50All we got to do was see it.
32:52Um, fast forward, um, to some months later, uh, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft.
33:01Now they had times they had designated high performance tests.
33:05This obviously wasn't one that, uh, was a high performance test.
33:09The, uh, high performance test went, goes above the mountain range and they do much more radical moves with the
33:16thing.
33:16Look, this is a prized item and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying
33:22around to other countries or anything like that.
33:24This, they just play with this thing right over the test site.
33:27Um, but they were doing some radical moves with it.
33:30Um, and since I had the test flight schedule, statistically, the amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on the
33:39highway was lowest on Wednesdays.
33:42And that's why Dennis told us that, uh, all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the
33:49least chance that anyone would see what's going on.
33:52And this was before the, the government had expanded the forbidden territory around area 51 and Papoose Lake and all
34:01that stuff, right?
34:02Yeah.
34:03I think that occurred after my story came out, then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to
34:09look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back.
34:15But yeah, that, I think all that occurred long after, I'm sorry, that I came out.
34:23As part of the, you know, security clearance process, um, I, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored
34:30and things of that sort.
34:32So they weren't doing any covert stuff.
34:33They, um, you know, with any Q, Q clearance or, which is civilian top secret clearance or military top secret
34:41clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, play places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign
34:47countries.
34:47But, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.
34:52However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife,
34:59whatever about what's going on.
35:00And so she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored.
35:06Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and
35:13aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too.
35:17Uh, well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor.
35:21Now they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and I didn't.
35:25So they stopped me coming in and their attitude at the time was, um, we need to see how this
35:32is going to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything.
35:36So let's just, you know, hold them off from coming in and, uh, you know, see what happens.
35:44And they explained this to you, what was happening?
35:46Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around
35:53and I started getting a little concerned going, well, Chit, are they booting me out of the project?
36:00And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job
36:05knowing what I know.
36:06So, as time went on, I started getting a little concerned and I took my closest friends and just kind
36:14of got together and I said, hey, remember that job I told you about?
36:19This is what's going on.
36:21And, uh, like, you don't need to take my word for it.
36:25Wednesday night, we need to all go out here.
36:27I want to show you what's going on.
36:28And so I took everybody and we went out to, um, remember since I had the test flight schedule and
36:35went outside the base, um, out into the desert.
36:39And so everybody could see, you know, one of the high performance tests and, uh, you know, it left quite
36:44an imprint on everybody.
36:45So they knew I wasn't.
36:47And there's videos of these tests, right?
36:49Yeah.
36:49But remember this is in the, it's in, in the dark in the eighties with a big monster size camcorder
36:55and you got, you know, a bright light jumping around.
36:57But, uh, yeah, I mean, we did video of it.
37:00You filmed these, this test flight, one test flight, and then you get caught.
37:06Actually, it was, I think, the third time because we went out there the first time.
37:13Everybody saw it.
37:14Everybody was amazed because it did some radical maneuvers and, um, you know, everybody had a lot to say about
37:20it.
37:20Maneuvers that I've seen, I've seen the video.
37:22It doesn't, I don't think there's something we have now that does that.
37:26No.
37:26In terms of, like, a human piloted craft?
37:29I mean, I don't know, obviously, what the government...
37:31No, it's, it's impossible.
37:32Nothing can move like that.
37:34And remember, we didn't start filming from the very beginning.
37:37You know, we were waiting for something, you know, to happen.
37:40The craft took off and then came flying at us, stopped, you know, turned at a right angle, flew back.
37:46And then, you know, after it did some, you know, amazing stuff, we were like, to get the camera.
37:50And then, you know, we started filming.
37:51So, it doesn't have all of it on there, it just has some.
37:54The way I describe it to my friends, and they said, what does this look like?
37:57I said, take a laser pointer, and then have a wall, and then move it around the wall.
38:01Like, you know how it moves around the wall?
38:03It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with inertia or physics, or it's not impeded in any way
38:08by the atmosphere.
38:09Yeah.
38:10That's what it looks like.
38:10You're essentially separated from reality.
38:13As crazy as that sounds, with being in case its own gravitational envelope, inertia is not going to affect it.
38:22And, you know, this is, this is how some of those recent sightings with Commander David Fravor.
38:28I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO.
38:30I mean, he describes exactly, the thing operates exactly the way I was describing.
38:35That's why he was interested to talk to me.
38:40But we saw this, and, you know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it.
38:46We should try it again the next test flight day.
38:48So, this became a thing to do.
38:51And I think it was on the third time that we got caught.
38:55I mean, we started becoming a little careless.
38:58I think we took a motor home out there.
39:00You know, I mean, it was like the stupidest thing you could possibly imagine.
39:04We started tailgating.
39:05Yeah, it was ridiculous.
39:07Again, you're in your 20s.
39:09Yeah.
39:09And, you know, what was funny was we went out there, and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning
39:17on the front of a vehicle.
39:20And just for some reason, we just started talking shit.
39:23Like, well, I hope they realize that, I don't remember what we were saying, but, you know, that something about
39:33attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that.
39:39It would be crazy.
39:39And then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light fall on the ground and
39:46roll to us.
39:47And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black.
39:50You can't see your hand in front of your face.
39:51There were a bunch of guards standing right out there, and they had a night vision scope where they were,
39:56like, from here to the wall looking at us, listening to us.
39:59And the guy dropped it, and the scope rolled over to us, and you could see the green screen while
40:04we turned the lights on, and all these guys were there.
40:07So it was—
40:08Whoa.
40:09Yeah, yeah.
40:10So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught, as we should have, because it was stupid.
40:13So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens?
40:16Well, I went in for debriefing.
40:18The following day, I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they
40:25used to use at the nuclear test site.
40:27And this is when they brought out the transcript of the phone call with my wife.
40:36And, you know, they sat me down, and we said, you know, when we meant to keep this secret, we
40:41meant you can't tell your friends, right?
40:43You know, and it just being sarcastic and trying to—and then they got real serious.
40:50But this is where they, you know, took the transcript out and were reading me what my wife and, you
40:59know, our friend were talking about.
41:01And I don't know.
41:03It was a hard time.
41:05So what happens from there?
41:09What do they do with you?
41:10Why don't they arrest you?
41:11Why don't they arrest your friends?
41:13I don't know.
41:13I don't know why.
41:14I'm not sure exactly they knew what to do.
41:17But they did let me go that night, and I went home.
41:22And this is kind of when the most stressful part started.
41:25Because you're realizing that you're being monitored 24-7.
41:28Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble.
41:33And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time, the only investigative reporter
41:40I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp.
41:43And, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to
41:47happen at that point.
41:48So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, tells it, puts it online, and
41:57makes everybody aware of it.
41:58And that's how I found out about it.
42:00Yeah, to make a long story short.
42:02What happens – yeah, to really make a long story short.
42:04What happens from there on?
42:06I mean, do they contact you and say, hey, Bob, it's probably a good idea if you shut up?
42:10There were a lot of things that happened, you know, between that point.
42:15I'm leaving out a lot of stuff to fill in the story.
42:20We'd have to go back to Los Alamos and – well, I really don't want to talk about that.
42:29Top secret weapons stuff that you were working on.
42:33No, I'm talking about the 115.
42:38Well, I don't know.
42:39I have to think about how I'd –
42:41What is the problem with this?
42:44I don't want to get myself into more trouble by admitting something.
42:49So I just have to dance around a couple.
42:52You are essentially – you're kicked out, right?
42:58You're out of this program.
43:00You can't work with these crafts anymore.
43:02And do they give you any threats?
43:06Do they tell you what you have to do from here on out?
43:09Well, yeah, well, I mean, the way it ended was I told George Knapp all this stuff.
43:17And, you know, he said, well, let's just get it on tape.
43:20Should something happen, at least we have a record of it.
43:22And I don't remember what the impenus was.
43:26But at some point, George wanted to air it.
43:29And he said, you know, you make the call on it.
43:33And, look, if at any point you change your mind, we won't air it.
43:38And it came down to the day where George wants to put it on the 5 o'clock news.
43:42He said, this is important stuff.
43:44People have to know about it.
43:45And I thought it was, too.
43:47I thought it's kind of a crime.
43:48I know you've got to keep the technology secret.
43:50But you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on,
43:54that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization.
43:58It's a big fucking deal.
44:00You know, probably the biggest one there ever was.
44:05And George said, you know, today's the day.
44:08We've got to put it on the news or something to that effect.
44:10And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind.
44:15And I said, we're not doing it.
44:18And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George
44:22trying to get the tape.
44:23But he won because he was a bigger guy.
44:26So you actually physically wrestled?
44:28Well, I think it was more of a pulling match.
44:30I don't think we ever hit the ground.
44:31But he got the tape, he put it in the player, and boom, 5 o'clock news was on.
44:36And then I got a call after that, and they said it was from Dennis.
44:41He said, do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now?
44:44And he hung up the phone.
44:45That was the last communication I had with him.
44:48And what has happened to you since then?
44:51A lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS, people had, anybody I know that
44:59had clearances that worked in secure programs, had the clearances pulled.
45:04One of them, a friend, one of mine that Jeremy knows.
45:09He's going on camera with me soon.
45:10He'll tell the story now that he's out of work up there.
45:13He was working up at the tonal pot test range, waiting for his clearance to come through.
45:17And, you know, they pulled that.
45:19It became, it's like if they can't get the person that's involved, they just create a
45:25problem for everybody that surrounds them.
45:28And so, I mean, the way it turns out, it hurt a lot of people's lives that I was connected
45:33to.
45:34And that's an effective way of shutting someone up.
45:38Did you feel that by coming forward and going public, they couldn't just snuff you out?
45:42That was, I mean, that's what I was told, and George and everybody, you know, said that.
45:46You got to, oh, it's public, there's, you know, no one will touch you.
45:49And I, you know, I fell for it.
45:54And I just-
45:55Do you wish you didn't?
45:56Yeah, sometimes.
45:58Sometimes when it's just overstressed and people are camping on your lawn.
46:01Yeah, but this is going to make things worse doing this.
46:05No, this is going to make things better.
46:07That's what I was trying to tell him.
46:08How is this going to make things better?
46:10Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going
46:14to make people who not only work in the government, people that are police officers and firefighters
46:22and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to empathize.
46:27Emphasize, empathize, and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in
46:35your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with one of the most, if not
46:43the most, important discovery in the history of human beings.
46:48The big question, are we alone?
46:51It's the number one question.
46:53There's two questions, right?
46:54What happens when we die and are we alone?
46:56Those are the two big questions.
46:59And if we're not alone, and someone knows we're not alone, and these some people who
47:05know we're not alone are these bungling sort of military folks.
47:10Even if they weren't, it's a crime that they're not telling the rest of us.
47:14But I mean, I don't mean bungling in terms of they're incompetent.
47:17I mean, they can't be competent.
47:19It seems to me, to what you're describing, that no one can be competent with this technology.
47:23Like the Victorian era scholars analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor.
47:30There's no way.
47:31You literally become invincible once you master the technology.
47:35You cannot penetrate a field like that.
47:38So I imagine that's, I know it's all science fiction, but science fiction turns into science
47:42fact.
47:43If you have real force fields around aircraft and battleships, you win.
47:49You win.
47:50You can force your will upon anybody.
47:53And like I said, there's so much more to this story.
47:56When I was first there, there were Russian scientists at S-4.
48:01This was early on in the project.
48:03At some point, there was intense cooperation.
48:06With Russia.
48:07I mean, even exchanging some ideas on nuclear weapons and, you know, EMP tests and some
48:11of that, things we would never have discussed with them.
48:14But at the same time, it was in the late 80s, they were involved.
48:18And actually, in the area at S-4, at some point, it wasn't our group, but at some point,
48:24there was a big discovery made.
48:27And this did not happen when I was there.
48:29It happened in between my trips to there.
48:31And after that, apparently, they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody.
48:36And the Russians were never allowed back on the base after that.
48:39But you don't know what that discovery was?
48:40No, no, like I said, it wasn't my group.
48:42So one of the other groups really found out something.
48:46In typical American fashion, it was like, all right, this is ours.
48:48You guys get the hell out of here.
48:50Was there any inkling that any other government had something similar?
48:55No, nothing that I had heard.
48:57See, that was the thing that always freaked me out, was why, if something was so superior
49:02to human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony.
49:05Like, why would you go to the queen?
49:07I don't give a fuck who the queen is.
49:08I'm a human.
49:09I'm so superior to you ants.
49:11I don't care who you have running your hive.
49:12I'm just going to study it.
49:14I think it's who got it.
49:15Who got it?
49:16Look at the, you know, rocket technology in Germany.
49:19But they got nine of them?
49:21Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either.
49:24So they were either in the same area or, you know, one had clues to where others were.
49:30I mean, I don't know.
49:31You have to fill that in there.
49:33But you're right.
49:33I mean, nine of them, that's a big dig if it was archaeological.
49:39Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been
49:46some sort of an effort to erase your past.
49:49Yeah.
49:49Some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos.
49:56In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos was someone got a list, a directory
50:02of the employees from the past and read into it.
50:05And you were on that list.
50:06So it proved that you worked there even though people were trying to deny it and they were trying to
50:09use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos.
50:12You weren't really a scientist.
50:14What was that like to experience?
50:17I mean, of course, we're talking about the 1980s, the 1990s, when you could get away with something like that.
50:23But yeah, obviously, there are a lot less records on computers at that time.
50:29It was still file cabinets and folders.
50:32But yeah, that was frightening.
50:34That was one of the first things I saw.
50:37I think it's I think George Knapp was the first one that uncovered that.
50:41I mean, he saw my birth certificate disappear.
50:44He it disappeared.
50:46Yeah.
50:46There was no record of you.
50:47Yeah, there was there was no record of that.
50:49But if the Los Alamos thing really surprised me and that they were so adamant that now this guy never
50:55worked here.
50:55Don't be ridiculous.
50:56And George went back and forth, you know, for I got the letters on the wall.
51:00Yeah.
51:00Months.
51:01I mean, it was ridiculous.
51:02But fortunately, somebody came up with a 1982 phone book directory.
51:07I mean, and also originally, I told you, you know, when I work there, I was on the front page
51:14of the paper.
51:15So they were still able to archive, you know, bring that back from the archives.
51:19And, you know, Bob Lazar, a physicist working here at Los Alamos.
51:22So there was at least something there.
51:25But somehow George came up with the phone directory.
51:28And then George, then Bob took George with cameras into Los Alamos.
51:33Oh, yeah.
51:33Yeah.
51:34So we flew out there and I said, look, come on in.
51:36I'll show you where I worked.
51:38We'll go in.
51:38We'll meet people.
51:39And George went with me and, you know, filmed inside there.
51:42And you knew how to navigate the place.
51:43Oh, yeah.
51:44And, you know, met people and, you know, and so there was no problem.
51:46Los Alamos was also the place where they had the machine that was able to read the size of your
51:53digits.
51:54No, no.
51:54That was in Los Alamos.
51:55That was S4.
51:56That was S4.
51:56And explain that.
51:59So now this was back in the 80s.
52:01And this is back in the 80s where when you discussed this, people were like, this doesn't even exist.
52:06Yeah.
52:06Okay.
52:07What was it?
52:07It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint scanners and, you know, and anything of anything, any high
52:15resolution scanner at that time.
52:17So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with
52:23pins in it so you could jam your hand in there.
52:25And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath.
52:28And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on and it would measure the bones in
52:34your finger because the light shone through your bones.
52:38And apparently, the length of the bones in your fingers are extremely unique and easy to measure.
52:45And they use that.
52:46When you put your hands on there, the light would turn on and your badge would pop out.
52:50Is it right there?
52:51Oh, there it is.
52:52That's it.
52:52And I tried to describe this to people and they said, that is the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard.
52:59And I said, hey, my badge came out of that thing.
53:02I put my hand on it, badge popped out, and that's how I could open the doors and get into
53:06S4.
53:07There was that.
53:08Yeah.
53:09There is your education record.
53:12That was also, like, what happened with that?
53:16Well, that disappeared also.
53:17You know, that I've never gone anywhere for education.
53:24I've never gone, I never attended any classes at Caltech.
53:27I never attended anything at MIT.
53:30You did attend classes in those places.
53:32I did attend classes in those places.
53:34Do you know anybody that you went to school with?
53:36Yes, I do.
53:37And have they verified that they went to school with you?
53:39Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but people, yeah.
53:42The reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets in
53:50trouble.
53:50They don't want to be.
53:51Of course.
53:52I found them.
53:52Yeah, really, if you look at all the information on, you know, concerning my accounts, that's verifiable.
54:00It can't possibly be a bullshit story anymore.
54:03It's really way past that point.
54:06What really annoys me are the people that think, you know, you guys just came up with the story to
54:11make a bunch of money or get a bunch of, you know, attention.
54:13That's a good point.
54:14So please explain that.
54:15First of all, I don't get any money out of this at all.
54:18And I didn't even let you guys buy plane tickets for me to come out here or anything.
54:23I mean, any time, like when Jeremy pre-previewed, I guess, the movie up in Michigan, I mean, it brought
54:32in like a couple thousand dollars.
54:34I made sure that $2,000 went to science programs at the local high schools there.
54:39It's like dirty money.
54:40He doesn't want to touch it.
54:41I don't take any money from this stuff.
54:42And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention.
54:47I don't like being on shows.
54:49I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing.
54:52So I got enough hugs when I was a kid, okay?
54:55I don't need any attention.
54:57So, no, if you think somehow we came up with this thing, then you've got to tell me why we
55:04did it.
55:04Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't
55:09profited off of this.
55:10And like you said, that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs.
55:15I mean, it doesn't make any sense any other way.
55:19I mean, what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here
55:24when I watched the documentary,
55:26that what you're saying makes sense.
55:28It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit.
55:30That happened exactly like I said it did, Joe.
55:33I believe you.
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