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00:00:01This conversation between Johnny Vandermeer and Walter Langford is being taped in Johnny's backyard on January 10th, 1985.
00:00:17Okay, John, that name has to mean Dutch ancestry, hmm?
00:00:24Yeah, my parents are from the island of Friesland, in Holland.
00:00:29Oh, really?
00:00:30But you were born in New Jersey.
00:00:33I was born in Boston Park, New Jersey, and raised in Midland Park.
00:00:38How did you get your start in baseball?
00:00:42Well, I was playing semi-pro ball in northern New Jersey.
00:00:47Mm-hmm.
00:00:48And doing the equestrian area.
00:00:51Mm-hmm.
00:00:54And that's where I basically got scouts from.
00:00:58Mm-hmm.
00:00:58Where did you go first, in the minors?
00:01:01I was picked up by the Dodgers and signed by the Dodgers and taken spring training by the Dodgers.
00:01:08And some to Dayton, Ohio.
00:01:10Mm-hmm.
00:01:12How did your educator hold everything?
00:01:14Well, I was on a cover-up deal while I was in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
00:01:25And I would go before Judge Landis.
00:01:28And Landis awarded me to the Scranton Ball Club, and I had to play there for another year.
00:01:33And I was picked up there by Boston.
00:01:39Hmm.
00:01:40Red Sox or Braves?
00:01:41The Braves.
00:01:42Mm-hmm.
00:01:43In the fall of 35, and traded that winter for a bunch of wildfires at Nashville, Tennessee,
00:01:55which was on a farm for the Reds.
00:01:59Mm-hmm.
00:02:01Nashville optioned me to Durham, where Frank Lane was the business manager.
00:02:07Near Kitty.
00:02:08Right.
00:02:08And with a woods farm.
00:02:10And from there, why I was bought by the woods.
00:02:14Mm-hmm.
00:02:16All right.
00:02:17Came up in 37.
00:02:19That's right.
00:02:21Do you remember your first game?
00:02:25Yeah, I, uh, my first ball game was rather, uh, uh, a ball game was play in Cincinnati.
00:02:35So I could beat my last game by 0-1, 3-2, but Maxie West got the 0-1 off
00:02:40in the 9-20.
00:02:41Oh, boy.
00:02:42Did you start that game or did you come in?
00:02:43I started.
00:02:44Yeah.
00:02:45So how was your first game and your first start?
00:02:47Beat me 3-2, I think.
00:02:49Tough way to lose the first one.
00:02:51Golly.
00:02:52Um, you were, uh, that year you had two managers.
00:02:57Uh, I, uh, I, uh, I, uh, I stayed there until, uh, after the All-Star game.
00:03:06Oh, right.
00:03:06Drops into Syracuse.
00:03:07Mm-hmm.
00:03:08And then we'd call off the dresser was blood blow.
00:03:12Mm-hmm.
00:03:13There were a lot of good ball players on that last year.
00:03:18Stacey and Kyler and Lombardi.
00:03:21Well, Lombardi, that's right.
00:03:23Well, I hope he was finishing up.
00:03:25Yeah, he was finishing.
00:03:26And, uh...
00:03:28Palahun was there and he was torn down.
00:03:31I thought it was, uh...
00:03:32Did you?
00:03:32Yeah.
00:03:34But, uh, Derringer was, uh, just, uh, coming into his best, I think, about that time.
00:03:39I think Derringer lost 27 games.
00:03:42He lost that many one.
00:03:43Yeah, wait a minute.
00:03:44I'll tell ya.
00:03:45About a ride here.
00:03:46I just can't see Derringer losing 27 games.
00:03:49Well, the year he lost 27 was 33.
00:03:5233?
00:03:53Yeah.
00:03:54In 37, he was 10 and 14.
00:03:59Yeah.
00:03:59Well, anyway, hard to picture Derringer losing 27 games any time.
00:04:04That's right.
00:04:06Well, then, in 38, you, uh, rounded into a real good form and, uh, not only had 15-10, um,
00:04:19season record, but set that unique business of the two no-hitters.
00:04:26Well, I could have had a hell of a better year than 15-10.
00:04:29I had the land in the hospital for a month.
00:04:31Uh-huh.
00:04:32With what?
00:04:33I had, uh, seven barrels in one ear and six in the other.
00:04:38Inside.
00:04:39Good grief.
00:04:40And, uh, I was out for a month and lost about, uh, 15 pounds in that period of time.
00:04:45How do you treat more out of there inside?
00:04:47Well, I wasn't, uh, didn't know much about them then.
00:04:51And all I could do is just put heat lamps on me.
00:04:54Today, why, uh, they have, uh, any biotics, but they don't have any biotics.
00:04:59That's right.
00:05:02All right.
00:05:03Um, you had Bill McKechnie as manager that year.
00:05:07Uh, Bill came to us in, uh, 38.
00:05:11Yeah.
00:05:12That's the one.
00:05:13He was a great, he was, he was a great better.
00:05:15Oh, everybody tells me that, yeah.
00:05:16One of the, I don't think the, one of the, one of the, I guess I'd have to put my
00:05:20car
00:05:20through the military and McKechnie.
00:05:23Yeah.
00:05:25Glenn Wright talked to McKechnie about him being a great manager when he hit him with
00:05:29Pittsburgh and, uh, others, uh, likewise.
00:05:33And any guy that can win with three different teams in three different cities, he,
00:05:38Well, he was an outstanding defensive manager.
00:05:42Yeah.
00:05:42He wasn't much of a, uh, offensive manager, because he never had a club that, uh, couldn't
00:05:48be an offensive club then.
00:05:50So you couldn't value it.
00:05:51He wasn't an offensive manager, but he sure was a great defensive manager.
00:05:55Uh, and that season, before we get around to talking about those no-hitters, uh, Frank
00:06:00McCormick was coming along.
00:06:04Frank McCormick played with me and Durham.
00:06:06He really?
00:06:07We both played together, and he had 400 down there that year.
00:06:11And I had, uh, I got the minor league guy with Harrowood.
00:06:14I like that one.
00:06:16And you had, uh, Lonnie Frye, and, uh, Frye came to us, uh, with one McKechnie came.
00:06:23Uh, McKechnie got him.
00:06:24Uh, McKechnie got him.
00:06:25McKechnie got him, and Bill Wilber and Kenneth.
00:06:28Yeah.
00:06:28And Wally Berger, if I had changed our club, and, of course, Bucky Walers joined us.
00:06:34Yeah, that's right.
00:06:35And now we're my second no-hitter.
00:06:37Uh, was that when you joined the team?
00:06:38That was the deadline, June 15th.
00:06:40Yeah.
00:06:40Yeah.
00:06:41Yeah.
00:06:43All right.
00:06:43Now, what were your, uh, main pitches?
00:06:49What did you rely on that year?
00:06:51Well, I was a hard thrower.
00:06:53I was a power pitcher, and I would have a good curveball.
00:06:56Mm-hmm.
00:06:59There weren't as many, uh, other pitches in those days as I recall.
00:07:05Very few.
00:07:05Well, there were some screwball pitchers, like Carl Evel.
00:07:09Yeah, he was a well at that time.
00:07:10Yeah.
00:07:10He's a pretty good one.
00:07:11Uh-huh.
00:07:12I would have to say so.
00:07:15Um, now, come to June 11th,
00:07:22was that a night game in Crosler Field?
00:07:24No, that was a Saturday afternoon.
00:07:26That was a day game.
00:07:27Yeah.
00:07:28And you shut out the Braves 3-0 and gave no hits.
00:07:32How about, um, walks, hit batters, errors?
00:07:36Did they get many base runners, in other words?
00:07:38I didn't have an error in either ballgame.
00:07:40I don't think.
00:07:41No.
00:07:42Uh, I think there was only about, I could be corrected on this,
00:07:46but I think there was only about five fly balls in that ballgame.
00:07:50The rust cricket had a pretty good sinker that day.
00:07:53Mm-hmm.
00:07:54I wasn't real quick.
00:07:55I didn't have my real good stuff.
00:07:56It was one of my few days, I guess, I had control.
00:08:13Mm-hmm.
00:08:20Yeah.
00:08:21And, uh, a little philosophy about the ninth inning.
00:08:25Uh, I used to like to finish anything I started.
00:08:29Mm-hmm.
00:08:29And I'd get to the ninth inning and I'd always say, uh,
00:08:33you've got 20 good pitches left.
00:08:36Pretty good.
00:08:37And, uh, I'd start with one, I mean, 20 and 19.
00:08:42You can tell myself I'm late, late on this.
00:08:44Yeah.
00:08:44And that's where I picked it up.
00:08:46Yeah.
00:08:47And, uh, so that gave me a little bit of incentive in the last inning
00:08:51that I pushed myself a little bit.
00:08:54Mm-hmm.
00:08:56Now, the, uh, run four days later on the 15th was a night game.
00:09:00As I understand, the first night game at Ebbets Field.
00:09:04That's right.
00:09:05Yeah.
00:09:05And that was, uh, six to, uh, nothing.
00:09:09Any, uh, close calls on somebody getting hit against you that game?
00:09:14Well, the only close call there was, I would say, in both ballgames,
00:09:19was Buddy Hassett.
00:09:20Uh-huh.
00:09:21Hit a line drive back to the box.
00:09:23But I knocked down and I had a kind of scurry a little bit to, uh,
00:09:29uh, pick it up and, uh, throw him out.
00:09:31Okay.
00:09:31That was about, probably the toughest, uh, ball handed in either one
00:09:36of the two ball games.
00:09:38Great.
00:09:39Now, do I remember right that in your next start you went long for three
00:09:44innings or better before, uh, was it Debs Garms got a single off of you?
00:09:51Uh, three and two third innings.
00:09:53Uh-huh.
00:09:54And, uh, staying I had gone to coach first base that inning instead of third base,
00:09:59which he normally did.
00:10:02And, uh, knowing Casey why, always doing something, why, he cut across the infield
00:10:08that inning as I was going to the mound, walked in front of me and said,
00:10:13John, uh, I was saying I moved Casey because I had been spring training with the Dodgers.
00:10:18Uh-huh.
00:10:18He was a coach there.
00:10:20And he walked across and he said, John, he said, we're not trying to beat you.
00:10:24He said, we're just trying to get a base head off of you.
00:10:26Uh-huh.
00:10:27Uh, that was Casey's way of, uh, doing things and saying things and why he was a great individual.
00:10:33He really was.
00:10:34They all tell me that.
00:10:35Now, let's go back and...
00:10:38Well, incidentally, if I may add this, the game prior to my first no-hitter...
00:10:44That's where I was going back to.
00:10:46I had a three-hitter.
00:10:48I gave up two hits in the first inning to the Giants and shot him out.
00:10:55And then the ninth inning, Hank Lieber, came up, pinched it.
00:10:59I hit him on a fist and one fell just behind Lonnie Frye in second base for a base hit.
00:11:05So instead of having...
00:11:07I had 21 two-third innings.
00:11:10Uh-huh.
00:11:10If I went for the crappy hit of the ounce, I would have had over three volumes.
00:11:16That's right.
00:11:17Close to 30.
00:11:18Uh-huh.
00:11:20Well, I don't know what the record is right now, but, uh, isn't 21 and two-thirds probably
00:11:24the record?
00:11:26Unsuccessful as well.
00:11:27Successful as well.
00:11:27I think, uh, Cy Young has, uh, the record, you know, 23.
00:11:34Uh, but however, uh, uh, there was, uh,
00:11:40four or five relief appearances involved in it.
00:11:45He didn't pitch all of it.
00:11:47That's right.
00:11:47He went all his.
00:11:49Well, Harvey Haddix had twelve innings before he lost a tough one in the thirteenth,
00:11:56but I don't...
00:11:57I've never read of his having any, uh, span of hit this innings before and after that
00:12:03and come close to yours.
00:12:06Uh-huh.
00:12:06Well, you know, there are about, uh, six or eight records that still exist in the majors,
00:12:14that, uh, still exist or recently have been set, that, uh, it's kind of doubtful they'll
00:12:19be broken and, uh, yours is one of them.
00:12:23Uh-huh.
00:12:24Well, you've got DiMaggio.
00:12:26DiMaggio's 56 games.
00:12:28You've got Hornsby's four or five, four times 400.
00:12:33Yeah.
00:12:34And, uh...
00:12:34Somebody does that the way they'll own the, they'll own the franchise.
00:12:45Uh-huh.
00:12:47Then there is, uh, um, I doubt that anybody's gonna break Hank Aaron's, uh, 754 home runs
00:12:58now.
00:12:59But they can't say for sure about it.
00:13:01Well, that's possible to step that ball up.
00:13:04Well, that's true, too.
00:13:07Uh...
00:13:08DiMaggio's, uh, consecutive.
00:13:10That's awfully hard to imagine.
00:13:12That's gotta be tough.
00:13:14Another one that I don't think will ever be broken is Lou Gehrig's 2,130 consecutive
00:13:19games.
00:13:20No, I don't think so.
00:13:22Uh, and I, uh, I'd have to be convinced that somebody's gonna break Hank Wilson's 190
00:13:28RBIs in one season.
00:13:30That's right.
00:13:31Well, uh, I would call that one, though.
00:13:33Yeah.
00:13:341930.
00:13:35And, uh, most unlikely that anyone, whatever breaks I Young's 513 wins, even though some
00:13:42of them were before the modern, so-called modern period.
00:13:46Uh, I don't know.
00:13:47That record would be broken up.
00:13:49It was a pitching record.
00:13:50Yeah.
00:13:51And it's doubtful, I believe, that anybody break Walter Johnson's 113 career shutouts.
00:13:58I doubt that also.
00:14:01Then I've got, uh, Grover Alexander had a single season record of 16 shutouts in one year.
00:14:13Uh-huh.
00:14:15Uh-huh.
00:14:18And another one that I believe is absolutely safe is Joe Sewell's record of only four strikeouts
00:14:24in 155 games every inning of every game in 1925.
00:14:29Uh-huh.
00:14:30Yeah.
00:14:31And he went also 115 consecutive games without striking out in 1929.
00:14:38So you went right there with the, uh, the, uh, solid records that, I think, baseball can offer.
00:14:49Well, our records are made to be broken.
00:14:51Well, that's right.
00:14:52I, I look at my record as, uh, as you'd be broken because I don't think anybody's going
00:14:59to pitch three games in a row, and I don't think anybody's going to, perhaps, go beyond,
00:15:07uh, putting two-thirds in and beyond that to tie the, the second record.
00:15:11Uh-huh.
00:15:13All right.
00:15:14Now, I'm, uh, interested in this.
00:15:19Uh, in 1939 and 40, you suddenly dipped down to five and nine in 39 and three and one in,
00:15:28uh, and 40, or one and three, rather.
00:15:33No?
00:15:33No.
00:15:34Three and one.
00:15:35You're on.
00:15:35Um, you've got a sore arm?
00:15:39Uh-huh.
00:15:40I pulled my arm, and, uh, uh, just before 4th of July in 1939 in Pittsburgh on a wet field.
00:15:51The game was held up.
00:15:53Uh-huh.
00:15:54Uh, it started, uh, the ending after the rain, and my front foot slipped, and I tore my
00:16:01back up.
00:16:03Uh-huh.
00:16:04Uh, I did not tear, I was very fortunate I didn't tear up a, a throwing muscle, a power
00:16:11muscle, so to speak.
00:16:13That would probably be the correct term.
00:16:15I, I tore up a follow-through muscle.
00:16:20And, uh, I could, I could probably pitch with about two and a half weeks' rest.
00:16:26Uh-huh.
00:16:27Uh, that follow-through muscle would then relax.
00:16:31Yeah.
00:16:32If I threw too much, that follow-through muscle would grow, back up again.
00:16:38So I was very fortunate in the fact that, uh, uh, it was, uh, a follow-through muscle and
00:16:45a power muscle.
00:16:47And they would pitch for years afterwards.
00:16:48That's why I went to Indianapolis.
00:16:50Uh-huh.
00:16:50Uh-huh.
00:16:50It was known, uh, uh, in the media that, uh, I went over there because I was wild.
00:16:57That was, uh, not the reason because I had a couple options left on me.
00:17:01Uh-huh.
00:17:02Uh-huh.
00:17:02In fact, I could have been optional to the big reason when I left.
00:17:05Uh-huh.
00:17:06Uh-huh.
00:17:07And, uh, they, uh, they just was kind of ussed up and said that, uh, I had to go back
00:17:15to
00:17:15Indianapolis to, my position was, I'd done it with Bachman, Philadelphia, and he loosened
00:17:20it up.
00:17:21And my position was I had to go to Indianapolis and I had to pitch.
00:17:25And we were trying to win a pennant.
00:17:28Uh-huh.
00:17:28Uh-huh.
00:17:29One game ahead, so, speak every day.
00:17:32And it wasn't time for, to mess with me.
00:17:34Uh-huh.
00:17:35Uh, so I went over there and got my arms straightened out.
00:17:39And had a pretty good, uh, year at Indianapolis.
00:17:41Uh, uh, a couple, couple, two months at Indianapolis.
00:17:44In fact, I threw a run hitter over there and got beat by no hitter by a freak one over
00:17:48there.
00:17:48You're kidding.
00:17:50Yeah, left-hand hitter hit the third base bag.
00:17:53Sure.
00:17:53And I bounced up in the air for a base hit.
00:17:55Uh-huh.
00:17:55Uh-huh.
00:17:56But, uh, I went over there basically because of, uh, my shoulder.
00:18:01Yeah.
00:18:02A lot of people in baseball know that, but the media was a little bit.
00:18:05Excuse me.
00:18:06Well, those were two, uh, unfortunate years for you to be, uh, laid up, sort of, because
00:18:12they were pennant years.
00:18:14Well, I came back to be eligible for the series.
00:18:18Uh-huh.
00:18:18And that's when I won my three ball games.
00:18:21At the end.
00:18:21In fact, I won the game that, uh, won the pennant in Philadelphia and had to go 13 innings
00:18:29to win it.
00:18:30Uh-huh.
00:18:30I beat the ULK.
00:18:33Yeah.
00:18:33I hit a double and tied up on a fly ball and came in on a squeeze play in the
00:18:3913th inning.
00:18:40My God.
00:18:41And then McKechnie took me out and Joe Banks finished the ball game.
00:18:44Yeah.
00:18:44But, uh, that was one of the highlights of my career.
00:18:48It has to be.
00:18:48Because I won 13 innings.
00:18:50I went just as strong at 13 as I did in the first.
00:18:54Uh-huh.
00:18:54And at that point I knew that my shoulder was fully restored and that meant as much to
00:18:59me as the World Series.
00:19:01Well, you were ready to go again.
00:19:02I won the thrills of my life.
00:19:03But you didn't get into the series.
00:19:06I was supposed to start the third game of the series in Detroit, first in Detroit.
00:19:13And I was all set to pitch the ball game until about 20 minutes before the game and McKechnie
00:19:18switched over to Whitey Moore.
00:19:21I wondered about that.
00:19:23I was just looking at the World Series history there.
00:19:25And, uh, I went in and got Whitey Moore in the first inning.
00:19:28Uh-huh.
00:19:29With the bases four.
00:19:31Nobody out.
00:19:33I got out of the mess.
00:19:35And, uh, I think we got, they got, uh, oh, they had, uh, three runs in.
00:19:42Uh-huh.
00:19:43And I think we got beat three to two and I went out in the seventh.
00:19:48So, uh, it was just one of those switches.
00:19:52That was too bad.
00:19:54All right.
00:19:55Now, you had a good year in 41, 16-13, with, uh,
00:20:02uh, the team finished third, though.
00:20:05You had six shutouts.
00:20:07Uh, another thing that, uh, interests me is, uh, I made a study some years ago, a couple
00:20:12of years ago, on the ratio of shutouts to, uh, the total wins in the majors, and, uh, uh,
00:20:20uh, really mighty few of them over 20 percent.
00:20:22Yours is better than 25 percent.
00:20:24Uh, he had about 30-some shutouts.
00:20:27He had about 30-some shutouts.
00:20:2730 shutouts and 119 wins from Book 7.
00:20:31Uh, Larry French had, uh, just about the same thing.
00:20:36He had 40 and 197, which figures out that just over 20 percent.
00:20:40Uh-huh.
00:20:41And some of those great names, like Johnson and Alexander and a few others, and, uh,
00:20:48Koufax, but now we'll get up to the upper 20s, but 25% is a mighty good ratio.
00:20:58After the two years of the Reds, our ball club went down.
00:21:04I was never on a good ball club again.
00:21:06Actually, I never pitched on a real good ball club.
00:21:09The two years that the Reds won a pennant, there's not very much said about this, but I still think
00:21:17it's a record.
00:21:18We won 51 ballgames by one run, or 52, and come back at 49 in the 40 by one run.
00:21:30And we never, we never, we were a one-run ball club, and as Joe Blake said in the first
00:21:39inning,
00:21:39you get to one run, he says, buddy, there's your lead, go forward.
00:21:45But we never did come up with that, we liked that extra hitter.
00:21:49We liked one good hitter from winning ballgames by two and three.
00:21:53Yeah.
00:21:57Elmer Riddle had quite a season in 41, 19 and 4, and then was a real flop the next day,
00:22:05next year.
00:22:05Had a sore arm from a slider.
00:22:07Ah.
00:22:08And then came back.
00:22:09Came back again and had another good season after.
00:22:11And got another sore arm for a slider.
00:22:14And that did him in.
00:22:15And that, he went to Pittsburgh, but Elmer was hitting that corner there for two years,
00:22:20but that slider went, and he needed that slider to win in a big league.
00:22:24He couldn't win without a slider.
00:22:26Didn't have a good fastball.
00:22:27He didn't have a, but he had outstanding control of the slider.
00:22:32All right.
00:22:36What'd you do, you went into World War II, 44 and 45.
00:22:40Went in the Navy.
00:22:42Yeah.
00:22:42Where'd you go?
00:22:43What'd you do?
00:22:44I went to Samson, New York, and wanted to go to Great Lakes, but they stopped that stuff.
00:22:50Everybody going to Great Lakes.
00:22:51So I ended up in Samson.
00:22:52I was the first great, you know, a better ball player that went in the service of how to
00:22:56go to Samson.
00:22:57I was assigned to Samson.
00:22:59I was working for the government at the time, and I seemed to come over the wires and
00:23:04work in New Jersey.
00:23:05Yeah.
00:23:07And so I went to Samson.
00:23:09I managed to work up in Samson Naval Training Center.
00:23:11Good.
00:23:12And booked all the games and brought big league clubs in there, which had never been brought
00:23:16in there before.
00:23:17Yeah.
00:23:19And then I went to Honolulu and played in the Army-Navy World Series.
00:23:28And after that series was over, we went on a tour to Pacific for about a month, and then
00:23:38they spread us all up, and then the last year and a half, we were stationed all over the
00:23:43Pacific, and I stayed at Guam.
00:23:46Mm-hmm.
00:23:49Great Lakes had quite a team in those years.
00:23:54Yeah, we played exhibition games.
00:23:56We didn't go up there and play exhibition games.
00:23:57Later on, when I went to Samson, we'd get all the big clubs to come to Samson.
00:24:02Yeah.
00:24:02Yeah.
00:24:03I was teaching at Notre Dame in those years.
00:24:06I taught at Notre Dame for 43 years.
00:24:10And the Great Lakes team came to Notre Dame and played the college team there.
00:24:14And Johnny Mize was on first base, and I forget who else.
00:24:17But there were a lot of names there.
00:24:22Well, we played very little.
00:24:23Once we got in the Pacific, down below, we played very little ball.
00:24:28We played Sunday afternoons.
00:24:30We got together.
00:24:31We played in dungarees and underwear, heavy shirts to sweat.
00:24:38And we played anybody around the place.
00:24:41We didn't care who they were.
00:24:42Maybe a team off of a ship.
00:24:44Yeah.
00:24:45But we wanted to.
00:24:46We knew we had to play.
00:24:48Yeah.
00:24:49So we did this year-round, and Sunday afternoon, we'd basically play at base hospitals.
00:24:55Mm-hmm.
00:24:58Then in 46, the Reds finished sixth, and Ewell Blackwell showed up.
00:25:07Blackwell was the greatest right-handed pitcher I ever saw.
00:25:12You're kidding.
00:25:12No, I'm not kidding.
00:25:14You asked any right-handed pitcher that played against Ewell Blackwell, and they wanted no part of it.
00:25:22He had that quick motion, huh?
00:25:23He had motion.
00:25:24He looked one way and threw another way.
00:25:29He had fantastic stuff.
00:25:31He was pretty tall, wasn't he?
00:25:32He was 6'6".
00:25:33He was 6'6".
00:25:33He cross-fired.
00:25:35Yeah, yeah.
00:25:36And that's what caught up with Blackie.
00:25:38All right.
00:25:39Blackie did too much cross-firing and threw against his body.
00:25:43Yeah.
00:25:44He didn't have to do this, but he delighted in doing it.
00:25:47Yeah.
00:25:47And he wasn't a bull.
00:25:49Yeah.
00:25:50He was a long, tall-finger.
00:25:53But I'll say this.
00:25:54The Ewell Blackwell could have pitched for 10 or 12 or 14 years.
00:26:01There have been some records in the book.
00:26:04I've never seen a right-hand hitter that wanted him up against Ewell Blackwell.
00:26:09I never saw one guy hit him.
00:26:11His name was Bama Rao.
00:26:13Yeah.
00:26:14A left-hand hitter.
00:26:17You played at, according to this, at 190 pounds.
00:26:21You were a 6' what?
00:26:24I was 6'1".
00:26:256'1", 190 pounds.
00:26:28That's pretty solid there.
00:26:29Yeah.
00:26:30I held my weight well.
00:26:32I'd drop to 185 pounds over at a time, going spring training at 185, and put on weight.
00:26:41Mm-hmm.
00:26:42I stayed away from going in over and getting down.
00:26:45I thought that was the hard way.
00:26:47That's right.
00:26:48So I starved myself in January and February.
00:26:52Came in 5 pounds under.
00:26:54Real good.
00:26:54And I could go to work.
00:26:56All right.
00:26:58Now, in 1947, you still have the Reds, and Johnny Mune came in as manager.
00:27:05That's right.
00:27:06The team finished fifth.
00:27:09And in 1948, you had a pretty good year, 17-14, and the team was seventh.
00:27:17And by the end of the year, Bucky Walters replaced Nune.
00:27:21That's right.
00:27:23You had Kliciski, Sauer.
00:27:29Sauer?
00:27:30Sauer didn't do very much with us.
00:27:32No.
00:27:32He...
00:27:32He couldn't get...
00:27:33He played for us at Syracuse.
00:27:35He's out of our farm system.
00:27:36Yeah.
00:27:37He had a fantastic year at Syracuse, but he couldn't get going with us, and we traded him
00:27:42to the Cubs, and he'd come chilling again.
00:27:43He had some good seasons with the Cubs.
00:27:46And he had some good years in the Cubs.
00:27:47Well, Kliciski was a pretty solid player for you for several years there.
00:27:52Well, when Ted came up, he was not a good ball player.
00:27:57I'm not surprised to hear.
00:27:59He was a big fellow.
00:28:01Yeah.
00:28:01And he couldn't pull the ball.
00:28:03Mmm.
00:28:03Imagine that.
00:28:04And he was a left field hitter, and he worked at it.
00:28:08I only saw him in his last years, and he was a pull hitter then.
00:28:13He got the pull.
00:28:14But when Ted came up, he was a left center field hitter.
00:28:18Hmm.
00:28:18And he didn't have the power, which he would naturally have when he went to right field.
00:28:22And after about three years later, Ted became a good hitter, although he a little bit desired
00:28:28to be at the field.
00:28:30Oh, yeah.
00:28:31Particularly when he came up.
00:28:32Yeah.
00:28:34Well, I bet you can tell me about your only home run in the majors, which was in 48.
00:28:40Well, there's a little story to that.
00:28:43Uh, Bucky Wallers and I were very close.
00:28:46Uh-huh.
00:28:47He was a great hitter.
00:28:48He sure was.
00:28:49Yeah, I saw him win 27.
00:28:51He probably won about 17 with his own butt.
00:28:54True.
00:28:54I wouldn't pitch to Wallers in the jam when he was hot.
00:28:57Uh-huh.
00:28:57I'd pitch to Fry, but not to Wallers.
00:28:59Yeah.
00:29:00But anyway, he said, if I was a base runner, I did all the pinch running all of my career.
00:29:08Is that right?
00:29:09And he said, well, you may, uh, I've become the manager.
00:29:12He said, you may run for me.
00:29:14He says, but you'll never hit for me.
00:29:16I said, if you ever hit a home run, he says, I'll leave the ballpark for him.
00:29:19I hit one over the scoreboard.
00:29:21I said something like that.
00:29:21Gee, it was.
00:29:22Yeah.
00:29:22Which was 385 to the foot of him.
00:29:25Yeah.
00:29:26Off of the pitch in a red barrack.
00:29:28Yeah.
00:29:28I remember that.
00:29:29And I came around third base and he said he'd leave the ballpark and he'd buy the champagne.
00:29:34When I came around third base, he was going in the clubhouse.
00:29:38What night he bought the champagne.
00:29:40That's a good story.
00:29:41Real good.
00:29:44And, uh, in 49, Luke Soar came over toward the end of the year replacing Bucky.
00:29:51That's right.
00:29:53And, uh, you had, uh, the likes of Peanuts Lowry, Walker Cooper.
00:29:59He must have been headed downhill there.
00:30:01He was heading down.
00:30:02Yeah.
00:30:03And, uh, Raffenberger, wasn't he a character?
00:30:07Uh, Raffi had the best philosophy in pitching anybody ever had in the big leagues.
00:30:13What was that?
00:30:14You got him out of the first inning, or he went nine innings.
00:30:18He didn't get knocked out in the fifth, or the seventh, or the eighth.
00:30:22He, uh...
00:30:23You had to get him in the first.
00:30:24He had him.
00:30:25He was a spot pitcher.
00:30:26Uh-huh.
00:30:26And if he didn't hit that spot, Raffi was in trouble and he'd be out of there in the first.
00:30:30Uh-huh.
00:30:32Uh-huh.
00:30:33And, uh, Harry Fox had a good year that season.
00:30:38Uh, yeah.
00:30:39Harry helped, and then Harry hurt his...
00:30:41That's right.
00:30:41He never did anything bad.
00:30:42That's right.
00:30:43Put it on.
00:30:44And in 50, you moved over to the Cubs under Frankie Frisch.
00:30:49How was Frankie the manager?
00:30:52Uh, no comment.
00:30:53That's right.
00:30:54I played ball for too many years for McKechnie.
00:30:57That's a good, good point.
00:31:01Um, then in 51, you were with Cleveland under our low fence.
00:31:08That's right.
00:31:09They had a great, uh, great pitching staff in Cleveland at that time.
00:31:14That was the greatest staff I ever saw.
00:31:15Uh, we had a great one in Cincinnati, you know, and myself and Wallers and Burns had got going.
00:31:20Right.
00:31:20We started them and we finished them.
00:31:22Uh-huh.
00:31:23But, uh, Cleveland had four of them.
00:31:25That's right.
00:31:26That's right.
00:31:26They had, uh, Fowler, Wynn, and, uh, Lamin and Garcia.
00:31:33Yeah.
00:31:33Uh, the other part of the ball club was, uh, uh, not much speed.
00:31:38Uh-huh.
00:31:39It was a slow ball club.
00:31:41Yeah.
00:31:41Uh-huh.
00:31:41And not a whole lot of wild, and there wasn't an outstanding defensive ball club at all.
00:31:46Uh-huh.
00:31:47But, uh, there was, uh, fantastic pitching on that.
00:31:51They started them and they finished them.
00:31:52Yeah.
00:31:53There were four tough pitchers with great attitude to win.
00:31:58Yeah.
00:31:59If attitude means anything, there was four guys.
00:32:02I don't have my book here to look at, but, uh, they had one season where, uh, they had four
00:32:08twenty-game winners, I think.
00:32:09I don't know whether that was the year or not.
00:32:11It may have been when they took the pennant in 54.
00:32:14Well, all four of those guys, after two base hits in a row, any one of the four would deck
00:32:20the next guy.
00:32:22Great pitching.
00:32:23Fantastic.
00:32:25All right.
00:32:26Now, uh, did they have Kenny Keltner third in, uh, that year?
00:32:29No.
00:32:30They had Al Rosen.
00:32:31Oh, yeah.
00:32:31Al had a, you know, Al had a real good year.
00:32:34Yeah.
00:32:34He had a good year.
00:32:36He was, Al, Al was basically the real thump on our ball club as far as consistency was.
00:32:41Mm-hmm.
00:32:41Larry Doby was there, but Larry, he was kind of, he was up and down.
00:32:45But Al was, uh, a very aggressive ball player.
00:32:48He played about six, seven years, but he was a good one.
00:32:52Yeah.
00:32:53Lopo said this morning that, uh, Doby was fighting himself too much.
00:32:57He was, uh, wanted to do better than he, uh, was and, uh, would get to worrying and not
00:33:05produce his best.
00:33:06Well, sometimes, uh, Doby probably over-hustled himself.
00:33:09Mm-hmm.
00:33:10Even in the outfields, uh, he'd run right on by five balls.
00:33:14Al probably told you.
00:33:15He said that.
00:33:15For his great speed, he was not a, uh, uh, not a great outfielder.
00:33:21Um, who was the best manager you played for?
00:33:28McKechnie?
00:33:28Well, there's no question about that.
00:33:30He could, uh, he was a great, uh, handler of pitchers, uh, and he loved pitchers to, uh,
00:33:38go nine, nine innings, and, uh, he would, he would put you on a, uh, on a system of starting
00:33:46every so many days, and we started against, regardless of who you was playing, he got you
00:33:51on that rotation, he got your system going, and he stayed with it, and, uh, he played that,
00:33:58that certain percentage that he never violated at certain percentage.
00:34:02He wouldn't violate that certain percentage.
00:34:04Mm-hmm.
00:34:06All right, um, and your best team that you were on, you think, was the 40?
00:34:13Reds team.
00:34:14Yeah, but the 40, what club, the butter club, and, uh, the 39, but it was, uh, we'd like
00:34:20that, uh, Riley Berger just had finished up and went to Indianapolis with me, and we lost
00:34:25that right-handed player.
00:34:26Yeah.
00:34:27And, uh, put the pitch around Lombardi.
00:34:32Yeah.
00:34:32And, uh, I might add this.
00:34:35If there's only thing I've seen in baseball that I don't agree with, why isn't Ernie Lombardi
00:34:42in my father's family from absolute discretion?
00:34:44I don't understand that either.
00:34:46In fact, there are several mysteries, but that's, that's one of the biggest.
00:34:49Well, I think so.
00:34:50He was the only catcher in the history of the game that led the league twice in the hitting.
00:34:56That's right.
00:34:57And, uh, if you think out of this way, for Lombardi to hit .341 or, uh, with his speed,
00:35:02he had to get some, uh, a lot of awfully clean hits.
00:35:06There aren't little old things he squibs that he'd beat out on the infield.
00:35:09And another thing with Lombardi, Lombardi goes down with, uh, uh, like, with, you know,
00:35:16back Mike and, uh, uh, throwing.
00:35:19Has he really?
00:35:20No, uh, yeah.
00:35:21He's got no shots.
00:35:22Great throwers of the game.
00:35:24Never ready to let anybody run without throwing the ball.
00:35:26They don't have as many great throwing catchers these days, do they?
00:35:30That's one of the big weaknesses in the game for these throwing pitchers.
00:35:33Our title, uh, now the bench is gone, uh, Carter's a real good thrower.
00:35:39Yeah.
00:35:39I'm talking about, I saw, I saw, I saw Cochran throw, uh, I saw, uh, Hartman throw.
00:35:46Hartman was a good thrower.
00:35:47Oh, yes.
00:35:48Dickie was a good thrower.
00:35:49Yes.
00:35:50Perrier was a good thrower.
00:35:51Mm-hmm.
00:35:52Uh, there were several good throwers.
00:35:55Walker Cooper was a good thrower.
00:35:57Mm-hmm.
00:35:57Uh, but, uh, Lombardi was, uh, a great good one.
00:36:01You know, but they weren't any better Lombardi.
00:36:03How do you reckon they can't come up with pitchers and throw like that anymore now?
00:36:08I, I don't know.
00:36:10I don't know.
00:36:11A mystery.
00:36:11I only watch games for a celebration.
00:36:13I see this throwers up here, and that throwers over there, and that throwers over there, and
00:36:16that throwers over there.
00:36:17Of course, Cy was a great tiger.
00:36:21Tony Herman was a great tiger.
00:36:22Oh, sure.
00:36:22I thought Romano was a good thrower.
00:36:24Yeah.
00:36:25Uh, it means, uh, it means a lot to have a good tiger down there because, uh,
00:36:29Mm-hmm.
00:36:29They just swipe that ball in there, and, uh, half the time they don't touch it.
00:36:33Yeah.
00:36:34But, uh, if that throw is there, well, if the thrower beats you, you're out.
00:36:38That's right.
00:36:38I mean, it should be.
00:36:39No, no, no, no, no umpire's going to stick his neck out to that.
00:36:41Yeah.
00:36:42But, uh, the throws aren't there.
00:36:45That's not enough.
00:36:45I don't think that as many catches are, there's a quicker release as they used to, uh,
00:36:50you're out of line.
00:36:51Well, I love his own.
00:36:52Mm-hmm.
00:36:54I think that, uh, a great throwing couple has got to come out of their firing.
00:36:59Mm-hmm.
00:37:00He's got to have a good arm, and he's got to have accuracy.
00:37:04That's right.
00:37:04The thing that Lombardi was great for, Lombardi was a silent thrower.
00:37:10Mm-hmm.
00:37:11And, uh, I saw a lot of good catches.
00:37:14A lot of, a lot of catches, sit back there and consistently caught for fastballs that
00:37:18they knew somebody was running.
00:37:20Mm-hmm.
00:37:21I don't care who was running, what the game situation was, Lombardi was just that,
00:37:26as soon, apt before.
00:37:28Caught for a cold ball because he came out of their firm.
00:37:30If he was down low, he came out of their sidearm.
00:37:33Mm-hmm.
00:37:33Um, but a left hand.
00:37:34And he had picked off, you know.
00:37:36A left hand, I bet I never got in his way with a sidearm delivery, huh?
00:37:39Yeah.
00:37:40Well, he could come up over the top.
00:37:41Yeah.
00:37:41But he was one of the few guys that could throw hard sidearm.
00:37:44Uh-huh.
00:37:45Uh-huh.
00:37:45And he would pick off about five to seven guys a year off of first bases and throwing
00:37:53behind left hand hitters sidearm.
00:37:55Yeah, yeah, I can see what you're saying.
00:37:58Yeah.
00:37:58Great thrower.
00:37:59Yeah, great.
00:38:01Who was the best hitter that you saw on your day?
00:38:04Uh-huh.
00:38:05Well, everybody's got a cousin and everybody's got somebody they can get out and somebody
00:38:09they can't get out.
00:38:10Mm-hmm.
00:38:11Uh-huh.
00:38:11Walker Cooper hit left hand in the real world.
00:38:14Mm-hmm.
00:38:15And I was only towards the end of Walker Cooper's career just before he joined us and he was
00:38:20still with the Giants and I started to get Cooper out.
00:38:22Huh.
00:38:23Uh, everything he hit off me was a shot someplace.
00:38:26Oh, right.
00:38:26He gave me a problem.
00:38:28Hmm.
00:38:29But usually it's just the opposite.
00:38:31Mm-hmm.
00:38:32So I'm starting to tell you that I got him out better than anybody in the game.
00:38:36And the reason I did was because he used to swing up five balls off him.
00:38:41Did he really?
00:38:42And I gave, I believe I was probably the only pitcher in the game when he ever swung up five
00:38:47balls because he was, he did not swing up five balls.
00:38:51Uh-huh, uh-huh.
00:38:52Yeah, I got the balls in on him and he was tearing in on him and he'd step into the
00:38:56ball
00:38:56and he wouldn't fall away.
00:38:58Mm-hmm.
00:39:00Well, who was the best hitter in the league, not against you, but in the league?
00:39:06Consistently in your day?
00:39:09Well, I always looked at the hitters who might hurt you.
00:39:16Mm-hmm.
00:39:17And each pitcher has guys who, you know, who could hurt you a lot.
00:39:20Yeah, Muddwick, Muddwick was there.
00:39:22Uh-huh.
00:39:22There was a fellow who, uh, would give you a problem.
00:39:26He could give anybody a problem.
00:39:28Uh-huh.
00:39:29Uh-huh.
00:39:29I want to say probably great hitter.
00:39:32Uh-huh.
00:39:32Well, P. Wainer.
00:39:34Yeah.
00:39:34Was there, was there.
00:39:36And he could hurt you as well as, uh, Hitcher Average and everything.
00:39:39And Myers could hurt you.
00:39:41Oh, Myers.
00:39:42Myers would hurt you.
00:39:42Yeah, yeah.
00:39:43Uh-huh.
00:39:46Uh-huh.
00:39:46Uh-huh.
00:39:47Uh-huh.
00:39:47In the Leopold.
00:39:50There was something there.
00:39:51There was no problem in the Polygon.
00:39:53Sure.
00:39:53We didn't have much of a problem in Cincinnati because our fence was 387.
00:39:57Mm-hmm.
00:39:57And we could make it hitter more fire than the Polygon.
00:40:00Oh, no.
00:40:01Oh, sure.
00:40:02Yeah.
00:40:04Um.
00:40:08All right.
00:40:10Do you have an idea of, uh, somebody you'd call the best all-round player in your day?
00:40:18Well, I would say that in my day I'd probably have to kind of lean toward, uh, Musial.
00:40:29Uh-huh.
00:40:31The reason I would lean toward Musial is the fact that, uh, he could play two positions as well.
00:40:37There was not very many great golfers could play two positions.
00:40:40Mm-hmm.
00:40:41There was not very much ever said and written about that.
00:40:43Mm-hmm.
00:40:44But, uh, DiMaggio couldn't play two positions.
00:40:46Yeah.
00:40:46He tried.
00:40:47Uh, a lot of great ones.
00:40:49Uh, Williams couldn't do it.
00:40:50No.
00:40:51But Stan came in from left field to first base.
00:40:53Yeah, just to allow a first match.
00:40:55Yeah, yeah.
00:40:55Stan was never given cover for us.
00:40:57He'd better just score up in first base.
00:40:59He's a great base runner.
00:41:01Mm-hmm.
00:41:01He didn't steal bases.
00:41:03But when he took off, he could run those bases.
00:41:06Left to home, first to third.
00:41:07Uh-huh.
00:41:08First to home.
00:41:09I thought Musial was a great base runner.
00:41:11Well, that's certainly not.
00:41:12So he did a few other things besides.
00:41:14Good solid choice.
00:41:15With that ball.
00:41:18What was your best throwing base model?
00:41:20Two no-hitters?
00:41:24Well, everybody gets asked that question.
00:41:26Mm-hmm.
00:41:26I think I got a little bit different answer for that.
00:41:29Good.
00:41:29Good.
00:41:29I think my biggest struggle is having the rough kids and the other one to be big league ballplayers.
00:41:34Mm-hmm.
00:41:35And I finally got to Cincinnati after about five years, four or five years.
00:41:41And I got my own locker, my own name over the top of that locker.
00:41:45Mm-hmm.
00:41:46With my name in the uniform.
00:41:48And I was in the big leagues.
00:41:51I prefer the boys' dream.
00:41:54And if I had to pick an individual.
00:41:56Yeah.
00:41:56I'm thrilled.
00:41:57I think I would say that that was my biggest thrill.
00:41:59That makes sense.
00:42:01That makes sense.
00:42:02Or that 13-inning ballgame in Philadelphia was a thrill.
00:42:09Sure.
00:42:10And I participated, you know, in that one of the sports games in the big leagues also.
00:42:15God.
00:42:16I think it was either 15 or 15 or 15.
00:42:21I had 17 innings in Brooklyn at the 19-inning ballgame that went 0-0 and had to be called
00:42:27a battle of darkness, but she wasn't allowed to turn the lights on.
00:42:29Yeah.
00:42:31And, uh...
00:42:32I'll be talking about 25.
00:42:35About what year it was, do you remember?
00:42:37Uh, that was, uh, I think right after the war.
00:42:43Yeah.
00:42:44Right after the war.
00:42:44Gary Gumbert finished it.
00:42:47Wow.
00:42:47And I got thrown out from first place with two outs.
00:42:52Gumbert joined?
00:42:53Yeah.
00:42:5415?
00:42:54And, uh, the technique took me out.
00:42:56I think I went to first 15 or 16.
00:42:58Yeah.
00:42:58Gumbert joined you in 47.
00:43:00Uh-huh.
00:43:01Oh.
00:43:01Must have been that year.
00:43:02Yeah.
00:43:02That year or the year after.
00:43:04Yeah.
00:43:05The game went 19 innings, and at that time we were not allowed to throw the lights on
00:43:10and continue the game, so we started at 1-30 and it was called at 7 o'clock that night.
00:43:13Ha, ha, ha, ha.
00:43:14I think if that happened today, why, uh, the Union, uh, I don't want to call it a strike,
00:43:21or the agent would run on the field, or...
00:43:22Well, the manager used six pitchers, but, uh, I only gave up five hits, and, uh, I think
00:43:28that was probably the greatest game ever.
00:43:29That's wonderful.
00:43:32Well, uh, what, uh, did you have a big disappointment?
00:43:36What would be your biggest disappointment out of baseball?
00:43:40Well, I, uh, I would say probably my biggest disappointment would be when I came up with
00:43:47other arm trouble.
00:43:48Happened to be.
00:43:49Those two years, I got critical...
00:43:52Yeah.
00:43:52...stakes.
00:43:52Yeah.
00:43:53The other thing that really hurt me was, after I got that straightened out, I went into
00:44:00the service.
00:44:02Mm-hmm.
00:44:02That's the prime of my life.
00:44:04That's right.
00:44:04But, uh, that I don't regret.
00:44:07No, and, uh, that's not something that, uh, there was much choice on anyway.
00:44:12Well, I think that, uh, as you get out of the way, you'll try to serve your country.
00:44:17Oh, yeah.
00:44:18No.
00:44:18I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't regret that a lot.
00:44:23I don't regret that a lot.
00:44:24I don't blame you.
00:44:26Okay.
00:44:26After 1951, what'd you do?
00:44:31I managed in, uh, Redshampton.
00:44:35For how long?
00:44:36Where?
00:44:36For how long?
00:44:37Uh, my first year was at Douglas, Georgia.
00:44:40I went up front of it.
00:44:42And I went to Haratka, Florida.
00:44:45Uh, two years, and I went up there.
00:44:49I went to Daytona for a year, and come in second place.
00:44:54And I went to, uh, three-eyed league.
00:44:58Mm-hmm.
00:44:58Born from Iowa.
00:45:01And two years at the Speaker, Kansas.
00:45:05When I came back here to, uh, right here to Tampa, and go up in Pete Rose.
00:45:11And I'll be back.
00:45:12And, uh, stayed here.
00:45:14For a year and a half.
00:45:15Went to Syracuse, and internationally.
00:45:18And, uh, in the meantime, in the off-season, I had been working for at Douglas,
00:45:23and I had the chance to go with the Mets coaching.
00:45:30But, uh...
00:45:31Ah, a patient with medicine.
00:45:33Yeah, patient with medicine.
00:45:35And, uh, John Murphy was, uh, there was a working agreement between the Mets and Syracuse.
00:45:40That's how it all happened.
00:45:42And, uh, but, uh, the business, uh, world, uh, feared, uh, too much for me at that time.
00:45:50And when I aged, and I met the security agent.
00:45:54Mm-hmm.
00:45:54So I worked for Sluts, and retired as a military sales manager for him.
00:46:02Took 20 years with him.
00:46:04Which ended up, for me, better than my baseball career.
00:46:07Yeah.
00:46:08I can build it.
00:46:09Yeah.
00:46:10And now you're retired completely.
00:46:12I've been retired 20 years.
00:46:14Yeah.
00:46:15When did you sell down here in, uh, Sarasota?
00:46:18In Climper?
00:46:20All right.
00:46:20Well, on top, I mean.
00:46:22Uh, I came there after the war.
00:46:25Mm-hmm.
00:46:25Mm-hmm.
00:46:26Mm-hmm.
00:46:57You just gave us a great deal of control about the New Yorker exception $10 million.
00:47:03I guess you, uh, shop, lots of people.
00:47:03Mm-hmm.
00:47:04Mm-hmm.
00:47:07Mm-hmm.
00:47:19Mm-hmm.
00:47:20Yeah.
00:47:23Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:24Mm-hmm.
00:47:24Mm-hmm.
00:47:24I'm pretty sure that we're not able to make sure that� had an import of the New Yorker.
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