00:07My guest today on 12 Minutes With is France's Minister Delegate for Europe, Benjamin Haddad.
00:14Minister, really good to have you with us.
00:15Thanks for having me.
00:16So I need to start by asking you about the situation in Ukraine.
00:20Russia is now threatening further strikes on Kyiv after we saw those horrendous attacks
00:26over the weekend with the hypersonic Oreshnik missiles.
00:31Is it now time, do you think, for Europe to really get seriously involved in peace talks,
00:37including speaking to Russia?
00:39What we've seen over the last few days is one more criminal escalation from Russia against
00:44Ukraine's civilians.
00:45But the truth is, it's also a sign of the utter failure of Russia's war of aggression against
00:50Ukraine.
00:51Russia is losing ground on the battlefield, and we see Ukraine's incredible innovation
00:57when it comes to drones, for example, on the battlefield.
00:59It's losing ground diplomatically, and it was hoping for a long time to divide Europeans,
01:05that we will weaken our resolve.
01:06We've seen exactly the opposite.
01:07And we see Russia losing ground everywhere diplomatically.
01:11You know, I was just in Armenia recently for the European political community, where we
01:15also had the EU-Armenia state visit.
01:18One more country like Moldova, like Sweden and Finland that joined NATO, that wants to get
01:24rid of Russia's tutelage and get closer to Europeans' norms and standards.
01:29This is the reality of Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine.
01:32If that is the case, as you say, and Russia is being weakened by Ukraine's resistance, isn't
01:39that then an opportune moment for Europe to step in and to say, it's time to talk?
01:44I know President Emmanuel Macron has previously called for this.
01:47No, you're right.
01:47President Macron has always said that when the time is right, we should have our own channel
01:52of communication with Russia, because there's no reason to let the Americans alone at the
01:57negotiation table when, first and foremost, it's the security of Europe that's at stake.
02:02Now, you have to look at the reality, which is that Russia is not engaging seriously in
02:06diplomacy.
02:06It's not interested in the ceasefire and peace.
02:09It continues its escalation.
02:10So I think the key now is to continue to provide our support to Ukraine, is to continue to increase
02:15the pressure on Russia economically.
02:17So just for clarity, I understand you're saying now is not the right time.
02:22And if so, doesn't it make sense for Europe, nonetheless, to be preparing for that time,
02:27including thinking of who could do this role?
02:30Who has the credibility, the clout to speak to the Russians?
02:33No, look, I see that this debate is going on in the media and the commentary.
02:37And you're right that once again, you know, Europeans need to take matters in their own
02:41hand.
02:41And so there's no reason why we should let others negotiate on the behalf of European,
02:46of the European security architecture.
02:48So Europeans should be ready also to have their own diplomatic track, as President Macron
02:54has said repeatedly.
02:55But I would say our priority now, clearly, is to continue to support Ukraine, to continue
03:00to increase the pressure on Russia.
03:01In the meantime, Ukraine is pushing for swift progress on its enlargement path.
03:08The German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, has recently proposed, of course, this kind of concept
03:12of associate EU membership, participation in talks, but no real votes.
03:17How do you receive his proposal?
03:19Well, first look, you know, France supports Ukraine, Moldova's EU candidacy.
03:25And the next step for me, the immediate step, I would say, looking at the June European
03:31Council, is the opening of the first cluster of negotiation on fundamentals, which, as you
03:37know, has been weaponized, instrumentalized by Viktor Orban before for electoral domestic
03:42reasons.
03:43Now that he lost the elections, I think, you know, it should be based on the own merits.
03:47And each country should advance based on its reforms, on the integration of the ITK communitaire.
03:52Ukraine and Moldova are ready to open the first cluster.
03:55So first, let's do this.
03:56And then it's important that we continue this work on the reforms.
03:59This is why, by the way, we've always said there's no shortcut.
04:03It's a long, it's a demanding process.
04:05It's about the fight against corruption, the independence of judiciary, the protection
04:10of minorities, et cetera, et cetera.
04:11Now, with that being said, you know, France was the country initially that pushed, you
04:17a few years ago for a more gradual form of accession where you integrate certain blocks
04:22of policies.
04:24And I understand also the need to send a message, to send a signal to the Ukrainian population
04:28that we want Ukraine down the road to be a member, a full member of the European Union.
04:34So we're ready to work also on how to, I would say, complete, how to perfect that gradual integration.
04:41And I think opening the debate and opening the conversation on this is positive.
04:45But Ukraine would say this is part of our security guarantees.
04:48This is actually about securing our future.
04:51And there are active efforts from the US, for example, to broker peace talks where these
04:56kind of details will be discussed.
04:58So I'll ask you again, does France have any ideas right now about how this kind of swifter
05:04integration of Ukraine could look?
05:06Are you open to some of the ideas that have been floated here in Brussels?
05:10Well, first, a couple of points on what you mentioned in your question, because you talked
05:13about the US diplomatic track.
05:15But let's be clear.
05:16It's not up to either the US or Russia or any actor external to the EU to decide who gets
05:22a membership within the European Union.
05:24That's a negotiation, a track, a reform process of Ukraine with the Europeans.
05:29And we're there to support Ukraine.
05:31We're there to accompany Ukraine.
05:32There is no shortcut for this accession.
05:34This is precisely, by the way, why the public opinion support the enlargement process in the
05:40candidate states.
05:41It's because they know that it's synonymous with anchoring the rule of law, anchoring
05:46liberal democracy, with ensuring checks and balance, ensuring the fight against corruption.
05:51We've always been in support of more gradual accession where you don't switch off and off
05:57the light when you get in, but you progressively integrate certain blocks of policy.
06:01And that's work that we can shape, that we can work on with Germany, with our partners, with
06:05the European Commission.
06:07I want to ask you about the EU's long-term budget, which is under negotiation right now.
06:12And there's clearly a rift between the more frugal, let's say, states who want a smaller
06:17budget and those and an increasing number of countries who say we need more own resources
06:21and we need more joint borrowing.
06:24Where does France stand in the middle of this?
06:26And can you mediate between these two camps?
06:28Look, it's very clear when you look at the historical situation which we're in right
06:33now, that we need more investment capacities for Europe to strengthen our strategic autonomy
06:38in all the key strategic areas.
06:40When you think of defense, space, AI, quantum, green tech, this budget, you know, because when
06:45you're going to look at it through an accounting perspective, at the end of the day, it's a
06:49political and strategic conversation about the kind of Europe that we want for the next
06:53decade.
06:53In this context, yes, we need an ambitious budget.
06:57And it's true that it cannot rely solely on the contribution of the member states because
07:02there's not the fiscal capacity for this, let's be honest.
07:05So this is why, and France has said this repeatedly, a sine qua non condition for us for the adoption
07:11of the budget is having an ambitious package of own resources.
07:14I think what's important in these own resources is that they don't weigh on European companies
07:20or household actors that are external to Europe and protect our single market, and that they
07:25don't duplicate national resources already existing.
07:29And then you mentioned common borrowing.
07:31Yes, look, you know, we did it in other critical moments for Europe.
07:35We did it, of course, during COVID with Next Generation EU.
07:38For the first time, we managed to overcome a taboo and pull together common debt to be able to invest
07:45into the recovery of our economy.
07:47But let's be honest, we also did it just a couple of months ago with the 90 billion loan to
07:52Ukraine.
07:52And once again, we borrowed on the market with safe liquid assets from the European Union.
07:57There's actually a lot of demand on markets for assets coming from the European Union, which is a reliable, trusted
08:03financial partner.
08:05And I think when you look at areas like defense, like space or like AI, where we're underinvesting, we're underleveraged
08:12compared to the US, for example.
08:14This is where it would make sense indeed to once again borrow on the markets and inject investment massively to
08:21support our own innovators, our own companies.
08:23Your president, Emmanuel Macron, has been pushing for this, of course.
08:26In February, he did say at the previous summit, which was held here in Belgium, that there needs to be
08:31a plan now to kind of revive Europe's competitiveness by June.
08:36That's really around the corner. It's next week.
08:38So has progress been made in terms of convincing others that euro bonds, joint borrowing, is the way to go?
08:45And if not, could France move along with like-minded countries despite not having the support of the 27th?
08:52And I think when you have a core group of member states that want to move forward, that want to
08:56deepen their integration and cooperation on these issues, then, you know, at some point, we should be able to move
09:02forward and create momentum for others to join.
09:04Now, on your first question, has there been a plan and a move?
09:07Yes, because the commission actually proposed a plan that's drawing on the Draghi and Letta reports called One Market, One
09:13Europe,
09:14that precisely gives, I think, an ambitious legislative agenda for the next couple of years to deepen a single market,
09:20whether that's on reducing our internal fragmentation with the saving investment union, the 28th regime,
09:27whether that's on simplifying our norms and we need to accelerate the work that we've done with the different omnibuses,
09:33whether that's on investment.
09:34And we mentioned on the MFF, we need to protect our industry more.
09:38You know, let's don't be naive.
09:39The Americans do it.
09:40The Chinese do it.
09:41We're facing tariffs from the U.S.
09:43We're facing more aggressive trade practices coming from China with subsidized overcapacities on steel, on EVs.
09:52They're coming and they're having a very destructive impact on our industry.
09:56And that means also tougher measures against China to address these overcapacities that you mentioned?
10:01Yes, because at the end of the day, you know, we're for trade, but we're for reciprocal trade, fair trade
10:07on a level playing field.
10:08But we can see that the time is running out.
10:10It's 10,000 jobs that are destroyed, 10,000 manufacturing industrial jobs destroyed every month in Germany because of the
10:17competition.
10:18But do your German counterparts see this as a serious stretch?
10:21Are you confident that seeing it in the same way as you're seeing it?
10:24Look, I think there's a realization that's coming across everywhere in Europe.
10:27And for a long time, you know, we thought that it was safe to export to China.
10:32And now we see, on the contrary, that you see a technological know-how that's increasing in China with the
10:39support also of the state.
10:40And that at the end of the day, you know, we are 450 million people.
10:44We have a strong single market.
10:46There's every reason to be optimistic about the power that a single market can represent.
10:50But only if we're able to leverage it and we have all the tools at our disposal, whether that's safeguard
10:55clauses, whether that's tariffs, whether that's bi-European clauses that we can put with the industrial accelerator, for example.
11:02So now the key is not to be naive.
11:05Look at what others are doing and protect ourselves as well.
11:08You know, look at the U.S.
11:09The U.S., they didn't have to wait for Trump to do the Buy America Act.
11:13They didn't have to wait for Trump to do the Inflation Reduction Act, which is a massive...
11:16So has Europe been moving too slowly, Minister, on this?
11:17Yes, I think so, because I think that we're still maybe sometimes the last evangelist of a religion that no
11:24one is practicing anymore.
11:25You know, the religion of unfettered free trade, of the WTO, which clearly China and the U.S. have abandoned
11:34a long time ago.
11:35So, you know, the commitment to this international law, international trade law, it's important, but you have to be strong
11:41to be respected.
11:42You have to be able to defend your interest as well, and you have to be able to use all
11:47the tools that you leverage,
11:48especially to impose just very basic principle of fairness and reciprocity.
11:54Okay, Minister Adat, thank you so much.
Comments