I Broke My Knuckle on My Kid Brother’s Head! CALL IN SHOW

Stefan Molyneux

Philosopher Stefan Molyneux breaks down a 29-year-old caller's chaotic upbringing anxiety and dating self-worth traps to forge healing paths and unbreakable connections.  0:00:00 Dating History  0:02:10 Dealing with Sexual Needs  0:03:24 Childhood Background  0:06:01 Psychiatric Medication Journey  0:07:23 Discovering Philosophy  0:08:44 Family Dynamics  0:11:59 Sibling Relationships  0:17:04 Childhood Violence  0:18:47 Reflecting on Violence  0:22:23 Physical Altercations  0:24:13 Parental Response  0:26:09 Therapy Experience  0:27:27 Understanding Violence  0:29:29 Reasons for Violence  0:32:06 Confronting the Past  0:34:30 Conversations with Brothers  0:40:16 Ego and Responsibility  0:41:58 Value and Contribution  0:43:09 The Value of Connection  0:49:35 The Weight of Guilt  0:51:36 Social Anxiety and Isolation  0:53:24 Value vs. Hostility  1:02:18 The Complexity of Anxiety  1:06:44 Rational vs. Irrational Fear  1:15:45 Ego and Self-Image  1:24:44 Next Steps in Growth   GET FREEDOMAIN MERCH! https://shop.freedomain.com/  SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON X! https://x.com/StefanMolyneux  Follow me on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@freedomain1  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND THE FULL AUDIOBOOK! https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Subscribers get 12 HOURS on the "Truth About the French Revolution," multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material - as well as AIs for Real-Time Relationships, Bitcoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-In Shows!  You also receive private livestreams, HUNDREDS of exclusive premium shows, early release podcasts, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon! https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2025

Transcript

00:00:00Hello. Can you hear me?

00:00:01I do apologize.

00:00:04My refrigerator was running, and I had to unplug it.

00:00:07No problem.

00:00:08Oh, I'm glad the audio got better.

00:00:10Good. Okay, good.

00:00:11I didn't want to have to nag about that.

00:00:13Well, thanks for your patience.

00:00:15Sorry, it took me a minute or two to get into the lobby.

00:00:17My computer seems to be a little slow this morning,

00:00:19but I think we are good and ready to go.

00:00:23Now that the refrigerator is off, is the audio quality good?

00:00:27Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Thank you.

00:00:29Okay, I'm going to turn on Audacity now,

00:00:32so it should be recording on my end.

00:00:36All right, do you want me to start with the note I sent?

00:00:40Yeah, that would be great. Thank you.

00:00:42Okay. The note was a little low on information.

00:00:46I believe it just said that I've heard you say that

00:00:50if you don't learn to talk to women by your early 20s,

00:00:54you probably aren't going to your dunes.

00:00:56You're not going to learn that later in life.

00:00:59Well, early 20s might be a little bit too,

00:01:02but yeah, certainly by your mid to late 20s,

00:01:04if you're not dating, it's going to get progressively tougher.

00:01:06But sorry, go ahead.

00:01:07Yeah, yeah.

00:01:08I appreciate that correction.

00:01:10I was overstating it.

00:01:11I was being dramatic.

00:01:12But I'm 29,

00:01:15and I want to know what I can do to change that

00:01:18before it's too late.

00:01:20All right.

00:01:20Well, tell me a little bit about your history of talking

00:01:22or not talking too long.

00:01:26Do you want me to start with childhood or start?

00:01:29I would say let's start with the dating stuff first

00:01:32and then go back further.

00:01:35Okay.

00:01:37My only dating history is within the last eight months,

00:01:43which I want to say about September of last year,

00:01:46I started attending speed dating events.

00:01:49So if you count a speed date as a date,

00:01:53I've had quite a few.

00:01:55But only one of them actually turned into a real date,

00:01:58and that was only just a first date.

00:02:00We decided we were incompatible after that date.

00:02:05That is legitimately the only history I have.

00:02:08So one date that came out of speed dating.

00:02:10Yes.

00:02:11And how do you deal with your sexual needs?

00:02:15So I've stopped watching pornography,

00:02:20which has been also around a similar time frame.

00:02:24over the last eight months.

00:02:27I don't know if this is,

00:02:29we need to go into this or not,

00:02:32but I took that fairly seriously,

00:02:38and I sought professional help with it,

00:02:41which I didn't think was particularly helpful,

00:02:43but the interesting thing that came out of it

00:02:45was I did some brain scans

00:02:48or brainwave monitoring at any rate.

00:02:55And pornography really does have a measurable impact

00:02:58on your brainwaves,

00:03:00and it has started to normalize since I quit.

00:03:06Oh, good for you.

00:03:07Okay.

00:03:07All right.

00:03:08And when did you first get exposed,

00:03:10and what was the length of your habit?

00:03:15I want to say about 20-20.

00:03:17I know that's not a typical pattern.

00:03:20So I would have been about 23,

00:03:22and I've been about six years ago.

00:03:24Got it.

00:03:25Okay.

00:03:26All right.

00:03:27And what is your theory as to why you don't date?

00:03:34Do you mind if I go through the childhood briefly?

00:03:37Absolutely.

00:03:38To get to that point?

00:03:38If that's a good time, sure.

00:03:40Okay.

00:03:42I was born in 1997.

00:03:47I think it was around 2011,

00:03:49which I would have been 13 or 14.

00:03:53I was put on some psychiatric medication,

00:03:56which I remained on until 2018.

00:04:00But fill in a little bit there.

00:04:04I was in the middle of three brothers,

00:04:07one about three years older,

00:04:08one about three years younger.

00:04:11We were homeschooled in the worst stereotype

00:04:15or the worst straw man sort of sense

00:04:19that we were in a rural area.

00:04:23So we were isolated both geographically and socially.

00:04:28And so legitimately,

00:04:31it was noteworthy the times that I would speak

00:04:34to someone outside of the fam.

00:04:37I don't want to oversell that.

00:04:38It would happen on a monthly basis,

00:04:40but weeks would go by with negligible contact

00:04:44with anyone outside the family.

00:04:47There was a lot of yelling, screaming,

00:04:50some physical abuse,

00:04:52but I think the neglect was the worst.

00:04:54That at no point in my childhood

00:04:56did I get any recommendations

00:04:59for how to make friends to date,

00:05:01anything like that.

00:05:03And it didn't seem to bother anyone

00:05:06that neither myself or my siblings were.

00:05:09And sorry, just remind me,

00:05:11how many siblings?

00:05:12Two.

00:05:12Two brothers,

00:05:14one older,

00:05:14one younger,

00:05:15about three years between each of us.

00:05:17Okay, got it.

00:05:19Okay.

00:05:20And the psychiatric medication

00:05:23was basically because

00:05:24I was violent towards my siblings.

00:05:28The pattern there for seven years or so

00:05:31until the age of 21

00:05:35was that

00:05:36I would be put on

00:05:38progressively lower doses of medication

00:05:40because it made me too sleepy

00:05:44and passive.

00:05:46And

00:05:46then it would be low

00:05:48and I would have enough energy

00:05:49to get into a fight with a sibling.

00:05:51Then the dose would be increased.

00:05:53So between like

00:05:5513, 14,

00:05:56and 21,

00:05:57I reached

00:05:59almost no social development milestones.

00:06:02Like,

00:06:03there was nothing,

00:06:04the normal social development

00:06:05that would take place

00:06:06during the teenage years.

00:06:07absolutely none of that happened.

00:06:09I'm so sorry to hear that.

00:06:13And then,

00:06:15um,

00:06:16I don't know if this is relevant,

00:06:18but

00:06:18in 2016,

00:06:20I took an economics class

00:06:22that exposed me

00:06:22to Austrian economics,

00:06:23which

00:06:24I feel

00:06:26was a significant

00:06:28turning point in my life

00:06:29because

00:06:31maybe not philosophy proper,

00:06:33but at least exposed me

00:06:34to the ideas

00:06:35of

00:06:35reason and evidence

00:06:37and understanding the world

00:06:38through a logical framework.

00:06:41But,

00:06:42excuse me,

00:06:43um,

00:06:44at the time

00:06:46and

00:06:47until relatively recently,

00:06:49I would say that my,

00:06:50my brain was very chaotic

00:06:53and

00:06:56disorganized

00:06:56patterns of thought

00:06:57and action.

00:06:58and that

00:06:59that started me

00:07:00down the road

00:07:00to philosophy

00:07:01and to

00:07:03rationality.

00:07:04In

00:07:052019,

00:07:07uh,

00:07:07the year after

00:07:08I went off my medications,

00:07:10um,

00:07:11that,

00:07:12um,

00:07:12through Austrian economics,

00:07:14I began listening to podcasts

00:07:15and audio books

00:07:16and

00:07:17pursuing truth,

00:07:18as it were.

00:07:19And that led me

00:07:20to a number of books

00:07:21about childhood development

00:07:22and so forth.

00:07:23And I,

00:07:25for the first time,

00:07:26began to realize

00:07:26that something was wrong

00:07:27with the way my life

00:07:28had been up to that point,

00:07:29which I think culminated

00:07:31in me going off

00:07:31the medications

00:07:32two years later,

00:07:33or not culminated,

00:07:34but led to me

00:07:34going off the medications

00:07:36in 2018.

00:07:36I'm sorry,

00:07:37how long,

00:07:38how long were you

00:07:39on the meds for?

00:07:40Around seven years.

00:07:42Um,

00:07:43I don't know

00:07:43exactly the start date.

00:07:44or was it multiple meds?

00:07:46Um,

00:07:47I started with one

00:07:48that made me

00:07:49very suicidal,

00:07:50switched to another one

00:07:52which was the main one,

00:07:53but in the last year

00:07:55or two,

00:07:55I was also on

00:07:56an additional one.

00:07:57Um,

00:07:58and did you have

00:07:59constant dosage

00:08:00or did the dosage

00:08:01change over time?

00:08:03Uh,

00:08:03it was up and down

00:08:04that,

00:08:06uh,

00:08:06the main medication

00:08:07made me very tired

00:08:09and just numb,

00:08:12inactive.

00:08:13and so,

00:08:15if there had been

00:08:16no altercations

00:08:17between myself

00:08:17and my siblings

00:08:18for a period of time,

00:08:21uh,

00:08:22they would reduce

00:08:23that dosage

00:08:24because

00:08:25they were concerned

00:08:26about the fact

00:08:27that I was

00:08:27a zombie

00:08:28all the time.

00:08:29But there,

00:08:30they didn't have

00:08:32any additional

00:08:32treatment protocol.

00:08:33They would just

00:08:34reduce the dose

00:08:35until I had another

00:08:35fight with a sibling

00:08:36and then increase it again.

00:08:39there was a constant

00:08:40up and down

00:08:40pattern

00:08:41of the medication

00:08:42dosage.

00:08:43Okay,

00:08:43got it.

00:08:44In 2019,

00:08:46uh,

00:08:47my mother died

00:08:48which I think,

00:08:50uh,

00:08:51a lot of thoughts

00:08:52have been,

00:08:53it seems to me

00:08:54that a lot of thoughts

00:08:56that hadn't been safe

00:08:57for me to think

00:08:58while she was still alive,

00:08:59I started thinking

00:09:00after she was dead.

00:09:01It was now safe

00:09:02for me to

00:09:03start questioning

00:09:04things to a greater

00:09:05extent.

00:09:07And then

00:09:082021,

00:09:09I believe

00:09:10it was,

00:09:11I,

00:09:12I could be wrong

00:09:13about that date.

00:09:14I don't want to

00:09:14nail that down

00:09:15too precisely.

00:09:16I believe sometime

00:09:17in 2021

00:09:17was when I started

00:09:18listening to your podcast.

00:09:20In

00:09:222023,

00:09:24um,

00:09:25I left home

00:09:27and

00:09:27do food

00:09:28with the surviving

00:09:29parent and the

00:09:30older sibling.

00:09:31I have

00:09:32some contact

00:09:33with the younger

00:09:33sibling.

00:09:35Um,

00:09:37he's a lost cause

00:09:38I would say.

00:09:40And

00:09:41for the,

00:09:43between

00:09:432023

00:09:44when I moved out

00:09:45and

00:09:46mid-year 2025

00:09:49I was,

00:09:50uh,

00:09:52establishing,

00:09:53I was getting

00:09:54my shit together.

00:09:55Um,

00:09:56I had some

00:09:56health complications,

00:09:58um,

00:09:59getting

00:10:00my finances

00:10:01together

00:10:01and

00:10:02getting

00:10:02my head

00:10:03on straight.

00:10:04It,

00:10:05uh,

00:10:05it wouldn't

00:10:06have been

00:10:06an opportune

00:10:07time to start

00:10:08dating

00:10:08because I was not,

00:10:09I was not in a position

00:10:10where I could

00:10:11form a

00:10:12decent relationship

00:10:13or so it seemed

00:10:14to me at the time.

00:10:16But

00:10:16middle of the year,

00:10:17last year,

00:10:18I recognized,

00:10:19I think

00:10:19I can do that

00:10:21now

00:10:22and,

00:10:24and

00:10:25I,

00:10:26I need to do

00:10:26something now

00:10:27or it will

00:10:28probably never happen,

00:10:29which is why

00:10:30I started

00:10:30speed dating

00:10:32but

00:10:33my skill set

00:10:34is still

00:10:34very limited.

00:10:36I don't know

00:10:36if speed dating

00:10:37is even a

00:10:37decent option

00:10:38or not.

00:10:40Okay.

00:10:41And so,

00:10:41sorry,

00:10:42which one of your

00:10:43brothers was the

00:10:43last cause?

00:10:44Was it the

00:10:44older?

00:10:45Um,

00:10:46so to be clear,

00:10:48the older one

00:10:48is evil.

00:10:50Evil.

00:10:50Yeah,

00:10:50which,

00:10:51yeah,

00:10:51which I don't

00:10:51talk to.

00:10:52Now,

00:10:52it's the younger

00:10:53one that

00:10:55he,

00:10:57I don't

00:10:57want to say

00:10:57he's a good

00:10:58person,

00:10:59but I

00:11:00could talk

00:11:01to him

00:11:01about philosophy

00:11:02and morality

00:11:03within a

00:11:03family structure

00:11:04and he

00:11:04would understand

00:11:05what I'm

00:11:05talking about.

00:11:06Uh,

00:11:07the problem

00:11:08is that

00:11:09he is,

00:11:11is,

00:11:13well,

00:11:14he's around

00:11:1426,

00:11:15he has no

00:11:16job,

00:11:17still lives

00:11:18at home,

00:11:19and,

00:11:21uh,

00:11:21has no

00:11:22particular

00:11:22interest in

00:11:23ever getting

00:11:23a job or

00:11:24leaving home

00:11:24work doing

00:11:26anything.

00:11:27So he's

00:11:28not.

00:11:28So he lives

00:11:29off your

00:11:29father's

00:11:30income?

00:11:31Um,

00:11:32both father

00:11:33and the

00:11:33other siblings

00:11:34income,

00:11:34I believe.

00:11:35Okay,

00:11:36so they're

00:11:36paying his

00:11:37bill,

00:11:37so they're

00:11:37enabling

00:11:38this

00:11:39laziness.

00:11:41Yes,

00:11:41he's,

00:11:42he's addicted

00:11:42to pornography

00:11:43and video

00:11:44games,

00:11:45and so long

00:11:46as he continues

00:11:47to have access

00:11:47to both,

00:11:48which he

00:11:49does,

00:11:50he's

00:11:51unlikely to

00:11:52ever try

00:11:52and change

00:11:53his life.

00:11:54Okay,

00:11:54got it,

00:11:55got it.

00:11:57All right,

00:11:58and what

00:12:01is evil

00:12:02about your

00:12:02older brother?

00:12:04Um,

00:12:05outside the

00:12:06family,

00:12:07he's,

00:12:08he's not

00:12:08criminally

00:12:09inclined or

00:12:09anything.

00:12:10Um,

00:12:12it's just

00:12:13that he

00:12:13doesn't

00:12:14see any

00:12:15problems

00:12:16with the

00:12:16way the

00:12:16family was.

00:12:18So,

00:12:20but during

00:12:21the time

00:12:21when I was

00:12:22on medication,

00:12:23uh,

00:12:24I was

00:12:25myself

00:12:27and the

00:12:27younger

00:12:27sibling

00:12:28were

00:12:29going to

00:12:30therapy,

00:12:30which

00:12:31it was

00:12:32not

00:12:33productive

00:12:33therapy,

00:12:34but in

00:12:35any event,

00:12:35uh,

00:12:37we started

00:12:38talking to

00:12:38each other

00:12:39on commuting

00:12:40to and from

00:12:41therapy,

00:12:42therapy.

00:12:44And so

00:12:45if,

00:12:46when I

00:12:46started to

00:12:46get the

00:12:47idea that

00:12:47maybe there

00:12:48was problems

00:12:49with the

00:12:50family and

00:12:52the abuse

00:12:52and neglect

00:12:53and so

00:12:53forth,

00:12:54he kind

00:12:55of told

00:12:55me,

00:12:56well,

00:12:56what took

00:12:57you so

00:12:57long?

00:12:57He had

00:12:58already

00:12:58hated our

00:12:59parents,

00:13:00basically.

00:13:02with the

00:13:03older

00:13:03sibling,

00:13:05he always

00:13:06stood by

00:13:06and defended

00:13:07our

00:13:08parents and

00:13:09how we

00:13:09were raised,

00:13:10et cetera.

00:13:11No,

00:13:11are you still

00:13:12on?

00:13:12Yeah.

00:13:12Sorry,

00:13:13you paused

00:13:14there for a

00:13:14second,

00:13:14I wasn't

00:13:14sure if we

00:13:15lost you,

00:13:15sorry,

00:13:15go ahead.

00:13:17I think

00:13:18that was

00:13:18the end of

00:13:18the statement,

00:13:19sorry.

00:13:20Okay,

00:13:21so I still

00:13:21don't know

00:13:21what's evil

00:13:22about your

00:13:22older brother.

00:13:24Well,

00:13:24he doesn't

00:13:25see a problem

00:13:25with child

00:13:25abuse.

00:13:27Oh,

00:13:27so he

00:13:28understands

00:13:29the abuse,

00:13:29but he

00:13:30approves of

00:13:30it.

00:13:32He wouldn't

00:13:32call it

00:13:33abuse,

00:13:33so I don't

00:13:34know if he

00:13:34would call it

00:13:35understands

00:13:35the abuse,

00:13:37but he

00:13:38doesn't have

00:13:39any significant

00:13:39problems with

00:13:40how we

00:13:40are raised,

00:13:41so he

00:13:42does support

00:13:43child abuse.

00:13:44He wouldn't

00:13:44call it that,

00:13:45obviously,

00:13:45but that's

00:13:46what's evil

00:13:47about him.

00:13:47The younger

00:13:48one recognizes

00:13:51that how we

00:13:52were raised

00:13:52was abusive,

00:13:55but he's

00:13:56in a good

00:13:57situation

00:13:57financially,

00:13:58or at

00:13:59least,

00:14:00well,

00:14:02he's not

00:14:02willing to

00:14:03excommunicate

00:14:04the family

00:14:04because of

00:14:05the abuse,

00:14:06that he

00:14:07would rather

00:14:08stay on

00:14:08because he

00:14:09gets the

00:14:09subsidy.

00:14:10Sorry,

00:14:11so he

00:14:11takes money

00:14:12from your

00:14:12parents,

00:14:13your father,

00:14:14sorry.

00:14:14The youngest

00:14:15one,

00:14:15yes,

00:14:15the younger

00:14:16one.

00:14:16But the

00:14:17eldest,

00:14:18I'm still

00:14:18trying to,

00:14:18so he

00:14:19supports,

00:14:21he supports

00:14:22child abuse

00:14:23or doesn't

00:14:24acknowledge it,

00:14:25but he

00:14:25himself is

00:14:26not abusive,

00:14:27is that

00:14:27right?

00:14:31If he

00:14:32was in a

00:14:32relationship,

00:14:33I would

00:14:34suspect he

00:14:35would be

00:14:35abusive to

00:14:36some extent,

00:14:37probably not

00:14:38physically.

00:14:40It wasn't

00:14:41like he was

00:14:41non-violent

00:14:42when we were

00:14:43growing up,

00:14:44but I would

00:14:45usually win in

00:14:45a fight,

00:14:46so he

00:14:46wasn't

00:14:46particularly

00:14:47physically

00:14:47abusive.

00:14:51He can

00:14:51be verbally

00:14:52abusive or

00:14:53emotionally

00:14:53abusive or

00:14:59is there

00:15:00something

00:15:00specific?

00:15:03You called

00:15:04him evil

00:15:04and I'm

00:15:05not disagreeing

00:15:05with you,

00:15:06I just

00:15:06want to

00:15:07understand

00:15:07what you

00:15:07mean by

00:15:08that.

00:15:08So is

00:15:09he evil

00:15:09because he

00:15:11supports or

00:15:12does not

00:15:13criticize child

00:15:14abuse?

00:15:15And I'm

00:15:16not disagreeing

00:15:16with you,

00:15:16I just want

00:15:17to understand

00:15:17what you

00:15:19mean when

00:15:19you say

00:15:19he's

00:15:19evil.

00:15:20He meets

00:15:21all the

00:15:21descriptions

00:15:22you just

00:15:23gave.

00:15:24And to me

00:15:25that's

00:15:25sufficient.

00:15:26If you

00:15:27want me to

00:15:27point out

00:15:28other character

00:15:29flaws he has,

00:15:30I can.

00:15:30I just don't

00:15:31know if that's

00:15:32necessary.

00:15:33Well, I mean,

00:15:34evil to me is

00:15:35people who

00:15:36use violence

00:15:39in the

00:15:40present and

00:15:41so on.

00:15:42Simply

00:15:43supporting

00:15:45corruption

00:15:45or violence

00:15:47without

00:15:47committing it

00:15:48yourself is

00:15:49not quite all

00:15:50the way to

00:15:50evil, at

00:15:51least as far

00:15:51as I would

00:15:52think about

00:15:52it.

00:15:54If you

00:15:55want to

00:15:56change that

00:15:57label to

00:15:57something less

00:15:58than evil,

00:15:59I'm not

00:16:00going to argue

00:16:01about it.

00:16:03He doesn't

00:16:04use violence

00:16:04in the

00:16:05present because

00:16:06he can't

00:16:07get away

00:16:07of it.

00:16:08If he

00:16:09could, I'm

00:16:10not convinced

00:16:11he'd be

00:16:11opposed to

00:16:12it.

00:16:15Okay, that's

00:16:15fine.

00:16:16So I just

00:16:16wanted to

00:16:17understand what

00:16:17you meant.

00:16:18Okay, sorry,

00:16:19you're right.

00:16:20I mean, it's

00:16:20not probably

00:16:21worth hair

00:16:22splitting too

00:16:22much on this.

00:16:22I just wanted

00:16:23to know what

00:16:24you meant.

00:16:24Because to

00:16:25me, if

00:16:25somebody says,

00:16:26oh, my

00:16:26brother is

00:16:27evil, it's

00:16:27like, oh,

00:16:27he's in jail

00:16:28for murder

00:16:28or, you

00:16:29know, he's

00:16:29selling drugs

00:16:30to children

00:16:30or he beats

00:16:31up his

00:16:32girlfriend or

00:16:32something like

00:16:33that.

00:16:33So I just

00:16:33wanted to

00:16:34know.

00:16:34I do

00:16:35understand.

00:16:36Okay, so

00:16:37I do

00:16:38confusion.

00:16:39If we're

00:16:39going to

00:16:39have the

00:16:39conversation,

00:16:40you're

00:16:40going to

00:16:40have to

00:16:40let me

00:16:41finish my

00:16:41sentences.

00:16:42Have I

00:16:42been pretty

00:16:43good listening

00:16:43so far?

00:16:44Yes.

00:16:45Okay, so

00:16:46please don't

00:16:47over-talk me

00:16:48when I put

00:16:49in my 5%

00:16:50of feedback

00:16:50so far.

00:16:52Because it's

00:16:52really tough

00:16:53to finish

00:16:53sentences if

00:16:54you start

00:16:54talking within

00:16:55a few seconds

00:16:56of me saying

00:16:57something.

00:16:57So just

00:16:58take a deep

00:16:58breath, just

00:16:59let me finish

00:17:00my thoughts,

00:17:00and I'll do

00:17:01my best to

00:17:01let you finish

00:17:02yours.

00:17:02I think I've

00:17:02been doing

00:17:03all right with

00:17:03that.

00:17:05So, okay,

00:17:05so tell me a

00:17:06little bit about

00:17:07the violence

00:17:07that you

00:17:08had against

00:17:08your siblings.

00:17:09Was it

00:17:10against your

00:17:10younger brother?

00:17:15I don't

00:17:16remember a

00:17:17great degree

00:17:17of specificity.

00:17:19I think it

00:17:20was disproportionately

00:17:20towards the

00:17:21younger brother,

00:17:23but it was

00:17:24also towards

00:17:24the older

00:17:25brother as

00:17:25well.

00:17:26Okay, so

00:17:26tell me what

00:17:27would happen

00:17:28and what

00:17:29ages and

00:17:29so on.

00:17:31I do

00:17:32not know

00:17:33what age

00:17:34it started.

00:17:37I wasn't

00:17:38put on

00:17:39medication

00:17:40until around

00:17:40the 12

00:17:42to 14

00:17:44type time

00:17:44frame,

00:17:45so it

00:17:46must have

00:17:46had a

00:17:46significant

00:17:47escalation

00:17:48around that

00:17:48time, I

00:17:49would think,

00:17:50but I think

00:17:50it was going

00:17:51on to a

00:17:51lesser extent.

00:17:54I'm guessing

00:17:54to maybe

00:17:55when I was

00:17:55five or

00:17:56six, I

00:17:56don't know.

00:18:01it didn't

00:18:01conclude, I

00:18:03don't think

00:18:04until after I

00:18:04went off of

00:18:05medication until

00:18:05I was like

00:18:0621 or

00:18:07something like

00:18:07that.

00:18:10I broke a

00:18:11knuckle.

00:18:12Sorry, I

00:18:12missed that last

00:18:13part.

00:18:13You said it

00:18:13lasted until

00:18:14you went off

00:18:15medication at

00:18:16the age of

00:18:1621?

00:18:17I think,

00:18:17yeah, around

00:18:18that time.

00:18:18Okay.

00:18:19I broke a

00:18:20knuckle on

00:18:21a younger

00:18:22sibling's head

00:18:24when I was

00:18:25maybe 18.

00:18:27so it

00:18:28continued for

00:18:29some time.

00:18:30Oh, so

00:18:31you were an

00:18:32adult, your

00:18:33brother was

00:18:3315?

00:18:35Around that,

00:18:36yeah.

00:18:36Okay, so you

00:18:37broke a knuckle

00:18:37on a child's

00:18:38head.

00:18:39Yes.

00:18:40Oh my

00:18:40God, I'm

00:18:41so sorry.

00:18:42How appalling.

00:18:43Okay, sorry,

00:18:44go on.

00:18:47Do you think

00:18:48that the

00:18:49knuckle-breaking

00:18:49example would

00:18:50be an

00:18:53incident worth

00:18:54exploring?

00:18:55Or do you

00:18:56want me to

00:18:56come for

00:18:56anything else?

00:18:57I'm asking you

00:18:57in general,

00:18:58I'm trying to

00:18:59understand how

00:19:00often you were

00:19:01violent and

00:19:02what form the

00:19:03violence took.

00:19:05No, it's hard

00:19:05to say how

00:19:06often because of

00:19:07the medication.

00:19:08Okay, can you

00:19:09just do me a

00:19:09favor, bro?

00:19:10Can you hang

00:19:10on?

00:19:10Look, I feel

00:19:11like I'm losing

00:19:12my mind here.

00:19:12I keep asking

00:19:13you these

00:19:13questions and

00:19:14you keep giving

00:19:14me these non-answers.

00:19:15I don't remember.

00:19:16It's not clear.

00:19:17I don't know

00:19:18exactly.

00:19:18It's hard to

00:19:19recall.

00:19:19I just need a

00:19:20general answer to

00:19:21the best of your

00:19:21ability.

00:19:22I'm not asking

00:19:23for times and

00:19:24dates and footage.

00:19:26I understand

00:19:26that memory is

00:19:27hazy, but also

00:19:29it wasn't that

00:19:29long ago.

00:19:30It was 11 years

00:19:31ago, right, that

00:19:32you broke your

00:19:34knuckle.

00:19:34So I just need a

00:19:36general answer.

00:19:37I can't spend like

00:19:3820 minutes trying to

00:19:39extract this

00:19:39information from you.

00:19:40And if you don't

00:19:42remember anything

00:19:42that's fine, I

00:19:43find that a little

00:19:45confusing.

00:19:46Was it once a

00:19:47week?

00:19:47Was it once a

00:19:48month?

00:19:48Did you beat him

00:19:48until your knuckles

00:19:50bled?

00:19:50Was it just a push?

00:19:51Like, I just need

00:19:52some general

00:19:52information because

00:19:53the non-answers are

00:19:54driving me a little

00:19:55batty.

00:19:57I apologize.

00:19:58You're correct.

00:20:01This may just be

00:20:02an excuse, but I

00:20:03will say that

00:20:04everything before I

00:20:05went off medication

00:20:05is a little

00:20:06fuzzier.

00:20:09All right.

00:20:09So I just asked

00:20:10you for direct

00:20:10information.

00:20:11Hang on.

00:20:11I just asked you

00:20:12for direct

00:20:13information to the

00:20:14best of your

00:20:15knowledge.

00:20:15And you say, well,

00:20:16things are a little

00:20:16fuzzy.

00:20:17Well, okay, listen,

00:20:19are you going to

00:20:19answer the question?

00:20:20It's fine.

00:20:21If you don't want

00:20:21to answer the

00:20:21question, that's

00:20:22fine.

00:20:23But then we'll

00:20:23move on to another

00:20:24topic.

00:20:25But I just can't

00:20:26spend my time

00:20:27spinning wheels in

00:20:28the mud, so to

00:20:28speak.

00:20:30I mean, if you

00:20:30were violent enough

00:20:31to be put on

00:20:32medication, I

00:20:33assume there was

00:20:33considerable

00:20:34violence.

00:20:35I don't think I

00:20:36actually remember

00:20:36well enough to

00:20:37give you a

00:20:38useful answer, I

00:20:40can make a

00:20:43Hang on.

00:20:44You were

00:20:44deciding for

00:20:45me what is a

00:20:47useful answer, and

00:20:48you can't make

00:20:49that decision for

00:20:49me.

00:20:50I decide what

00:20:52is useful or

00:20:53not.

00:20:53So let me just

00:20:54ask you this.

00:20:55Was it closer

00:20:56to once a year,

00:20:58once a month,

00:20:59or once a

00:21:00week that you

00:21:02would get into

00:21:02some sort of

00:21:03physical fight

00:21:03with your

00:21:03brothers?

00:21:05I would say it

00:21:05was closer to

00:21:06once per

00:21:06month.

00:21:08Okay, once

00:21:08per month, and

00:21:09is that once

00:21:10per month for

00:21:11both of your

00:21:11brothers, or

00:21:12once a month

00:21:13with each of

00:21:13your brothers, or

00:21:14twice a month

00:21:15as a whole?

00:21:17My guess would

00:21:18be a two-to-one

00:21:19ratio of twice as

00:21:21many altercations

00:21:22with the younger

00:21:22as opposed to

00:21:24the older?

00:21:25Yeah, the

00:21:25older's bigger, so

00:21:26he's tougher to

00:21:28find.

00:21:28Well, the size

00:21:30discrepancies are a

00:21:31little strange in

00:21:32the family, but

00:21:32I don't, you're

00:21:34generally correct.

00:21:35um, and some

00:21:38sort of physical

00:21:39altercation, maybe

00:21:41say every three

00:21:42weeks, and two-to-one

00:21:44ratio.

00:21:46Okay, and what

00:21:47would be a

00:21:48typical fight?

00:21:50Again.

00:21:51Like, what would

00:21:52it involve?

00:21:52What would be

00:21:52happening?

00:21:53Like, hair

00:21:53pulling, dragging,

00:21:54kicking downstairs,

00:21:55punching, slapping,

00:21:56like, what would

00:21:57it mean?

00:21:58Uh, the only one

00:22:00who was ever

00:22:00seriously injured

00:22:01was myself with

00:22:02knuckle break.

00:22:02Uh, well, I'm

00:22:04pretty sure that

00:22:05wasn't fine for

00:22:06your brother

00:22:06either.

00:22:07I, I

00:22:08acknowledge that.

00:22:09I'm just

00:22:10trying to, um, no

00:22:13one was ever

00:22:13thrown downstairs.

00:22:15Um, I don't

00:22:17recall any weapons

00:22:18were ever used or

00:22:20implements.

00:22:21Um, so was it

00:22:23like punching?

00:22:24Yes, that would

00:22:25be the punching,

00:22:27shoving, grappling.

00:22:28And when you say

00:22:29the size discrepancy,

00:22:30were you larger than

00:22:31your brothers at

00:22:32some points?

00:22:34Um, towards the

00:22:35later years, they

00:22:37both weighed over

00:22:38350 pounds, and I

00:22:41was between 200 and

00:22:43250.

00:22:44Oh, so you were

00:22:45punching fat people?

00:22:47Yes.

00:22:48And they couldn't

00:22:49really fight back

00:22:49because they would

00:22:50too heavy, right?

00:22:52I mean, they

00:22:55outweighed me by

00:22:56something like 50%.

00:22:57No, no, come on.

00:22:58I don't want to

00:22:59characterize them.

00:22:59Come on.

00:23:00Can fat people

00:23:01fight very well?

00:23:03It's, I think

00:23:04them seem to

00:23:04challenge that

00:23:05time.

00:23:06Well, you would

00:23:07be more agile,

00:23:08right?

00:23:10And you would be

00:23:11able to maneuver

00:23:11better.

00:23:12You'd be faster,

00:23:13and you would get

00:23:14tired less quickly

00:23:15because any kind of

00:23:17physical exertion

00:23:17when you're that

00:23:18heavy is, gets you

00:23:19short of breath

00:23:19within like 10

00:23:20seconds, right?

00:23:22I suppose so.

00:23:25Well, you were

00:23:25there, wouldn't you

00:23:26say that's the

00:23:27case?

00:23:28I mean, if you had

00:23:29to put money on a

00:23:30guy who was 200

00:23:31pounds fighting a

00:23:33guy who was 350

00:23:33pounds, who would

00:23:35you think would win?

00:23:36Who would you put

00:23:37your money on?

00:23:38I mean, there's a

00:23:39reason why there are

00:23:39weight classes in

00:23:40boxing, right?

00:23:42Well, but the

00:23:42weight classes is that

00:23:43the heavier people

00:23:44would win in a fight

00:23:46with the lighter

00:23:46people, isn't it?

00:23:47No, I know, but

00:23:48it's heavier in

00:23:49terms of muscle.

00:23:50It just means

00:23:50that strength

00:23:52matters, and

00:23:54generally, somebody

00:23:55who is 200

00:23:57pounds has more

00:23:59muscle mass than

00:24:00people who are

00:24:00350 pounds because

00:24:02normally you get

00:24:02350 pounds because

00:24:05you're not

00:24:05exercising, but you

00:24:07can't really

00:24:08exercise very much

00:24:09at that weight.

00:24:10Okay, well,

00:24:11listen, I don't

00:24:11want to instrument

00:24:12too much time on

00:24:13that.

00:24:13Okay, so a

00:24:15couple, maybe

00:24:16twice a month,

00:24:17maybe three times

00:24:17a month, you

00:24:19would get into

00:24:21fistfights where

00:24:22you had some

00:24:23advantage with

00:24:24your brothers,

00:24:25right?

00:24:27I would

00:24:27characterize it

00:24:28as every three

00:24:29weeks, so

00:24:31yeah, yeah.

00:24:33Well, yes, but

00:24:33sometimes it would

00:24:34be more than

00:24:36once a month

00:24:36because you'd

00:24:37fight with one

00:24:37brother, then

00:24:38another.

00:24:39Yeah.

00:24:40I mean, you

00:24:40didn't have them

00:24:41in rotation, right?

00:24:42I can't fight you,

00:24:43it hasn't been

00:24:43three, haven't been

00:24:44six weeks since

00:24:44our last fight,

00:24:45right?

00:24:45So, I mean,

00:24:47twice a month,

00:24:48maybe, whatever,

00:24:49that's fine.

00:24:49Okay, so you

00:24:51didn't use

00:24:53implements, like

00:24:53you didn't use

00:24:54bats or straps

00:24:55or anything, so

00:24:57there was

00:24:58that.

00:24:59And what did

00:25:00your parents say

00:25:00about this

00:25:01violence?

00:25:02Hmm.

00:25:04To me or

00:25:05to other

00:25:05people?

00:25:09Um, I'm

00:25:10not sure why

00:25:10you would ask

00:25:11me that

00:25:11question.

00:25:11Let me, just

00:25:12tell me what

00:25:12you know.

00:25:15they were

00:25:16always angry

00:25:17when it

00:25:17happened.

00:25:18I can't

00:25:20recall them

00:25:20saying to me

00:25:21anything that

00:25:23seemed designed

00:25:24to address the

00:25:25problem.

00:25:26Um, they

00:25:29went to the

00:25:29psychiatrist,

00:25:30started the

00:25:31medication,

00:25:32um,

00:25:34enrolled myself

00:25:35and the younger

00:25:35one in therapy.

00:25:37That was all

00:25:38that I remember.

00:25:39And how did

00:25:40therapy go?

00:25:41There were a

00:25:42few different

00:25:42therapists over

00:25:43the years.

00:25:45I can't recall

00:25:46any of them

00:25:47actually trying to

00:25:48address the

00:25:48problem.

00:25:49And I would

00:25:50basically give a

00:25:51report of what

00:25:52had happened

00:25:53during the week

00:25:55and then come

00:25:56back another week

00:25:57and give another

00:25:57report.

00:25:59Okay, and did

00:26:00you learn any

00:26:01anger management

00:26:01strategies or

00:26:02negotiation

00:26:03strategies?

00:26:03I mean, what

00:26:04did the

00:26:04therapists suggest

00:26:06that you do

00:26:08to reduce

00:26:08the violence?

00:26:10I can't recall

00:26:11any suggestions.

00:26:13So, I'm sorry,

00:26:14what would, I

00:26:15mean, what

00:26:15would happen in

00:26:15therapy?

00:26:16I would give a

00:26:17report and I

00:26:19would basically

00:26:20it.

00:26:21I, you know,

00:26:22I'm not a

00:26:22therapist, but I'm

00:26:23not sure that's

00:26:24it.

00:26:25I mean, the

00:26:25report was like

00:26:26violence is up,

00:26:27violence is down.

00:26:28That takes,

00:26:28what, two to

00:26:29five minutes and

00:26:30then you've got

00:26:30another 55 minutes

00:26:31or 50 minutes

00:26:32in the session.

00:26:33There must have

00:26:34been something that

00:26:34was talked about.

00:26:36Obviously, there

00:26:37was, it was

00:26:38talked to fill

00:26:39the time, but

00:26:41it was never

00:26:42about anything

00:26:43consequential.

00:26:45So, I

00:26:46wouldn't just

00:26:46report violence,

00:26:47I would report

00:26:48whatever had

00:26:48happened that

00:26:49week.

00:26:50So, obviously, I

00:26:51can talk for an

00:26:51hour about the

00:26:52events of seven

00:26:53days, but.

00:26:55Oh, so you'd

00:26:56say like I played

00:26:57a video game, I

00:26:58watched a movie

00:27:00and went to

00:27:01school and had a

00:27:02test and like

00:27:02that would be.

00:27:03We never went

00:27:04to school.

00:27:05Sorry, but my

00:27:06younger brother

00:27:06went to school.

00:27:07So, he had home

00:27:07school, studied

00:27:08stuff or whatever.

00:27:08And so, that

00:27:10would be the sum

00:27:10total of your

00:27:11therapy would just

00:27:12be talking about

00:27:12your week.

00:27:14Yes.

00:27:15That's not

00:27:16therapy.

00:27:16I mean, I'm

00:27:17sure you know

00:27:17that.

00:27:18Yes.

00:27:19And you had a

00:27:19couple of

00:27:20different therapists

00:27:20who all did

00:27:21the same thing.

00:27:23I believe it

00:27:24was three in

00:27:24total and yeah,

00:27:26it was all

00:27:26about the same.

00:27:28Okay.

00:27:28All right.

00:27:29So, you didn't

00:27:29get any anger

00:27:30management strategies

00:27:31or negotiation

00:27:31strategies or

00:27:33breathing exercises

00:27:34or visualization

00:27:35exercises or

00:27:36trying to figure

00:27:36out why you

00:27:38got so angry.

00:27:39None of that

00:27:39happened.

00:27:39Is that right?

00:27:41At the very

00:27:45end, within one

00:27:46or two sessions

00:27:46of my last

00:27:47session ever, a

00:27:48therapist said

00:27:49that they had

00:27:50recently started

00:27:50studying EMDR and

00:27:53I thought that

00:27:53that might help

00:27:54me, but I never

00:27:55got an EMDR

00:27:55session.

00:27:56That was the

00:27:57closest I ever

00:27:57got to a

00:27:59specific strategy

00:27:59to address the

00:28:00problem.

00:28:01Okay.

00:28:02And what's your

00:28:03theory as to

00:28:03why you were

00:28:04so violent?

00:28:06Well, I mean, I

00:28:08guess it worked in

00:28:09the short term that

00:28:10if there was an

00:28:10immediate negative

00:28:11stimulus, that if I

00:28:14was violent, that

00:28:14stimulus would stop.

00:28:17Obviously, it wasn't

00:28:18helpful in the long

00:28:19term.

00:28:22It was not an

00:28:24environment we're

00:28:25trying to talk

00:28:25things over ever

00:28:27led to results.

00:28:29perhaps I felt

00:28:30that that was the

00:28:31only means to

00:28:32try and bring

00:28:33about any change

00:28:34or control.

00:28:35Does that seem

00:28:36like an adequate

00:28:37explanation?

00:28:39I'm not quite

00:28:40sure.

00:28:40So you're saying

00:28:41you couldn't

00:28:42ever talk or

00:28:43reason about

00:28:44things with your

00:28:45siblings, is that

00:28:46right?

00:28:47Your siblings or

00:28:48parents.

00:28:49Okay.

00:28:50So, I mean, did

00:28:51you try a bunch

00:28:51of times and it

00:28:52didn't work?

00:28:54Yes.

00:28:55Okay.

00:28:56So, yeah, give

00:28:57me an example

00:28:57if you could.

00:29:02Well, between

00:29:042019 and 2023.

00:29:07No, no, as a

00:29:08child.

00:29:11I don't want to

00:29:12just give non-answers

00:29:13here, but I'm

00:29:14going to struggle

00:29:14with anything.

00:29:15No, if you don't

00:29:15remember, that's

00:29:15fine.

00:29:16I don't want to

00:29:16make anything up,

00:29:17but I was just

00:29:18wondering if you

00:29:19remembered.

00:29:19I can remember

00:29:20maybe some

00:29:21examples as a

00:29:22child, but I

00:29:24can also remember

00:29:25being violent

00:29:26before those

00:29:26examples.

00:29:27They're not

00:29:27the genesis of

00:29:29the problem.

00:29:30Okay, so what

00:29:31were the

00:29:31examples before

00:29:32you were violent

00:29:33of trying to

00:29:34reason with

00:29:34your siblings?

00:29:39Just to

00:29:39clarify, okay,

00:29:42reason with

00:29:42siblings.

00:29:44An early

00:29:45example is not

00:29:45really coming to

00:29:46me, so it was

00:29:48definitely violent

00:29:48before these

00:29:50examples.

00:29:53how early or

00:29:55how late would

00:29:55be useful?

00:29:57Well, look, I

00:29:58can think of when

00:29:58I was 15.

00:29:59I'm just trying

00:29:59to understand

00:29:59something.

00:30:00Hang on.

00:30:01So you said,

00:30:02I couldn't

00:30:02reason with my

00:30:03siblings, so I

00:30:06used violence, and

00:30:07I understand that,

00:30:08and so what I'm

00:30:09trying to figure

00:30:10out is, did you

00:30:11try to reason with

00:30:13your siblings, and

00:30:14it failed, and

00:30:16therefore you used

00:30:16violence, or did

00:30:18you use violence on

00:30:19the belief that

00:30:20you couldn't

00:30:20reason with your

00:30:21siblings, but

00:30:21didn't really

00:30:22try?

00:30:23I know that into

00:30:25my 20s, reasoning

00:30:27with the older

00:30:27sibling was

00:30:29ineffective, but

00:30:31whether I tried

00:30:33before I started

00:30:34getting violent, I

00:30:35don't know.

00:30:37That's lost to the

00:30:38mystic history.

00:30:40Okay, all right,

00:30:41so violence was

00:30:42just like a go-to

00:30:43thing, I mean,

00:30:44based upon examples,

00:30:45and, you know,

00:30:46children are pretty

00:30:46hot-tempered as a

00:30:47whole, particularly

00:30:48boys.

00:30:49So, violence was

00:30:50just your strategy,

00:30:51in a sense, and

00:30:54it wasn't because

00:30:55you kept trying to

00:30:55reason, but

00:30:56couldn't reason, but

00:30:58violence was just

00:30:59what you did, if I

00:31:00understand this

00:31:01correctly.

00:31:01I would say that

00:31:04there's also

00:31:05tended to be a

00:31:07behavior model from

00:31:08our parents, that

00:31:10they didn't try to

00:31:10reason, they just

00:31:11got violent.

00:31:13So, I would say I

00:31:15was probably

00:31:15experimenting with

00:31:17violence before I

00:31:18knew that there

00:31:19was an alternative

00:31:19strategy.

00:31:21Well, I mean, I

00:31:22hear what you're

00:31:23saying, and

00:31:24certainly that has a

00:31:25big influence, but

00:31:26it's not the answer,

00:31:28because there are

00:31:28lots of children who

00:31:30are aggressed

00:31:31against who don't

00:31:32themselves become

00:31:33aggressive.

00:31:35But do you have an

00:31:36idea what the answer

00:31:37might be?

00:31:38I don't.

00:31:39I don't.

00:31:39But it's not just

00:31:40causal.

00:31:41Like, I don't want the

00:31:42show to present the

00:31:43argument that if you are

00:31:45aggressed against as a

00:31:46child, you automatically

00:31:48become violent.

00:31:49I mean, there's some

00:31:49other factor.

00:31:51I'm not sure what it is.

00:31:52I mean, I was

00:31:53aggressed against, I

00:31:53didn't become violent.

00:31:54A lot of my friends were

00:31:56aggressed against and

00:31:57didn't become violent, and

00:31:58you've heard people on

00:31:59this kind of call-in

00:32:01show who were

00:32:01aggressed against who

00:32:02didn't become violent.

00:32:03So, I'm not sure what

00:32:05the answer is.

00:32:05I don't know.

00:32:07It's not deterministic,

00:32:08because there are

00:32:08choices in there,

00:32:09especially by the time

00:32:10you're 18, right?

00:32:12Yes.

00:32:14Now, when you talk

00:32:16about beating up your

00:32:20fat siblings, what do

00:32:22you feel?

00:32:23I'm remorseful about the

00:32:25younger one, but not the

00:32:26older one.

00:32:28Okay.

00:32:28And tell me what

00:32:30you mean.

00:32:32Well, I guess to the

00:32:33first approximation, I

00:32:36still don't like the

00:32:37older one, but I do

00:32:38like the younger one.

00:32:39So, obviously, that

00:32:41makes it easier to think

00:32:43it was justified to

00:32:45fight with the older

00:32:45one.

00:32:47Also, of course, he was

00:32:50always larger, versus

00:32:53until teenage years,

00:32:56younger one was

00:32:57smaller.

00:32:59So, obviously, it's

00:33:00less of a fair fight.

00:33:02Do you think that your

00:33:04emotions are

00:33:04communicated in how you

00:33:06speak a bit?

00:33:07No.

00:33:09What do you think that

00:33:10is?

00:33:11What makes me believe

00:33:12they're not communicated,

00:33:13or why are they not

00:33:15communicated?

00:33:17Why do you think I'm not

00:33:19getting any sense of

00:33:20emotion from you?

00:33:22I'm not sure.

00:33:24Well, okay, let me ask you

00:33:25this.

00:33:26You say you sort of feel

00:33:27remorse for beating up on

00:33:30your younger brother, but

00:33:31not on your obese older

00:33:33brother, right?

00:33:34Mm-hmm.

00:33:36And what do you feel

00:33:38remorseful about with

00:33:39regards to your younger

00:33:40brother?

00:33:42Well, in recent

00:33:44years, reasoning with

00:33:46him has been

00:33:48effective.

00:33:49So, that would

00:33:50suggest, to some

00:33:52extent, it's been

00:33:52effective.

00:33:53So, that would

00:33:54suggest that I could

00:33:55have reasoned with

00:33:56him then.

00:33:57I just chose not to.

00:33:59With the older

00:34:00brother, reasoning has

00:34:01not been effective, so

00:34:04it wouldn't have been

00:34:05effective to try and

00:34:06reason with him at that

00:34:07time.

00:34:08So, obviously, I

00:34:09still had the choice

00:34:10in the matter, but I

00:34:12had fewer alternatives.

00:34:14Okay.

00:34:14So, because you can't

00:34:15reason with your older

00:34:17brother, you don't

00:34:18regret violence with

00:34:20him when you were

00:34:20younger.

00:34:22I'm not trying to trap

00:34:23you.

00:34:23I just want to make

00:34:24sure I understand

00:34:24your thinking.

00:34:25Yeah.

00:34:27That's a big part of

00:34:28the explanation, why

00:34:29the difference.

00:34:30Okay.

00:34:32And have you talked

00:34:34to either of your

00:34:35brothers about the

00:34:36violence that's

00:34:37that you had as

00:34:38children?

00:34:39Some with the

00:34:40younger one, not

00:34:41with the older ones.

00:34:43Okay.

00:34:44And what is your

00:34:45younger brother's

00:34:46perspective on this?

00:34:47No, I haven't

00:34:48talked with him

00:34:49enough about it, so

00:34:52there has not

00:34:53been an apology

00:34:56or the sort of

00:34:58conversation there

00:34:59should have been

00:34:59about it.

00:35:00Okay.

00:35:01Got it.

00:35:03And how do you

00:35:04think this conversation

00:35:05is going as a whole?

00:35:07I'm not sure.

00:35:10It went in a

00:35:11different direction

00:35:12than I was

00:35:13expecting, but my

00:35:15experience with your

00:35:15work is that's

00:35:17usually where the

00:35:18important things are

00:35:19found.

00:35:20And in what way is it

00:35:21going in a different

00:35:22way than you're

00:35:22expecting?

00:35:26Well, I have never

00:35:27been violent or even

00:35:30particularly aggressive

00:35:32with anyone outside

00:35:33the family, or

00:35:36even really, I

00:35:37guess, since post

00:35:392019, or maybe

00:35:41even 2018

00:35:42time frame.

00:35:44So I didn't think

00:35:45that the violence

00:35:47that I had kind of

00:35:48written that off as a

00:35:51situational event,

00:35:53that it was almost

00:35:55like I was in prison

00:35:58and had to join a

00:35:58gang to protect

00:35:59myself.

00:36:00I know it's a

00:36:00tortured comparison,

00:36:01but I didn't have

00:36:04the option of

00:36:04getting away from

00:36:05other people if

00:36:06they were being

00:36:06aggressive.

00:36:07I just had to

00:36:08fight it out.

00:36:09But now that I'm

00:36:10free, as it were,

00:36:12that really doesn't

00:36:13affect me going

00:36:14forward.

00:36:15Oh, so sorry.

00:36:16Sorry.

00:36:16I'm sorry if I

00:36:17misunderstood something.

00:36:18Sorry if I

00:36:18misunderstood something.

00:36:19So it was the

00:36:22case that your

00:36:23brothers started the

00:36:24fights.

00:36:27Because you said

00:36:27you couldn't get

00:36:28away from, hang

00:36:29on, so you said

00:36:29you couldn't get

00:36:30away from the

00:36:30aggression.

00:36:31And of course, if

00:36:32you're in a prison,

00:36:33hang on, hang on,

00:36:34hang on, let me

00:36:35talk.

00:36:36Sorry, sorry.

00:36:37So if it's the case

00:36:38that you're in a

00:36:39prison, then you

00:36:40have to join a gang

00:36:41because the more

00:36:42experienced inmates

00:36:44are going to fight

00:36:45you, going to stab

00:36:46you or shiv you or

00:36:47whatever they do,

00:36:47right?

00:36:47So you have to join

00:36:49a gang for

00:36:49protection, but you're

00:36:50not starting fights,

00:36:51you just, right?

00:36:52So if that's the

00:36:53case, if the

00:36:54analogy holds, then

00:36:55it would be the

00:36:56case that your

00:36:57brothers, despite

00:36:58the fact that they

00:36:59were 300 or 350

00:37:00pounds, were picking

00:37:02fights with you or

00:37:04starting to assault

00:37:05you and you were

00:37:06acting in self-defense.

00:37:06Listen, that could

00:37:07be the case.

00:37:08I'm not, I mean,

00:37:09it's your history,

00:37:10not mine, so I

00:37:11have to go with

00:37:12what you say.

00:37:13So if it is the

00:37:14case that you were

00:37:16responding to their

00:37:17violence, that's a

00:37:18different matter, and

00:37:19I can understand the

00:37:19prison analogy then,

00:37:20if that makes sense.

00:37:22Um, so like you

00:37:24broke your knuckle on

00:37:25your 15-year-old

00:37:27brother's head because

00:37:28he had started the

00:37:29fight.

00:37:30It was like self-defense,

00:37:32right?

00:37:32I mean, that

00:37:33particular example, I

00:37:35think I hit him

00:37:37first.

00:37:38Um, well, that

00:37:39changes the equation

00:37:40then quite a bit.

00:37:41Then you're the

00:37:41prison gang, not

00:37:42somebody who has to

00:37:43join a gang.

00:37:44You're the head of

00:37:44the prison gang.

00:37:46Um, obviously it

00:37:47was the case, not

00:37:48the case that I

00:37:50started, I went

00:37:52physical first in all

00:37:53the, the fights.

00:37:55Okay.

00:37:56You don't have to

00:37:56tell me, hang on,

00:37:58hang on, hang on.

00:37:58Sorry to interrupt you.

00:37:59You don't have to tell

00:38:00me obvious things,

00:38:01right?

00:38:02I absolutely

00:38:03understand as a guy

00:38:04with three and a half

00:38:05brain cells, I

00:38:06absolutely understand

00:38:07that in every

00:38:08altercation, you

00:38:10didn't start it.

00:38:11I get that.

00:38:12But you were

00:38:12saying like the

00:38:13prison gang analogy

00:38:14or that you were

00:38:16stuck in a situation

00:38:17and the only response

00:38:18was violence would be

00:38:19that you were the

00:38:20victim and they were

00:38:20the aggressors in the

00:38:21bulk or the majority

00:38:22of the cases or the

00:38:23vast majority of the

00:38:24cases, because otherwise

00:38:26it would be a different

00:38:26situation, right?

00:38:28Well, obviously it

00:38:30wasn't 0% of the time

00:38:31or 100% of the time.

00:38:32I feel confident it was

00:38:34more than 50% of the

00:38:35time, but I swung

00:38:36first.

00:38:37Okay.

00:38:38So you were the

00:38:39aggressor in maybe the

00:38:41majority of the

00:38:41cases.

00:38:42Well, to be clear, in

00:38:45the prison, if

00:38:46someone's stealing your

00:38:47food, but you swing

00:38:48first, that's still

00:38:49self-defense.

00:38:52So I don't.

00:38:54Sorry, what do you

00:38:54mean by stealing?

00:38:55Hang on, hang on,

00:38:56hang on.

00:38:56What do you mean by

00:38:57stealing your food?

00:38:59You mean like, because

00:39:00in prison, you only have

00:39:01one meal and if

00:39:01somebody else takes it,

00:39:02you go hungry.

00:39:03Are you saying that

00:39:04your brothers colluded

00:39:06to starve you?

00:39:08No, it was just a

00:39:09metaphor.

00:39:10Well, then stop using

00:39:11metaphors that always

00:39:12paint you as the

00:39:13victim.

00:39:14Well, I want to be

00:39:15clear that I was more

00:39:18aggressive, but it was

00:39:21never the case that I

00:39:22attacked someone for no

00:39:23reason.

00:39:24I didn't get, I didn't

00:39:26seek out fights

00:39:26for recreation.

00:39:28There was always some

00:39:29sort of pre-instigation.

00:39:31Well, hang on, I

00:39:31thought, hang on, hang

00:39:32on.

00:39:33I mean, for the first

00:39:34frickin' 20 minutes of

00:39:35our conversation, you

00:39:36could barely remember

00:39:37which way was up as a

00:39:38child.

00:39:39And now you remember

00:39:40every single time there

00:39:42was a reason.

00:39:43How can it be that

00:39:45everything's foggy, but

00:39:46you have complete

00:39:47precision about every

00:39:49time you fought?

00:39:50If there were, if I was

00:39:53pre-meditating wanting to

00:39:54get into a fight, I feel

00:39:56like I would remember that

00:39:57one incident as it being

00:39:59unique.

00:40:01So obviously, mostly, I

00:40:04don't want to say what

00:40:05percentage, but frequently

00:40:07it was very petty

00:40:09grievances that led to

00:40:10a fight.

00:40:11Okay, but if you're

00:40:12swinging first and it's

00:40:13not self-defense, then

00:40:14you would be the

00:40:15aggressor.

00:40:16Now, the aggressor's

00:40:18always going to say

00:40:18there was a reason.

00:40:19Hang on, the aggressor's

00:40:20always going to say

00:40:21there was a reason,

00:40:23right?

00:40:23So if you, if I go and

00:40:25punch a guy in the bar

00:40:26and the cops say, well,

00:40:29why did you punch him?

00:40:30And I said, well, he

00:40:31looked at me and sneered.

00:40:33Okay, that's a reason,

00:40:34right?

00:40:34That's the reason I

00:40:35punched him.

00:40:35Is it a good reason?

00:40:37No.

00:40:38So that's what I'm

00:40:39trying to understand.

00:40:41Of course, there's

00:40:42reasons why you fought.

00:40:43Everyone has a reason,

00:40:44sure.

00:40:45I mean, the, the

00:40:47bin Laden had a

00:40:48reason, but the

00:40:50question is, is

00:40:51good reason?

00:40:52Now, a good reason to

00:40:53use violence is

00:40:54self-defense.

00:40:55But if you're the

00:40:57initiator of violence

00:40:58in the majority of

00:40:59cases, then that's not

00:41:01self-defense.

00:41:01You say, oh, but

00:41:02there was a reason.

00:41:03They, they grabbed my

00:41:04toy or they looked at

00:41:05me funny or they

00:41:06wouldn't give me that

00:41:07part of the couch

00:41:07that I wanted or

00:41:08whatever, right?

00:41:09But you're still the

00:41:09violent, aggressive,

00:41:10right?

00:41:11If you think it would

00:41:13benefit me to change

00:41:15my perspective on

00:41:16this, I, I'm not, I

00:41:18don't want to defend my

00:41:20own self-image if it's

00:41:21costing me something.

00:41:22But a couple of

00:41:24things.

00:41:24Why do you think, why do

00:41:25you think, why do you

00:41:25think I'm focusing on

00:41:25this?

00:41:27Well, because it's

00:41:28important.

00:41:29Well, that's by

00:41:30definition, but why, why

00:41:31is it important?

00:41:33Um, could I make a

00:41:34couple of anecdotes?

00:41:36I know, I'd like you to

00:41:37answer the question,

00:41:38please.

00:41:38That's more polite.

00:41:39Of why you think, why I

00:41:41think you're focusing on

00:41:42it?

00:41:42Yeah.

00:41:43Hmm.

00:41:44I don't know.

00:41:45Why are you?

00:41:47Well, if you had a

00:41:49communicable disease, let's

00:41:51say you got measles or, I

00:41:52know, a bad cold or a

00:41:54flu or something, would

00:41:57you go to a dinner

00:41:58party?

00:41:59No.

00:42:00Why not?

00:42:01No, because it might

00:42:02spread.

00:42:03Right.

00:42:04So you would be a form of

00:42:06toxicity, so you would

00:42:07keep yourself isolated,

00:42:08right?

00:42:09Mm-hmm.

00:42:10So personally, I think

00:42:12that the reason you don't

00:42:13date is you feel that

00:42:15you're toxic because you

00:42:16assaulted your brothers,

00:42:18and so you're not worthy

00:42:19of love.

00:42:20Mm-hmm.

00:42:22And of course, I

00:42:23understand you were

00:42:24isolated in the country,

00:42:25your parents were

00:42:25violent, and you have a

00:42:26lot of excuses, for

00:42:27sure, and some of those

00:42:29may even be valid.

00:42:31But generally, see, the

00:42:33way that it works is, if

00:42:36you had a cure for

00:42:37cancer, would you keep

00:42:39it hidden?

00:42:41Um, I've heard this

00:42:43analogy before, and no.

00:42:44Okay.

00:42:46And if you had written

00:42:47the most beautiful song

00:42:48in the world, would you

00:42:50just keep it sitting in a

00:42:51drawer?

00:42:52Yeah.

00:42:53So, if you had a great

00:42:55treasure, you wouldn't

00:42:56hide it from the world.

00:42:57What do we hide from the

00:42:59world?

00:43:00Uh, um, uh, dangerous

00:43:05things.

00:43:06Yeah, that which we are

00:43:07ashamed of, or that which

00:43:08is dangerous or negative to

00:43:09others, right?

00:43:10So, do you believe that you

00:43:13would be a wonderful

00:43:15husband to a virtuous woman

00:43:18and a great father to your

00:43:20children or two children?

00:43:22This may sound

00:43:23counterintuitive, but I do.

00:43:26Well, why would you keep

00:43:27all of this greatness from

00:43:29women?

00:43:30Because by not dating, you

00:43:32are keeping a woman from

00:43:33having a great life with you

00:43:34and children from having a

00:43:36loving father.

00:43:38So, you are keeping this

00:43:39treasure from the world, and

00:43:41either you don't think it's a

00:43:42treasure, or you're horribly

00:43:44angry at the world, and you

00:43:46are on strike and keeping your

00:43:49wonderful husband and

00:43:51fatherness from the world for

00:43:52some reasons of spite or

00:43:54hostility or something like

00:43:55that.

00:43:56So, there's a reason why, see,

00:43:58dating is just a market.

00:43:59That's all it is.

00:44:00Dating is just a market, and

00:44:04you have a good for sale called

00:44:06yourself, and why does

00:44:10somebody not want to put

00:44:12their goods for sale in the

00:44:14market?

00:44:15And this isn't even sale, this

00:44:16is just trade.

00:44:17You're not trying to sell

00:44:17things, you're just trading,

00:44:18right?

00:44:19So, why would someone not put

00:44:22their goods for sale on the

00:44:24market?

00:44:24I mean, what are your

00:44:25reasons?

00:44:26I mean, just thinking about

00:44:27this like a farmer's market

00:44:29or a local garage sale, like,

00:44:32why would someone not put their

00:44:34goods for sale on the market?

00:44:38Would you allow me, I promise

00:44:41I'll come back to this, but

00:44:42would you allow me to mention

00:44:43a couple of things that I

00:44:44think might, I don't know if

00:44:46they changed the context or

00:44:47not, but I think they might

00:44:48help.

00:44:49With skepticism, I say go

00:44:50ahead.

00:44:50I mean, because you really

00:44:51seem like you want to do it,

00:44:52and you seem distracted until

00:44:53you do, so go ahead.

00:44:55Okay.

00:44:56One, I thought of, memory came

00:45:00to me of an incident where I, it

00:45:04wasn't a particularly aggressive

00:45:05fight, but where I was

00:45:08enthusiastic about a fight.

00:45:10So, I just wanted to mention

00:45:11that.

00:45:11I can think of one example.

00:45:13Okay, go ahead.

00:45:16Well, for the sake of brevity, I

00:45:18wasn't going to go into that

00:45:19example.

00:45:20I was just going to mention that.

00:45:20Because you said that you

00:45:22didn't start fights, and you

00:45:23didn't do it for recreation, so

00:45:24if you did, I would like to

00:45:25know the circumstances, if you

00:45:26don't mind.

00:45:28I don't remember much of the

00:45:33circumstances.

00:45:34Oh, my gosh.

00:45:35I just remember that.

00:45:36Oh, my God.

00:45:36You're killing me, man.

00:45:37I don't remember.

00:45:37You're killing me.

00:45:38What are you doing?

00:45:40I thought of a counter

00:45:41example, but I can't remember

00:45:42it.

00:45:43I don't remember what

00:45:44happened.

00:45:45I just remember that I wasn't

00:45:47angry when attacking a sibling,

00:45:49that I was like,

00:45:51gleeful about it.

00:45:53That's the only thing I

00:45:54actually remember.

00:45:55So it was like a sadistic

00:45:56pleasure.

00:45:58Yeah, gleeful violence that you

00:46:00want to reflect is kind of

00:46:01sadistic.

00:46:01I wasn't trying to injure him,

00:46:03per se.

00:46:04Okay.

00:46:05Please don't start hedging

00:46:06this nonsense, right?

00:46:07There were times when I was

00:46:08very angry, and I really wanted

00:46:09to injure them.

00:46:10In this case, it was, I don't

00:46:15know, performative more so.

00:46:18Okay, listen.

00:46:18If you can't remember the

00:46:19details, let's move on.

00:46:20Let's move on, because there's

00:46:21something else that you wanted

00:46:22to say.

00:46:22Okay, yes.

00:46:24I can recall going to parents

00:46:27with a complaint about a

00:46:28sibling.

00:46:29So I tried to handle whatever

00:46:30the complaint was.

00:46:31It happened numerous times, so I

00:46:33can't think of a specific

00:46:34complaint.

00:46:34Sorry, what age?

00:46:35And I would guess eight.

00:46:38Okay, got it.

00:46:39But I know it happened over a

00:46:40period of years.

00:46:41And was it about your older or

00:46:42younger sibling in this case?

00:46:43In this particular case, it was

00:46:45about the younger one.

00:46:46Okay, got it.

00:46:47Because the response I got was,

00:46:49well, you're bigger than him,

00:46:50aren't you?

00:46:52So, at other times, they were

00:46:54very upset about it.

00:46:55But in some cases, the specific

00:46:59instructions I got from my parents

00:47:01was to solve the problem with

00:47:04violence.

00:47:05That's the implication there.

00:47:07I don't.

00:47:07Rather than.

00:47:08Listen, sorry, you were there.

00:47:09I wasn't.

00:47:09That's not the immediate thing

00:47:11that I get.

00:47:12What do you get?

00:47:13Well, if you say, my younger

00:47:18brother is bothering me, or he's

00:47:22bullying me, or he hits me, then

00:47:25saying, well, you're bigger than

00:47:26him means don't let him.

00:47:27Doesn't mean go beat him up.

00:47:31I mean, it's not like giving him a

00:47:34beat down, but it does mean, you

00:47:37know, use your superior strength

00:47:40to physically remove him from the

00:47:43environment, at least.

00:47:44Well, or if he's grabbing your

00:47:45toy and you're bigger, you're

00:47:47saying, look, you're eight, he's

00:47:48five, just hang on to your toy.

00:47:50Look, it's not great parenting, but

00:47:52I'm not sure it's licensed to beat

00:47:53him up.

00:47:54I got the impression it was more

00:47:56than don't allow him to take the

00:47:57object from you.

00:47:59I can't recall the specific

00:48:01complaints.

00:48:01You were already in a violent frame

00:48:03of mind.

00:48:03So, and you'd already committed

00:48:05violence against him.

00:48:06So, it would be likely that you

00:48:08would have that interpretation.

00:48:10I'm just saying from the outside,

00:48:11it could be saying, use your

00:48:13superior size so that he doesn't

00:48:15bother you, or he doesn't take

00:48:17your toy, not you can end up

00:48:20breaking your knuckle on his

00:48:22head.

00:48:24Well, if I were told that at the

00:48:25age of eight, that was before the

00:48:28violence was very significant.

00:48:30No, I'm sorry.

00:48:31You know, no, you don't know that

00:48:32because you can't remember much

00:48:34about that time.

00:48:35That is true.

00:48:35Yeah, so, hang on.

00:48:36And the other thing, too, is hang

00:48:38on.

00:48:38You also said that your parents got

00:48:39very upset about the violence and

00:48:41sent you to therapy and got you a

00:48:43medication.

00:48:43So, without a doubt, your parents

00:48:45didn't want you using violence,

00:48:46right?

00:48:48Well, I'll consider that.

00:48:50No, no, this is what you told me.

00:48:52You can't say, well, my parents got

00:48:54really upset when there was violence.

00:48:56My parents sent me to a

00:48:57psychiatrist.

00:48:57They sent me to a psychologist.

00:48:59I'm still talking.

00:48:59They sent me to a psychiatrist.

00:49:01They sent me to a psychologist.

00:49:02They got really upset at me using

00:49:04violence.

00:49:04But one time, they said this

00:49:06ambiguous thing that I figured was

00:49:07permission for beatdowns.

00:49:09It would be clear, if they were

00:49:11encouraging violence at eight, but

00:49:13then were opposed to it at 13,

00:49:16But you can't remember.

00:49:17They could have, their positions

00:49:18could have evolved on that.

00:49:19No, no, you can't remember.

00:49:20I have to interrupt you because you

00:49:21keep going around in these circles.

00:49:23You can't say, Steph, I can't answer

00:49:25your questions because I don't

00:49:26remember things, and then say, you

00:49:29know, specifically when your parents

00:49:30were or weren't against violence.

00:49:32Everything that you're saying is

00:49:34covering your ass.

00:49:35I mean, personally, I think you need

00:49:37to grapple with the fact that you

00:49:39beat up on a semi-regular basis your

00:49:43brothers and that you were the

00:49:45aggressor.

00:49:45And again, I have sympathy for this

00:49:47situation as a whole, but the

00:49:50question is not what I think, but

00:49:52what does your conscience think of the

00:49:55fact that even when you were an

00:49:56adult, you were piledriving your kid

00:49:58brother in the head?

00:50:00I mean, that's not fun to live with,

00:50:01is it?

00:50:03No.

00:50:04The one last thing I wanted to

00:50:08mention is that my social isolation

00:50:10is not specific to dating.

00:50:12As I say, that may not be here nor

00:50:14there, but I'm very reserved with

00:50:18everyone.

00:50:20So, do you have great value that you

00:50:24are withholding from the world?

00:50:26Like, I think I'm pretty valuable in

00:50:28terms of philosophy and conversation

00:50:29and self-knowledge and spreading

00:50:31virtue.

00:50:31So, I go out into the world and I

00:50:33take my punches, so to speak, and I

00:50:36speak reason to the world and I

00:50:38interfere with the plans of evildoers

00:50:40and they get their punches back and

00:50:42so on, right?

00:50:43So, I believe that I have great value

00:50:47to offer to the world.

00:50:48So, I go out into the world and I

00:50:51offer up that value.

00:50:52And, to a large degree, the world

00:50:54both agrees and strongly disagrees,

00:50:57which is kind of what you would

00:50:57expect when it comes to morals.

00:51:01So, if I believe I have great value

00:51:04in the world, but I isolate myself,

00:51:08what would that mean?

00:51:09Why would I do that?

00:51:11Well, my interpretation of it, which

00:51:14may be inaccurate, is that I'm afraid

00:51:18of other people, sort of specifically

00:51:21people who I interact with on a

00:51:24regular basis that I've been forced

00:51:27to develop relationships with.

00:51:31I think I could name several examples

00:51:34who would agree that I brought

00:51:35significant value to them, but I still

00:51:38don't initiate conversations with people

00:51:40where we're not forced together.

00:51:43And, my explanation for that, which

00:51:46could just be a coping mechanism,

00:51:50would be that it's fear of

00:51:52hostility, that after I've been

00:51:56around someone enough to where I think

00:51:58I have an estimation of how they'll

00:52:01react, I'll talk with them.

00:52:05But, I don't like to have more than

00:52:08necessary conversations with people

00:52:09that I'm not confident what their

00:52:11reaction will be.

00:52:13So, it's that other people are bad,

00:52:15that's why you keep to yourself?

00:52:18I understand, of course, that's a very

00:52:20self-serving narrative.

00:52:22No, no, I'm just trying to understand.

00:52:23It's other people are bad and aggressive,

00:52:25so you keep to yourself.

00:52:28I, yes.

00:52:30Okay.

00:52:32And, what evidence do you have

00:52:35that people are worse

00:52:39than you were in the past?

00:52:41Worse than I was in the past?

00:52:44Maybe I don't,

00:52:47but that doesn't mean they're safe to

00:52:49interact with just because they're not

00:52:50that bad.

00:52:51Okay.

00:52:52So, other people get great value from

00:52:55you, but you withhold that value from

00:52:57them because they're bad.

00:52:59Or, they could get great value from

00:53:01you.

00:53:02They, they could.

00:53:04I'm not saying that they're bad, but.

00:53:06No, no, because they could be

00:53:08aggressive and wrong and, and, and

00:53:10mean and so on, right?

00:53:11Yes, but not that.

00:53:11So, that's bad, right?

00:53:12Not that any particular person is

00:53:14necessarily bad.

00:53:16Okay, but it's enough for you to be

00:53:18isolated, so it means it's a pretty

00:53:19strong principle, right?

00:53:21So, let's not caveat this to death.

00:53:23Mm-hmm.

00:53:23Okay?

00:53:25So, you have a great deal of value to

00:53:28offer people, but they don't deserve

00:53:31it because they're bad.

00:53:33I characterize them more as a self-defense

00:53:35mechanism than whether they deserve it

00:53:38or not.

00:53:40Well, if you have great value to offer,

00:53:44then you should share that with people,

00:53:46right?

00:53:47If you were a wonderful singer,

00:53:49wouldn't it be nice to sing for people

00:53:50if you enjoy singing?

00:53:52If you are able to heal people at a

00:53:54touch, shouldn't you touch people and

00:53:56heal them?

00:53:57If you tell wonderful stories and you

00:53:59enjoy telling stories, shouldn't you

00:54:00tell wonderful stories and entertain

00:54:02people around the fire light?

00:54:05That all makes sense as far as it goes.

00:54:07Yes.

00:54:08Okay, great.

00:54:08So, tell me the value, and I'm not

00:54:10disagreeing with you.

00:54:11I just want to make sure I understand

00:54:12it from your perspective.

00:54:13If someone were to ask me, like,

00:54:15what's the value, Steph, that you bring

00:54:17to the world or to relationships and so

00:54:19on, I mean, I won't go through the

00:54:21whole list, but I think it's fairly

00:54:22clear that I certainly believe that I

00:54:24bring a lot of value, and people have

00:54:26wanted to talk to me my whole life

00:54:27because my insights provide them value.

00:54:29So, I would say, you know, I'm a good

00:54:32person, I'm a funny person, I'm a warm

00:54:34person, affectionate, and so on.

00:54:37So, I know how I provide value, and

00:54:39fortunately, there are enough people in

00:54:41the world who agree with me that I can

00:54:43make a go of it.

00:54:44So, what are the value, or the

00:54:47values, not the morals, but what is the

00:54:49value, or are the values that you

00:54:51provide to people in the world?

00:54:55Do you want me to get very specific

00:54:58with examples of people that I think

00:55:00I've brought a specific value to, or

00:55:03could I say...

00:55:04Jesus Christ, man.

00:55:05Jesus Christ.

00:55:06I'm sorry.

00:55:07Okay, just have a conversation.

00:55:08What are you doing all this lawyering

00:55:10with before?

00:55:11See, this is a way you don't add value.

00:55:13I just keep asking you questions, and

00:55:15you keep not answering them.

00:55:17That's annoying.

00:55:18Well, I'm a little afraid of saying

00:55:20something inaccurate, and I'm afraid

00:55:23if I give you bad information, then,

00:55:26you know, I'm harming us both.

00:55:28What do you mean, bad information?

00:55:29I don't know what you mean.

00:55:30You mean you lie?

00:55:31Well, yeah, don't lie, sure.

00:55:33If I mischaracterize something

00:55:35inadvertently.

00:55:38Well, I'm not sure what that means.

00:55:40If you make a mistake?

00:55:42Yeah.

00:55:43I would consider this a high-stakes

00:55:44conversation.

00:55:45But I'm asking you what value you think

00:55:48you provide to people.

00:55:49Okay.

00:55:50How can you be mistaken?

00:55:52It's like asking you, what is your

00:55:54favorite color?

00:55:55Can you be mistaken?

00:55:56Well...

00:55:57I mean, all you can do is lie or not,

00:55:58and I'm sure you're going to tell the

00:56:00truth, so I'm not sure what you mean by

00:56:02what if you make a mistake.

00:56:03I'm asking you what value you think

00:56:06you provide to people.

00:56:08Because you say, I have great value.

00:56:09I'd be a great husband, a great father,

00:56:11and I provide great value to people,

00:56:13but I withhold it because they're bad or

00:56:14mean.

00:56:15So I'm just asking, and I'm not asking

00:56:17from a skeptical standpoint.

00:56:18I genuinely want to know

00:56:21what value

00:56:22you believe that you provide to people.

00:56:26There are several people who have sought

00:56:29my financial advice within the last few

00:56:32years, as well as my slightly smaller

00:56:38number of people who have sought my

00:56:39relationship advice over the last two

00:56:42or three years.

00:56:43Sorry, what kind of relationship advice?

00:56:47Like what kind of relationships?

00:56:49Do you mean family stuff?

00:56:52None of them were asking me about their

00:56:54romantic relationships.

00:56:55They were asking me about their family

00:56:58relationships and or the romantic

00:57:01relationships of their family members.

00:57:03So they came to you, who's had one date,

00:57:07for romantic advice for others.

00:57:09It was not romantic advice so much as it

00:57:11was, so there are some people who know

00:57:14that I have a moral standard for my

00:57:18parents and what I consider to be abusive

00:57:21behavior.

00:57:22And so it was more like that in the

00:57:24context of it.

00:57:25It happened to be in the context of

00:57:26romantic relationships, but it wasn't

00:57:28specifically about romance.

00:57:30Okay, got it.

00:57:31All right.

00:57:31So you can give some good financial

00:57:33advice, or at least people have asked

00:57:34you for financial advice, a couple of

00:57:37people, and one or two people have asked

00:57:40you about relationship advice.

00:57:42Yes.

00:57:44Okay, so you've been an adult for 11

00:57:47years.

00:57:48How much time have you spent giving this

00:57:51good advice in the realm of finance and

00:57:55relationships?

00:57:56I mean, 2023 would be about the earliest

00:58:01you could start it, probably, for the

00:58:04last three years or so.

00:58:06Okay.

00:58:07Did I ask you when it started?

00:58:10Well, you asked how many years, correct?

00:58:11No, how many hours have you spent giving

00:58:15people financial and relationship advice

00:58:18over the course of your adulthood?

00:58:20I apologize.

00:58:21I thought you meant how many years it has

00:58:24been going on, not the number of hours

00:58:26specifically.

00:58:29Okay, I mean, I've got a life to lead, so I

00:58:32can't do all these pauses.

00:58:34I mean, you and I both know it's not been

00:58:36more than a couple of hours.

00:58:37No, it's been more than a couple of hours.

00:58:39I can think of specific conversations that

00:58:42lasted in excess of two hours.

00:58:45Okay, so six or seven or eight hours, right?

00:58:47I was going to start my estimate at maybe

00:58:49like 40, but I don't know.

00:58:5240 hours giving people financial and

00:58:54relationship advice?

00:58:55It's an estimate, but yes.

00:58:57Okay, that's fine.

00:58:59We can go with 40 hours.

00:59:01So in 11 years, you've provided value 40

00:59:04hours in this way.

00:59:06Yeah.

00:59:07Do you think that's providing a lot of

00:59:09value?

00:59:10I'm not sure how to measure a lot.

00:59:12I wish there would have been more, yes.

00:59:15Okay, it's not much value.

00:59:17I mean, let's say that I said I'm a great

00:59:20philosopher, and I have spent 40 hours over

00:59:25the last 11 years doing philosophy.

00:59:27What would you say?

00:59:29If you had 40 hours of content, I could see

00:59:32that being very valuable 40 hours of content.

00:59:34Okay, but over 11 years or so, would you say

00:59:39that 40 hours of content over 11 years is a

00:59:42lot of value?

00:59:44Assuming that they're not big productions and

00:59:46movies like they're just me talking.

00:59:49Right, right.

00:59:49I mean, there's still a lot of pre-production

00:59:52that goes into learning philosophy before you

00:59:54can talk about it for 40 hours.

00:59:58Because if you're going to argue that I'm

01:00:01underperforming my potential, I'm not going to

01:00:03dispute that.

01:00:05Okay.

01:00:06So, outside of the 40 hours over the last 11

01:00:11years, what other values, outside of, you know,

01:00:15just working for someone and getting paid, what

01:00:17other value have you provided?

01:00:19Well, I own a couple of rental properties, so...

01:00:23No, I said outside of...

01:00:24I said outside...

01:00:25Hang on.

01:00:25I just said outside of economics.

01:00:27Did you not hear?

01:00:28Well, I apologize.

01:00:32In my head, I separated jobs from other forms

01:00:35of economics.

01:00:38There's been mucellaneous here and there, but

01:00:40nothing really worth mentioning.

01:00:43Okay.

01:00:43So, in 11 years as an adult, you've provided

01:00:46about 40 hours of value to people in your

01:00:50life, outside of economics.

01:00:53That seems a reasonable approximation.

01:00:56Okay.

01:00:57So, is that...

01:00:58You said that that's underperforming.

01:01:00Is that right?

01:01:01Is that what you believe?

01:01:02Yes.

01:01:03Okay.

01:01:03So, do you have only 40 hours of value to

01:01:06provide in 11 years, or do you have more

01:01:11value but have withheld it?

01:01:12Because of the people being bad or mean or

01:01:14something.

01:01:17So, obviously, I had time where I could

01:01:18have had more conversations.

01:01:21So, it's definitely the case that I could

01:01:23have provided more conversations.

01:01:27Well, or, you know, with your knowledge of

01:01:29economics, you could have written a blog or

01:01:30done a podcast or some sort of media.

01:01:33I mean, it's been pretty easy to do that over

01:01:35the last 11 years.

01:01:37Or something.

01:01:38You could have given speeches.

01:01:39You could have given free financial advice to

01:01:43the poor.

01:01:43I mean, there's tons of things that you could

01:01:45have done that would have provided value,

01:01:47right?

01:01:47Yes.

01:01:49And that's my genuine question.

01:01:50You're obviously a very intelligent guy.

01:01:52You're well-read.

01:01:53You've been studying economics for a long

01:01:54time and so on.

01:01:56And you have good advice to give economically.

01:01:59I'm thinking sort of Caleb Hammer, who does

01:02:01these reviews of people's finances and so on,

01:02:03which is, I think, quite a useful...

01:02:05Oh, Dave Ramsey or something like that.

01:02:07And so, again, just sort of help me understand,

01:02:09is it because the world is too full of mean

01:02:12people that you can provide a lot more value,

01:02:13but you don't?

01:02:17I don't...

01:02:18For example, with a blog or a podcast,

01:02:21that might be a separate issue than my

01:02:25social anxiety of talking to people in person.

01:02:28So I'm not sure those are the same cause.

01:02:32I'm sorry to interrupt.

01:02:34I didn't quite understand your characterization.

01:02:37I thought I understood, and I'm sorry if I got

01:02:39this wrong.

01:02:40I thought I understood that you withheld value

01:02:43from people because they were mean or cruel or

01:02:45bad, which would make sense, right?

01:02:48I mean, if there's some criminal gang in the

01:02:51neighborhood and I feel nervous talking to them,

01:02:53that's not because I have social anxiety, but

01:02:54because they're dangerous criminals, right?

01:02:57Well, this may not be an...

01:03:00I'm sorry to keep hesitating like that all the

01:03:02time.

01:03:03What I'm trying to say is I definitely do have

01:03:05social anxiety.

01:03:09Numerous opportunities at work where I could

01:03:11just strike up a conversation with someone,

01:03:13but I don't.

01:03:14I just keep to myself and I do my job.

01:03:17I listen to my podcast and I don't really

01:03:19interact with anyone else.

01:03:23I don't know if that is merely social anxiety

01:03:26or if there's something else going on.

01:03:29I have no idea.

01:03:29Honestly, I have no idea.

01:03:31I can't possibly judge that.

01:03:33I was just pointing out that you said that it

01:03:35was a rational response to people being mean,

01:03:37or at least it seemed like it was a rational

01:03:38response to people being mean.

01:03:40And then when you say, when you just drop in

01:03:42that it's social anxiety, it's confusing, right?

01:03:44Because then that would just say it's not a

01:03:45problem with people being mean.

01:03:46It's a problem in an exaggerated fear response

01:03:49to social situations that aren't scary.

01:03:52Does that make sense?

01:03:53Like if you're being cross-examined by the FBI

01:03:56and you might spend 20 years in prison

01:03:58if you make a mistake, it's not irrational

01:04:01to be anxious, right?

01:04:03I think the reason that I'm socially anxious...

01:04:06I asked you a question and I would really,

01:04:08really appreciate it if you could get into

01:04:09the habit of answering my questions.

01:04:11I thought that question was rhetorical

01:04:13because the answer is yes.

01:04:15Okay, so yes.

01:04:15So you would not be suffering from social anxiety

01:04:19if you were nervous about being cross-examined

01:04:21by the FBI, right?

01:04:23So if you're in a situation of hostility,

01:04:26having anxiety or caution or fear

01:04:29makes perfect sense.

01:04:30Nobody says, I had a panic attack

01:04:33the exact moment that a bear started chasing

01:04:35me in the woods, right?

01:04:36Because you'd say, well, no, your fight or flight

01:04:38kicked in because a bear was chasing you

01:04:39in the woods, right?

01:04:40So this is what I'm trying to get across to you

01:04:42is that when you say, well, I don't give value

01:04:45to people because people are mean,

01:04:46and then you say, I have social anxiety,

01:04:49these two things don't fit together in my mind.

01:04:51At least, I know that there's some overlap

01:04:53and so on, but when I asked you

01:04:55why you don't provide value,

01:04:56you didn't say because I have anxiety,

01:04:58you said it's because people are mean.

01:04:59In other words, you're in a situation

01:05:00of hostility or danger,

01:05:02which makes perfect sense.

01:05:03I wouldn't want to share value with people

01:05:05when they're attacking me either, right?

01:05:07I mean, I've been attacked by the media

01:05:09and I don't try to share value

01:05:11with the media, right?

01:05:13So if it's that people are mean,

01:05:15then it's a rational response

01:05:17to not want to share the value that you have.

01:05:21But if it's social anxiety,

01:05:22that's a totally different category,

01:05:24if that makes sense.

01:05:25I was thinking about them as the same thing,

01:05:29but I think I understand

01:05:31the distinction you're making.

01:05:34Well, I don't want to get into water.

01:05:36I don't want to get into water

01:05:37with man-eating sharks, right?

01:05:39Because they could bite me.

01:05:41So that's a rational anxiety.

01:05:43That's a rational fear.

01:05:44However, if it's a bunch of minnows

01:05:46or cute dolphins or something like that,

01:05:49then being afraid to go in

01:05:50would not make as much sense, right?

01:05:53I'm not saying it's a rational fear,

01:05:55but I'm sorry,

01:05:56did you want me to answer that question?

01:05:58Yes, it would make sense.

01:05:59I mean, how many times have I asked you

01:06:00to answer my questions?

01:06:01I don't know if you asked me

01:06:02if you want me to answer your question.

01:06:05I was just moving on

01:06:07because I thought that was a given

01:06:09that sharks are more frightening than men.

01:06:12Right.

01:06:13But that's the difference, right?

01:06:15So if you have anxiety

01:06:16about getting into a swimming pool

01:06:18with no fish in it

01:06:19and you have the same,

01:06:21that would be probably

01:06:22a hydrophobia fear of water

01:06:23or something like that, right?

01:06:24But if you have anxiety

01:06:26about getting into water

01:06:27where there are shark fins,

01:06:28that's not anxiety.

01:06:29That's a rational response, right?

01:06:31So when you say,

01:06:32I don't share value

01:06:32because people are mean,

01:06:34that makes sense.

01:06:34But then if you say,

01:06:35well, I don't share anxiety

01:06:37because,

01:06:38I'm sorry,

01:06:39I don't share my value

01:06:40because I have an irrational anxiety

01:06:41of people,

01:06:42that's a different matter.

01:06:44What if you have a fear

01:06:46of swimming in water

01:06:49because of a history

01:06:50of shark attacks

01:06:51and that fear

01:06:52has been generalized

01:06:53to pools

01:06:54even where you're confident

01:06:56there are no sharks,

01:06:57but you still get anxious

01:06:58around the being in water at all?

01:07:01Well, that would be something

01:07:02that you would have to reason

01:07:03with yourself and say,

01:07:04it makes sense to be anxious

01:07:06about swimming with sharks.

01:07:07It doesn't make sense

01:07:08to be anxious about swimming in water

01:07:10and you would go through exposure therapy

01:07:12and you would recognize

01:07:13that your association was irrational

01:07:15and you would work to undo

01:07:16that irrational association, right?

01:07:19That's a logical procedure there.

01:07:23For me, the connection was

01:07:26that my generalized social anxiety

01:07:31is because,

01:07:34and I acknowledge

01:07:35it's an irrational fear,

01:07:38but the reason I'm reserved

01:07:41or cagey with people

01:07:44that I haven't had the time

01:07:45to vet out

01:07:48I think is because

01:07:49of previous,

01:07:51the hostile people

01:07:52and therefore,

01:07:55I acknowledge, of course,

01:07:56that that doesn't mean

01:07:57that everyone's hostile,

01:07:58but it still feels that way,

01:08:01that they might potentially

01:08:02prove hostile

01:08:03if I don't have experience

01:08:04with that individual

01:08:05to know for sure.

01:08:07Okay.

01:08:08And do you think

01:08:09that you might be doing anything

01:08:11to generate that hostility?

01:08:13It seems logical, yes.

01:08:16Okay, and what do you think

01:08:17you might be doing

01:08:18to generate,

01:08:19I'm not saying

01:08:19you're fully responsible

01:08:20for people's hostility

01:08:21or whatever,

01:08:22but what is it that you think

01:08:23you might be doing

01:08:23to generate hostility

01:08:25in people?

01:08:26I don't know that I have

01:08:27a good answer to that.

01:08:29What I can say is that...

01:08:30So usually, I'll tell you,

01:08:30I'll tell you the answer

01:08:31if you don't have a good answer.

01:08:32So usually the answer

01:08:34is that if we treat people

01:08:37as if they are hostile to us,

01:08:40we generally frustrate

01:08:42and insult them.

01:08:43Does that make sense?

01:08:45So for instance,

01:08:46earlier you were saying

01:08:46that you were afraid

01:08:47of answering

01:08:48because you thought

01:08:49I might get mean

01:08:50or treat you badly

01:08:52if you made an honest mistake.

01:08:55I didn't say that.

01:08:57Okay, please.

01:08:58I said if I made an honest...

01:08:59I said if I made an honest...

01:09:00I said if I made an honest...

01:09:01I said I worried

01:09:01that if I made an honest mistake,

01:09:04it might prevent me

01:09:06from getting value

01:09:07out of this conversation

01:09:08or prevent you

01:09:09from being able

01:09:10to do your job

01:09:11in this conversation.

01:09:13It wasn't specifically

01:09:14that you would get hostile.

01:09:15It's just that...

01:09:15No, that there would be

01:09:17something negative about it.

01:09:18The conversation

01:09:19would prove fruitless.

01:09:20Okay, so why...

01:09:22Why would the conversation

01:09:23be fruitless

01:09:24if you make an honest mistake?

01:09:26So if you said,

01:09:28I grew up in XYZ town

01:09:30and then a second

01:09:32or two later you said,

01:09:32oh, no, you know what?

01:09:33It was one town over.

01:09:34It was ABC town.

01:09:36So you made an honest mistake

01:09:37and you corrected it

01:09:38or whatever.

01:09:39How would that make

01:09:40the conversation

01:09:41be fruitless?

01:09:43Well, if I didn't realize

01:09:45my mistake,

01:09:48if I got confused

01:09:49about anatomy

01:09:50when talking to a doctor

01:09:51and described the pain

01:09:53as being close

01:09:54to an organ

01:09:55that it actually wasn't

01:09:56and I didn't realize

01:09:57that mistake,

01:09:58you could see

01:09:59how that would

01:10:00lead to a false diagnosis.

01:10:03Well, no,

01:10:03because the doctor

01:10:04would know

01:10:04that you might be able

01:10:05to make...

01:10:05You might make a mistake

01:10:06and you're not a doctor

01:10:07so he would ask you

01:10:08to point to where

01:10:08the pain was, right?

01:10:10Or he'd feel around

01:10:11your abdomen or wherever

01:10:12and he would feel

01:10:13for the pain, right?

01:10:14The doctor wouldn't just say,

01:10:16if you're not a doctor

01:10:17and you said,

01:10:17well, my pain is,

01:10:18you know,

01:10:19right tucked in

01:10:19behind my appendix,

01:10:21the doctor wouldn't

01:10:22accept that, right?

01:10:23So the doctor

01:10:23would verify that

01:10:24and would check

01:10:25where the pain was

01:10:26and would do a scan

01:10:26and this, that,

01:10:27and the other, right?

01:10:28So the analogy

01:10:29is somewhat limited.

01:10:30I met some pretty

01:10:31incompetent doctors,

01:10:33but I do...

01:10:34I agree.

01:10:35you would probably

01:10:36have sussed out my mistake.

01:10:38I hope that you wouldn't

01:10:39put me in the category

01:10:40of an incompetent doctor

01:10:42because that would be

01:10:42pretty aggressive of you.

01:10:44Yes.

01:10:44No, I clarified

01:10:45in your case

01:10:46you would have

01:10:47felt out the mistake.

01:10:48Right.

01:10:49So if you say

01:10:50it's right in behind

01:10:52my appendix

01:10:52but it turns out

01:10:53to be somewhere else,

01:10:54that, that's not

01:10:55a problem, right?

01:10:57In retrospect,

01:10:58I was overly concerned

01:10:59about it.

01:11:00So you were concerned

01:11:01about a negative outcome

01:11:02if you made

01:11:04an honest mistake.

01:11:06Mistakes frequently

01:11:07have negative outcomes.

01:11:08I'm just asking you

01:11:10that you were concerned

01:11:12about having

01:11:13a negative outcome

01:11:13if you made

01:11:14an honest mistake.

01:11:15Yes.

01:11:16Now, how could we

01:11:18have a negative outcome

01:11:20if you made

01:11:21an honest mistake?

01:11:23Because that would be

01:11:24to say

01:11:25that I would somehow

01:11:26be negative

01:11:27in interacting with you

01:11:29if you made

01:11:31an honest mistake.

01:11:33I don't want

01:11:34to characterize it

01:11:35as you

01:11:36being negative.

01:11:38I'm the only other

01:11:39person in the interaction.

01:11:41But there's a result

01:11:42of the conversation

01:11:44regardless of the

01:11:46either person

01:11:47being negative.

01:11:48There's a result

01:11:50in the conversation.

01:11:51What does that mean?

01:11:52A correct

01:11:53or incorrect diagnosis

01:11:55to return

01:11:56to the medical analogy.

01:11:57Okay, so give me

01:11:58an example

01:11:58of an honest error

01:12:00that you were afraid

01:12:02of making

01:12:02or have made

01:12:03that would result

01:12:05in the conversation

01:12:06being unhelpful

01:12:08or pointless

01:12:08or fruitless.

01:12:10Well,

01:12:11I earlier characterized

01:12:15my aggression

01:12:17against my siblings

01:12:18as entirely defensive.

01:12:21and then

01:12:23I re-characterized

01:12:24it as

01:12:25there were

01:12:26at least

01:12:26some times

01:12:27where it wasn't.

01:12:29Well, no,

01:12:30you said the majority

01:12:31of the time

01:12:32it wasn't.

01:12:33Okay, and so

01:12:34you made,

01:12:35let's say,

01:12:36I don't know

01:12:37that that's an honest mistake

01:12:38because

01:12:39honest mistakes

01:12:40tend to be random

01:12:41but every time

01:12:42you've made a statement

01:12:43that you've ended up

01:12:44having to correct,

01:12:45it's gone from being

01:12:46more flattering to you

01:12:47to less flattering of you.

01:12:48So I don't know

01:12:49that that's a,

01:12:49I'm not saying it's conscious

01:12:50or you're lying

01:12:52but when mistakes

01:12:53only go one way

01:12:54they tend to be

01:12:55at least unconsciously

01:12:57motivated

01:12:58but okay,

01:12:59so you went from saying

01:12:59I'm a victim

01:13:00to wait,

01:13:01I was actually the aggressor

01:13:02the majority of times

01:13:04and

01:13:05again,

01:13:05whether that's an honest mistake

01:13:06or not,

01:13:07I don't really believe it is

01:13:09and again,

01:13:09I'm not saying you're dishonest,

01:13:10I'm just saying that there's

01:13:11an ego-protective motive

01:13:12that's going on there

01:13:13but we still,

01:13:15it wasn't a negative outcome,

01:13:17I didn't berate you

01:13:18or call you a liar

01:13:18or anything,

01:13:19right?

01:13:20No,

01:13:21but whether the mistake

01:13:23was honest or dishonest,

01:13:24if I had just

01:13:26said the accurate thing

01:13:28the first time,

01:13:29it would have saved us time.

01:13:30Okay,

01:13:31so let me ask you this,

01:13:33why,

01:13:34since you knew

01:13:35that you were the aggressor

01:13:36the majority of times,

01:13:37we can get into this,

01:13:38why did you tell me

01:13:39that you weren't?

01:13:41Maybe I'm just being defensive.

01:13:43Well,

01:13:43don't maybe me,

01:13:44you're the only person

01:13:45in your head,

01:13:45I can't answer it.

01:13:47Well,

01:13:48you have an uncanny ability

01:13:49to assess out

01:13:51when people are just

01:13:52being defensive.

01:13:54I,

01:13:56I'm still

01:13:57clinging to

01:13:58my defensive narrative

01:14:00about a majority

01:14:01of the conflicts,

01:14:03that even if I was

01:14:04the first one

01:14:04to get physical,

01:14:05I wasn't the first one

01:14:07to,

01:14:08that doesn't mean

01:14:09I instigated

01:14:10the conflict,

01:14:11and I suspect

01:14:12if my siblings

01:14:14had had,

01:14:16if they

01:14:17would have won

01:14:18the fights

01:14:18more consistently,

01:14:20they probably

01:14:20would have

01:14:21initiated

01:14:22more consistently.

01:14:24I mean,

01:14:25that's a

01:14:25what-if universe

01:14:26where they were

01:14:27different ages

01:14:28and weren't obese

01:14:29and right,

01:14:29so that's a whole difference.

01:14:31Okay,

01:14:32so you had

01:14:33a bit of a self-serving,

01:14:35and this one,

01:14:35we all do,

01:14:35there's no big,

01:14:36there's no big curse on you,

01:14:37so you had a bit

01:14:38of a self-serving narrative,

01:14:39and you decided

01:14:41to tell me

01:14:42that you were the victim,

01:14:43I mean,

01:14:44even when you

01:14:45punched

01:14:45your 15-year-old

01:14:47kid brother

01:14:47so hard in the head

01:14:48that your knuckle broke,

01:14:49you said that you

01:14:50were the only one

01:14:51that got injured,

01:14:51and I'm like,

01:14:52no,

01:14:52I'm pretty sure

01:14:52it wasn't fun for him,

01:14:53do you remember that?

01:14:55I understand,

01:14:56of course,

01:14:56he was injured.

01:14:57No,

01:14:58that's not what you said,

01:14:58you said I was the one

01:14:59who was injured.

01:15:01I indicated

01:15:02that the most significant

01:15:03injury across

01:15:04our entire childhood,

01:15:05adulthood,

01:15:06whatever,

01:15:07was the broken knuckle.

01:15:09All right.

01:15:09Okay,

01:15:10but you understand

01:15:11you're playing the victim

01:15:12when you punched a child,

01:15:14and that's just,

01:15:15the reason I'm saying

01:15:16all of this

01:15:17is because I think

01:15:17that you have a,

01:15:18I hope you have a conscience

01:15:19about this stuff,

01:15:20and I think you need

01:15:21to wrestle with the fact,

01:15:22look,

01:15:22I've done wrong,

01:15:23you've done wrong,

01:15:24and we need to sort of

01:15:25confront and wrestle with it,

01:15:26because your narrative

01:15:28minimizes the wrongs

01:15:29that you've done,

01:15:31and tends to portray

01:15:32yourself as the victim,

01:15:33and tends to portray

01:15:34other people as the aggressors,

01:15:35and,

01:15:36that's an understandable

01:15:38defense mechanism,

01:15:39right?

01:15:40Because it's kind of tough

01:15:41to just look at the wrongs

01:15:42we've done,

01:15:43and say,

01:15:44yep,

01:15:44that was me,

01:15:45I did that,

01:15:46and it's very tough

01:15:47to do that,

01:15:47especially when we're a child

01:15:48and we're subject

01:15:49to all these other kinds

01:15:50of pressures,

01:15:51and so on.

01:15:53So,

01:15:54I think one of the reasons

01:15:56that you may provoke

01:15:58negative responses

01:15:59from others

01:16:01is because the conversation

01:16:03is more about

01:16:05guarding

01:16:06an ego narrative

01:16:09rather than

01:16:10really dealing with,

01:16:11you know,

01:16:12sometimes the ugly truth,

01:16:13which we all have

01:16:14in our histories,

01:16:14and so on.

01:16:15And so,

01:16:17if you are treating me

01:16:18as if,

01:16:19like,

01:16:19if you confess and say,

01:16:21you know what,

01:16:21I feel really,

01:16:22really wretched

01:16:23about hurting

01:16:25my obese

01:16:27brothers,

01:16:27and yes,

01:16:28they hurt me too,

01:16:28and so on,

01:16:29but,

01:16:29you know,

01:16:30that's not the problem

01:16:31that I have.

01:16:31The problem is that

01:16:32the majority of the time

01:16:33I was hurting them,

01:16:34and I remember

01:16:35there was one time

01:16:36when I took,

01:16:37I think you said glee

01:16:38or something like that

01:16:40in hurting them

01:16:41and wanted to hurt them,

01:16:42and there's a cruelty in that,

01:16:44and it's kind of sad

01:16:45and appalling,

01:16:45and right,

01:16:46and if you'd have said

01:16:47all of that,

01:16:48I mean,

01:16:49to me,

01:16:49that would be very honorable

01:16:50and very honest

01:16:51and very brave

01:16:52and very direct,

01:16:54but instead,

01:16:55there's a lot of dancing around,

01:16:57and there's a lot

01:16:58of changing stories.

01:16:59I, you know,

01:17:00when you're challenged

01:17:00on things that are negative

01:17:02to you,

01:17:02you can't remember,

01:17:03but then you come up

01:17:04with all these

01:17:04very specific memories

01:17:05that are expulcatory,

01:17:07that make you look better

01:17:09and so on,

01:17:10and again,

01:17:10that's natural,

01:17:11like this is not

01:17:11any big criticism of you,

01:17:12this is kind of human nature,

01:17:14and so,

01:17:16because there's a kind

01:17:17of ego-serving manipulation

01:17:20in your narratives,

01:17:23it's frustrating,

01:17:24like,

01:17:25to just try and get

01:17:26a rough estimate

01:17:28of how often

01:17:29you got into physical fights

01:17:31with your brother

01:17:31took like 15 minutes,

01:17:33and most people,

01:17:35I mean,

01:17:35this is my job,

01:17:35right,

01:17:36so to speak,

01:17:36so,

01:17:36but most people

01:17:37won't bother,

01:17:38right,

01:17:39it's like,

01:17:39oh,

01:17:39forget this,

01:17:40too much work,

01:17:41I'm moving on,

01:17:42and so,

01:17:43I think

01:17:44that one of the reasons

01:17:45why you get

01:17:47negative responses

01:17:48from people

01:17:48is,

01:17:50I think that you have

01:17:51yet to really sit down

01:17:53and confront

01:17:54your bad conscience,

01:17:55and this is not to say

01:17:56you weren't a victim

01:17:57as a child,

01:17:57you absolutely were,

01:17:58and this is not to say

01:17:59that your parents

01:18:00weren't terrible parents,

01:18:01it sounds like they were,

01:18:02and I really sympathize

01:18:03with all of that,

01:18:05but you still were an adult

01:18:06punching a 15-year-old,

01:18:08and you can say,

01:18:09well,

01:18:09I had all of these excuses,

01:18:11but the problem is,

01:18:12of course,

01:18:13if you make those excuses,

01:18:15then what you're saying is,

01:18:16when I'm in a situation

01:18:17of frustration,

01:18:18or when I'm in a situation

01:18:19where I can't reason

01:18:20with someone,

01:18:21yeah,

01:18:22using violence is justified,

01:18:24but that means

01:18:24you have to stay

01:18:25distant from people.

01:18:27You know,

01:18:28if I say,

01:18:28every time I see a redhead,

01:18:30I'm going to punch them,

01:18:31I can't go to the

01:18:32redhead festival,

01:18:33or Ireland,

01:18:34or Scotland,

01:18:36or wherever the

01:18:36redheaded people are,

01:18:37or whatever,

01:18:37every time I see

01:18:38a redheaded person,

01:18:39I've got to run

01:18:40to the other side

01:18:41of the street

01:18:41and cover my eyes

01:18:42and put on my sunglasses

01:18:43to make them look like brunettes,

01:18:45or whatever it is, right?

01:18:46So,

01:18:46I think

01:18:48it's tough

01:18:49for you to have

01:18:50that direct connection

01:18:51with people

01:18:51because you're always

01:18:52concerned about

01:18:53how you're going

01:18:54to come across,

01:18:55about how you're

01:18:56going to appear,

01:18:56and so there's

01:18:58kind of a manipulative

01:18:59aspect to you,

01:19:00as there is to me,

01:19:01as there is to everyone.

01:19:01I mean,

01:19:02this is,

01:19:02we're back to

01:19:03sort of human nature

01:19:04as a whole,

01:19:05but I think that's

01:19:06where a lot of the

01:19:07isolation comes from,

01:19:08if that makes sense.

01:19:10The narrative,

01:19:11I think,

01:19:12makes sense.

01:19:14I'm not yet sure

01:19:15whether it fits or not.

01:19:17I'll have to have

01:19:17sucked on it more.

01:19:19Okay,

01:19:20well,

01:19:20that sounds like

01:19:21something you want

01:19:21to do on your own.

01:19:23Is there anything else

01:19:23I could chat about

01:19:24with you,

01:19:25or should we

01:19:25close it?

01:19:28I mean,

01:19:28because this is

01:19:29a control mechanism,

01:19:30this is a control mechanism

01:19:31wherein I try to give you

01:19:32some insights

01:19:33which you've come to me for,

01:19:34and you say,

01:19:35it doesn't fit,

01:19:35I need to think about it,

01:19:36which closes the conversation,

01:19:38right?

01:19:38Because I'm not just

01:19:38going to sit here

01:19:39on the phone

01:19:40while you think about it,

01:19:41if that makes sense.

01:19:42I understand.

01:19:46Do you think

01:19:47there's anything

01:19:50external

01:19:51that I should do?

01:19:54Well,

01:19:54hang on,

01:19:55hang on,

01:19:55but we can't just

01:19:56skate over the fact

01:19:57that you don't believe,

01:19:58which is fine.

01:19:59I mean,

01:19:59nobody has to accept

01:20:00anything that I say,

01:20:01obviously,

01:20:01right?

01:20:01I mean,

01:20:02it's totally voluntary,

01:20:04but I've had

01:20:05sort of an analysis,

01:20:06which is quite complicated

01:20:07around your conscience

01:20:08and about directness

01:20:09and about assuming

01:20:11that people are going

01:20:11to punish you

01:20:12for innocent mistakes,

01:20:13which puts them

01:20:14in the role of abuser,

01:20:15which alienates people

01:20:15from you.

01:20:16Like,

01:20:16there's a whole

01:20:17complicated ball of twine

01:20:18that I've just kind of

01:20:19given you

01:20:19that you've said

01:20:20that you need to take time,

01:20:22I assume,

01:20:22on your own

01:20:24to unravel.

01:20:25So,

01:20:25I think you should

01:20:26take the time

01:20:26to unravel that

01:20:28because if I'm

01:20:29completely wrong,

01:20:30then me telling you

01:20:30what you should do

01:20:31practically

01:20:32doesn't make any sense.

01:20:32That's right.

01:20:34Agreed.

01:20:35But,

01:20:35if you're correct,

01:20:37then...

01:20:37No, no, no.

01:20:38I can't do that.

01:20:39I can't go

01:20:39if I'm correct

01:20:41because you need to

01:20:43sit with it,

01:20:43as you say,

01:20:44and puzzle it out

01:20:45and figure out

01:20:46whether it fits

01:20:46or sits well

01:20:47with you.

01:20:47Sorry, sorry.

01:20:48Still talking.

01:20:49Still talking.

01:20:50So,

01:20:51yeah,

01:20:51so I can't just

01:20:52sort of go

01:20:52if I'm correct

01:20:53because you need to...

01:20:54I don't want to waste time

01:20:55because if I'm not correct,

01:20:56then all advice I give

01:20:58from here on in

01:20:59is not only not beneficial

01:21:00to you,

01:21:00but it's not beneficial

01:21:01to anyone who listens.

01:21:02In fact,

01:21:02it could be harmful,

01:21:03right?

01:21:04So,

01:21:04no,

01:21:05you need to figure out

01:21:06what's correct

01:21:07and you're certainly

01:21:07welcome to do that.

01:21:09I understand

01:21:11and there may not be

01:21:12anything that fits

01:21:13this category

01:21:13that I'm asking about,

01:21:16but besides

01:21:17internal reflection

01:21:18on this,

01:21:19is there something

01:21:20external

01:21:21that would be beneficial?

01:21:23So,

01:21:23I know,

01:21:24of course,

01:21:24you recommend

01:21:26shock therapy.

01:21:28Well,

01:21:29yes,

01:21:30sorry to interrupt,

01:21:30but you've been listening

01:21:31to me for five years

01:21:32and I assume

01:21:32you haven't done it,

01:21:33so that recommendation

01:21:34doesn't mean much to you,

01:21:36which again,

01:21:36is totally fine.

01:21:37For reasons we,

01:21:40I don't think

01:21:40would be a good use

01:21:41of time to get into,

01:21:42I'm more able

01:21:44in the future

01:21:45to go to shock therapy

01:21:47than I was

01:21:48over the last five years

01:21:50and...

01:21:51You mean for reasons

01:21:52of cost?

01:21:54Sort of cost

01:21:56and time,

01:21:57things like that,

01:21:58yes.

01:21:58Well,

01:21:58no,

01:21:59no,

01:21:59you've already told me

01:21:59that you have time

01:22:00and I'm going to go out

01:22:02on a limb here

01:22:03and assume that when you...

01:22:04Hang on,

01:22:05hang on,

01:22:05you already said,

01:22:06you said earlier

01:22:06that you have time

01:22:08and also,

01:22:09if you're giving people...

01:22:10but I don't know

01:22:11what you're saying.

01:22:12If you're giving people

01:22:13lots of financial advice,

01:22:14I assume that you have

01:22:15some decent finances.

01:22:17I don't know

01:22:18what you mean by time.

01:22:19When did I say

01:22:20I had time?

01:22:22Oh,

01:22:22earlier when we were

01:22:23talking about your life.

01:22:24You said earlier,

01:22:25it doesn't matter.

01:22:25I mean,

01:22:26but,

01:22:26you know,

01:22:27you don't have a wife,

01:22:28you don't have a girlfriend,

01:22:29you don't have kids,

01:22:30you don't have much

01:22:31of a social life.

01:22:32You say you go to work,

01:22:33you listen to your podcast,

01:22:34you go home,

01:22:34so you have time,

01:22:36right?

01:22:37Okay,

01:22:38I see what you mean.

01:22:41And you have money

01:22:42because you're giving people

01:22:43financial advice.

01:22:44See,

01:22:44this is why

01:22:45communication with you

01:22:46tends to be quite confusing.

01:22:48Is you say,

01:22:48well,

01:22:49I haven't done therapy.

01:22:49basically because I don't

01:22:51have time or money

01:22:51or something like that

01:22:52and you've already told me

01:22:53that you have time

01:22:54and you've already told me

01:22:55based,

01:22:56I mean,

01:22:56which is an inference

01:22:57that if you're giving people

01:22:5840 hours or 20 hours

01:23:00of financial advice

01:23:01that they're coming to you

01:23:02because you have

01:23:02some financial success,

01:23:03right?

01:23:04At the moment,

01:23:06I'm working 60 hours

01:23:07per week

01:23:08and I don't have

01:23:11spare change

01:23:11on a month-to-month basis.

01:23:14So why are people

01:23:16coming to you

01:23:16for financial advice

01:23:17if you're working

01:23:18time and a half

01:23:19and you're,

01:23:19hang on,

01:23:20hang on,

01:23:21why are people

01:23:21coming to you

01:23:22for financial advice

01:23:23and why are you

01:23:24giving financial advice

01:23:26if you're working

01:23:27time and a half

01:23:28and you're broke?

01:23:29Well,

01:23:29my money's tied up

01:23:30in real estate deals

01:23:31at the moment.

01:23:33Okay,

01:23:33so that's fine.

01:23:34So you chose

01:23:34to invest in real,

01:23:35hang on,

01:23:36you chose to invest

01:23:37in real estate

01:23:38rather than go to therapy.

01:23:39But that's not

01:23:39because you can't

01:23:40go to therapy,

01:23:40it's because you chose

01:23:41to invest in real estate

01:23:42which is fine.

01:23:44So next month

01:23:45I get another unit lease,

01:23:46I should have free cash

01:23:48for a month-to-month

01:23:50so I would be

01:23:50in a position

01:23:51to pursue therapy

01:23:53potentially.

01:23:55All right,

01:23:55but yeah,

01:23:55it's not because

01:23:57you couldn't,

01:23:57it's because you made choices.

01:23:59Yes.

01:24:00Okay,

01:24:00that's all I'm saying.

01:24:01So I'm saying that

01:24:02I think therapy

01:24:04is a high priority

01:24:05and you chose

01:24:05to invest in real estate

01:24:07and all of that

01:24:08which is,

01:24:08again,

01:24:08it's fine

01:24:09but I just don't want

01:24:10people to get

01:24:10the impression

01:24:11that you couldn't

01:24:12have taken my advice

01:24:13you chose not to

01:24:14which is,

01:24:14again,

01:24:14it's fine.

01:24:15I mean,

01:24:15nobody has to take

01:24:16my advice of course

01:24:17but all right,

01:24:19is there anything else

01:24:20I can help you with

01:24:21that's brief?

01:24:22Outside of therapy,

01:24:24is there something

01:24:25that would be useful

01:24:27for me to do?

01:24:28I don't know

01:24:29whether join a

01:24:31social skills

01:24:32for adults class

01:24:33or I don't know what.

01:24:35Yeah,

01:24:35I can't give you advice

01:24:36because I don't know

01:24:37if the advice

01:24:38I've already given you

01:24:39applies or not

01:24:39so you have to

01:24:41figure out

01:24:41whether that applies

01:24:42and maybe we could

01:24:43talk again about that.

01:24:45All right.

01:24:46So if in a week

01:24:47I realize you're

01:24:48100% right,

01:24:49is there something

01:24:50I should do

01:24:50in that case?

01:24:52I couldn't tell you

01:24:53because I don't know

01:24:54what aspects of it

01:24:55would be right,

01:24:55how much of it

01:24:56is right and so on.

01:24:57I mean,

01:24:58it's like you come to me

01:24:59with a knee problem,

01:25:00I give you a solution,

01:25:01you don't know

01:25:01if it's right

01:25:02and then you say

01:25:02what kind of sport

01:25:03should I play?

01:25:04It's like,

01:25:04I don't know,

01:25:04I don't know how well

01:25:05the healing is going to go,

01:25:06I don't know

01:25:06whether I'm correct

01:25:07or not

01:25:07or how much I'm correct

01:25:08or how much work

01:25:09you're going to do on it

01:25:10so I can't answer that.

01:25:12But you would say

01:25:14that talk therapy

01:25:15would be good?

01:25:17I'm a big fan

01:25:17of talk therapy,

01:25:18it does seem to have

01:25:20the best increase

01:25:22in overall happiness

01:25:24for people

01:25:25of just about anything

01:25:26you can invest in.

01:25:26If you get a good therapist

01:25:27and I've got a whole podcast,

01:25:29I think it's 1927,

01:25:31How to Find a Great Therapist,

01:25:32you can just go to

01:25:33fdrpodcast.com

01:25:35and just do a search

01:25:36for therapist

01:25:36and you can find it.

01:25:38I believe I have listened

01:25:40to that episode.

01:25:41Oh, fantastic.

01:25:42I will.

01:25:43All right,

01:25:44I really appreciate

01:25:45your time today

01:25:46and have yourself

01:25:47a good,

01:25:48good afternoon.

01:25:49It was a very interesting chat

01:25:50and I wish you the best.

01:25:51All right,

01:25:52thank you.

01:25:52Bye-bye.

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