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¿Invertir más en defensa?: aumenta la brecha entre varios eurodiputados
¿Es el aumento del gasto en defensa en Europa una inversión estratégica o un gesto para contentar a Donald Trump? Es el tema de esta semana en 'The Ring', con los eurodiputados Marc Botenga y Lukas Mandl enfrentados.
MÁS INFORMACIÓN : http://es.euronews.com/2026/05/22/invertir-mas-en-defensa-eurodiputados-discrepan-sobre-el-futuro-militar-de-europa-en-the-r
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¿Es el aumento del gasto en defensa en Europa una inversión estratégica o un gesto para contentar a Donald Trump? Es el tema de esta semana en 'The Ring', con los eurodiputados Marc Botenga y Lukas Mandl enfrentados.
MÁS INFORMACIÓN : http://es.euronews.com/2026/05/22/invertir-mas-en-defensa-eurodiputados-discrepan-sobre-el-futuro-militar-de-europa-en-the-r
¡Suscríbete a nuestro canal! Euronews está disponible en 12 idiomas
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00:08Hello and welcome to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show broadcasting from the European Parliament in Strasbourg today.
00:16I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:17On The Ring, members of the European Parliament go face-to-face on some of the biggest issues facing Europe.
00:23Today, we're going to talk about European defence efforts in a fast-changing geopolitical environment.
00:31Luis Alberto has more.
00:34Wars in Ukraine and Iran, economic insecurity and questions about the future of NATO.
00:40Europe finds itself at a moment of profound uncertainty.
00:44That sense of vulnerability has triggered a historic shift in European defence policy.
00:49Countries that for decades reduced military budgets are now dramatically increasing defence spending.
00:56Europe is also trying to redefine its alliance.
00:59And many European leaders argue that Europe must become more strategically autonomous.
01:03At the same time, Europe fears being sidelined if the world increasingly becomes shaped by deals between the United States,
01:10China and Russia.
01:12Can Europe successfully navigate this turbulent period?
01:15Can it emerge as truly independent global power?
01:21A lot to unpack here for our contenders.
01:24And here they are.
01:27Lukas Mandl, an Austrian MEP from the Central-Right European People's Party.
01:32He's a member of the Committees on Development, Legal Affairs and Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs at the European
01:38Parliament.
01:39Regarding the EU's priorities at a time of growing global uncertainty and geopolitical turmoil,
01:43he said, it's the economy, stupid.
01:46Let's put first things first.
01:49Mark Botenga, a Belgian MEP from the Left Group.
01:52He's a member of the Committees on Foreign Affairs and Security and Defence at the European Parliament.
01:57He has criticised the EU's position on the global stage,
02:00arguing that the double standards of this Europe are not only a disgrace,
02:03they also allow the creation of a world of chaos and war.
02:06So be ashamed, because today, this Europe is not a force for good, but an accomplice to crime.
02:15So let me welcome to the ring Lukas Mandl and Mark Botenga.
02:19Good to see you. Great to have you here.
02:22The aim of the ring is to offer our viewers a glimpse at European Parliament debates,
02:27so you should feel right at home.
02:30Are you ready?
02:31You're ready. Thanks for having me.
02:33Good. I want to start with something provocative, Mark Botenga.
02:37Will more money, more defence money, actually make Europe safer,
02:41or are governments confusing spending with strategy?
02:46Oh, I think definitely we don't have a strategy right now, so I think that's very impressive.
02:50Like, we put in a lot of money, right, hundreds and hundreds of billions going to the defence sector,
02:55very often with little conditions, first of all.
02:57So we also see that at the same time you have these multinational companies
03:00that are now sending a lot more money to their shareholders.
03:03But I'm like, are we just sponsoring basically not just their profits,
03:07but even their dividends, their share buybacks?
03:09So this is one question.
03:10But secondly, what are our priorities?
03:12We see that people are buying, you know,
03:15armoured vehicles to be used in the West of Africa.
03:18We're seeing the F-35 fighter jets being bought by member states.
03:23And I'm like, what is this for?
03:24This is not for our defence.
03:26You know, this is, if we, with all of the money and all the material we have,
03:29you know, which is much more than what Russia has,
03:31you know, we have many times more tanks, many times more fighter jets,
03:34many times more battleships than Russia has.
03:37We see Russia struggling, you know,
03:38they were unable to even organise the parade in Moscow.
03:42Why are we not able to defend ourselves with the money we're already spending?
03:45Yeah. Let me take that question right to Lukas Mandel.
03:48Defence strategy or not?
03:50Oh, it's like everybody needs an insurance.
03:52If you're driving a car or doing whatever,
03:55you need insurance and spending money for defence.
03:58It's an insurance for our security in the first place.
04:01And secondly, it's also for the very cause of Europe's prosperity,
04:05because the more we can innovate and produce on European soil,
04:09the better for jobs, for growth and for Europe's economic future.
04:13On this point, connecting Europe stronger,
04:17I mean, it's not like Europe doesn't have armies,
04:20it doesn't have had armies or defence spending before.
04:23Isn't the problem really inefficiency and fragmentation in Europe
04:28when we talk about military?
04:29Well, I remember the European Commission,
04:31the previous one, the one of Jean-Claude Juncker, you know,
04:33saying if we work together better at the European level,
04:36we can save up to 100 billion euros on defence spending.
04:42I'm like, that's marvellous. Let's do that, right?
04:45And now you see, no, we work together better,
04:46but we also need to spend hundreds of billions more
04:49while we're already outspending vast amount of countries in the world.
04:54Most countries in the world spend a lot less than European countries do.
04:57We need to really, really be aware of that.
05:00So there is no underfunding?
05:02Oh, there's absolutely no underfunding.
05:03There might be a very bad use of some of the funds.
05:06This is something else.
05:06We've seen it at European level as well.
05:08You know, until very recently, drones were not a priority,
05:11not a top priority of the European defence spending.
05:14Then suddenly it became everything.
05:16You know, drones were everything we needed, the Alpha, the Omega.
05:19And now we're again, yeah, maybe it's not drones that are the main priority.
05:23So this is what I was saying.
05:24There's no real strategy,
05:25but there is an idea of saying Europe, you know,
05:27should be a main player globally.
05:30This is not about defence.
05:32This is about Europe being able to project power in the rest of the world,
05:35you know, in Africa, in the Middle East.
05:38Not defence, attack.
05:39Do you agree?
05:41We have big underfunding.
05:43We have had it for many decades in Europe.
05:46We have to invest in drones.
05:47I really want to address these conspiracy theories that are there
05:51as if it would not be for our defence, but for a different cause.
05:54It's for our defence.
05:55Europe is the very entity on this planet that's planning military matters
06:01in the very field of defence, not in the field of attack.
06:04And drones are obviously what's really needed in today's warfare.
06:08And if we are well equipped in the field of drones,
06:11if we have innovation also in the drones field,
06:13and also production on European soil for jobs and prosperity,
06:16then we have a smaller probability that we will be attacked
06:20because we will be more secure if we are able to defend ourselves.
06:24And this is the whole philosophy of defence.
06:27So our security is at stake.
06:29And I think conspiracy theories are rather harming our European unity
06:34and our European defence capability.
06:36First of all, I don't think the massive increase is justified.
06:39Let's say this first.
06:40Secondly, I think it actually will weaken Europe on the long term as well
06:44because contrary to what you're saying,
06:46it is not a good idea for our industry.
06:48You know, we have, you speak about jobs.
06:50Basically, the defence industry yields less jobs for money invested
06:53than other sectors do.
06:55You will not save the steel industry with militarisation.
06:58You know, producing 1,000 tanks,
07:00it's about three days of production of a steel factory.
07:03So you can see that you're actually weakening also.
07:05There's a negative multiplier effect
07:07that might be applied to other industries.
07:10So you're weakening structurally the industrial base of Europe
07:13by saying we put more defence but we will lose other sectors.
07:16Look at the automobile sector.
07:17And secondly, indeed, what is the threat that justifies, you know, this massive...
07:22Why, for example, if I hear the German Chancellor, right,
07:25saying I want to have the biggest army in Europe.
07:28Why do you want the biggest army in Europe?
07:30Is that your threat assessment?
07:32That the problem is you don't have the biggest army in Europe?
07:34We need to be very clear.
07:36There are threats, you know, and one of the threats is the arms race.
07:39One of the threats is nuclear war.
07:40Let's be very clear.
07:41This is very clear.
07:42How do you deal with that?
07:44During the Cold War, we knew disarmament, transparency,
07:49limitations on arms control systems.
07:51All of these things we knew during the Cold War
07:54with the Soviet Union that was vastly more powerful
07:56and vastly more ideological than Putin or Putin's Russia will ever be.
08:01Okay.
08:02Do you hear this?
08:02In the Cold War, freedom won against dictatorship.
08:05And this was, of course, due to deterrence.
08:09And deterrence is what is needed.
08:11Deterrence will also save us.
08:12And deterrence is only possible if we can take care of ourselves.
08:15And the security sector and industries is not isolated from other sectors.
08:20We have to understand Europe, and I really care for Europe's prosperity,
08:23for jobs on our continent and for the future of the generations ahead.
08:28Europe became a continent of consumption.
08:30We have been consuming over decades innovation from America,
08:34production from China and other parts of Asia,
08:37also innovation from China in the meantime.
08:40So we need innovation on European soil.
08:42We also need production on European soil.
08:44And when you talk about the automotive sector,
08:46there are not many sectors as much connected to the security sector as this one.
08:50So security and economy has to be taken serious.
08:55That's why I'm also saying let's put first things first.
08:58This must be the priority.
08:59But I guess the threat assessment is different in the Baltics and in Portugal, right?
09:06So I'm coming back to Putin here.
09:08Shall we take him seriously?
09:09Shall we fear him?
09:10Is this whole buildup a response to Russian assertiveness and aggression?
09:16I think we invoke the Russian aggression in Ukraine to justify programs that existed before.
09:22Let's not forget that, for example, the European Defense Fund was started before the current war in Ukraine.
09:27So there is, of course, you know,
09:28I mean, the Defense Fund was so important for Europe to be started ahead of the Russian attack.
09:34But the quantity is so important.
09:36The connection is so important.
09:38You should not underestimate our need.
09:40Let me get back.
09:41First of all, with these things, we're putting a lot of money, extra money, you know, by saying Russia is
09:47going.
09:47There's a contradiction in European mainstream discourse,
09:50which is saying at the same time that Russia is extremely weak, is losing in Ukraine,
09:55and we might be able to free Ukraine from Russian occupation militarily.
09:59And then you have these images of the Red Square in Moscow where there's no parade.
10:03And on the other hand, the fact that Putin would be able to conquer the whole of Europe.
10:08You know, these are two things that are obviously incompatible right now at the same moment.
10:12But we don't want to find out.
10:13What we don't want to find out is right now what, for example, a desperate Russia would do, right?
10:19Could it be more desperate than it already is?
10:21Sorry?
10:21I mean, do you see any reliability or predictability in Putin's regime?
10:27There is already total desperation, so we have to be able to defend ourselves.
10:32I agree with the commission's president who has stated we have to keep our hand reached out to the other
10:38Russia.
10:38I'm absolutely aware of that, that after Putin's regime, we have to give Russia the chance to become a democratic
10:46rule of law.
10:47We need to have diplomacy right now.
10:48We need to do diplomacy right now.
10:50And this is the disaster, the disaster of this European Union.
10:53We have forgotten what diplomacy is.
10:56Talk to other people.
10:57And diplomacy doesn't mean going having a drink with a friend.
11:01Diplomacy is talking to the opponent, to the adversary, to the enemy.
11:05This is to de-escalate and to limit conflict.
11:09And most countries in the world have tried this, and the European Union has refused.
11:12Now, I see Angela Merkel, you know, who got the Order of Merit.
11:15I see Alexander stop saying we need to do that.
11:17Right, with a lot of names floating around.
11:19We'll come back to this later, but I want to stop you here, as we're just getting warmed up, as
11:24you can see.
11:29Now it's time for our viewers to get a real flavor of the European Parliament chamber,
11:33where members ask each other questions.
11:36And sometimes it can get heated.
11:38So let's get started.
11:40Lukas Madl, I'm going to ask you to ask the first question to Mark.
11:45Well, Mark Potenga, as a colleague in the European Parliament,
11:48how can we make sure that we establish more freedom for the Europeans to the inside and more strength to
11:54the outside?
11:55This is the overall issue of our time.
11:57I would say Europe needs more strength for its civilization, for its reliability,
12:01the diplomatic approach that you obviously do not see from the European side,
12:06while Europe is the strongest diplomatic power, given the geopolitical situation today.
12:11So how can we create more strength to the outside?
12:13And how can we establish more freedom to the inside for our citizens?
12:16I think that's a very interesting question coming from the center-right,
12:20who's governing in many governments in Europe,
12:22and who's basically limiting the right to protest,
12:25who's limiting the right to strike,
12:27who's limiting basically fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:31And so I would say, first thing,
12:33please tell the governments of your political group,
12:36of your political party,
12:37to stop limiting the fundamental freedoms of Europeans.
12:41And secondly, towards the outside,
12:43I need, we need, I think, to rebuild European credibility.
12:48And how do we do that?
12:49We do that by stopping the double standards,
12:51by no longer saying international law is important for us in Ukraine,
12:56but in Palestine we don't care.
12:57International law is important when Russia or Putin violates it,
13:01but we don't care when Trump violates international law.
13:04Because if you have these double standards,
13:07never, ever will other countries take you seriously,
13:09and never, ever will you be a decent player on the international scale.
13:14Okay, on this, I think you want to follow up.
13:17I mean, there is so much to be said.
13:20I think it was now the fourth or fifth conspiracy theory
13:23from Mr. Potenga in today's talk
13:24about freedom being limited in Europe.
13:27There is no part on this planet,
13:29no continent, no country where freedom is so much established
13:32and so much defended and strong as it is in Europe.
13:36Obviously, also that we have this debate today,
13:38also that extremists have all democratic rights in parliaments in Europe,
13:43including the very European parliament.
13:45All of this is about freedom.
13:47And then mixing things up doesn't make it better.
13:50Of course, when international law is violated,
13:53Europe is the strongest voice speaking about that.
13:55Europe stood strong against Trump's attempt,
13:58for example, when it comes to Greenland,
14:00and we succeeded in that area.
14:02Europe stood strong when it was not clear
14:05whether the terrorists will go that way
14:07or the other way from Trump's side.
14:09He put us in a limbo again,
14:11but we didn't follow this pathway of a limbo.
14:13We didn't enter this political battlefield of Trump.
14:15We stood strong and we managed to succeed more
14:20when it comes to the geopolitical tensions
14:22given than other parts of the world.
14:25But, of course, we need more strength to the outside,
14:27especially in that field you are doubting,
14:29in the field of our own security,
14:31and being able to take care of it.
14:33Marc Maggiac, you want to react?
14:34And then your question to Lucas Mandel.
14:36Well, I think it's interesting
14:37because very often the EPP and central parties,
14:41when they don't have an answer,
14:41they say this is a conspiracy theory.
14:43What we see in many countries,
14:44like in Germany now there's a debate even on saying
14:47we can't use the watermelon anymore
14:48as a political symbol because it would be anti-Semitic.
14:51This is what we are seeing.
14:52We're seeing this also with action against trade unions
14:55in different countries.
14:56So we see that there's a democratic backsliding,
14:58which human rights organizations are pointing out in Europe.
15:01You know, it's not some kind of left conspiracy to say that.
15:04But you don't want to see it
15:05because it's your governments doing it.
15:07Secondly, what I indeed want to ask now,
15:10and I think that's a thing,
15:12you say that Europe stands up for international law
15:17and you quote Greenland.
15:19Europe didn't stand up for international law in Greenland.
15:22It stood up for its own territorial integrity.
15:25That is something very different
15:27because when we had to stand up for international law,
15:30the illegal war on Iran,
15:32you supported it yourself.
15:33When it is about denouncing the illegal occupation of Lebanon by Israel,
15:37you support it.
15:38When the International Court of Justice
15:40says that we should sanction Israel
15:42as third parties, we have a responsibility,
15:44you refuse it.
15:45So basically, when, you know,
15:47the Venezuelan president,
15:48whatever we think of him,
15:49is kidnapped illegally
15:51and the world globally condemns this,
15:53saying this is just absolutely not how we deal with,
15:56how would I say,
15:57with international relations
15:58and this is a violation of the UN Charter,
16:00you support it.
16:01So this is the issue.
16:02These double standards,
16:04it's not Europe that has double standards,
16:06you know,
16:06it is you,
16:07it is the governing coalition of Europe
16:09that has these double standards.
16:10Look,
16:11who is dealing with international law,
16:13who is in the lead of preserving it
16:16and observing it
16:17as the United Nations?
16:18We had yesterday night
16:19in the European Parliament's plenary
16:20a debate on the United Nations
16:22necessary reform.
16:24United Nations have to be reformed
16:26for obvious reasons
16:27and if you are telling now
16:30that the war on the Iranian regime
16:33was wrong,
16:35I say,
16:35yeah,
16:35it was amateurishly done
16:37by the United States
16:38while the decapitation
16:40of the Mueller regime's leaders
16:42worked very well.
16:43But the war obviously was wrong
16:46because it didn't work out well.
16:48The Mueller regime is still in place.
16:49I have been sanctioned myself
16:50by the Mueller regime since 2023.
16:52So I know what I'm talking about
16:54when I say
16:55women are suppressed in Iran.
16:57Iran is threatening the whole world,
16:59not only the region.
17:00And of course,
17:02to threaten our only partner country
17:04in the region,
17:05the only democracy,
17:06the only rule of law-based state
17:07in the region,
17:08Israel,
17:09is part of the conspiracy theories
17:11of your political side.
17:12And this is a sign of freedom in Europe
17:14that you can speak freely about that
17:15even if it's a very much
17:19in minority being opinion.
17:22But you are allowed to say that
17:24and there are no many parts on Earth
17:26where you can do that.
17:27And last point on Greenland.
17:28I mean,
17:29when international law is violated,
17:30it doesn't matter
17:30whether it's Europe's interest
17:31or the US's interest.
17:32We care for international law.
17:34We even want to save international law
17:36during these geopolitical times
17:37of tensions.
17:39And that means that we have to
17:41reform the United Nations.
17:42Okay.
17:42Thank you for a great debate so far.
17:45We've heard your views.
17:47Now it's time to hear from a new voice.
17:54And for our quote of the week,
17:56I would like to bring in
17:57Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.
17:59In a letter addressed
18:01to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen,
18:03she said this.
18:04We cannot justify to our citizens
18:07that the EU allows financial flexibility
18:10to be used for security and defense purposes
18:13in the strictest sense,
18:15but not to protect families, workers,
18:17and enterprises from a new energy crisis
18:19that threatens to severely impact
18:22the real economy.
18:25Your take on this, Mark.
18:27Well, two things.
18:28First, she's walked back to on her statement.
18:29Secondly, it's terribly hypocritical
18:32because the fact that we now have,
18:34again, these horrible austerity rules
18:37was approved by her government.
18:39So first, and this is fantastic,
18:40first, the far right approves this,
18:42or the center right,
18:43whatever you want to call her,
18:45approves these rules,
18:46and then they say,
18:46ah, it's not fair.
18:47So this is, you know, pure populism.
18:50But what is true
18:51is that Europe today says
18:53there's no money
18:54for your hospitals,
18:55for your pensions,
18:56for your schools,
18:57but miraculously,
18:59we find hundreds of billions
19:00for the defense multinationals.
19:02You know, this contradiction is real.
19:04And so, indeed,
19:05we do not need
19:06these austerity rules anymore.
19:07And once again,
19:08they've been imposed
19:09by the mainstream parties,
19:10including Giorgia Meloni's.
19:12Okay.
19:12Lucas Mandel, your reaction?
19:14Yeah, this is part
19:14of the extremist populist approach.
19:16I think also the consumers,
19:18viewers of this program
19:18should see that
19:20there's no contradiction
19:21between producing something
19:22on European soil
19:23instead from buying it
19:25from outside
19:26and having hospitals
19:27and schools and streets
19:29because the one thing
19:31is connected with the other.
19:32If we have strong prosperity,
19:34if we have growth,
19:34finally, in Europe again,
19:36we will also be able
19:37to afford the social welfare states.
19:38We have established generations
19:39before us have established in Europe
19:41and we will have schools and roads.
19:43All right.
19:43We're going to continue the conversation,
19:45but now I'll have to take a break
19:47here on The Ring.
19:48We'll be back with more
19:49after this.
19:50Stay with us.
20:00Welcome back to The Ring,
20:01Euronews' weekly debate show.
20:03I'm Stefan Gorbe
20:04and I'm joined by Lucas Mandel
20:06from the European People's Party
20:07from Austria
20:08and Mark Bottenga
20:09from the left group
20:10from Belgium.
20:12At this point,
20:13let's take a look
20:13at the transatlantic partnership
20:15regarding defense.
20:17Trump wants to weaken
20:19the NATO alliance
20:20and seems increasingly
20:21noncommittal
20:21to common defense.
20:23But the military business
20:24is showing a different picture.
20:26So here are some numbers
20:27from the Stockholm
20:28International Peace Research Institute.
20:31According to that institute,
20:3364% of European NATO weapons imports
20:35come from the United States.
20:38And European arms imports
20:40rose by more than 150%
20:42between 2020 and 2024
20:44compared to the previous period.
20:47U.S. arms exports
20:48to Europe increased
20:49by more than 200%
20:51in the same period.
20:52So Europe is now
20:54the world's largest
20:56arms important region.
20:59Lucas Mandel,
21:00hearing these numbers,
21:01your comments.
21:02I mean,
21:03we had a time
21:03of many good beginnings
21:04since the beginning
21:06of Putin-Russia's war.
21:07But spending
21:07is not everything.
21:08I've emphasized that before.
21:10It's about where to spend.
21:12It's about the connection
21:14between the armed forces
21:15of the member states
21:16and also the understanding
21:18of the various different threats.
21:19Now we see the situation
21:20that the United States
21:21are obviously willing
21:24to reduce their number
21:26of troops
21:26on European soil.
21:27I think that's not only
21:29a development
21:30due to the given
21:32current U.S. administration
21:33under Trump.
21:34It was generally something
21:35that had to be expected
21:37over decades.
21:38And a mature Europe
21:40will anyway be able
21:41to take care of itself.
21:42But I do not want
21:43to have confrontation
21:44with other parts of the world.
21:45I want cooperation,
21:46but on the basis
21:46of European strength.
21:47Okay.
21:49How can we be
21:50strategically independent
21:51by buying American weapons?
21:53Oh, we cannot.
21:54Let's be very clear.
21:54If you buy, for example,
21:55I mentioned the F-35 fighters
21:57just before.
21:58Making a little bit
21:59of a cartoon out of it,
22:00you could say
22:01that with one push
22:02of the button,
22:03Trump can deactivate them.
22:04So if it were to,
22:05I don't know,
22:06defend Greenland,
22:07they would be
22:07completely useless.
22:09We do need to think
22:11how you create
22:12this autonomy.
22:13This you can do
22:13in different ways.
22:14One of the ways
22:15I would suggest
22:16is to say we need
22:17to diversify partnerships.
22:18So this idea of
22:19we are locking ourselves up
22:22in this kind of
22:24submissive attitude
22:25towards Trump.
22:26We've seen it as well
22:26with the trade deal
22:27and the EU-US trade deal
22:28where we accept
22:30to give tariff-free access
22:32to the European market
22:33for many, many goods
22:34from the US.
22:35But ourselves,
22:36we see that we impose...
22:38What do you mean
22:38by diversifying?
22:39Is it buying from Brazil
22:40or India?
22:40Yeah, for example.
22:41I mean,
22:42you have your own industry,
22:43obviously.
22:43You produce what you want.
22:45In the first place,
22:45we have to produce ourselves.
22:47But secondly,
22:47no, no,
22:48but we produce ourselves.
22:50That's not...
22:50I mean,
22:51because you said before
22:52that we do not produce
22:53any more,
22:55first of all,
22:55this deindustrialization,
22:56which is true
22:57and which is real,
22:58is not a gift from God.
23:01This is a consequence
23:02of policies
23:03that have been waged
23:04on this continent
23:05by your group.
23:07So let's not pretend
23:08this comes from nowhere.
23:09Workers throughout Europe
23:10have seen their jobs
23:11disappear in industry
23:13because of the policies,
23:15the market-driven policies
23:16your group has imposed
23:17on this continent.
23:18I agree with the point
23:19that Europe
23:20has its own responsibility
23:21here,
23:21but it clearly came
23:22from ideological left sources
23:24that we had this policies.
23:25But you were the one
23:26governing it.
23:27This was a market approach.
23:28How can you say
23:29the left is responsible?
23:31But this makes no sense.
23:33We have better maturities
23:34in the European Parliament
23:34since the last election.
23:35I'm ready to have
23:36a debate of ideas.
23:37I'm ready to have
23:38a debate of ideas,
23:39but you cannot say
23:40that it has been
23:41the left pushing
23:42for liberalization,
23:44that it has been
23:45the left pushing
23:46for privatization,
23:49for the sellout
23:49of our industries.
23:50This is just not true.
23:51This is center right.
23:52This is center right.
23:53But this makes no sense.
23:55I mean,
23:55let's have an honest debate
23:57on ideas.
23:58And killing jobs.
23:59Let's have an honest
24:00debate on ideas.
24:01It's been the center right,
24:03sometimes with social democrats
24:04in the coalition,
24:05that has sold off
24:06our industries
24:07and that has privatized,
24:08liberalized our markets,
24:09and this would create,
24:11I don't know
24:11what kind of Eldorado.
24:13The reality today
24:14is what?
24:16Deindustrialization
24:16and a lot of issues
24:18for European industry.
24:19We need more freedom.
24:21You have refused
24:21to invest sufficiently
24:23in public energy infrastructure
24:25and today our industries
24:26are being chased away
24:27by the fact
24:28that the energy prices
24:29are too high.
24:30And still today
24:30you're sabotaging
24:31the cheapest energy
24:32that would be green energy,
24:34keeping us dependent
24:35on fossil fuels
24:36from I don't know
24:36what countries.
24:37All right.
24:38We'll come back to this
24:39and now it's the time
24:41to move on
24:41to our fifth
24:42and final round.
24:47And we want to do
24:48something different now.
24:49I'm going to ask you
24:50a set of questions
24:51and you can only answer
24:52with a yes or no.
24:54Okay.
24:55Lucas,
24:55I'll start with you.
24:56Should there be
24:57a common European army?
24:59On the long run,
25:00yes.
25:01No, not now.
25:02No.
25:04Can Europe realistically
25:05build credible
25:06military autonomy
25:07without duplicating
25:09NATO structures?
25:10It's a long debate.
25:12I just want to say
25:13yes,
25:13if that's the question,
25:15yes, we can.
25:15I think we should work
25:16on a common security
25:17architecture in Europe.
25:19Okay.
25:20No, we can't.
25:21We have to do it
25:22within NATO.
25:23We have to reform NATO
25:24such as UN also.
25:26And of course
25:27it will be within NATO
25:28because
25:29to have redundancies
25:31is the worst thing
25:32we can do
25:32with taxpayers' money
25:33and also with our security.
25:34Okay.
25:35Will NATO outlive
25:36Donald Trump?
25:38Absolutely.
25:39I hope not.
25:40You hope not?
25:41Yes.
25:42I mean,
25:42I think NATO today,
25:44you know,
25:44NATO is something
25:45that comes from
25:46the Cold War.
25:46It had a sense
25:47at the time,
25:47the Warsaw Pact
25:48against NATO.
25:51Today,
25:51we need a common
25:52European security
25:53architecture.
25:54NATO is something
25:54from the past
25:55and Donald Trump
25:56is the living
25:56illustration of this.
25:58Interesting.
25:59And finally,
26:00was there anything
26:01over the last
26:02half hour
26:03that you think
26:05your opponent
26:07said that
26:08you can agree with?
26:09I can't say that.
26:11Only maybe
26:11that European
26:12economic trouble
26:13is also based
26:14on our own
26:15European responsibility
26:16from the past,
26:17but I wouldn't
26:19direct that
26:20to the very
26:22center of politics.
26:23It was the extremists
26:24who were stronger
26:24over decades.
26:25Now we have
26:25better majorities
26:26in the European Parliament.
26:27Now we lift
26:28burden from
26:29our businesses.
26:30So maybe
26:31we agree on that.
26:32And I'm very happy
26:33to be European
26:33seeing that
26:34somebody from
26:35the far extremists
26:37in that case
26:38to the left,
26:38the ones to the right
26:39are allowed to speak
26:41freely and there are
26:42not many parts
26:42of the world
26:43where this is possible.
26:44Any agreements
26:45with Lucas Mullen?
26:46Well, definitely
26:46not with this part.
26:47I mean,
26:47the far right
26:47has never been
26:48stronger in this
26:49parliament than you
26:49say that normal
26:50parties are stronger.
26:51That's very weird.
26:52One point I think
26:53I agree on
26:54is the fact
26:55that the issue
26:56with, let's say,
26:58defense and security
26:59is not a matter
27:01of more money.
27:02It's a matter
27:02of more cooperation.
27:03You know,
27:04and this I think
27:05he said,
27:05but this kind of
27:06contradicts the position
27:07of saying we need
27:08more money for defense.
27:09But I agree on this part.
27:10We need more cooperation
27:11and more coordination.
27:13Wonderful.
27:14And that final answer
27:15brings us to the end
27:16of this edition
27:17of The Ring.
27:18Thanks again to
27:19Mark Buttenga
27:19and Lukas Mandl
27:21for a lively conversation
27:22here from the
27:22European Parliament.
27:23Thanks to our audience
27:24at home.
27:25If you like,
27:26you can continue
27:26the conversation
27:27by sending us
27:28your comments
27:29to thering
27:30at euronews.com.
27:32We'd love to have
27:33your feedback.
27:34That's it for today.
27:36I'm Stefan Grobe.
27:37Take care
27:37and see you soon
27:38on Euronews.
27:49Euronews.
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